[U21 Megathread] Weapon Changes Feedback

[Xolgys]

On 29.6.2017 at 5:11 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

*Opening Post* ...deleted it no need for another uber long quote

 

rivens are supposed to be balanced independantly. as i take it riven scaling is another stat on a weapon. lets say a weapon sux without a riven and is not rly sortie viable for instance but has 1.51 riven scaling so u can make it good by playing until u roll a very good riven. ofc popularity is a thing as menitoned but u need to be rly careful. if u buff a weapon then u can not simply nerf the riven scaling because u buffed the weapon...thats kind of controverse because then u undo part of the weapons strenght. late game if u like a weapon or want to play it much u opt for at least a decent riven imo so they should be considered when u buff a weapon. the example here being pyrana. u nerfed the riven scaling WITHOUT EVEN MENTIONING IT (which is rly uncool to say the least) but u didnt even straight up buff it to counteract this.

pyrana now has the issue of shotguns concerning status chance and dmg falloff which is a clear nerf in total and considering it has slash as its highest dmg type its questionable if the stats increases are actually outvaluing the -20% riven scaling. not everyone has a riven surely but still those who have or are rolling one might wonder if its actually a buff or just moving sandbags from one overflowing river to another but no matter where u put them u will still drown.

if u buff a weapon to make it more popular u need to still keep riven scalings where they are because right now riven scaling is kind of considered as a stat in itself, at least thats my impression. like: "this weapon sux by default BUT i will invest time in it because it has rly good riven scaling" pyrana doesnt suck by default in a literal sense but such weapons like pyrana are nice now because they are not broken as shizzle by default but can reach a really strong point with a riven (depending on the roll ofc). and then u buff the base stats and nerf riven scaling. i dont see the logic in there and again...thats not even asking why u didnt even mention it. ppl invest much time (and plat maybe) in rivens and even though u said rivens will be changed (eventually) scaling/disposition wise u still should respect what ppl have invested. its like saving money for a porsche and then when u start driving suddenly it drops to a 120km/h tops with the computer voice telling u "nope sorry, u have too much now, slow down mate" even though u worked ur holy bottom backside off for it.

this is not supposed to be a rant, absolutely not, but i rly miss the logic in these changes. i cant rly call it buffs for the shotgun secondaries especially when u increase spread/recoil on something like the twin kohmak whilst increasing fire rate....if u increase fire rate it automatically also loses accuracy on full auto but when u do increase recoil and spread stats directly too its double the pain actually.

rivens are a thing...consider it please before u buff weapons instead of devaluing the efforts and time/plat ppl have invested in a riven for a weapon they rly want to see strong. u should rather be a bit slower on the buffs like u just did with opticor. it still has its problem of fire rate and reload even though u buffed charge speed but u didnt totally overdo in one step. admitedly with a very good riven this thing is a real aoe monster now but for a weapon of this type it has to...its by design looking epic but underperformed until now. imagine u nerfed the riven dispo now...u shouldnt have bothered buffing it then in the first place because everony who seriously wants to play it will surely get a riven sooner or later so...

please dont just buff a weapons base stats to nerf the riven scaling then and even if u rly overbuff the base stats of the weapon notify us about the nerf of the scaling and by how much. besides...u didnt overbuff any weapon here to justify a riven dispo nerf for them in my opinion. maybe sicarus prime but considering u buffed all the other single handed secondary primes i would call that one borderline.

other than that i find buffs of this type very refreshing and much needed for many weapons because some are not rly on the strong side even with a very good riven. keep this up, just try to improve some aspects even though its always opinion and we know how opinions are...everyone has one of its own.

 

greetings

Ps: i dont play every single weapon but id like to use this opportunity and suggest MIRE, EMBOLIST, phage and generally the cont. beam/stream weapons, acrid, TYSIS to be improved/buffed. these are at least the ones where i can more or less savely say that they are weak in my opinion, even with a very good riven. they are still so bad even with such a riven i endoed/sold the rivens...thats usually not a good sign for the weapons strenght in my opinion.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Xydeth

[PriesaFire]

Ph

3 hours ago, Xydeth said:

Ps: i dont play every single weapon but id like to use this opportunity and suggest MIRE, EMBOLIST, phage and generally the cont. beam/stream weapons, acrid, TYSIS to be improved/buffed. these are at least the ones where i can more or less savely say that they are weak in my opinion, even with a very good riven. they are still so bad even with such a riven i endoed/sold the rivens...thats usually not a good sign for the weapons strenght in my opinion.

Speaking of Phage, please please change the way it's beam works. There are 2 problems with the current Phage: the graphical way how Phage shoot, and the mechanic behind beam weapons. For now, I would like to focus on the way how Phage beam is shooting (with link to image)

---

1a) This is when Phage is shooting without zooming in

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FR8OFnyK3xNlg3Q1Rac2dnYm8/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FR8OFnyK3xZ1pkWWlDLVpyRWM/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FR8OFnyK3xNE9pZnY5bG9EYlE/view?usp=sharing

1b) This is when Phage is shooting with max zoom in

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FR8OFnyK3xUUllb0ZMMU9IdUk/view?usp=sharing

 

At start, the 6 beam heads are closed while shooting. After reload, the beam heads will permanently open up, and the beams shoot in a spiral direction. Note that the contact point of the beams and the wall are the same. 

 

2a) This is when Phage is shooting without zooming in (multiple views)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FR8OFnyK3xOVowSE9YQzQ4dDQ/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FR8OFnyK3xTURsMVVySURheHM/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FR8OFnyK3xWjNUekNIWk81djg/view?usp=sharing

2b) This is when Phage is shooting with max zoom in

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FR8OFnyK3xVjJDeF9HOGdVbmM/view?usp=sharing

---

(This is my own opinion)

The Phage is a beam shotgun with adjustable spread size, which means it can be used for both crowd control and single target with pinpoint accuracy. However, the beams in 2a looks really slanted to the right from the user's view, making it hard to aim with pinpoint accuracy because the beams are so confusing to see, unlike in 1a. Not only that, it makes the beams look unnatural, unsightly, and is not what fashion frame is about.

In comparison, when shooting with max zoom (closed spread,) I prefer 2b over 1b. This is because it allows the Phage to have a bit more contact area, making it easier to hit target, and feels like a never ending Opticor ray of death.

 

In conclusion, is there a way to combine both 1a and 2b for the Phage? That way, it will make Phage more usable, even without any buff / changes to beam mechanics.

For example, instead of a confusing cluster of spiraling beams, how about simplify them to straight shooting beams? (the images are captured right after Phage stop shooting)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FR8OFnyK3xTlhKeENadVhNR0k/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FR8OFnyK3xbjRnYVZWRGR0d2c/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FR8OFnyK3xUlozQ1hmcEdPUzQ/view?usp=sharing

 

Please make it happens! Phage needs more love! After all, who doesn't want to own a good tentacle gun?

[Azamagon]

@PriesaFire

Speaking of the Phage, what do you think about making Altfire be the way to alter its spread?
My idea was: Press and hold altfire to make it adjust inwards, release when you have set the spread where you want it to be. Next time you press and hold, it will adjust outwards, and once again, release to stop adjusting it. And back and forth and back and forth, so it shifts to be inwards or outwards spread adjustment, every time you repress it.

Alternatively, aim could make it adjust inwards, while altfire adjusts it outwards (hold both aim and altfire to keep it at its current spread while aiming).

And the spread will be memorized! No need to readjust every time you stop shooting, or reload etc.

What do you think?

[PriesaFire]

@Azamagon

 

 

7 hours ago, Azamagon said:

@PriesaFire

Speaking of the Phage, what do you think about making Altfire be the way to alter its spread?
My idea was: Press and hold altfire to make it adjust inwards, release when you have set the spread where you want it to be. Next time you press and hold, it will adjust outwards, and once again, release to stop adjusting it. And back and forth and back and forth, so it shifts to be inwards or outwards spread adjustment, every time you repress it.

Alternatively, aim could make it adjust inwards, while altfire adjusts it outwards (hold both aim and altfire to keep it at its current spread while aiming).

And the spread will be memorized! No need to readjust every time you stop shooting, or reload etc.

What do you think?

In other word, the spread size must be memorized for your idea to work, or else; I have tested your idea in captura, with my imagination, and it works fine. 

the spread will be memorized: I love this idea, but if it can't be done, your idea is obsolete.

making Altfire be the way to alter its spread: (users will be shooting when pressing alt fire, or else it will be hard to know how much to adjust) if alt fire works as intended, RMB does nothing for Phage even if you are using Laser Sight, considering how low crit chance the Phage is. How then, can we make RMB worth using?

altfire adjusts it outwards: Only if DE can make Phage memorize the spread size, will this idea work. Which gives me an idea. Another way to use alt fire is to immediately shoot at max zoom (single target, clustered beam). That way users can press LMB to shoot + RMB to adjust spread size like normally, or press alt fire to shoot like an Opticor instead.

Therefore, I'd want DE to just change the way the beams graphically work for now, not the Phage's play style... yet. I mean, you could do so many things with tentacles.

 

Here is versatility in action. Please make Phage worth using, if not in dealing damage, then at least in the way Phage is used.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FR8OFnyK3xcVczeDdVblpPaTA/view?usp=sharing (spread size at it's normal state)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FR8OFnyK3xaDJsZW0wTUU3Y3c/view?usp=sharing (spread size adjusted to fit staircase)

 

[machasbeans]

There are still issues with how the Mara Detron is taking status chance increases.

 

[Djego27]

Well it feels exactly like the shotgun changes that ignored most of the existing issues in favour of "big dps" and nerfed our actually fairly balanced status shotguns into pointless guns(that now have strong rivens).

As for shotgun secondary weapons.

Bronkos

The main problem of the bronko series is the bad usability(what might have been fine for the game they were designed for, but not really for the current warframe) and in case of the primes the lack of status.

Bronko

They literally build for another game with a lot less stuff on screen. Why not 140 damage with 4 rounds? This would be much more useful for newer players, since seeing the reload animation more then you actually shoot is not really useful.

AkBonko

8 rounds with 1.7s reload, status should be 30% and damage lowered to 112(-20% to the bronko).

Bronko prime.

Bring down the damage to 210(mara detron level) and change the status to 30%. Otherwise it is fine(a bit more status heavy Brakk in exchange of damage).

AkBonko Prime

Damage should be 157(-30% to the bronko prime), 8 rounds, 1.7s reload with a status chance of 40%. There is no real point of having massive damage on a status weapon(yes this counts for the Tigris prime and akstilleto prime as well...), fixing the utility problems(mag size and reload) combined with a proper status chance for a status shotgun makes it a very good alternative to the other secondary shotguns in specific situations(mostly against armor). The main power of it comes form status, that does not need high damage to go with it, similar as the boar prime is a very good weapon against high level armor(with a riven that fixes status since the shotgun buff...), while not outclassing other weapons in the same class for other applications.

Others

Brakk

Brakk was always the main choice for pure raw damage. While I never used it, since the old mara detron was more effective in combination with other status weapons even with the much lower damage, there is no point in less damage and less range over the detrons(that are better because of her status mechanics as elemental weapons as well as radiations procs that are more useful than pellet based slash procs later on). The Brakk should have 240 ish damage(with reductions to the detrons) to fill the role as damage choice.

Detron

Why does the elemental damage weapon more damage then the brakk? Radiation is nearly always better at higher levels(disables auras effective against the heaviest armored targets), being elemental makes it more reliable for status procs and has the better range on top of it?

The Detron should be somewhat under the Brakk(lets say 20% what puts it to 198, or 200 for more round numbers) for that advantages.

Mara Detron

This is most likely my most used secondary(even my preferred choice for secondary only sorti, even if all things considered the Staticor was better and still is, however that has more to do with the broken status mechanic and unlimited ammo on it, rather the the the mara detron being bad) and I did manage to beat a aklex prime on another Ember with it in a secondary only sorti(L80 corpus, interception 500 vs 600 ish kills).

Place it 20% under the normal detron(158 base damage) in damage for the extra rounds and higher rate of fire, if you want to be generous add 5% status, even if the extra 10% really buffed it a metric ton already.

Kohmak

Why mastery rank 10?  The kohmak was a good alternative for new people that did not like the click spam of the other shotgun pistols and the constant reload of the Pyrana. It would probably a lot more attractive at MR4 or 5 and if you are at that replace the D with a V polarity.

Twin Kohmak

The bigger spread and recoil kind of counterbalance the damage buff. You might consider to tune spread and recoil to the old 5 round per second value for the new fire rate.

Damage falloff should be universal about 25-40% bigger given the big spread of the shotgun secondary weapons given that the damage loss at range by spread is already very high compared to Tigris and Hek. 

I did not really use the Pyrana much before the changes so I can not really argue about it.

 

[Eljureo]

Overall buffs to secondaries are really welcome.

The small issue I see is primaries are now less balanced than secondaries.

Can be fixed naturally.

Grinlock for example, so poor. It does same damage per shot as Akstilleto, a bullet hose secondary.

I was shocked by that at first...

[(PSN)salovel1991]

I Will we ever see a Tiberon buff? This weapon needs love so badly. Without a riven it can kill level 50 but you need Heavy Cal, Split Chamber, appropriate elements, and a maxed Serration. I understand not all weapons can be godly but 5 forma and a riven for level 50-60 enemies is a bit harsh. It falls off fast with only raw damage as a burst weapon. 5% crit and 5% status just hurts this so much. I want to love Tiberon again. 

[Ryim_Drykeon]

@[DE]Danielle

Blind Justice stance for Nikana's has been broken for a while now. If you have this stance equipped, then equip your melee in hand, then wall-latch, you will be unable to attack with a melee attack (both E for fast attack and LMB do not work) until you switch weapons. Not sure exactly when this started. Just noticed it at the start of CoH. Sorry for taking so long to post here. I'm forum challenged and didn't put it in the right place, heh.

Note: I've tested on several Frames with same result. Also, took all mods off both Nikana and Nikana Prime and replaced one at a time to narrow down the mod having the issue. Definitely Blind Justice causing this issue.