Renewal And Nekros

[redeyedtreefrog]

It's time I put this down, in pure math, why renewal's current situation with nekros is utterly useless.

Here's the builds I will be using to demonstrate numbers:

Oberon: 266% strength (r8 blind rage, intensify, power drift). I'm not factoring in any efficiency and duration in order to argue energy efficiency, because right now I'm only talking about the impact renewal's regeneration has. I'll note here that my actual oberon build only uses 145% strength (he's mainly a CC support in my playstyle). His renewal heals 90.4 hp/sec. on the high-strength build.

Nekros: 155% Duration, 211% strength. This is not the best shield of shadows build, but I'd say its similar to the most popular one, as narrow minded makes desecrate less automatic. Health decay per second is 1.94% with a 3.11x health multiplier.

 

OK, that should be the relevant build information out of the way. Now, in my opinion, for Renewal to be worth the energy cost associated with shield of shadows, it has to AT LEAST match the shadows' health decay per second. So the point at which I consider renewal to no longer be worth the extra energy cost associated with healing shield of shadows is when enemies start taking mosre than 90.4 damage per second from health decay. And remember, this is with a high strength build, not the build that I usually use.

The point at which various enemies will reach the health numbers required to match renewal:

Lancer: ~level 30

Heavy Gunner: ~Level 25

Corrupted Bombard: ~level 21

Corrupted Heavy Gunner: ~Level 15

Ancient Healer: ~Level 16

Detron Crewman: ~Level 41

Sniper Crewman: ~Level 55

Corpus Tech: ~Level 32

Charger: ~Level 35

Brood Mother: ~Level 29

Roller: Level 59

Ratel: Level 99

EDIT: These numbers are wrong. I forgot to factor in renewal's decreased heal rate to summons... this means each enemy will reach the levels needed to exceed renewal's heal at a lower level than I've listed here.

Once each of these enemies surpasses their corresponding level, The shadow of it that the aforementioned nekros can summon would be unable to be indefinitely healed by an Oberon's renewal. If no ACTUAL healing is going on, and oberon's energy is being drained more quickly, I see no advantage to this. Especially when you keep in mind that with the exception of the Sniper Crewman, the Roller, and the Ratel, these enemies all reach this level BEFORE you enter into the realm of 'sortie levels'.

 

So, here's the gist of what happens: once you reach the end of the starchart, at level 40 on sedna, you're no longer able to keep up with your average nekros' shadows' health drain with a buffed-up renewal, which I understand is what most oberons use. Discounting all other arguments I could make about oberon being energy-hungry, this is a dead energy drain. Especially when you consider that casting shield of shadows as nekros will FULLY HEAL any shadows in play, no matter their level. Nekros has his own way of healing shadows, and doesn't need another healer frame to do so, so why should I, as oberon, suffer for his existence? Why should I have a needless energy drain that doesn't even produce a net-heal at the end of star-chart's levels?

Please, do not mention anything about armor. We all know that the way armor scales, unless it's an enemy that doesn't HAVE armor, 500 extra armor will quickly stop making much of a difference for enemies. 

As an avid oberon user, I am continually frustrated by this, and strongly recommend that this issue be fixed. At the very least, we should have an option to not heal summons, though my feeling is that renewal should not affect them at all because there simply isn't a use to doing so.

 

tl;dr: Renewal shouldn't affect summons, and especially not nekros shadows.

Edited August 9, 2017 by redeyedtreefrog

[Wrum]

did they not make it so renewal would ignore necros summons?

i thought they did that.

[Ceryk]

2 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

At the very least, we should have an option to not heal summons, though my feeling is that renewal should not affect them at all because there simply isn't a use to doing so.

I second this. It's a complete waste of Oberon's energy and healing summons drains his energy pool insanely fast. The second I see a Nekros in a group, I will drop from the game if I am playing Oberon. I can't maintain Renewal like I can without a Nekros around. My ability to play my frame should not be that dramatically hindered by another frame that I dread playing with them, at least from a game mechanics standpoint.

[redeyedtreefrog]

Just now, Wrum said:

did they not make it so renewal would ignore necros summons?

i thought they did that.

Oh... Thank you for reminding me: they nerfed the effect AND the drain renewal had on nekros shadows, and other summons: it only drains 1/3rd the usual cost, but it also heals at 1/3rd the rate.

I'm afraid that makes all of my math wrong, though it skews the data in my favor, by a large margin.

[LSG501]

I've already been in missions where I've literally wandered off away from the rest of the group and triggered renewal so it only hits me purely because others in the group didn't know how not to get hit.  The fact that we get a double energy hit with renewal in general is bad enough but having energy drained, albeit reduced rate, from summons is rather excessive. 

So my vote goes for remove summons from heals at the very least.

[NinjaZeku]

My thoughts on SOTD from previous topics:

Quote

How 'bout this?

1) Make Shadows unable to be healed by anything other than a recast.
2) Make Shadows unable to be damaged by anything other than the Health decay.
3) ???
4) Grofit!

That whole Health decay thing was a neat gimmick to replace the duration timer
and I'd like it to stay, both for flavor reasons and so Squad mates also have a visual indicator.

However, with enemy damage being a thing, this was actually a nerf to Shadow duration
(and while the recast option is awesomesauce, that still is 100 Energy each time).

So, really all this'd do is bring Shadows back to what they were before
- as they almost never died from enemy damage back then, lasting their full duration -
along with not least fixing the (maybe again flavorful but in this case) stupid Oberon vs Nekros anti-synergy, yay :D

Furthermore, with Shadow Health now always at an equal %,
you can simply have that % displayed right by the ability icon,
telling you at a quick glance how soon your next recast should be, nifty.

In addition, it'd be nice to have a hold-4-to-release-Shadows function
so we're not stuck with basic units when we have stored up multiple Eximi, heh
(maybe even make the release gradual, from lowest summoning priority to highest,
so we can keep our heavies while further enhancing the quality of our Shadows).

After all, let's not forget, we did get a severely reduced max number of Shadows
(for good reason, performance etc, but) without a corresponding buff to their general power,
plus AI gonna AI, so having your derps last longer isn't exactly the most OP change ever.

 

[ShadowFel]

As an avid Nekros player, I completely agree.  I have no idea why Renewal would affect any summons except maybe...maybe...specters, since summoners typically have their own ways of restoring their health or bringing their summons back from the void.  Why should an Oberon struggle to do what he's there to do when my Nekros does what he's there to do?  I can keep my shadows alive for as long as I want, I don't need or want an Oberon's help there, and the Oberon doesn't want to help me either.  So why is this happening?

[(PSN)fullblast35]

they should just add rejuvenation passive where shadows get 25% - 30% of your recovery from that aura, not affected by coaction rift. Shadows health would still decay but a little slower.