Rework Limbos first Ability!

[(XBOX)DerUnbekannteLP]

Hey, it is very disgusting that Limbo can push also allied PLAYERS out of his existence layer... I can only wait AND CAN'T DO ANYTHING until it is over and then I'm again out of the existence. Because Limbo players spaming mostly this ability! Pease DE rework it that Limbo can't affect his allies with this bullS#&$! I play for fun not for being stopped in my fights and get trolled every time.

 

In case to hear the thoughts from others... I wait for comments.

[PsiWarp]

Inb4 "You can roll".

The way how Banish is applied to teammates sucks for them. You have no control over when and where it happens, it's up to Limbo to suddenly force you into the Rift (or out of it if he feels like it).

Banish isn't single target anymore, it's now a massive cone AoE in front of Limbo that indiscriminately affects ally and enemy. On the other hand, Limbo players don't get the luxury of a simple button press to selectively Banish enemies, they have to work around it with Rift Walk, Rift Surge and Cataclysm.

But why be bothered with doing combos when you can let teammates roll out themselves, amirite? It's a matter of working with clunky mechanics and expectation of player courtesy.

[Tizodd]

Limbo still needs more work.

I hate the fact that Limbo can basically control the way others play the game:

• if you get Banished, you have to realize you're Banished (usually after attacking an enemy and realizing you're doing no damage), then roll out of it;
• if Limbo decides to cast Cataclysm and Stasis where you are, your projectiles are frozen until the projectile cap is reached (sucks for shotgun/sniper users) or until Limbo decides to end Cataclysm/Stasis;
• then there's the issue of Rift Surge: enemies get thrown into the Rift with Rift Surge, and no one can do anything to them until Limbo decides to throw a Cataclysm or Banish on them, or until the duration ends.

I don't know how to fix him, but currently he's top of the troll list right next to the Loki who randomly Switch Teleports people.

edit: On the topic of fixing Limbo...maybe making his abilities only affect Limbo would do the trick?:

• Banish: can no longer be casted on other players.  Other players can still enter the Rift through the portal Limbo leaves when he dashes;
• Stasis: no longer affects group member projectiles (enemies take damage as normal and are essentially just frozen like they were hit with Frost's Avalanche).  Maybe place a damage cap on the ability (similar to Volt's Discharge) that will end it early to keep it from being too strong of a hard CC;
• Rift Surge: revert it back to a damage buffing ability for Limbo, and possibly for teammates in the Rift;
• Cataclysm: can remain the same.  The changes to Stasis and Rift Surge should keep Cataclysm from being too trolly.

Just spit-balling off the top of my head.  I haven't really put a ton of thought into how to fix Limbo, so maybe I missed something.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Tizodd
added suggestions for fixing Limbo

[Koldraxon-732]

9 minutes ago, Tizodd said:

[Quotato]

Short version:

Spoiler

 

Limbo's powers are overly focused on The Rift and are lacking in utility beyond area select (Banish), pause (Stasis), zone (Cataclysm), and infect (Rift Surge), its' damage doesn't scale in any useful manner, and only his 2 and 4 have any real use beyond his 1 and 2 if 4 can't be cast, Nullifiers, or wrong location.

Beyond that, Limbo players don't inform everyone else about what they're going to do, so they don't rage, such as when a Cataclysm and Stasis is active. Lengthened version is in spoilers. I only use Limbo on Sorties when objectives have health bars and don't move (or move much, like the Operative, but the Hijack objective? Nidus it) like in Mobile Defense, since Frost's snowglobe is as useful as an unmodded Excalibur with unmodded starter weapons in the same enviornment.

Spoiler

 

The reason he's in the top troll list is because (most?) people who play Limbo don't bother warning others that they're using the 2 + 4 combo to immunize the objective (typically an inanimate objective like a Mobile Defense terminal, Defense Object, Interception Tower, or even enemies on the way to Extraction if, deities forbid, someone brings a default hp/shield frame focused on powers that won't work in Sorties).

I only bring out my Limbo when it's a Sortie that has Mobile Defense or Defense. I never use Rift Surge as personally even when using Limbo you can't tell who else got Rifted.

Then there's the people who use beam weapons or high-ammo weapons that disable the timefreeze, putting the objective at risk, and saying outright that Limbo is useless despite evidence that Limbo is superior to Frost if using 2 + 4 + inanimate objective since Frost's snowglobe lasts only 1 second against Sortie-level enemies.

But I can agree that Limbo's Banish should have something more noticable other than just the Rift background noise and the very slight shimmer on everything, and should be reverted to single-target cast rather than an AOE, indiscriminate 'Banishing Explosion'. 

As for Stasis, one way to fix it is have only Limbo's weapons be stuck in the timefreeze, but have the damage from your own only actually occur or 'activate' when Stasis - if not the bubble first - ends or is stopped even for a recast of a second. Enemies that go over their max ehp would become ragdolls/gibbed and become 'pre'dead.

His Rift Surge is, from my angle, entirely useless. It drags enemies into the rift that are outside Cataclysm - meaning you'll have to get out of that and dash back into the Rift - and can be less beneficial if energy draining Eximus get in, let alone Ancient Healers etc.

 

In summary: 

Limbo's power set, theme, and basic lore limit him extremely in his current configuration. Within these last spoilers are a few ideas I've got for replacement powers that go beyond and behind the Rift. 

Spoiler

Current powers:
 

Spoiler

 

Banish:

Spoiler

Dump things in an AOE into the Rift. Does no damage. Useful only to pause some enemies to let allies past if they don't run in and try to kill them like always - resulting in all the situations where allies complain about being stuck and unable to use throwables/guns in the Rift. Essentially, this power is a careless mop that makes enemies harmless in most scenarios where used properly. Combination with Stasis makes enemies inanimate, opening them to death by hoarded Zarr rounds, Ogris explosives, or other means of faction-wide genocide.

Stasis:

Spoiler

Pause enemies and projectiles in the Rift. Does not improve damage. Adds a 'did I miss?' variable. Useful in some cases, but definitely a drawback in others, especially in the wrong missions like Assassinations if the boss is immune to Limbo's powers or Survival in some cases. This power also doesn't amplify damage or have any other purpose. Doesn't even stop detection systems from detecting Limbo (i.e: tripwire lasers on Corpus Data Vaults or Grineer Scanner Regulators). 

Rift Surge:

Spoiler

Auto-Banish enemies near enemies who were marked with this power. Very messy, and a waste of a power at best. At worst, it slows down missions. Useless.

Cataclysm:

Spoiler

Impervious, shrinking bubble of Rift-space best used to protect objectives. Paired with Stasis, can prevent enemies from harming the objective. Beyond that, it has very little utility and does virtually no damage.

Passive:
Rolling is Rift Walk and leaves a Rift portal behind for allies.

 

Desired changes:

Spoiler

 

Powers and Passive:

Spoiler

-Removal of Banish and Rift Surge.
-Attacking enemies while in the Rift (applies to allies aswell as soon as they enter his portal or exit his Cataclysm after changes are applied) will Banish them into the Rift, and vice-versa.
-Rift portal Banishing effect is bigger for enemies.
-Rifted/Banished targets are given a special Rift icon above them and have more noticable Rift fx.
-Multiple Limbos can only affect their own instances of the Rift (Stasis does not work for both individual Rifts) - a real problem I faced in a Sortie when I and someone else were Limbo and the other had Stasis on all the time, making the situation buggy and confusing.

Replacement for Banish: Ontological Calculation:

Spoiler

AOE ability. Enemies hit have their health/shields/armour are trimmed down by POWER_STR%. Outgoing damage is affected more by continued attacks, until they deal 1 damage per hit. Sentients cannot be affected by the latter effect. Has a short duration that lengthens with enemy outgoing attacks, but shortens when a DURATION% of their health/shields/armour is dealt back to them. After the duration expires, enemy damage dealt and health/shields/armour lost become damage applied to the enemy's health/shields/armour, permanently. Last and first do not affect bosses.

Replacement for Rift Surge: Predetermination:

Spoiler

Single-target ability with infectious properties. Initial target is disarmed and will immediately die if blinded, stunned, or put in Stasis. Nearby targets, should the initial target die, will Flee and have incoming damage amplified by a % of their total health/shields/armour, which is amplified even more for powers that deal damage (meaning low-power-damage frame like Chroma + Limbo = crowd control). 

 

 

Remember, Limbo's a mathematician. That's how he discovered and manipulates the Rift. This should open up his theme to other, geometrical/mathematical alternative powers.

[Waffenheimer]

or people can /gasp learn how limbo works.  so they realize what he does, and adapt to and take advantage of it.

 

frost can troll projectile users just as easily with bubble spam

 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

The issue isn't specifically Limbo's powers, which can work pretty well if used correctly. Unfortunately, it requires so much unnecessary work right now.. The issue is the Rift mechanics themselves that make it not team friendly, and those mechanics are inherent to all of his abilities.

I created a thread with possible adjustments that would make it more friendly. My idea didn't seem to take too well, but at least it might give others ideas to improve upon the Rift and get it out of it's current state.

 

[(PSN)varas2110]

To a limbo main this post has no new points, I've seen every single one of these arguments in some form or another always paraphrasing but staying the same, blah blah blah stasis is annoying, blah blah blah banish is unwieldy, blah blah blah cataclysm is disrupt full, etc etc, I can't say anything other I feel exactly the same as any other mainly because everyone is going to keep @(*()$ crying about it calling all limbos trash or trolls just because they banish them by accident or put down a bubble on a def point

Edited July 31, 2017 by (PS4)varas2110

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

3 hours ago, (PS4)varas2110 said:

 

Limbo is one of my mains as well, and I think he's an amazing frame. It doesn't change the fact that you have to constantly hold back with everything you do to make sure you don't screw up everyone else's game play. His powers are amazing. The Rift is too unforgiving to allies, however, for it to not be a hindrance in non-preformed teams without constant supervision from our favorite voidwalking space mage.

[(XBOX)DerUnbekannteLP]

On ‎31‎.‎07‎.‎2017 at 4:59 PM, (PS4)varas2110 said:

To a limbo main this post has no new points, I've seen every single one of these arguments in some form or another always paraphrasing but staying the same, blah blah blah stasis is annoying, blah blah blah banish is unwieldy, blah blah blah cataclysm is disrupt full, etc etc, I can't say anything other I feel exactly the same as any other mainly because everyone is going to keep @(*()$ crying about it calling all limbos trash or trolls just because they banish them by accident or put down a bubble on a def point

Oh sorry that I'm new in the Forums. You can see that at my post number... Btw. Limbo isn't just a good troll warframe sometimes, he can let crash the entire game because of lags while using stasis with to many projectiles which will be hold back from his ability.

To say "gid gud" in this context is like saying "you can quit the Lobby and give up all your rewards just to escape this problem". Sure, I didn't payed money for warframe like for a CoD or other AAA-Titles but I can expect that Developer have Control about their game and ban antisocial-behavior from their game. First step should be that Limbos Skills doesn't affect the weapons and abilities from other allied warframes.

[Sasquatchias]

This isn't a Limbo specific thing, there should be ways to be able to opt-out of ability interactions against other players for various frames as well, like Volt deciding everyone on the team needs to be permanently Speed-ed despite clearly seeing someone constantly back-flipping to get out of the @(*()$ effect but still spamming it every 4s anyway right next to the entire team or Loki deciding to be a #$&(% and constantly Switch Teleporting players just to be an annoying $&*^.

[Insizer]

Loki be swap teleporting and nobody bats an eye.  Limbo Banishes ally and nearby enemies (allowing you to still attack them and get free energy) and everyone loses their minds.  Frost be blocking (erasing) your shots with Snowglobe and everyone is chill, Limbo freezes your shots temporarily and everyone grabs their pitchforks.

I have to tell you that I've dealt with more allies who intentionally troll me (to the detriment of our team) when I play Limbo, than I've been on the same team as a trolling limbo.  You ever lay down a min range Cataclysm on a defense objective and use Stasis to help protect it, only to have Rustled Mcnumbnut pull out a Staticor or Soma and consistently break Stasis within 2 some seconds of its activation?  I go out of my way to not get in the way of my allies, but no, I'm not allowed to even play Limbo at his least disruptive.  People act like Stasis is the end of the world, but forget that your shots will still fire and that you can always use melee and abilities to do damage (unlike Limbo whose abilties don't really do that much damage).

Most of the issues created by Limbo, in my experience, are made thanks to someone using a normal-max range Cataclysm's or by a Limbo who uses Banish on too many enemies.  Nerf Cataclysm's (Banish's too) range and make a cap on the number of enemies that can be simultaneously in the rift after being banished by Banish (not Cataclysm).  Make it so that if the only enemies left alive at the end of a wave are in the Rift then two of them will be de-rifted (do basically the same thing with Nyx's Mind Control).  Add an one of those "status" icons that appear at the top of your screen for whenever you are in the Rift, along with the words "roll to dismiss" under it.  Have one of those for Stasis as well.

 

EDIT: I too dislike having to hold back so much.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Insizer

[PsiWarp]

Perhaps if Banish was handled a little differently when used on players, it would be less of a disruptive element.

Banish has always been a sort of 1 way ticket into the rift that Limbo slaps on his teammates. They don't get to decide when that happens, it just happens and suddenly the rules change (can't shoot this, can't hit that, bullets and projectiles aren't moving, etc, etc) because they are in a different dimension.

Change it from Limbo forcibly throwing teammates (I am talking about human players, how it works on allied AI stays the same) between the material plane and rift, to Limbo giving teammates a "Banish charge" that activates the next time those teammates roll or backflip. Once they do that, they use up that single charge and banish themselves into the rift with the buff icon and ability timer and everything; they can then roll or backflip again to un-banish themselves.

Limbo banishing enemies with teammates in the way? No problem! He can do his thing and teammates can join in whenever they want to.

[(XBOX)DerUnbekannteLP]

5 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

Once they do that, they use up that single charge and banish themselves into the rift with the buff icon and ability timer and everything; they can then roll or backflip again to un-banish themselves.

Limbo banishing enemies with teammates in the way? No problem! He can do his thing and teammates can join in whenever they want to.

Sorry but I don't know why I should want to be banished EVER in the game from Limbos skills. Sure, I'm invincible but as a Valkyr with my ultimate I'm also invincible. A Rhino has Iron Skin. Frost can freeze enemies and go to recover himself. And the rest is always irrelevant when you have a trinity which heals you up.