Bring back Void Keys..

[YUNoJump]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

No that's your assumption. My point was since DE doesn't give a crap about console in any way, shape, or form and only listens to the pc community then there was no real point into porting it over to console. (aside from trying to make a few more bucks)

Ok, so either you're saying that console players would unanimously prefer keys for some reason, and you have proof; or you're just going off on a tangent about console vs PC and this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. I'll say it again, I'd really like proof that console players would choose differently to PC players in this scenario.

14 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

The ONLY thing the relic system has done was condense the loot pool of items in which case they could have just done that with an update or a patch. The relic system is a laughable "rework" of the key system. I can guarantee you that if the loot pool was condensed for the key system as it is now for the relic system you'd have 2-3 times as many prime parts and sets as you currently have.

What do you mean by "condense"? I really can't tell what you're talking about here.

[octobotimus]

i hated grinding endless survivals for 1 part i wanted.......but now i seem to get prime parts faster than back then, so.... i'd say new system is better

 

[Andaius]

19 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

The ONLY thing the relic system has done was condense the loot pool of items in which case they could have just done that with an update or a patch. The relic system is a laughable "rework" of the key system. I can guarantee you that if the loot pool was condensed for the key system as it is now for the relic system you'd have 2-3 times as many prime parts and sets as you currently have.

Lol. If you "condensed" the loot tables of Keys then you'd have the same thing as relics now! Your also forgetting the OTHER problems with the key system that you seem to be hinting at is an advantage. You only need one key on endless. Then I should remind you all the complaining and problems with keyshares that where going on too. You skip all that with the relic sysytem! So looks like the relics are a win on both counts! Better loot grinding, no more keyshare shenanigans!

[(PSN)Deathscythex01]

10 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Ok, so either you're saying that console players would unanimously prefer keys for some reason, and you have proof; or you're just going off on a tangent about console vs PC and this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. I'll say it again, I'd really like proof that console players would choose differently to PC players in this scenario.

 

Like I posted before I not once posted that the majority of console players wanted the key system or the relic system. You can try to twist my words all you want it wont get you very far. Can you sit their and tell me that DE listens to console players as well? Because as I posted before if they did we wouldnt be arguing right now or rather we wouldnt be arguing about this topic right now. Wheres your proof that DE listens to console community? I know plenty of other console players preferred the keys over the relics. I do know everyone on both platforms were wanting something more than the key system but this relic system wasnt the answer. All that needed to be done was condense the loot pool but noooo lets get rid of it and put this relic system in which is the exact same thing as the key system but without the extra items. Really? DE needed to make an entirely new system just to take out some items from the loot pool.

 

10 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

.

What do you mean by "condense"? I really can't tell what you're talking about here.

Condense or rather to make smaller meaning taking out items from the loot pool to make it smaller and easier to get things which is basically what the relic system is.

Edited November 17, 2017 by (PS4)Deathscythex01

[(PSN)Deathscythex01]

5 hours ago, Andaius said:

Lol. If you "condensed" the loot tables of Keys then you'd have the same thing as relics now! Your also forgetting the OTHER problems with the key system that you seem to be hinting at is an advantage. You only need one key on endless. Then I should remind you all the complaining and problems with keyshares that where going on too. You skip all that with the relic sysytem! So looks like the relics are a win on both counts! Better loot grinding, no more keyshare shenanigans!

That was my point. If they just condensed the loot pool when the key system was in game then the relic system wouldnt be here. 

Never had an issue with key share since I did that with friends or clan mates. But theres still a similar issue with relics. Say no one gets what they want instead of picking a prime part or forma they can simply close the application so no one gets anything and they can try again.

[YUNoJump]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

Like I posted before I not once posted that the majority of console players wanted the key system or the relic system. You can try to twist my words all you want it wont get you very far. Can you sit their and tell me that DE listens to console players as well? Because as I posted before if they did we wouldnt be arguing right now or rather we wouldnt be arguing about this topic right now. Wheres your proof that DE listens to console community? I know plenty of other console players preferred the keys over the relics.

Is that not clearly what you are saying right here? You say that you aren't making a correlation between console opinions and preferring Keys, but then you immediately say that if DE listened to console opinions then we would still have keys, and that you know lots of console players prefer keys. If that's not what you're arguing then I honestly don't know what your point is about console players. 

What is there to prove about DE listening to console players? We all use the same forums and subreddit, in fact the people on the subreddit can't even be differentiated by platform AFAIK, and the only difference is a little prefix on the forums. The only way DE could purposely ignore console players is by selectively ignoring people with the prefix, and I have no idea why they'd want to do that.

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

I do know everyone on both platforms were wanting something more than the key system but this relic system wasnt the answer. All that needed to be done was condense the loot pool but noooo lets get rid of it and put this relic system in which is the exact same thing as the key system but without the extra items. Really? DE needed to make an entirely new system just to take out some items from the loot pool.

If by "extra items" you mean the ability to get multiple rewards from endless keys, then I'd like to remind you that not all keys were endless. In fact, most were single-run, but the drop tables still had non-prime items in them, most egregiously the T2 keys that dropped from T1 runs a good portion of the time. T1 non-endless keys were absolutely horrible to run, because there was a good chance that it would be literally useless to do it. If you want to defend the Key system then defend it properly, don't just glorify the endless aspect while ignoring the biggest problems it had. 

On another note, how could they possibly have condensed keys? there was a set number of keys (4 for each void mission type minus interception), and even their attempts to condense the keys' drop tables by adding more keys didn't work (as we saw with the addition of T4, Interception and Sabotage). The system had serious issues much larger than just making the tables less cluttered.

[(PSN)Deathscythex01]

On 11/17/2017 at 3:21 AM, YUNoJump said:

Is that not clearly what you are saying right here? You say that you aren't making a correlation between console opinions and preferring Keys, but then you immediately say that if DE listened to console opinions then we would still have keys, and that you know lots of console players prefer keys. If that's not what you're arguing then I honestly don't know what your point is about console players. 

What is there to prove about DE listening to console players? We all use the same forums and subreddit, in fact the people on the subreddit can't even be differentiated by platform AFAIK, and the only difference is a little prefix on the forums. The only way DE could purposely ignore console players is by selectively ignoring people with the prefix, and I have no idea why they'd want to do that.

 

*sigh* Oh for the love of......nevermind. You clearly didnt pay attention when I posted that warframe is one of the exceptions to the rule of casual v. hardcore player since its a pc ported to console the standard becomes pc v. console. So with that when I refer to console players im referring to the console player base that plays warframe not console players as a whole. Why you keep trying to push your own issues about console players onto me is currently irrelevant. I'll simplify and get straight to my point since you're the only one who doesnt get it. My point is the: DE only listens to 1 part of the community and not the community as a whole because if they did we wouldnt be arguing about this topic right now.

 

On 11/17/2017 at 3:21 AM, YUNoJump said:

 

If by "extra items" you mean the ability to get multiple rewards from endless keys, then I'd like to remind you that not all keys were endless. In fact, most were single-run, but the drop tables still had non-prime items in them, most egregiously the T2 keys that dropped from T1 runs a good portion of the time. T1 non-endless keys were absolutely horrible to run, because there was a good chance that it would be literally useless to do it. If you want to defend the Key system then defend it properly, don't just glorify the endless aspect while ignoring the biggest problems it had. 

On another note, how could they possibly have condensed keys? there was a set number of keys (4 for each void mission type minus interception), and even their attempts to condense the keys' drop tables by adding more keys didn't work (as we saw with the addition of T4, Interception and Sabotage). The system had serious issues much larger than just making the tables less cluttered.

 By extra items i mean non prime parts such orokin cells, forma, other keys, etc. The ability to get multiple rewards was only ever an issue for DE because that enabled players to potentially get what they wanted quicker and thus getting "finished" with the game quicker.

Please fully read what people post before you comment it saves the poster having to repeat what has already been posted. I wasnt referring to the keys themselves but to the keys loot pool. The relic system as ive posted is the exact same as the key system except condensed  meaning they took out items such as other keys/relics, orokin cells, mods, etc. thereby condensing the keys loot pool. Which in my opinion was stupid because they could have done that with a patch and kept the old system. But no too many crybabies on both platforms about key sharing and getting essentially ganked for there key.

[White_Matter]

100% agreed.

Void was an exclusive spot. Forming groups and having keys actually meant something. 

Relic system reduced farming primes into a casual mindless grinding activity. Lost its magic.

And by extention made void pretty meaningless.

When was the last time you went to void unless it was a sortie or an alert ? I even forgot it exists.

 

[YUNoJump]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

DE only listens to 1 part of the community and not the community as a whole because if they did we wouldnt be arguing about this topic right now.

Yes, and I was saying that unless you're implying that you have proof that console players in general prefer Keys, then whatever you're on about with who DE listens to is completely irrelevant to this topic. DE might indeed only listen to PC players (for whatever reason), but unless you are saying that listening to console players would cause DE to keep Keys, then your argument is irrelevant to this topic. Again, I have no idea what you're on about with this point unless you provide proof of your point.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

By extra items i mean non prime parts such orokin cells, forma, other keys, etc. The ability to get multiple rewards was only ever an issue for DE because that enabled players to potentially get what they wanted quicker and thus getting "finished" with the game quicker.

Those extra items were one of the biggest issues with the Key system. You could run T4D for 100 waves and leave with 15 orokin cells and no parts from rotation C at all. Likewise, you could run 10 T1MD keys and leave with 10 T2C keys, because T2 keys were in the T1 drop tables. People want Prime parts from the only source of Prime parts in the game. 

10 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

Please fully read what people post before you comment it saves the poster having to repeat what has already been posted. I wasnt referring to the keys themselves but to the keys loot pool. The relic system as ive posted is the exact same as the key system except condensed  meaning they took out items such as other keys/relics, orokin cells, mods, etc. thereby condensing the keys loot pool. Which in my opinion was stupid because they could have done that with a patch and kept the old system. But no too many crybabies on both platforms about key sharing and getting essentially ganked for there key.

Yes I know what you mean, the items that the keys drop, not the keys themselves. Even without the cells and Cores and such, every key had 7-13 prime parts on them, especially Rotation C tables. Every single relic has 6, and you can modify the drop rates with Traces to target a specific part. Even if keys had just had their fluff removed and kept the same system otherwise, it wouldn't solve the problem that I could run 100 waves of Defence and leave with absolutely no progress to the desired part made, and nothing but prime junk to show for it. Relics give you Traces which can increase the chance of a rare part dropping by as much as 5 times. That's massive! the extra piles of resources on key drop tables were far from their only issue, and key sharing issues were hardly at the top of that list. In fact we still have keysharing issues now.

[(PSN)Deathscythex01]

15 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Yes, and I was saying that unless you're implying that you have proof that console players in general prefer Keys, then whatever you're on about with who DE listens to is completely irrelevant to this topic. DE might indeed only listen to PC players (for whatever reason), but unless you are saying that listening to console players would cause DE to keep Keys, then your argument is irrelevant to this topic. Again, I have no idea what you're on about with this point unless you provide proof of your point.

Those extra items were one of the biggest issues with the Key system. You could run T4D for 100 waves and leave with 15 orokin cells and no parts from rotation C at all. Likewise, you could run 10 T1MD keys and leave with 10 T2C keys, because T2 keys were in the T1 drop tables. People want Prime parts from the only source of Prime parts in the game. 

Yes I know what you mean, the items that the keys drop, not the keys themselves. Even without the cells and Cores and such, every key had 7-13 prime parts on them, especially Rotation C tables. Every single relic has 6, and you can modify the drop rates with Traces to target a specific part. Even if keys had just had their fluff removed and kept the same system otherwise, it wouldn't solve the problem that I could run 100 waves of Defence and leave with absolutely no progress to the desired part made, and nothing but prime junk to show for it. Relics give you Traces which can increase the chance of a rare part dropping by as much as 5 times. That's massive! the extra piles of resources on key drop tables were far from their only issue, and key sharing issues were hardly at the top of that list. In fact we still have keysharing issues now.

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall you just wont understand no matter what. 

You keep saying the same thing over and over just rewording it as if i didnt understand you the first time you said it. I clearly understand what you are saying but you clearly dont understand what im saying no matter how i simplify it. There's just no getting the point through to you. You're too focused on 1 thing and that is that fact that I made a comment about DE listening to only 1 part of the community.

For the last time I not once said the entire console player base that plays warframe wanted either system. My point which you will fail to get no matter what is that DE only listens to one part of the entire community. You also fail to get that if resources were taken out of the loot pool only prime parts would remain regardless if you keep getting dupes you're still getting prime parts and only prime parts. Get it now? Since everyone else clearly has gotten my point its just you who does not get it. Im done with you. 

[Sloan441]

23 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Void was an exclusive spot. 

It was and I do miss it. I generally go out of my way tot select missions there just to play in the fantastic art of the place. 

 

23 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Forming groups and having keys actually meant something. 

Well, ideally maybe. What it usually meant was dealing with deadbeats, the non-copable, and leeches. I easily had as many problematic groups as good ones--and that's with manually forming groups. 

On the other hand, having keys did mean something: it meant I could go solo and not bother with the potential of problematic teammates. 

23 hours ago, White_Matter said:

 Relic system reduced farming primes into a casual mindless grinding activity. Lost its magic.

Because doing 40-60min T3 and T4 survivals over and over and over and over and over...and over...wasn't mindless grinding activity. Right? There wasn't much magic, though it did put me near to sleep on many occasions. The scenery was pretty, though!

I would like to see the Void made more relevant in day-to-day gameplay, but the old system of keyfarming was anything but ideal. We've gone from it being mandatory to spend time there on about a daily basis, to barely seeing the place. A happy medium would be appreciated, but I don't think relics or keys are the answer. 

 

[White_Matter]

1 hour ago, Sloan441 said:

 

Well, ideally maybe. What it usually meant was dealing with deadbeats, the non-copable, and leeches. I easily had as many problematic groups as good ones--and that's with manually forming groups. 

On the other hand, having keys did mean something: it meant I could go solo and not bother with the potential of problematic teammates. 

 

That wasn't my experience for the most part. I remember selecting decent groups or mostly people from my clan.

Having keys also allowed you for one person to host and the rest of em also get the rewards.

1 hour ago, Sloan441 said:

Because doing 40-60min T3 and T4 survivals over and over and over and over and over...and over...wasn't mindless grinding activity. Right? There wasn't much magic, though it did put me near to sleep on many occasions. The scenery was pretty, though!

It wasn't as mindless and repetitive, because the enemies scaled well and you had to be on your toes. There was a challenge aspect to it.

Doing a 40 min survival isn't the same as doing 8x5min fissures. The latter is the definition of a mindless grind. Also you need relics for every single prime part while with a single void key you could get multiple of em.

1 hour ago, Sloan441 said:

 

I would like to see the Void made more relevant in day-to-day gameplay, but the old system of keyfarming was anything but ideal. We've gone from it being mandatory to spend time there on about a daily basis, to barely seeing the place. A happy medium would be appreciated, but I don't think relics or keys are the answer. 

 

I agree, the old system wasn't ideal. It was still better than the current one. I'd be happy with something in between as well. Having an exclusive and challenging spot to farm but with a smarter system in mind would be great.

[YUNoJump]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall you just wont understand no matter what. 

You keep saying the same thing over and over just rewording it as if i didnt understand you the first time you said it. I clearly understand what you are saying but you clearly dont understand what im saying no matter how i simplify it. There's just no getting the point through to you. You're too focused on 1 thing and that is that fact that I made a comment about DE listening to only 1 part of the community.

For the last time I not once said the entire console player base that plays warframe wanted either system. My point which you will fail to get no matter what is that DE only listens to one part of the entire community. You also fail to get that if resources were taken out of the loot pool only prime parts would remain regardless if you keep getting dupes you're still getting prime parts and only prime parts. Get it now? Since everyone else clearly has gotten my point its just you who does not get it. Im done with you. 

OK I can't really see how the console argument you're talking about (whatever it is) matters in the argument of "is the relic system better", so let's just drop it for the sake of a consistent argument not plagued with both sides failing to understand each other. DE might choose sides but I don't care, I want to actually discuss which system is better. Lots of people liked Twilight but that doesn't make it good.

5 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

You also fail to get that if resources were taken out of the loot pool only prime parts would remain regardless if you keep getting dupes you're still getting prime parts and only prime parts.

I understand that point perfectly and I've offered up arguments against your side. You can't just say "you don't understand" to every single argument, eventually you have to actually explain why or argue back. I've said multiple times that there are more issues than just having extra resources in the tables and we've gone nowhere with that.

For example, even if Prime parts were the only things on Key drop tables, people don't just want "prime parts". They want a prime part that's useful to them, and the Relic system is based on that. Endless Keys got you more prime parts overall, but accumulating an actual specific prime set was a slow and painful experience. Relics allow you to actually progress towards sets, by accumulating Traces from every run, and using those traces to boost chances for specific parts. 

There's also the fact that with Keys, all of endgame was just boring Void missions. There was nothing special about Void runs, Void enemies are just normal enemies and Void missions are barely different to any Starchart mission (except sabotage). Additionally, farming a specific prime part involved running the exact same mission type over and over. With Relics, the starchart remains relevant, and farming is done in a variety of tilesets and mission types. Variety is good.

Again I want to mention the fact that Traces can boost drop chances to a massive degree, a level of forgiveness that Keys never even touched on. 

Everyone else has clearly gotten your point? Is that why a decent majority of people have no huge issues with Relics? In the past, when something was universally hated by the community, then DE changed it. See Vivergate, The Vacuum Within and all of the recent tweaks to PoE. There's clearly not a huge number of people with serious problems.

[Therebil]

So I have an idea, I'm wondering what you guys think. Whenever they unvault something how about instead of adding their diluted relics back in for a little while they bring back a few keys (just like the old system) then you use these keys to farm for the unvaulted frame weapons etc in the current void tile-sets. This would allow for those who prefer or liked the old system to be able to relive the days, would bring more significance to the void, and give that little extra separation between vaulted and unvaulted.

Let me know what you guys think, thanks for reading!!

[YUNoJump]

12 hours ago, Therebil said:

So I have an idea, I'm wondering what you guys think. Whenever they unvault something how about instead of adding their diluted relics back in for a little while they bring back a few keys (just like the old system) then you use these keys to farm for the unvaulted frame weapons etc in the current void tile-sets. This would allow for those who prefer or liked the old system to be able to relive the days, would bring more significance to the void, and give that little extra separation between vaulted and unvaulted.

Let me know what you guys think, thanks for reading!!

Problem with that is that when you get a Relic from a mission, be it a normal or temporary Relic, you get to keep that Relic forever. That way Relics you own won't become useless until you either get the part, or use the Relic. If keys were unlocked for unvaulted parts, they would presumably work on the old system, where the drop tables change and the keys stay the same, so if someone farmed up 50 keys for an unvaulted Prime and failed to use them all in time, they could become useless to the person until the next unvaulting.

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

On 9/3/2017 at 3:49 AM, Oksanya said:

I will start this off by saying the following: I understand that Relics have replaced Keys 100%, and i'm fine with that; I really am.  I farm relics all the time.  However, some veteran players like me liked the old Void Key system better.

---------------------------------

A personal pet-peev of mine throughout the time I've played and enjoyed Warframe, was the removal of Void Keys.  To me and probably others that were around during the same time when Void Keys were a thing, the Void Keys actually felt like an end game to Warframe; unlike sorties which, most of the time, either give borderline useless, or ok (at best) loot overall.  Even with the Void Key leeching that was a thing, you always had the option to pick and choose people from your clan or your friends list, and NOT get stuck in with a group of total randoms.  The Void Relic was not made for ease of use, in my eyes anyway.  

It was made so people would have a harder time farming up Prime Warframes and Weapons.  Let me say this again, I accept that Relics are there, and i'm fine with them, I use them and farm them when im not leveling frames or talking to friends...but that doesn't mean I have to act like they don't have problems.  If you think I am crazy, think of it like this:

~New Prime Weapons or Frames come out, and now commence the vaulting of the old relics and making them no longer farmable.

~With those new prime now out, you need to find the new relics that contain their parts.  This prevents you from stretching one item (A Void Key) into long runs in void survival or defense, there was a reason to stay longer in defense and survival void missions when keys were around.  Now, Relics instead give you a half baked reward or some more exp if you go though rounds/waves or whatever.

My feelings about the removal of Void Keys will never change, no matter how long I play this awesome game.  Void relics create less loot in the Void overall, and are a bigger waste of space..and adds more random information we do not need.  The Void Keys also made the Void feel...how do you put it...special.  Locked away and sacred, that only those with a specific item could dare enter inside and reap the epic rewards, because if I remember right; you couldn't enter the Void UNLESS you had one of these keys.

If you read all of this, thank you for your time.  Agree or Disagree? Tell me what you think.

 

~Oksanya

I agree with you. but I feel I have to say that the old void key system was essentially the same system. The relics merely added the illusion of altering fate with refining and added even more rng shenanigans with having to find a specific relic from random reward tables on farming missions. I absolutely hated the old void system for the same reason I hate relics. It's essentially a lottery or a slot wheel, or a dice roll, or a roulette, or  whichever gambling suits you. And it's a cheesy loot box.

I for one hate the idea that I can spend HOURS and DAYS playing to have it all come down to a random chance. It makes me feel that all effort was pointless. and don't get me wrong, I still get that random good luck and i still feel good i finally got that item, but i realize that's just the gambling addict inherent to all people rearing it's head and most time i feel like i'm wasting my time focusing on primes I want to find.

Since relics I have not been able to find a complete set without resorting to trade or the good mercy of clan mates. I got a Soma Prime receiver from a clan mate for helping him out and I bought a Triny Prime Systems to finally complete a prime frame.  I've been farming for the Soma Prime for some time and I just abandoned the search because like you said between finding the specific relic, then refining it, then running the mission alot of times, there are way too make breaks and obstacles and in the end I just kept not getting the one freaking Soma Prime Receiver I needed to build the item I wanted. I must have spent dozens of hours in in game play time just to get the part as a gift.

I came up with an idea in another thread which could still keep relics but alter the way you use them to acquire prime items and still provide a grind and effort to get it.

So the idea involves opening up refining and allowing you to SELECT a specific reward to receive. So say you find a relic with a prime part, say a Volt Prime Neuroptics, along with the other rewards. Now you decide you want to go for the Neuro, so you go refine the it like you typically do until you hit the current 100 void point level. You can decide right then and there to open up the relic and take your slot wheel chance for the item. But you could also decide to keep going and go for a specific reward. You can then select a specific reward, and it will designate a specific amount of void traces you need to install to refine the item to 100% to get it. There can be a system which adjusts the total number of traces and at what pace you can install it, say put in a void trace lost amount, like a variable % traces lost per contribution. So you start out at 50% and keep moving up the percentage. At 75% or higher, depending on the time sink, you can now attempt to open up the relic again and see if you get that part. At this point however, you have to take it somewhere else to open it. The Void Trader. At 75% and above chance at opening you have to pay the Void trader in ducats for him to open up the relic, you can even add more adjustment by paying more ducats than is recommended for an improved chance. The risk however, is that unless it's a 100% chance to get the item you have a chance to get nothing at all.

With this system you can specifically work towards whatever goal you want and be sure that every piece of effort you make is guarantee to get you that result. But if you wanna say YOLO and just roll the dice and hope you get it early, you still have a chance to do that.

Another thing that they could also implement is creating a system where you can locate and find specific relics across the game map. You can craft a Relic Beacon that you can equip in your gear and when you go farm for relics, the beacon gives you a higher chance to get the specific type you are looking for. The crafting mats for the beacon are rewarded in spy/rescue/capture missions on the planet which can drop that level and type of relic. For balance sake, once you find the specific relic, the beacon dies and you can only use one type per player per mission. So 4 players can't all load up on the same beacon and farm them ad nauseum. And the beacon only increases the chance one will drop; so you will still have to relic farm for some time to get it to drop. But if it never drops and you wanna give up you can extract and still retain the beacon for another crack at it later.

[TENNOLOGIC]

Since the new relic system i gave up on warframe i didnt find fun farming for relics and wasting time slaying monoton mobs. In the old void key system i had fun playing it was both challenging and worth the time spend because i always got want i want in 1 session i even got mostly 2x of the rare new parts i wanted in only 1 run like survival or defense modes wich were looping the a b c rotation. I really loved this game and still love it but prime stuff farming atm is really boring for me and not rewarding for the time at all. I understand that the relic system might be easier for new players but for old/veteran players or at least for me it feels just like a waste of time. It would be nice if you would let the relic system exist so people wich want to farm with relics farm it that way but also bring back the void keys so people like me wich prefers that can farm their prime stuff there. VOID KEY vs RELICS my opinion VOID KEYS WINS 99999999999999999999999999999999999999 to 0

[Almighty_Jado]

Void Keys? I haven't heard about those in years

*old man voice*