Duality Equinox is actually awesome.

[Deshiel]

Ok you convinced me, I'll give it a go

[DreamsmithJane]

49 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA what?!

Well...

Spoiler

49 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

Calm and frenzy is useless in day form, and in night is is good if you want to go around doing finishers on everything. But that's generally kinda boring.

It's really not. Rage is actually helpful in a lot of ways. As for night form, you do know you can shoot sleeping enemies, right? You don't have to melee them. You can also use slide attacks and longer range combos to melee sleeping targets without initiating finishers.

21 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

However, peaceful provocation in night form gives you damage resistance in proximity to enemies (quite useful), and slows them down (also very useful). The slow is especially good in survival because unlike a slowva or something, it is localized. So enemies will still spawn in rooms around you and quickly run to you, but once they're in range, they're nice and slowed.

If they're asleep, then neither of those things matter. Rest provides 100% slow and damage reduction anywhere within the 125m (max) cast range. And "it is localized." Enemy damage reduction and slow are not useful, because they exist adjacent to an ability that puts everything to sleep, requires no buildup, and remains in effect no matter which form you use. Rest also covers long range attackers that Pacify can't touch.

And with Calm & Frenzy, you can cast Rage on distant enemies to make them approach faster, and Rest when they get close to stop them in their tracks without removing the damage vulnerability. Both will spread when targets are killed. It is the best of both speed Nova and Vauban. It also allows you to spread Rest for CC even while you're channeling Maim. It is by far Equinox's best augment.

31 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

In day form, it allows for a much greater power strength buff for your team at minimal cost. Very beneficial.

It comes at the cost of half of her kit being unusable without losing the bonus, and it's the only good thing about the mod.

33 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

unless all you do is play exterminates, you can't possibly think that augment is bad. It's one of the best in the game.

It's literally one of the worst, and I already explained why. Unless you're in a pre-made group, and your entire role is to buff everyone's ability strength and cast Maim, there's no reason to use it.

 

[tarfeef101]

2 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Well...

  Hide contents

It's really not. Rage is actually helpful in a lot of ways. As for night form, you do know you can shoot sleeping enemies, right? You don't have to melee them. You can also use slide attacks and longer range combos to melee sleeping targets without initiating finishers.

If they're asleep, then neither of those things matter. Rest provides 100% slow and damage reduction anywhere within the 125m (max) cast range. And "it is localized." Enemy damage reduction and slow are not useful, because they exist adjacent to an ability that puts everything to sleep, requires no buildup, and remains in effect no matter which form you use. Rest also covers long range attackers that Pacify can't touch.

And with Calm & Frenzy, you can cast Rage on distant enemies to make them approach faster, and Rest when they get close to stop them in their tracks without removing the damage vulnerability. Both will spread when targets are killed. It is the best of both speed Nova and Vauban. It also allows you to spread Rest for CC even while you're channeling Maim. It is by far Equinox's best augment.

It comes at the cost of half of her kit being unusable without losing the bonus, and it's the only good thing about the mod.

It's literally one of the worst, and I already explained why. Unless you're in a pre-made group, and your entire role is to buff everyone's ability strength and cast Maim, there's no reason to use it.

 

• How is speeding enemies up 1 by 1 useful? Just use a speedva if that's what you want. much more effective, and less time consuming
  • yes, you can shoot them too. But then if you don't kill them without them going below half health, they wake up. so a more "permanent" cc is better, especially because other forms of CC affect everything at once, instead of being localized around 1 enemy. if you want finishers, then just use excal or inaros instead, they have better AOE
• yes they do matter, for a couple reasons. 
  • It is always in effect. Always. Sleep will only activate once a sleeping person is killed. and in the small area around them. 
  • the range is higher compared to the area around 1 enemy when you trigger rest
  • rest is @(*()$ boring... killing sleeping enemies for 2 hours isn't fun... may as well be invis and slide attacking with naramon...
• lol you could cast rage on them, but nobody would consistently do that. you'd spend the entire mission casting and no time actually moving around, shooting, etc.
  • It seems you really don't want to do anything other than cast these, far reducing the enemies you can kill in a given time period, or you are just throwing hypotheticals out that we know aren't feasible to do in practice
• You can say Peaceful provocation is horrible all you want, but there is a reason so many people use it. Because it IS effective, is fun, functions well, and provides utility. That's why people don't use the mk1-kunai, or the furax, or other useless S#&$. because they're not effective.

[DreamsmithJane]

4 hours ago, tarfeef101 said:

• How is speeding enemies up 1 by 1 useful? Just use a speedva if that's what you want. much more effective, and less time consuming
  • yes, you can shoot them too. But then if you don't kill them without them going below half health, they wake up. so a more "permanent" cc is better, especially because other forms of CC affect everything at once, instead of being localized around 1 enemy. if you want finishers, then just use excal or inaros instead, they have better AOE
• yes they do matter, for a couple reasons. 
  • It is always in effect. Always. Sleep will only activate once a sleeping person is killed. and in the small area around them. 
  • the range is higher compared to the area around 1 enemy when you trigger rest
  • rest is @(*()$ boring... killing sleeping enemies for 2 hours isn't fun... may as well be invis and slide attacking with naramon...
• lol you could cast rage on them, but nobody would consistently do that. you'd spend the entire mission casting and no time actually moving around, shooting, etc.
  • It seems you really don't want to do anything other than cast these, far reducing the enemies you can kill in a given time period, or you are just throwing hypotheticals out that we know aren't feasible to do in practice
• You can say Peaceful provocation is horrible all you want, but there is a reason so many people use it. Because it IS effective, is fun, functions well, and provides utility. That's why people don't use the mk1-kunai, or the furax, or other useless S#&$. because they're not effective.

 

Spoiler

 

• It's not 1 by 1. Rage has a 12.5m radius with max range. How do people get it in their heads that R&R is single target? It's not even close. Don't lie. You can hit every enemy in sight with Rage, shoot 15 of them, switch to night form, and cast Rest on the cluster of Butchers/Scorpions that got close, all before Nova's MP finishes spreading.
  • They take time to wake up, and tend to fall over when shot and not killed (why aren't you killing them, anyway?), which makes their recovery even longer. And it still spreads if they die before they've fully woken up.
  • You just told me Pacify's "localized" nature is a good thing, and now you want a massive AoE that stuns enemies scattered halfway across the map so they can't approach? Make up your mind. Besides, with Calm & Frenzy spreading it, the AoE on Rest & Rage is as big as you want it to be, is not limited to line of sight, and has a much higher casting range.
• No, they don't matter. Sleep overrides both of them.
  • It's not in effect outside of its radius, which is centered on you and has a fixed range. Rest can be re-cast any time, as well as spread (when augmented) by shooting a single affected enemy, and it stays where you put it, which lets you control larger areas of the map, or more than one area without actually being there constantly (see: Interception).
  • Either you are constantly killing enemies, or you are intentionally not killing them, which means you have time to cast Rest again. Rest easily affects a larger area, if you want it to. You have the choice, which is even better.
  • Now you're just admitting that Rest is more effective and makes things less challenging.
• Again, don't lie. The radius is large enough to catch a large number of enemies with a single cast, after which you should be shooting them to spread it, or turning to cast at another spawn point while you wait for them to get closer.
  • I have used it. I know it works. You're the one throwing out hypotheticals you haven't tested. Rage is not a single-target ability, and its casting animation is very short. You don't need to spend all your time casting it on every individual enemy. Okay?
• And here we have the logical fallacy of an appeal to the masses. The more popular thing is not always better. That's exactly the point I was making. People use Peaceful Provocation most likely because it's easy to sit in one form and get shot until your aura builds up, not because it's actually good. People are always buying into the narrative that this or that is "useless" and there's only one correct choice. One ability in a kit that's worth using. One weapon in a category. One mod on a weapon. So they don't have to choose. They just look up the "correct" min-max build and use it. Ironically, many vocal Warframe players seem to love making things simpler, and playing Equinox to her fullest potential is not simple. But it is definitely very effective.

At this point, you're contradicting yourself each time you try to dismiss what I've said, which leads me to believe you're arguing for argument's sake, and don't actually care if what you're saying is accurate (it's not). Now, if I'm not mistaken, the OP made this thread to discuss Duality, not to argue about which of Equinox's other augments is better. I made a flippant comment about the popularity of an objectively less effective tactic when you said it was mandatory to the point that Duality was unusable. I didn't expect you to actually defend it so fervently.

 

Taking it back to the topic at hand, Duality greatly improves Equinox's potential as a DPS frame, when used with the right weapon. And unlike Peaceful Provocation, normal Equinox gameplay does not punish you for switching forms. Mend & Maim is designed to be deactivated regularly, which gives you ample opportunity to switch. Duality's specter is also vastly more effective at actually killing individual targets to build up damage for Maim than your own weapon, and both Duality and Maim's stored damage are independent of ability strength, making it easy to build high range and max duration.

[(XBOX)X da BLaCC 1]

I love it cosmetically becoming the operator and splitting into two different entities is awesome.

[Chatv71e]

5 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Taking it back to the topic at hand, Duality greatly improves Equinox's potential as a DPS frame, when used with the right weapon. And unlike Peaceful Provocation, normal Equinox gameplay does not punish you for switching forms. Mend & Maim is designed to be deactivated regularly, which gives you ample opportunity to switch. Duality's specter is also vastly more effective at actually killing individual targets to build up damage for Maim than your own weapon, and both Duality and Maim's stored damage are independent of ability strength, making it easy to build high range and max duration.

That is correct. Spectre with properly modded strong weapon can take down high level enemies more effectively that even other players. And what is more important on a long level 200+ missions, it doesn't run out of ammo. Even if your gun has 0 ammo, you still can summon spectre with infinite clip over and over. And once it about to kill the enemy you can turn on your Maim and fill it up for few millions of damage right away.

[tarfeef101]

14 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

 

  Hide contents

- Snip -

Taking it back to the topic at hand, Duality greatly improves Equinox's potential as a DPS frame, when used with the right weapon. And unlike Peaceful Provocation, normal Equinox gameplay does not punish you for switching forms. Mend & Maim is designed to be deactivated regularly, which gives you ample opportunity to switch. Duality's specter is also vastly more effective at actually killing individual targets to build up damage for Maim than your own weapon, and both Duality and Maim's stored damage are independent of ability strength, making it easy to build high range and max duration.

About that topic at hand: make the spectre not just stand there doing nothing more than 60% of the time, and I'll use it. Cause that's what it normally does for me. And if you want DPS from spectres, then nekros is far more effective, considering you get an army. Which can also protect your &#! too (although I personally hate all that extra S#&$ on my screen so I'm not a personal fan of nekros)

[Chatv71e]

30 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

. And if you want DPS from spectres, then nekros is far more effective, considering you get an army.

Nekros spectres DPS. Nice joke.

[AcceptYourDeath]

On 20.9.2017 at 4:41 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

The biggest problem is that if you are watching the specter and not attacking, it tends to just follow and take your lead standing around.

Yeah I think this is misleading to alot of players testing such a build in simulacrum. Once you start spectating it, it kinda gets into idle-mode like kubrows do. And this specter is actually stupidly strong with certain weapons. 

However a duality build is still not legit, which is really unfortunate. If I remember correctly you can push it`s lifetime to about 15 seconds? For an augment towards a #1 skill it is really good in comparison. Problem is you have to sacrifice your build to something "stupid" comprimising everything else sort of. 

If [DE] would change its stupporn mindset (and yes they are 101% stubborn in this case) about changing augments every now and then, Duality is a prime example for giving some variety to a Warframe in playstyle. Isn`t this the whole point of augments? 

It is such a shame they often don`t capitalize on their ideas they already have with the minimum effort of changing some numbers and values. 

Duality Equinox COULD be a thing!  

Edited September 22, 2017 by AcceptYourDeath

[tarfeef101]

45 minutes ago, Chatv71e said:

Nekros spectres DPS. Nice joke.

All spectres as DPS, or really anything are a joke. but it's still better than duality. if you want DPS, bring a saryn, mesa, octavia, etc. 

but the best DPS in the game was not the topic of this post

[Chatv71e]

5 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

All spectres as DPS, or really anything are a joke. but it's still better than duality. if you want DPS, bring a saryn, mesa, octavia, etc. 

but the best DPS in the game was not the topic of this post

You do realize that Duality copies the mods of your weapon? It kills level 100 corrupted heavy gunner eximus in about 3 seconds. Give it Amprex Atomos or Tonkor and it will clear a room in a flash. This is not Vapor Spectre. And it's damage is not a joke.

I managed to outdamage Mesa and Octavia with duality by just using  1 and nothing else in ODD. Don't think I can outdamage Satyn (never had a chance to try) because she can hit enemis through walls, while Duality require sight of enemy, but after a certain point when enemies wont die right away, it sure will rise in DPS.

As for the topic, my point is - Duality is a viable end game build and might even be better than regular power-range Equinox.

 

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

origionaly i was a duality build user, its pretty fun

i sued to use before simulor /nerf and had it so when spectar fired simulor id combine mine with it

the orbs from the spectar is 400% damage amped , when i recombined mine ..things just vaporized 

after nerf i just use 3rd augment 

[Archistopheles]

On 9/20/2017 at 6:01 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

Turns out that if you mod for duration, the specter can be rather helpful, and is actually kind of fun to use.

You're welcome.

https://forums.warframe.com/profile/98134-archistopheles/?tab=field_core_pfield_1

[zehne]

Specter AI is just too bad to use it, i've tried a few times and ultimately went back to peaceful.

And it's not just about the AI, if you take into account that the specter walks/jogs around while players almost literally fly it means the actual time the specter will engage the enemies is significantly less.  Unless you are fighting hard targets or doing something like a defense where the specter doesn't need to move it will be rendered almost completely useless.

The only plus side to the specter is that when it fires a good weapon it can kill things quickly.  But if I wanted only that i'd use my power strength mini-archwing (titania).  Who can obliterate enemies at range en masse.

 

On the whole peaceful aura deal, if you build specifically for it equinox becomes fairly tanky with low energy requirements (orbs are enough to maintain indefinitely).   Build I use tops out at 74% slow and still has room for Armor + Vitality.  Energy costs are low so I can and do sometimes use sleep on a regular basis (like to 1 shot CL nox).  Damage is done with my weapons not my powers, but with a super large range on a 74% slow most enemies don't even consider firing/can't until they are in my aura.  Also due to my power range/efficiency/strn if i'm so inclined to I can swap dayform and buff/maim.  Even level 30-40's will die from my maim and I can keep it up long enough for orbs to keep me going most the time.

Edited September 22, 2017 by zehne

[Chatv71e]

That is true, spectre performs the best when being stationary. But there are more missions than defense where you need to hold position. 

And you are not restricted in uses of your other abilities and weapons yourself. Spectre will acumulate damage for your Maim. You can throw away some big aoe Rage. If you getting swarmed by enemies, switch to night and Rest entire room, then summon Spectre with melee to perform finishers, heal up your alies, etc.

Grab Mutalist quanta, boost up your Spectre insane damage even more with the bubble. Give Spectre Zakti so it would open stuff to finishers for you. There are lots of utility weapons to think of.

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, Archistopheles said:

You're welcome.

https://forums.warframe.com/profile/98134-archistopheles/?tab=field_core_pfield_1

Awesome! Good idea. It would be nice if they implemented more unique suggestions like this

Edited September 22, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Archistopheles]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Awesome! Good idea. It would be nice if they implemented more unique suggestions like this

Seems like I made it just under the wire.

The DC doesn't vote on abilities anymore, they just suggest them, and DE picks whatever they want.

[tarfeef101]

On 9/22/2017 at 11:10 AM, Chatv71e said:

You do realize that Duality copies the mods of your weapon? It kills level 100 corrupted heavy gunner eximus in about 3 seconds. Give it Amprex Atomos or Tonkor and it will clear a room in a flash. This is not Vapor Spectre. And it's damage is not a joke.

I managed to outdamage Mesa and Octavia with duality by just using  1 and nothing else in ODD. Don't think I can outdamage Satyn (never had a chance to try) because she can hit enemis through walls, while Duality require sight of enemy, but after a certain point when enemies wont die right away, it sure will rise in DPS.

As for the topic, my point is - Duality is a viable end game build and might even be better than regular power-range Equinox.

 

Again... until the AI in this game is actually both artifical AND intelligent, that is too unreliable. Show me unedited footage of a duality spectre consistently being productive in say, a 30 minute match and I'll agree it is then useful. But until that point, to me, it is not a viable build. I'd much rather have consistently realizable benefit than one that could actually contribute as much as an extra teammate, but also just stare at a wall for whatever duration as well.

[Kusungphak]

Will give it a try. Lately I have been playing a lot of maim equinox out damaging most other frames. But that is a very high range and efficiency build. 

[Obviousclone]

I actually use a duality equinox build for farming the index.

 

sure, there might be more competitive mesa builds and chroma builds and banshee builds out there....

 

but mine has got to be the laziest,easiest build to use.

 

It's stats are something like 200% duration 130% strength 160% efficiency, with energy siphon and negative range. and of course the duality mod.

I usually run it with shotguns like the hek, vaykor hek, tigris prime.

If you're really poor/low MR, a catalysed hek with a scattering justice build will do fine for carrying medium risk.

 

you basically enter the index, pick up some spheres (red spheres also give energy because of equinox passive) or wait for energy siphon to get you enough energy to press 1. Then press 1 once you have sufficient energy (it's like a 10 energy cost skill, dirt freaking cheap cost and always there if you have energy siphon aura) and let your clone do the work of taking out enemies while you pick up credits/wander around to find more enemies.

what's hilarious is the clone can for whatever reason use it's aimbot to split tigris shots across multi targets instantaneously beyond human reaction times. Also it seems to have perfect aimbot sniper accuracy when using the hek for across the map instakills.

Most of the time, I walk into random index games, score 20-30 kills with 0 points cashed in, with, quite hilariously 0 shots fired. All done by the clone (obviously). Pretty much the only time I don't topscore is when someone super mobile comes in and drags away the spawns.

and yeah, with 130% strength the clone basically takes my tigris prime, uses the mods I have put into it, multiplies it's already stupidly high base damage by 400% and oneshots down level 80 medium risk index bursas with aimbot level accuracy without me having to aim.

 

oh and I haven't even put forma into my equinox nor have I unlocked the exilus slot so this build is very very lazy. Perhaps I should do that someday for equinox.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Obviousclone

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, Obviousclone said:

I actually use a duality equinox build for farming the index.

 

sure, there might be more competitive mesa builds and chroma builds and banshee builds out there....

 

but mine has got to be the laziest,easiest build to use.

 

It's stats are something like 200% duration 130% strength 160% efficiency, with energy siphon and negative range. and of course the duality mod.

I usually run it with shotguns like the hek, vaykor hek, tigris prime.

If you're really poor/low MR, a catalysed hek with a scattering justice build will do fine for carrying medium risk.

 

you basically enter the index, pick up some spheres (red spheres also give energy because of equinox passive) or wait for energy siphon to get you enough energy to press 1. Then press 1 once you have sufficient energy (it's like a 10 energy cost skill, dirt freaking cheap cost and always there if you have energy siphon aura) and let your clone do the work of taking out enemies while you pick up credits/wander around to find more enemies.

what's hilarious is the clone can for whatever reason use it's aimbot to split tigris shots across multi targets instantaneously beyond human reaction times. Also it seems to have perfect aimbot sniper accuracy when using the hek for across the map instakills.

Most of the time, I walk into random index games, score 20-30 kills with 0 points cashed in, with, quite hilariously 0 shots fired. All done by the clone (obviously). Pretty much the only time I don't topscore is when someone super mobile comes in and drags away the spawns.

and yeah, with 130% strength the clone basically takes my tigris prime, uses the mods I have put into it, multiplies it's already stupidly high base damage by 400% and oneshots down level 80 medium risk index bursas with aimbot level accuracy without me having to aim.

 

oh and I haven't even put forma into my equinox nor have I unlocked the exilus slot so this build is very very lazy. Perhaps I should do that someday for equinox.

That's cool and not bad for a 1.