It's Time to Break the Pattern & Actually DO Something With Your Developments

[DiabolusUrsus]

We've all seen this story pan out before: DE adds some drastic and radical new mechanic, then lets it rot seemingly for eternity after the hype dies down instead of polishing and refining it into something useful that actually complements the game experience.

Dark Sectors. Invasions. Melee Channeling. Archwing. Sharkwing.

Sure, these things get occasional minor improvements to rewards or the most glaring mechanical flaws, but that's it. They're mostly static.

Plains of Eidolon is a major proof-of-concept step that DE can use to drastically change the world of Warframe for the better:

NOTE: One of the BEST things about PoE is that it makes the battlefield feel more like a living, breathing world and less like a narrow set-piece. The chaos of dropships, enemy air support, and artillery is amazing. (It needs some balancing still, but that's another story.) If nothing else it makes the game feel much better to play. Capitalize on this.

• It's time to move away from procedural generation as an entire world-generating tool and use it to generate structures fit into an open worldspace. Planetside missions? Inside the worldspace. Shipside missions? Create ship layouts based on different ship "Classes" with maybe 1-3 variants for a bit of diversity. Don't stop there, either. Make tiles destructible in the worldspaces. Let us actually see that Grineer base collapse after we sabotage it, or let it gradually be leveled as it hosts intense fighting. The structures should be generated away from player presence and there should be incursions that let players interrupt Grineer construction teams setting up new bases or operations.

NOTE: For this reason, DE should avoid creating non-instanced worldspaces with a bajillion players. Keep it to 4 so that the generation routines can run safely out of sight.

• Continue to refine and expand on the mission storytelling. Instead of randomly have us searching for a downed drone to escort, then randomly looking for caches, then picking up some generic Grineer officer schmuck to go kidnap with Lotus' dialogue only sorta tying it all together... generate missions in coherent objectives. Instead of randomly finding some downed drone, let us invade a base and commandeer an AA turret to shoot it down. Instead of telling us to scavenger-hunt unguarded caches, let us assault a supply train! Instead of forcing us to rush into a camp and kill things until a commander shows up, let us climb up on the nearest mountain and snipe his sorry butt in his own tent!
• Integrate existing types: Excavation (with additional planet-specific or biome-specific resources instead of plain-ol-Cryotic). Procedurally generated structures within a designated area used for Capture/Exterminate/Spy/Sabotage/etc. missions. Planetside ARCHWING missions letting us perform air support or hit strategic ground targets. Planetside invasions. Archwing support FOR INVASIONS. The possibilities are freakin' endless... don't squander them. Please.
• Dark. Sectors. Remember this thread? Dedicated worldspace. Procedurally-generated progression-blocker objectives and pathways. Day-night cycle dependent environmental hazards and enemies. Random Grineer/Corpus interference delivered by dropship. Archwing-based emergency extraction. That is all.
• Unique. Boss. Arenas. NOT limited by needing to connect to a bunch of different tiles. Sure, don't spawn the arenas outside of Assassination, but it would be pretty sweet to climb up a mountain to fight Hek on Everest and fight him somewhere other than an overgrown Grineer take on a UFC ring.
• Assassins that don't spawn right on top of you waiting to be dogpiled and instead hunt you down in the worldspace.
• Actual air support from your landing craft, with Ordis at the helm. Now Ordis can live out his dreams of dreams of bloody battle.

I'll probably add to this as things go on, but who else likes the sound of some proper worldbuilding with gameplay integration? I believe that the best way DE can alleviate grind without actually touching RNG is by polishing the game into something that is so compelling and engaging on its own that the loot is just a plus... not a sole driving motivation. Still, needed to word-vomit these ideas sooner rather than later.

Please DE, actually do something useful with all these ground-breaking development stunts.

[DiabolusUrsus]

*shameless bump b/c I posted this late at night*

Also, brainstorming would be appreciated.

[BlackCoMerc]

Dynamic. Warfronts.

Control Towers throughout the map, Firefall style. Each tower offers controlling factions bonuses. Players get more loot, increased radar range, more XP, etc. Enemies get more reinforcement, higher damage, better units, etc. 

Enemies spawn with intent to capture towers. As they do, more enemies spawn. When a tower is taken by players, it cannot be retaken for a set duration.

Faction and Syndicate Merc invasion. Shifting battles. 

Multi tear, randomly generated missions and requirements. Capture leads to infiltration or to assassination. Cleared base grants data that leads to sabotage.

Use the open world as a base for shifting, dynamic content generated by systems. Infinite replayability with near zero Dev time.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Dynamic. Warfronts.

Control Towers throughout the map, Firefall style. Each tower offers controlling factions bonuses. Players get more loot, increased radar range, more XP, etc. Enemies get more reinforcement, higher damage, better units, etc. 

Enemies spawn with intent to capture towers. As they do, more enemies spawn. When a tower is taken by players, it cannot be retaken for a set duration.

Faction and Syndicate Merc invasion. Shifting battles. 

Multi tear, randomly generated missions and requirements. Capture leads to infiltration or to assassination. Cleared base grants data that leads to sabotage.

Use the open world as a base for shifting, dynamic content generated by systems. Infinite replayability with near zero Dev time.

I can always count on you, thanks.

Dynamic war fronts sounds great, and definitely something that would improve long-term invasions instead of requiring players to repeat it 3 times.

Still, I'd be cautious about implementing it outside of specific game modes; one of the most frustrating things about comparable games (Planetside 2 comes to mind) is having territories waffle back and forth seemingly as soon as you leave them. I don't enjoy Warframe's own Interception for that very reason.

Absolutely everything else sounds great, though.

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, DiabolusUrsus said:

I can always count on you, thanks.

Dynamic war fronts sounds great, and definitely something that would improve long-term invasions instead of requiring players to repeat it 3 times.

Still, I'd be cautious about implementing it outside of specific game modes; one of the most frustrating things about comparable games (Planetside 2 comes to mind) is having territories waffle back and forth seemingly as soon as you leave them. I don't enjoy Warframe's own Interception for that very reason.

Absolutely everything else sounds great, though.

Thanks.

That's a good point. Too much back and forth, and Warfronts are indeed pointless. Both Firefall and PlanetSide 2 left me cold for the same reason.

So balance there would be key. Maybe at certain intervals throughout the day, Major Offensives would initiate. Maybe...every four hours. So no one misses out. 

Once those Offensives conclude, you got mop up, dynamic missions and side activities, but enemy spawns drop back to normal for a few hours.

I just think that creating systems to generate dynamic content is the future of online games, seeing as no Dev can keep pace with demand for content.

[Dhuem]

For me i would like to see some actual proper end game content

other then the fashion frame warframe super model end game. 

Don't get me wrong i like warframe but it would be nice to have

something to look forward to other then becoming a warframe 

super model. 

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, Dhuem said:

For me i would like to see some actual proper end game content

other then the fashion frame warframe super model end game. 

Don't get me wrong i like warframe but it would be nice to have

something to look forward to other then becoming a warframe 

super model. 

The problem is finding an end game that suits Warframe.

Raids weren't it. They're pretty awful. Scripted, do it the same every time puzzles aren't fun. 

Sorties are just normal missions, made intentionally annoying through damage sponges and arbitrary, unfun limitations and conditions.

PvP definitely isn't it.

So what sort of content fits end game for Warframe?

I think k it could be dynamic wars. Maybe over open worlds. Maybe for solar rails. 

Or maybe Endless Raids: large tile sets that end with an entrance to the next, slightly harder but more rewarding level. Extermination missions, where you decide how far to push into enemy bases, with chances to extract every level and keep your rewards. But if you run out of revives while fighting, you lose stuff you earned. Maybe you drop it, with one chance to go back for it. Diablo Souls!

I don't know what the answer is. But I do not know, it's not RNG grinding. Not for Rivens. Not for Primes. Not for Play payouts. End game needs to be something players WANT to do, preferably the ONE aspect of the game not tied to the increasingly intrusive, fun strangling business model.

[Volinus7]

Here's the pattern 

1. Release ultra tedious grinding 

2. Quick whales pay real fast 

3. Reduce ultra tedious to tedious grinding 

4. Fanboys clap their hands for reduced grinding 

Get both money and fame?? 

 

[SenorClipClop]

I don't always ask for future updates to have what I want in them, but when I do... I preface my ideas with direct insults to the developers' past work and efforts?

...

...

...

You gotta work the room a little, Tenno.

[BlackCoMerc]

2 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I don't always ask for future updates to have what I want in them, but when I do... I preface my ideas with direct insults to the developers' past work and efforts?

...

...

...

You gotta work the room a little, Tenno.

The OP isn't wrong. Half Baked then abandoned has been the development process for years now. It's not an insult; it's factual observation.

Not being snide. Or rude. It is what it is. And frankly, abandoning Raids, Archwing and Lunaro is probably a GOOD thing.

[SenorClipClop]

3 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

The OP isn't wrong.

It doesn't matter how wrong the OP is or isn't. DE is just much more geared to listen to positive constructive feedback. Most of the dev team has explicitly stated that when a thread takes on a negative or cynical tone, they just stop reading. Feedback threads are a dime a dozen, and DE doesn't care to sift through pages of peanut gallery that makes them feel bad about what they put effort into. Voicing feedback that you want more dynamic interaction with an open and ever-changing gamespace in Warframe is good. Peppering your post about design with complaints about balance is 'stop reading' material. Framing your whole post around the insinuation "DE, don't screw this update up and let it rot like all the other side-features in your game", that's also 'stop reading' material.

It's not about being clever or correct. It's about trying to spread your ideas to the people that you want to have hear them in the way that makes them want that too, because it's their say what happens. Encouraging your spouse to exercise goes a whole lot smoother if you don't begin that conversation with "you're fat". You wouldn't, while asking your mom to make you your favourite dinner, list off the dishes she makes that you think are gross.

Know your audience. Work the room.

[BlackCoMerc]

19 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

It doesn't matter how wrong the OP is or isn't. DE is just much more geared to listen to positive constructive feedback. Most of the dev team has explicitly stated that when a thread takes on a negative or cynical tone, they just stop reading. Feedback threads are a dime a dozen, and DE doesn't care to sift through pages of peanut gallery that makes them feel bad about what they put effort into. Voicing feedback that you want more dynamic interaction with an open and ever-changing gamespace in Warframe is good. Peppering your post about design with complaints about balance is 'stop reading' material. Framing your whole post around the insinuation "DE, don't screw this update up and let it rot like all the other side-features in your game", that's also 'stop reading' material.

It's not about being clever or correct. It's about trying to spread your ideas to the people that you want to have hear them in the way that makes them want that too, because it's their say what happens. Encouraging your spouse to exercise goes a whole lot smoother if you don't begin that conversation with "you're fat". You wouldn't, while asking your mom to make you your favourite dinner, list off the dishes she makes that you think are gross.

Know your audience. Work the room.

I don't disagree with you. Don't get me wrong. And the OP is a bit harsh. But you have to give respect to get it and lately, DE hasn't done that.

Wasting our time with more grind. Focus on stuff almost no one wants.

To borrow your metaphor: your Mom also isn't likely to intentionally keep making all the dishes you and your family despise while asking for sweet platitudes from an adoring audience. DE should think about that.

[Dhuem]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

The problem is finding an end game that suits Warframe.

Raids weren't it. They're pretty awful. Scripted, do it the same every time puzzles aren't fun. 

Sorties are just normal missions, made intentionally annoying through damage sponges and arbitrary, unfun limitations and conditions.

PvP definitely isn't it.

So what sort of content fits end game for Warframe?

I think k it could be dynamic wars. Maybe over open worlds. Maybe for solar rails. 

Or maybe Endless Raids: large tile sets that end with an entrance to the next, slightly harder but more rewarding level. Extermination missions, where you decide how far to push into enemy bases, with chances to extract every level and keep your rewards. But if you run out of revives while fighting, you lose stuff you earned. Maybe you drop it, with one chance to go back for it. Diablo Souls!

I don't know what the answer is. But I do not know, it's not RNG grinding. Not for Rivens. Not for Primes. Not for Play payouts. End game needs to be something players WANT to do, preferably the ONE aspect of the game not tied to the increasingly intrusive, fun strangling business model.

At one point i did consider suggesting something for a proper endgame

which would fit well for warframe, maybe. It would be something like Guilds

would be able to build a Orokin Portal for there Dojo's so they would be able 

to travel to another solar system and fight for Territory against an "Enemy faction"

And the story plot would go like Lotus learned that Vor is trying to rebuild his army

in another solar system to take revenge on those involved in (Spoiler)killing the queen so 

end up taking the fight to him. and from there lotus will have the tenno band togather

and take the fight to him. where you would fight over territory and claim it for resources

for equipment and all that jazz.... And thats all i got lol. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Dhuem

[DiabolusUrsus]

41 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I don't always ask for future updates to have what I want in them, but when I do... I preface my ideas with direct insults to the developers' past work and efforts?

...

...

...

You gotta work the room a little, Tenno.

I see where you're coming from, but consider:

I did not insult their work. In fact, I acknowledged the sheer scale of some of their endeavors and specifically criticized their utilization of those accomplishments.

The tone of my post is a deliberate rhetorical choice, not an inability to sugarcoat criticism. I have spent my time prettying up suggestions to be more palatable before, and seen zero indication that it garners any greater degree of consideration. I have also seen far too many players painstakingly write threads detailing great suggestions (e.g., invasions) detailing all the possible pitfalls and how to avoid them only for DE to walk straight into said pitfalls for years.

Point being, when they make it clear that they're actually paying attention to something other than trivial "reduce the grind" complaints, then it will be worth my time to add flowers and cookies to all of my feedback.

Until then, if they completely disregard valuable ideas because they don't like the word choice or tone, that's THEIR loss.

[BlackCoMerc]

5 minutes ago, Dhuem said:

At one point i did consider suggesting something for a proper endgame

which would fit well for warframe, maybe. It would be something like Guilds

would be able to build a Orokin Portal for there Dojo's so they would be able 

to travel to another solar system and fight for Territory against an "Enemy faction"

And the story plot would go like Lotus learned that Vor is trying to rebuild his army

in another solar system to take revenge on those involved in killing the queen so 

end up taking the fight to him. and from there lotus will have the tenno band togather

and take the fight to him. where you would fight over territory and claim it for resources

for equipment and all that jazz.... And thats all i got lol. 

That sounds like the foundation of something cool. Maybe a Warfronts with shifting goals. Dynamic missions generated based on War States. Missions could occasionally have multiple objectives, generated at random or state based. Success and failures could generate more missions or reinforcement on the main, open world battlefield.

Just an idea. Brainstorm from your foundation.

[Dhuem]

That would sound good as well. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Dhuem

[SenorClipClop]

46 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I don't disagree with you. Don't get me wrong. And the OP is a bit harsh. But you have to give respect to get it and lately, DE hasn't done that.

Wasting our time with more grind. Focus on stuff almost no one wants.

To borrow your metaphor: your Mom also isn't likely to intentionally keep making all the dishes you and your family despise while asking for sweet platitudes from an adoring audience. DE should think about that.

DE doesn't have to give us jack! They don't even have to give us this game for free, but they do. It's not about being nice to earn respect or whatever. My point is that in order to get your post read by anyone who matters have it read, it should be free of backhanded talk about those people or their work. Not to earn anything. It's just so that the reader doesn't ignore what you say. Comparing to the "mom" metaphor, DE doesn't ask for anyone to sing their praises, they merely provide a game. It's up to us whether we play it or don't. Eat this or don't, that simple. It's not like feedback is any worse or better depending on how scathing it is or isn't. But know that if it's cast negatively, it's very likely to only be seen by Forums lurkers like us.

36 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Point being, when they make it clear that they're actually paying attention to something other than trivial "reduce the grind" complaints, then it will be worth my time to add flowers and cookies to all of my feedback.

You don't have to add niceties. (Although flattery can go a long way in this world.) But your feedback might actually reach the right eyes if you leave out the stuff that would turn those eyes away.

I'd recommend leaving out jabs at balance of what's out now when you talk about concepts for future possibilities. And having the first sentence in your post be: "We've all seen this story pan out before: DE adds some drastic and radical new mechanic, then lets it rot seemingly for eternity after the hype dies down instead of polishing and refining it into something useful that actually complements the game experience" -- comparing their work to rotting flesh and saying outright that it offers nothing to the game based on your dislike of it, that is -- is just plain rude from one person to another. It may give a clear exposition of where you're coming from to other Forum-dwelling players, but a developer would take one look at that and just stop reading whatever you say.

And when your title includes "Actually DO Something with your Developments", implying that DE's considerable improvements to the game thus far, their years of work, are inconsequential, something like that's going to discourage any creative person you could ever talk to. I know that's not what you meant, but looking at just your title from the Feedback sub, that's exactly how it comes off.

Edited October 17, 2017 by SenorClipClop

[DiabolusUrsus]

5 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

DE doesn't have to give us jack! They don't even have to give us this game for free, but they do. It's not about being nice to earn respect or whatever. My point is that in order to get your post read by anyone who matters have it read, it should be free of backhanded talk about those people. Not to earn anything. It's just that the reader doesn't ignore what you say. Comparing to the "mom" metaphor, DE doesn't ask for anyone to sing their praises, they merely provide a game. It's up to us whether we play it or don't. Eat this or don't, that simple. It's not like feedback is any worse or better now matter how scathing it is or isn't. But know that if it is, it's very likely to only be seen by Forums lurkers like us.

You don't have to add niceties. (Although flattery can go a long way in this world.) But your feedback might actually reach the right eyes if you leave out the stuff that would turn those eyes away.

I'd recommend leaving out jabs at balance of what's out now when you talk about concepts for future possibilities. And having the first sentence in your post be: "We've all seen this story pan out before: DE adds some drastic and radical new mechanic, then lets it rot seemingly for eternity after the hype dies down instead of polishing and refining it into something useful that actually complements the game experience" -- comparing their work to rotting flesh and saying outright that it offers nothing to the game based on your dislike of it, that is -- is just plain rude from one person to another. It may give a clear exposition of where you're coming from to other Forum-dwelling players, but a developer would take one look at that and just stop reading whatever you say.

And when your title includes "Actually DO Something with your Developments", implying that DE's considerable improvements to the game thus far, their years of work, are inconsequential, something like that's going to discourage any creative person you could ever talk to. I know that's not what you meant, but looking at just your title from the Feedback sub, that's exactly how it comes off.

I disagree.

Ever heard of notionphil? Volt_cruelerz? Players like them offered up pages upon pages of excellent and well-supported suggestions aimed at improving Warframe, and while I don't know what happened to Volt I know with certainty that phil burned out on talking to a brick wall. There was never any indication that ANY of their ideas were paid any attention by the devs. I don't entertain any illusions about the likelihood that my ideas are actually making it to the devs or that they'll even care if they do. What I write here is for having fun discussions with other fans, and if the ideas happen to be useful that's all the better. But I'm not going to waste my energy trying to blindly fish for dev attention.

Also, you are mistaken about the rotting (who said anything about flesh...?) figure of speech. It specifically implies that these things have intrinsic value that is going to waste. It's not that the mechanics are rotten, it's that they are being neglected.

So, if you've got any input on my actual ideas please feel free to join the discussion. Elsewise the acceptability of my rhetorical choices is strictly between me and the TOS, and I'm not going to debate you further on this point.

Is my post abrasive? Sure. Is it toxic or non-constructive? Absolutely not. It's simple fact that DE repeatedly expends tremendous resources on massive new expansions that are effectively abandoned almost immediately. The hype gets sales, and then once the sales are done it's time to move on. It's frickin tragic.

[Teridax68]

I very much like the idea of more open worldspaces and a connecting story to missions. I think one of the biggest endgame problems right now in Warframe is that, for all the missions the game throws at you, none of them have any cause or consequence, and the entire in-game world is static. As a result, players only perform missions if they provide some extrinsic reward that interests them, and once players have everything they could possibly want, they have no reason to play until the next update. In turn, this fear of losing player retention has pushed DE to massively pad out its game with grinding, which not only dilutes the entire experience, but also leads to a lot of burnout. Plains of Eidolon is a particularly relevant example of this, as the insane levels of grind (which the hotfixes only partially addressed) are already causing many players to peace out until things improve.

Ultimately, what Warframe needs to look into is perpetual player retention, i.e. a means of keeping players interested in the game independent of new content or personal progression. Grinding only goes so far, and past a certain point does more harm than good. Moreover, making extrinsic rewards and personal progression the only major incentive to continue playing means players are only incentivized to play for a limited time: this can be very long for a game this big, but ultimately players tick all the boxes on their progression list and leave. Veterans in particular end up simply waiting for the next content update to come out, whereupon they rush through everything in a few days, then leave and repeat the process, if they don't eventually drop out entirely. Effectively, Warframe needs to give its players the ability to make an impact on the game outside of their own mastery rank, and do so in a manner that a) feels meaningful, and b) can be repeated an infinite amount of times.

Some players here might remember a game by the name of Firefall: the game's dead now, mostly due to very shady executive decisions, but there was a time when the game was, in my opinion, one of the most promising out there. During its peak, the game had a map a bit larger than the Plains, and had a single faction (the Melding) that controlled everything around it. Not only that, but the Melding would also invade the area, whether by sending out destructive forces of nature, such as tornadoes and wild mutated beasts, or by sending out troops of soldiers that would invade towns and outposts. If players did not respond to these events, the Melding would close in and invade more and more of the world, until the main capital would be under siege in this all-out, climactic battle. If this battle were lost, the entire server "died", and you were booted to another. Personal progression was very limited then and, ultimately, not all that important, but players were incredibly committed to the game because they truly felt like they were saving humanity from extinction, and that their actions truly mattered.

Let's see how this can apply to Warframe: right now, the game has one open world, with a city of civilians under siege from a vast, evil enemy. This is on just one planet out of many, and unlike Firefall, Warframe has a huge number of factions: the main three are all bent on total system domination (i.e. the Grineer, the Corpus and the Infested), two are specifically out to kill the Tenno (i.e. the Sentient, and Stalker and his acolytes), and one or two more factions may be likely to come into the picture as well (i.e. the Orokin and the Man Behind the Wall). On top of this, there are a plethora of smaller factions with their own goals, methods and relationships to each other (i.e. the Syndicates, plus Simaris, Teshin and now the Ostron and the Quills), and on top of that too the Tenno themselves form clans that have at times vied for power and resources. This is an incredibly rich, complex ecosystem, and the perfect setting for a dynamic in-game world, one where all of these conflicts would generate ample opportunities for the Tenno to intervene and restore balance. With actual stakes, namely the safety of civilians, relays, our own clan, the increased danger posed by factions when they gain power, and so on, literally every mission could have a real impact on the in-game world. It would be a lot easier to explain missions, too, as completing one objective may cause others to appear in response, and succeeding, failing or ignoring a mission could all have different consequences.

To take this back to just Plains of Eidolon, though, I think having this kind of model could help string bounties together in a way that would make a lot more sense: the Plains are territory that belongs to the Ostron, but that is being invaded by the Grineer. Having these Grineer actually expand or recede as they gain or lose territory, and having that happen as a direct consequence of the players' actions, could make both the environment and the missions much more dynamic, and would allow for interesting events to happen in the future (imagine if Cetus ends up being sieged). Right now, the Plains are the perfect testing ground for new features like these, and polishing them there could allow them to be carried out to the rest of the game, and truly revolutionize it in the process.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Teridax68

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

The OP isn't wrong. Half Baked then abandoned has been the development process for years now. It's not an insult; it's factual observation.

Not being snide. Or rude. It is what it is. And frankly, abandoning Raids, Archwing and Lunaro is probably a GOOD thing.

In terms of the current state of Archwing/Lunaro, you're not wrong.

However the core principle of this entire thread is that the current state needs to change. DE needs to sit down and figure out what makes each mode un-fun for a a lot of players and change those thing(s).

Lunaro by itself? Not my idea of fun. The catch-and-throw mechanics implemented for the ball? I can think of a few interesting uses for those in the context of objective-based objects like power cells or datamasses off the top of my head.

It doesn't take much. It just takes an actual interest in stitching all the disjointed parts together instead of dreaming up what the next hype-train could be.

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, Dhuem said:

At one point i did consider suggesting something for a proper endgame

which would fit well for warframe, maybe. It would be something like Guilds

would be able to build a Orokin Portal for there Dojo's so they would be able 

to travel to another solar system and fight for Territory against an "Enemy faction"

And the story plot would go like Lotus learned that Vor is trying to rebuild his army

in another solar system to take revenge on those involved in (Spoiler)killing the queen so 

end up taking the fight to him. and from there lotus will have the tenno band togather

and take the fight to him. where you would fight over territory and claim it for resources

for equipment and all that jazz.... And thats all i got lol. 

Sounds like something that could do a lot to expand on Syndicates.

I really hope they do something similar to this with the upcoming kingpin system, though I doubt they've thought that far ahead at this point.

The first step toward reducing grind burnout short of increasing drops is making missions into something a bit more complex and detailed than "steal this data" without any visible consequences on the in-universe status quo. DE also needs to find a way to automate this system; they can't churn out a mini-event every time someone clicks on a node.

[DiabolusUrsus]

59 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I very much like the idea of more open worldspaces and a connecting story to missions. I think one of the biggest endgame problems right now in Warframe is that, for all the missions the game throws at you, none of them have any cause or consequence, and the entire in-game world is static. As a result, players only perform missions if they provide some extrinsic reward that interests them, and once players have everything they could possibly want, they have no reason to play until the next update. In turn, this fear of losing player retention has pushed DE to massively pad out its game with grinding, which not only dilutes the entire experience, but also leads to a lot of burnout. Plains of Eidolon is a particularly relevant example of this, as the insane levels of grind (which the hotfixes only partially addressed) are already causing many players to peace out until things improve.

Ultimately, what Warframe needs to look into is perpetual player retention, i.e. a means of keeping players interested in the game independent of new content or personal progression. Grinding only goes so far, and past a certain point does more harm than good. Moreover, making extrinsic rewards and personal progression the only major incentive to continue playing means players are only incentivized to play for a limited time: this can be very long for a game this big, but ultimately players tick all the boxes on their progression list and leave. Veterans in particular end up simply waiting for the next content update to come out, whereupon they rush through everything in a few days, then leave and repeat the process, if they don't eventually drop out entirely. Effectively, Warframe needs to give its players the ability to make an impact on the game outside of their own mastery rank, and do so in a manner that a) feels meaningful, and b) can be repeated an infinite amount of times.

Some players here might remember a game by the name of Firefall: the game's dead now, mostly due to very shady executive decisions, but there was a time when the game was, in my opinion, one of the most promising out there. During its peak, the game had a map a bit larger than the Plains, and had a single faction (the Melding) that controlled everything around it. Not only that, but the Melding would also invade the area, whether by sending out destructive forces of nature, such as tornadoes and wild mutated beasts, or by sending out troops of soldiers that would invade towns and outposts. If players did not respond to these events, the Melding would close in and invade more and more of the world, until the main capital would be under siege in this all-out, battle. If this battle were lost, the entire server "died", and you were booted to another. Personal progression was very limited then and, ultimately, not all that important, but players were incredibly committed to the game because they truly felt like they were saving humanity from extinction, and that their actions truly mattered.

Let's see how this can apply to Warframe: right now, the game has one open world, with a city of civilians under siege from a vast, evil enemy. This is on just one planet out of many, and unlike Firefall, Warframe has a huge number of factions: the main three are all bent on total system domination (i.e. the Grineer, the Corpus and the Infested), two are specifically out to kill the Tenno (i.e. the Sentient, and Stalker and his acolytes), and one or two more factions may be likely to come into the picture as well (i.e. the Orokin and the Man Behind the Wall). On top of this, there are a plethora of smaller factions with their own goals, methods and relationships to each other (i.e. the Syndicates, plus Simaris, Teshin and now the Ostron and the Quills), and on top of that too the Tenno themselves form clans that have at times vied for power and resources. This is an incredibly rich, complex ecosystem, and the perfect setting for a dynamic in-game world, one where all of these conflicts would generate ample opportunities for the Tenno to intervene and restore balance. With actual stakes, namely the safety of civilians, relays, our own clan, the increased danger posed by factions when they gain power, and so on, literally every mission could have a real impact on the in-game world. It would be a lot easier to explain missions, too, as completing one objective may cause others to appear in response, and succeeding, failing or ignoring a mission could all have different consequences.

To take this back to just Plains of Eidolon, though, I think having this kind of model could help string bounties together in a way that would make a lot more sense: the Plains are territory that belongs to the Ostron, but that is being invaded by the Grineer. Having these Grineer actually expand or recede as they gain or lose territory, and having that happen as a direct consequence of the players' actions, could make both the environment and the missions much more dynamic, and would allow for interesting events to happen in the future (imagine if Cetus ends up being sieged). Right now, the Plains are the perfect testing ground for new features like these, and polishing them there could allow them to be carried out to the rest of the game, and truly revolutionize it in the process.

100% spot-on.

The only thing I'd caution about is pushing things too far in the opposite direction regarding tangible consequences.

Yes, success/failure should have an effect on the in-universe status quo. However, players also need an effective way to withdraw from the action or you end up with something like ARK where players feel like they are held hostage by the mechanics.

For example, if player dojos might come under threat there needs to be a mechanic for "hiding" the dojo to protect it at the expense of not reaping benefits from participation. This allows players who have limited time or wish to take a break (or even those who aren't interested in participating) to bow out without penalty. Think of it like putting a pet in stasis.

This process should also be automated by inactivity.

[Teridax68]

4 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

100% spot-on.

The only thing I'd caution about is pushing things too far in the opposite direction regarding tangible consequences.

Yes, success/failure should have an effect on the in-universe status quo. However, players also need an effective way to withdraw from the action or you end up with something like ARK where players feel like they are held hostage by the mechanics.

For example, if player dojos might come under threat there needs to be a mechanic for "hiding" the dojo to protect it at the expense of not reaping benefits from participation. This allows players who have limited time or wish to take a break (or even those who aren't interested in participating) to bow out without penalty. Think of it like putting a pet in stasis.

This process should also be automated by inactivity.

I completely agree with this criticism, and this was in fact an issue with Firefall as well during that time, where the devs initially grossly misjudged the total amount of player participation and had to scale back very quickly on the frequency of the events. Missions and events in general should generally be based on total player participation, and while not all events need to be winnable (it might be interesting to actually see some relays get destroyed, so that we can rebuild them), they certainly shouldn't put so much pressure on the player as an individual that they feel trapped. With clans, in particular, threats should be proportionate to clan size and the activity of their players, so while it might be a good incentive to trim the fat and boot out players who have been inactive for months or years, it should never come down to any situation where it felt like a single player was at fault for not dedicating themselves as much as they should've, or didn't participate for a brief period of time. There are over 26 million registered losers Tenno and counting, so while players should feel like they get to contribute, staying in the game should be a matter of wanting to keep playing and enjoying the game, not being guilt-tripped into holding on, as that tends to burn out players super-fast, and in such a way that they're much less likely to ever come back.

[Lost_Cartographer]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

And frankly, abandoning Raids, Archwing and Lunaro is probably a GOOD thing.

It's hard to figure out.  A lot of the hate for some systems is born from a poor first impression.  Other times it's just overly restrictive/challenging, and others still we're left scratching our heads.  Everyone was super excited for Archwing, but the delivery was a rather stale experience.  People can't see past that experience to the potential it should have since realized.  Raids on the other hand are highly restrictive by nature, both because of their sheer levels causing inflated difficulty and the 8 player recommendation.  Lunaro... was something no one asked for.  DE was trying to ride the popular Rocket League train, except no one got into Warframe to play knock-off Rocket League.

So DE has hard calls to make - will further development of this feature get more people into it, or is it something that was niche by design?

Edited October 17, 2017 by Littleman88

[texrei]

4 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

It doesn't matter how wrong the OP is or isn't. DE is just much more geared to listen to positive constructive feedback.

Warframe is a product they are selling. I believe they can handle a fair critique, why else will they read this subforum? To hear how well and perfect it's done? What a waste of time. They need players to keep this project live, and they have to listen if they want us stay longer. Here's nothing offensive.

I passionately agree with OP. Warframe had so many directions of development witch are all over for now. Umbra soon