Zephyr is cool, but what changes should be made?

[phoenix1992]

12 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

- Zephyr is already really really good, if you don't know the frame that much don't ask for changes, I guess

Citation and sources in order to confirm that statement? 
We are in U21 (soon 22), Zephyr is still in U16, one of the main issues is that the "thing" that made Zephyr unique and interesting among frames was reworked (the Parkour 2 system) and her power levels are still living in that u16-17 era as well. 

As couple of players mentioned, Titania took her main "theme" of flying, and while a "wind" theme is cool as hell, it falls under the same scaling trap as Ember and (pre rework) Hydro do. Clean type of Damage (in that case Impact) is just meh.

Now if you can chain abilities (like spamming her 1 buffs her 4), or swap to Slash or enemies are open finishers or... honestly a lot of things. This that alas even right now other frames do.

[Xgomme]

3 minutes ago, yles9056 said:

What does she offer to her team in sortie missions other than Turbulence and Jet Stream?

Well what you said (projectile speed buff + speed and cover for the team) or a big zone of cc with 4 (and any proc, or proc only with the 4th aug) and 2 can pack mobs and even nuke them if they're not that high level (but it will still remove a good chunk of life to HL mobs, pack them, and cc)

And she's fast and with her 3 she's a good maid to revive downed allies

[yles9056]

3 minutes ago, GuezMan said:

That is definitely true but while that is, other frames dont do much in that area but are viable to solo play or at least efficient in combat but not too contributive to the team as a whole.

At least those frames can deal nice damage and has some utilities.

Ivara has Artemis Bow and sleep arrows. Ash has Smoke Bomb and is good at killing heavy unit.

[GuezMan]

1 hour ago, Xgomme said:

Stop exploding my messages to answer total clem
Slam attack is clearly slower, you slam, eh... And you can't control preciselly, it means I can't stealth dive and cut someone with my Venka if you change it you way
I'm assuming because your opinions are the one of the guy "flapping around sometime with her" ...
Try heavy impact divebomb vortex build, try corrosive armor scrapping 8 tornados, try huge cc build, try augmented turbulence to buff your team, try, try

All viable build possibilities, but you really cant deny her 1st and 2nd have little to no use, and while 2 abilities are a warframes only use and not entirely even that good, then a rework should be thought about.

[Xgomme]

4 minutes ago, GuezMan said:

All viable build possibilities, but you really cant deny her 1st and 2nd have little to no use, and while 2 abilities are a warframes only use and not entirely even that good, then a rework should be thought about.

Well my first message here is asking for changes too, she's clearly clunky with her 1 and 2 now.
But merging those with divebomb when you look down would be horrible, since all the aspects of her 1 and 2 are good, they're just at some clunky places and wasting a new ability slot
Cause I'm ok to merge divebomb with the big jump from tailwind when you're on the floor. Because they work well with each other and won't nerf tailwind gameplay (since I want it as a roll, out of the kit. It's pure mobility)

Edited September 25, 2017 by Xgomme

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

10 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

Stop exploding my messages to answer total clem

I like to answer your points one by one. 

10 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

Slam attack is clearly slower

You are loosing credibility when you say this you know that. 

10 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

And you can't control preciselly,

You aim at a space on the floor and you drop to it. How is that not precise? 

10 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

it means I can't stealth dive and cut someone with my Venka if you change it you way

So you are confirming what I thought; you don't want a rework because you're scared of change.

10 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

I'm assuming because your opinions are the one of the guy "flapping around sometime with her"

So you just assume everyone who wants a Zephyr rework, only spent a week playing with her. This is the logic I've seen quite a few times when frame reworks are incoming. It's not very intelligent.

10 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

Try heavy impact divebomb vortex build, try corrosive armor scrapping 8 tornadoes, try huge cc build, try augmented turbulence to buff your team, try, try

Tried all of those. My opinion still remains the same; her first, second and fourth need a rework. I know it may seem impossible to you, but not everyone thinks Zephyr is 100% perfect.

Edited September 25, 2017 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[Xgomme]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

I like to answer your points one by one. 

You are loosing credibility when you say this you know that. 

You aim at a space on the floor and you drop to it. How is that not precise? 

So you are confirming what I thought; you don't want a rework because you're scared of change.

So you just assume everyone who wants a Zephyr rework, only spent a week playing with her. This is the logic I've seen quite a few times when frame reworks are incoming. It's not very intelligent.

Tried all of those. My opinion still remains the same. I know it may seem impossible to you, but not everyone thinks Zephyr is 100% perfect.

Slam attack is a melee attack, your character will do an animation at start and on the floor, with a recovery time after.
Tailwind is a mobility move, you can aim, travel a distance, and then use any of you melee attack precisely and instantly. Coupled with her passive it means you can dive to a mob (even if he's not JUST UNDER you) and cut him in its back even before he can do anything, and repress tailwind to flap to a new target
My first message here is asking for a rework
She's not perfect

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

8 minutes ago, GuezMan said:

All viable build possibilities, but you really cant deny her 1st and 2nd have little to no use, and while 2 abilities are a warframes only use and not entirely even that good, then a rework should be thought about.

Turbulence has had it's issues in the past but now it's in a good place so IMO it doesn't really need a change. It's a barrel of fun with her Jet Stream Augment and a projectile weapon. Tailwind and Divebomb definitely need some attention though.

[yles9056]

Tornadoes definitely needs some fixing.

People hate it when someone stops them from shooting enemies. Just look at Limbo's Stasis.

Tornadoes also creates heavy screen shake.

What's more, tornadoes block ally bullets.

It's a very team-unfriendly ability.

Edited September 25, 2017 by yles9056

[Hecro]

4 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

Slam attack is a melee attack, your character will do an animation at start and on the floor, with a recovery time after.
Tailwind is a mobility move, you can aim, travel a distance, and then use any of you melee attack precisely and instantly. Coupled with her passive it means you can dive to a mob (even if he's not JUST UNDER you) and cut him in its back even before he can do anything, and repress tailwind to flap to a new target
My first message here is asking for a rework
She's not perfect

How are you even going to keep up with such immense energy costs?

[Atekron]

She's fine, but her passive should be taken off(so annoying), and her second ability is kind of useless, and she very vulnerable to melee units, and turbulens sometimes fails.. Yeah, Zephyr is very cool and fun to play, she's like Wukong but not boring, and melee.. but she has tornado. One of the strongest frames in a game. People talk bad things on her, almost as often as on Mag, but they wrong, those frames are actually very good.

[Xgomme]

Just now, Hecro said:

How are you even going to keep up with such immense energy costs?

With high efficiency it's not immense

 

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

11 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

Slam attack is a melee attack, your character will do an animation at start and on the floor, with a recovery time after.

There is no point in using it when trying to attack enemies underneath you when a slam attack is much quicker. The recovery time for a slam attack is barely noticeable unless you're nitpicking, which you are apparently doing.

11 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

Tailwind is a mobility move, you can aim, travel a distance, and then use any of you melee attack precisely and instantly

And yet I've always found it far less useful than just pointing down with my Fragor Prime.

11 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

and repress tailwind to flap to a new target

You must have some serious energy build if you are doing this every time you go into a mission. Also, you make it sound like Tailwind is easy to control or even useful in tight spaces. Say that enemy you are looking at goes round a corner or ducks down. Tailwind is very unreliable in tight maps.

11 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

My first message here is asking for a rework

And yet your messages give off a very heavy impression that you'd much prefer small QoL tweaks and not really changing anything significant.

11 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

She's not perfect

So lets try and make her better. 

6 minutes ago, Hecro said:

How are you even going to keep up with such immense energy costs?

I'm wondering that myself. Xgomme must have a truckload of energy Pizzas if that is how they play Zephyr every mission.

Edited September 25, 2017 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[Xgomme]

Quotes are a pain...

Still not valid, how can you compare something free to a forced straight down attack with a recovery time ?
What you ask (merging 1 and 2) is not better... It seems like the good and easy way but it will ruin most aspects of the frame

 

I just use what the game give me when I want to spam energy, 175% efficiency is a good start... With a buffed aura with a drift exilus you won't even need any focus or arcane

the thing is I suggest you to try all the fun things I talk about in this thread, and after, you'll maybe not ask the same rework 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Xgomme

[GuezMan]

1 hour ago, Xgomme said:

Quotes are a pain...

Still not valid, how can you compare something free to a forced straight down attack with a recovery time ?
What you ask (merging 1 and 2) is not better... It seems like the good and easy way but it will ruin most aspects of the frame

 

I just use what the game give me when I want to spam energy, 175% efficiency is a good start... With a buffed aura with a drift exilus you won't even need any focus or arcane

the thing is I suggest you to try all the fun things I talk about in this thread, and after, you'll maybe not ask the same rework 

As much as the things you suggested are fun and good they are not very inclusive of all the abilities, which to me is a problem, because I like to havethe entire meal be good.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

1 minute ago, Xgomme said:

Still not valid, how can you compare something free to a forced straight down attack with a recovery time ?

Tailwind is not free. The slam attack recovery time is not a major issue.

5 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

What you ask (merging 1 and 2) is not better... It seems like the good and easy way but it will ruin most aspects of the frame

How?

7 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

The thing is I suggest you to try all the fun things I talk about in this thread, and after, you'll maybe not ask the same rework

Did you not listen when I said I'd already tried them all? The conclusion I have arrived at is not the same as yours. Simple as that. 

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

@Xgomme Why can't you just accept that not every Zephyr player shares the same viewpoint. We are not all birds of a feather (pun intended).

[GuezMan]

Yknow alongside maybe being able to fly, what if your abilities were affected by whether you were flying or not, sortuv like an equinox vibe except more zephyr esque

 

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

Just now, GuezMan said:

Yknow alongside maybe being able to fly, what if your abilities were affected by whether you were flying or not, sortuv like an equinox vibe except more zephyr esque

You mean like something similar to Embers passive where her damage is boosted when she's on fire? 

[GuezMan]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

You mean like something similar to Embers passive where her damage is boosted when she's on fire? 

maybe more like when on the ground you make multiple tornadoes, but in the air/flying you make 1 big one, or something like that.

 

[Xgomme]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

@Xgomme Why can't you just accept that not every Zephyr player shares the same viewpoint. We are not all birds of a feather (pun intended).

I'm not a dragon, can I ruin Chroma ?
You're just randomly designing things, without thinking about what you already have ingame.
If you merge both you lose half of what is interesting in those two abilities.

And I won't accept that meh argument that you "came with another  viewpoint" when you're basically scrapping everything about the frame to add, nothing ? You're doing it the wrong way. Start with what you have, sort it in a way the gameplay will be the best and then add things...

[Xgomme]

40 minutes ago, GuezMan said:

As much as the things you suggested are fun and good they are not very inclusive of all the abilities, which to me is a problem, because I like to havethe entire meal be good.

All those things are centered around an ability, with all the other ones still working. And with the rework I suggest in my first post here, even more. But yep some synergies here and there could be a good thing, totally not against that. 
But when DE have already a lot of working, fun and unique things on a frame it's kinda horrible to scrap them imo

[Xgomme]

42 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Did you not listen when I said I'd already tried them all? The conclusion I have arrived at is not the same as yours. Simple as that. 

Clearly doubt about that when you can't even understand how a slam attack is working and why it's more valuable to tailwind down instead of this  

[Hecro]

1 hour ago, Xgomme said:

With high efficiency it's not immense

 

Your bird ends up falling into the ground sooner or later unless you run an energy pizza build.

The whole thing that Lotus says about "Zephyr barely keeps her feet on the ground" is absolute fake. Even if you run high efficiency you'll find yourself making a big effort just to cover the -60%~ on duration. If you try to work on duration, you'll end up damaging your reach. If you work on your reach, you'll end up wrecking your damage. If you work on your damage, you will have already come up to the starting point, where you need efficiency.

Should you dare to get off this vicious circle, you'd find yourself economizing your energy.

[Xgomme]

1 minute ago, Hecro said:

Your bird ends up falling into the ground sooner or later unless you run an energy pizza build.

The whole thing that Lotus says about "Zephyr barely keeps her feet on the ground" is absolute fake. Even if you run high efficiency you'll find yourself making a big effort just to cover the -60%~ on duration. If you try to work on duration, you'll end up damaging your reach. If you work on your reach, you'll end up wrecking your damage. If you work on your damage, you will have already come up to the starting point, where you need efficiency.

Should you dare to get off this vicious circle, you'd find yourself economizing your energy.

You don't need to constantly spam since her passive let her glide, and you have walls in Warframe, any wall latch will reset your airtime like if you touched the floor, so can do another bullet jump
And yep, her building is tricky, but you can totally do enough working builds 

For example, divebomb paired with heavy impact will make heavy impact the principal source of dmgs. The speed of your divebomb will make it blast like if you fall from way higher, and since Zephyr can already go pretty high... 
 

This vicious circle is actually why some frames are trickier to build, and why some people still think they're not that good