The Never Ending Nerf Story

[Jackviator]

4 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

on the skill aspect how can you justify nerfing a skill without buffing others?

Easy. If a skill is OP, but the rest of the frame's kit is already at a reasonable power level, the OP skill in question should be brought down to a reasonable, but still-usable level. It really is that simple.

Anyway, In most recent reworks, nerfing without also buffing hasn't really happened. Look at Hydroid, for example. The range of his 3 and 4 were reduced, but he also had the damage of his 3 increased, and his 1 and 4 got usability buffs to make them more user and team friendly. He's more useful now than ever before, as has been the case with most of the touch-ups they've done over time. And in the cases of abilities being nerfed, they were usually more than deserved, because they were so far off the power-to-skill ratio. To give a few examples:

• Being able to give your entire team 99% damage reduction with Trinity with just a glaive to the foot and a tap of your 4 key
• Pressing 4 and going to make a sandwich when playing as Ash
• Using Polarize to vaporize groups of high-level Corpus near-instantaneously with Mag
• Pressing 4 and going to make a sandwich with Mesa
• Having a 360 degree, completely invulnerable (Volt-style) shield that could be easily refreshed with Frost, making Defense missions a cakewalk due to it being based on Duration instead of having a health pool based on power strength and armor

etc.

And in most of these cases, they ended up buffing other skills the frames had. For example, Ash got usability buffs to his 2 and 3, and the interactability added to his 4 meant you could choose priority targets instead of being trapped in an animation loop for upwards of a minute depending on the health pools of the enemies in question, especially when Ancients were involved, with no control over what enemies were killed first.

4 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

we have many trash skills and weapons around, things what are never going to get better.

Yeaaaahno. If enough people criticize them, things often change.

Sure, DE is usually very slow about addressing that sort of thing, but their recent weapon rebalance and frame reworks show that they're definitely interested in rebalancing weapons and powers when necessary, whether to nerf or buff. Just look at the Panthera, Miter, Sicarus Prime, Akbronco Prime, and so many others that have gotten touched up lately, and made more powerful. Sure, some were made weaker (SynSim, Tonkadonk and whatnot) but that's because they were dominating the meta by a large margin, and you often couldn't go into a public mission without seeing at least one person on the squad using them.

And just because they haven't yet addressed a weapon or frame, or even just individual frame powers, doesn't mean they never plan on doing so in the future.

4 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Do you really want the devs to buff up this piece of trash at the cost of nerfing an actually useable sword just for the sake of the balance?

Depends on if the sword (or, say, a certain bladed whip/slide-attack related mod) in question is such an outlier on the power curve that it's uncommon not to see at least one or two every mission or so, and the other, weaker weapon is almost never used. If that's the case, then yes, I would gladly let the weapon in question take a hit if others (like the Fang Prime) could be buffed, because it brings more balance to the game, and make what weapon you like to use entirely a choice of melee movesets, gun mechanics and frame playstyles as opposed to raw numbers or ease of use. That's how balance works. It doesn't restrict your options, it gives you more options.

---

And as for the game/enemies getting harder as time goes on in endless mission and such... That's just the game's way of telling you you probably should think about leaving the mission in question at a certain point. We aren't supposed to be going for ridiculous durations in Survival, Defense, Interception, etc, and thanks to Void 2.0, there's really no reason to anyway. Sortie-levels are really the max levels we should be expected to counter on a regular basis, unless you're just going into extremely high levels for the luls, which, while being your choice, is a choice that doesn't really have any incentive attached to it, so there's really no point.

So if a weapon can deal with Sortie 3 levels (80-100) even if it's with some difficulty, great. It's probably working as intended. If it's having a lot of trouble with sortie-level enemies, it should be criticized so as to draw the attention of the devs, so it can looked at. And if it can one-or two-shot Sortie levels with no real mechanical downside (for example, the pre-nerf Tonkor's wide area of effect, ease of use, and lack of any risk to the user, or the current state of the Atterax+Maiming strike), it should be nerfed to prevent it dominating the meta, for the sake of maintaining balance and encouraging weapon diversity.

[Emulad0or]

I'm not gonna make a textwall to defend Nyx (as I main her), but let me correct a couple of things here:

5 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

For example on skills im going to choose Nyx and her lovely physic bolts. Every mainly used nyx build is based on range, duration and efficiency. Only this skill requies power strenght purely.

Wrong, can't speak about other peoples builds and won't speak about mine, but P.Bolts don't need strenght. Actually, they would be fine without even dealing damage, and the reason is:

5 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

This skill deals low damage, has an acceptable status chance but overall without the augment its worthless and even with it, its a questionable choice.

It is not about damage, it is about status. Nyx passive has a chance to disarm every enemy hit bit one of her skills. P.Bolts fire 6 bolts that CAN NOT MISS, that means 1-6 enemies have a chance to be disarmed just by her passive activating. And that is if we consider 50% radiation just  "acceptable status chance". That is great to deal with a single target you want disarmed, or just to make sure everyone is confused, since if you spam chaos, the timer doesn't show the one closest to expire, or even to draw aggro from enemies to make them focus you and your bubble, since P.Bolts makes the enemies hit to target you.

I can talk about Nyx because I know her and play with her alot, and surely players that main other frames can defend their frames skills to have some use at least.

So the problem with your exemple is not that the skill is "weak", it's that you don't know how to use said skill properly. And even if the skill is relatively weaker than the other skills, so what? A warframe doesn't need 4 perfect skills. It doesn't need to deal damage, CC, tank and support all at the same time. As long as the skill has some use and her overall kit is good, there is no problem.

[Chipputer]

On 8/20/2017 at 0:32 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Get the some weapons from the ever increasing pile of trash gear like the tysis, karak and fang and try to survive solo in mot without depending on frame skills or focus cheese.

Why would anyone do this, though, except for an arbitrary thing to do? You've basically just done the next step on the, "just remove your mods if you want challenge," wheel. Nobody actually does this because smashing your face into a brick wall for 10 minutes isn't what makes something challenging.

The thing you're missing is that there needs to be both an increase in challenge as well as a method for the players to feel more powerful with weapons of different tiers. That doesn't mean the weapons can't remain viable, though, but I don't expect the base Braton to be comparing to my Soma Prime because the Soma Prime is designed to be more powerful and that's okay.

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

   The big picture is to make different point of views capable for this product, Warframe. The people who beta tested the video game devices had the grounds to use the product and accept it how it is. Further ideas around video games have pushed for creativity and how a game's engine runs. Up to now the bigger problem is the lack of appreciation for a product since some people are not showing respect for the hard work that the developers have put into the product. The game has been arcade enough for people to go as far as possible in endless missions for the challenge and to show how well they are in tune with the game through experience, intuition, and just for the thrill. It frustrates the people who use the product and those who manufactured the product that it is not meet with a 'thank you' and the proper feedback to improve the product. Instead the attitude that the product is 'over done' , according to a point of view, is just not the rhetoric that people are communicating for. For people to continue to enjoy this product, Warframe, catering to those that appreciate the work and feed back would be considerate in a continued synergy. Surely there are other products that meet said interests of others that want to add certain ideas to this game; but saying the product is 'too well done', then asking for it to be downgraded is not the proper way to thank the hours spent by others to make this possible for people to use.

[Fallen_Echo]

10 hours ago, Emulad0or said:

I'm not gonna make a textwall to defend Nyx (as I main her), but let me correct a couple of things here: You dont need, Nyx tank is currently in my 3 most used frames, I know how useful are her skills. YOU only need to defend the P. bolts.

Wrong, can't speak about other peoples builds and won't speak about mine, but P.Bolts don't need strenght. Actually, they would be fine without even dealing damage, and the reason is:

It is not about damage, it is about status. Nyx passive has a chance to disarm every enemy hit bit one of her skills. P.Bolts fire 6 bolts that CAN NOT MISS, that means 1-6 enemies have a chance to be disarmed just by her passive activating. And that is if we consider 50% radiation just  "acceptable status chance". That is great to deal with a single target you want disarmed, or just to make sure everyone is confused, since if you spam chaos, the timer doesn't show the one closest to expire, or even to draw aggro from enemies to make them focus you and your bubble, since P.Bolts makes the enemies hit to target you.

I can talk about Nyx because I know her and play with her alot, and surely players that main other frames can defend their frames skills to have some use at least.

So the problem with your exemple is not that the skill is "weak", it's that you don't know how to use said skill properly. And even if the skill is relatively weaker than the other skills, so what? A warframe doesn't need 4 perfect skills. It doesn't need to deal damage, CC, tank and support all at the same time. As long as the skill has some use and her overall kit is good, there is no problem.

I use max efficiency ,high duration build with assimilate and chaos bubbles. This along with the Ack and brunt exclusive mod and the taunt mod works like charm.

My problem with this skill that it has soo much less usefullness compared to others that DE could just remove it and the majority of nyx users probably never going to miss it.

Now if her augment would been incorporated in this skill for half duration it would be great but soo far even with max efficiency casting this feels like wasting energy.

10 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Why would anyone do this, though, except for an arbitrary thing to do? You've basically just done the next step on the, "just remove your mods if you want challenge," wheel. Nobody actually does this because smashing your face into a brick wall for 10 minutes isn't what makes something challenging.

The thing you're missing is that there needs to be both an increase in challenge as well as a method for the players to feel more powerful with weapons of different tiers. That doesn't mean the weapons can't remain viable, though, but I don't expect the base Braton to be comparing to my Soma Prime because the Soma Prime is designed to be more powerful and that's okay.

Thats right, i dont expect it.                          (thought i would love if the Karak would get some love, that sound is great)

Im all for increasing the challange but soo far nothing challanging ever happened expect the creation of Nox who needs headshots to be killed fast. I would love if we could get lv100 nodes to finally get some use of my 3-4 forma weapons.

I dont want to get weapons weaker just soo the mindless mutants and clones have a longer time to deal with, i want them to turn into something what gets me thinking on how should i approach it.

[Emulad0or]

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I use max efficiency ,high duration build with assimilate and chaos bubbles. This along with the Ack and brunt exclusive mod and the taunt mod works like charm.

My problem with this skill that it has soo much less usefullness compared to others that DE could just remove it and the majority of nyx users probably never going to miss it.

Now if her augment would been incorporated in this skill for half duration it would be great but soo far even with max efficiency casting this feels like wasting energy.

So you need specific a weapon with an exclusive mod to get the same effect you get from the bolts... What if I want to use a different weapon? 

Just because you feel the skill "has soo much less usefullness compared to others" doesn't mean that "DE could just remove it". It has its uses, and it doesn't need to be as usefull as the others as long as it has it's uses. Just like Mind Control, you could argue M.Control is not as usefull as Chaos or Absorb, but that doesn't mean it it useless or that it can't help you alot if you know how t use it. You (and maybe "the majority of nyx users") just don't know how to use P.Bolts that way, and maybe it doesn't change your gameplay at all, but it does change mine, since I'm not a fan of Ack and Brunt and sometimes I need to taunt enemies for exemple.

 

3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Im all for increasing the challange but soo far nothing challanging ever happened expect the creation of Nox who needs headshots to be killed fast. I would love if we could get lv100 nodes to finally get some use of my 3-4 forma weapons.

Like spin to win with Atterax and Naramon? Yeah, I bet lv100 nodes is what will make that combo get some challenge... Hey, I'm all in for the lv100 nodes, but that will still be cheesed by overpowered stuff, and that leads back to the original topic of Nerf/not Nerf

[Fallen_Echo]

4 hours ago, Emulad0or said:

So you need specific a weapon with an exclusive mod to get the same effect you get from the bolts... What if I want to use a different weapon? 

Just because you feel the skill "has soo much less usefullness compared to others" doesn't mean that "DE could just remove it". It has its uses, and it doesn't need to be as usefull as the others as long as it has it's uses. Just like Mind Control, you could argue M.Control is not as usefull as Chaos or Absorb, but that doesn't mean it it useless or that it can't help you alot if you know how t use it. You (and maybe "the majority of nyx users") just don't know how to use P.Bolts that way, and maybe it doesn't change your gameplay at all, but it does change mine, since I'm not a fan of Ack and Brunt and sometimes I need to taunt enemies for exemple.

 

Nonono...you misunderstood me. That weapon is essential to the ultimate nyxtank build OR are your p.bolts make the enemy deal less damage to your allies or force them in a crowd to attack you?

As long as it has uses. Really? If DE would release an MK1 cernos bow what does NOT grant mastery points at all would you say that its fine because it has uses at lv5?

5 hours ago, Emulad0or said:

Like spin to win with Atterax and Naramon? Yeah, I bet lv100 nodes is what will make that combo get some challenge... Hey, I'm all in for the lv100 nodes, but that will still be cheesed by overpowered stuff, and that leads back to the original topic of Nerf/not Nerf

I might be wrong but arent nox capatable of surviving both?

[Emulad0or]

28 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Nonono...you misunderstood me. That weapon is essential to the ultimate nyxtank build OR are your p.bolts make the enemy deal less damage to your allies or force them in a crowd to attack you?

They do, in fact, make them attack you. Great to use with a Nikana with Decisive Judgement since it has great movement to counter bubble slow

37 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

As long as it has uses. Really? If DE would release an MK1 cernos bow what does NOT grant mastery points at all would you say that its fine because it has uses at lv5?

That question doesnt make any sense. Where did Mastery Points came into discution? All equipment, even MK1 grant MR points. And if it was a good weapon for lv5, easy to get, any player starting the game would have a use for it, so yeah, no problem if the weapon is weak but easy to get and have a place in the game.

40 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I might be wrong but arent nox capatable of surviving both?

Hit them enough and they fall eventually, and even if they don't, you are still invisible for what, 10 sec? More than enough time to get a pistol, kill it and go back to spinning

[Fallen_Echo]

15 minutes ago, Emulad0or said:

They do, in fact, make them attack you. Great to use with a Nikana with Decisive Judgement since it has great movement to counter bubble slow

Because its an attack, not becuase it draws agroo to you. Any weapon is capatable of that.

 

16 minutes ago, Emulad0or said:

That question doesnt make any sense. Where did Mastery Points came into discution? All equipment, even MK1 grant MR points. And if it was a good weapon for lv5, easy to get, any player starting the game would have a use for it, so yeah, no problem if the weapon is weak but easy to get and have a place in the game.

It makes sense, i wanted to see if you would justify an idea this bad because it "has uses".

17 minutes ago, Emulad0or said:

Hit them enough and they fall eventually, and even if they don't, you are still invisible for what, 10 sec? More than enough time to get a pistol, kill it and go back to spinning

Hey if you need to stop doing your main attack type just to deal with this guy i can call it a challanging obstacle.

[Emulad0or]

29 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Because its an attack, not becuase it draws agroo to you. Any weapon is capatable of that.

 

Bolts draw agroo without the need for the Ack and brunt with the mod. If an enemy is shooting you and I want to draw the aggro, bolts do a far better job than a gun, specially if I'm too far and "bubble tanking"

31 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

It makes sense, i wanted to see if you would justify an idea this bad because it "has uses".

What doesn't make sense is the lack of MR points, not that a "bad" weapon exists but still has its uses. Not all weapons need to be tunned for "endgame"

33 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Hey if you need to stop doing your main attack type just to deal with this guy i can call it a challanging obstacle

Hey, guess we have quite different perspectives of what a "challenging obstacle" is, but I'll just leave it at that

[Fallen_Echo]

29 minutes ago, Emulad0or said:

Bolts draw agroo without the need for the Ack and brunt with the mod. If an enemy is shooting you and I want to draw the aggro, bolts do a far better job than a gun, specially if I'm too far and "bubble tanking"

Well if you are attacking a target out of your visible area, behind atleast 3m wide wall/obstacle then yes it can be used to draw aggro towards you till the second someone else shots at the target. Aggro goes towards the more threating target and due to its low damage and no innate extra aggro, it can fail fast.

For everything other you can use a potent secondary/primary weapon.

35 minutes ago, Emulad0or said:

What doesn't make sense is the lack of MR points, not that a "bad" weapon exists but still has its uses. Not all weapons need to be tunned for "endgame"

I wanted to create a weapon what doesnt have any reason to be used. MK1 weapons are already bad as they are tutorial guns but creating one what doesnt even give mastery rank points makes it entirely useless.

36 minutes ago, Emulad0or said:

Hey, guess we have quite different perspectives of what a "challenging obstacle" is, but I'll just leave it at that

Well lets just stop our previous argument for a day. How would you make the enemies more challanging?