I'm done with fishing and PoE

[Revenant0713]

1 hour ago, Aelendril said:

 

You both have good points, but this essentially hold in 3 words : futuristic super technology.

You're judging AW with our current knowledge and technology, but it cannot apply. We don't know how they work, what they're really made of outside craft components, what they can or cannot do.

It's like in mass effect for Sovereign, when Joker says ; "that thing just pulled a turn that would shear any of our ships in half" It's the same thing here, AW are far, far, far above what we know and can do.

 

Now, on a feedback note, I wouldn't mind using crafting limited beacons if we weren't downed as fast a paper plane in the rain. And I would also love to be able to go higher than 50m of the ground.

As to using arch-guns, it'd be fun, but maybe they would need to be slightly less effective in atmosphere (like, less ammo, more falloff lower dmg...) to reduce OPness 

Mass Effect does follow some semblance of physical laws though, even in that instance of Sovereign. Sovereign's performance can be explained. We can assume either its shields are powerful EM fields that prevent its mass from compressing or ripping apart due to physical strain. It might also have some form of advanced alloy with high ultimate tensile strength. It also generates mass effect fields, which can reduce the mass content within Sovereign itself, allowing it to perform crazy maneuvers for its size.

Point is, all content in any fantasy universe follows laws agreed upon by the creators.

The argument on archwing performance was mostly driven by the idea of whether Sky Archwing's control system inconsistency with the rest of archwing content is lore-friendly or not. The thing is... if something is placed in a game, there has to be an explanation on why it exists as it is chosen by devs; why Sky Archwing does exist in its current state has in fact, a legitimate explanation... regardless of whether or not that explanation makes it a good or bad game design choice.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Revenant0713

[TankHunter678]

6 minutes ago, Revenant0713 said:

The argument on archwing performance was mostly driven by the idea of whether Sky Archwing's control system inconsistency with the rest of archwing content is lore-friendly or not. The thing is... if something is placed in a game, there has to be an explanation on why it exists as it is chosen by devs; why Sky Archwing does exist in its current state has in fact, a legitimate explanation... regardless of whether or not that explanation makes it a good or bad game design choice.

In truth the space/sharkwing movement functions can be used for skywing and the lore can support it easily with a bit of handwaving.

 

For example, in the Legend of Heroes Trails series by Falcom Airships use Orbal Engine Flight Fields in order to fly. Projected around the ship is a invisible energy field that counteracts gravity, and also adjusts the aerodynamic properties of the airflow passing around the ship. Allowing even flying brick design airships to fly at reasonably high speeds, possess the ability to hover, strafe side to side, and do VTOL maneuvers.

The Archwing can be similar, the technology is advanced enough that you can say that it projects an energy field to help enable flight and that is also what allows us to use Archwing underwater, the energy field itself take the brunt of the pressure trying to crush the archwing that deep underwater. It can also be the reason why the Archwing in space never suffers from micrometeorite impact damage.

[RacerDelux]

I would like to make sure everybody is clear on one thing. The content they released (getting the highest end AMP etc) was designed to take a month+ to complete, not a week.

[Revenant0713]

1 minute ago, RacerDelux said:

I would like to make sure everybody is clear on one thing. The content they released (getting the highest end AMP etc) was designed to take a month+ to complete, not a week.

Yes but... there are ways to do that without locking it behind a system they promised was gonna be optional.

[RacerDelux]

Just now, Revenant0713 said:

Yes but... there are ways to do that without locking it behind a system they promised was gonna be optional.

To be 100% fair, you COULD buy the fish. But yes, they should make more ways to get the supplies. Not easier, just different.

[Revenant0713]

7 minutes ago, RacerDelux said:

To be 100% fair, you COULD buy the fish. But yes, they should make more ways to get the supplies. Not easier, just different.

Thing is... I enjoy fishing. I really do. The problem is I have to consider how others who don't enjoy fishing feel, and why they feel that way. And the main gripe really is that the rewards for fishing are core to the tenno progression system.

An optional element that is required in order to attain a core gameplay element makes the optional element core. And in this case... Tenno powers are not supposed to depend on fishing. It's not supposed to be core.

[Volinus7]

1 hour ago, RacerDelux said:

I would like to make sure everybody is clear on one thing. The content they released (getting the highest end AMP etc) was designed to take a month+ to complete, not a week.

More like the content is actually only a few hours but the repetitive grinding takes months lol.

Warframe really went deep into incremental model, now it's not different from those zero balance incremental games on mobile. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Volinus7

[Azuset]

Dont let this thread die. 

[MirageKnight]

23 hours ago, Revenant0713 said:

Yes but... there are ways to do that without locking it behind a system they promised was gonna be optional.

This. So much this.

I mean it's cool that we can actually do something different in Warframe aside from running around killing mooks. Like the gardens we can build in our dojos, it makes for a nice diversion and adds some depth to the ingame universe...but don't tie something like fishing to player progression. Mining, sure...I'm fine with that. Exotic and regular metals are needed to forge gear, 'Frames, and weapons. But fish? Absolutely NOT. I don't mind fishing in and of itself, I think it's interesting. But seriously, it needs to be completely disconnected from player progression (Operator gear) and Archwings.

Warframe at its core is about controlling various bio-mechanical humanoids and using them to fight the near countless pawns of vast, implacable enemies with a wide array of ranged and close combat weapons and powerful abilities. To make a low tech activity a requirement for using some of that tech (Archwing, Operator Amp gear) makes no sense and frankly I find it an insult to our intelligence and patience.

[Traxadel]

Man, your opinion rocks. Totally agreeing with you.

[Sloan441]

10 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

 To make a low tech activity a requirement for using some of that tech (Archwing, Operator Amp gear) makes no sense and frankly I find it an insult to our intelligence and patience.

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, since there are tropes in sci-fi that cover just this. 

For the record, I have very mixed feelings about fishing as it's implemented at present. Mostly because of outrageous crafting costs, but this is something easily rectified--assuming DE wants to. 

Anyway, the Orokin were masters of biological sciences and what looks to have been their pinnacle technologies were largely organic in nature, though mechanical in effect. The Orokin Towers themselves are a very obvious case in point. It would make sense for them to create biological entities that produce the materials or effects they need, but can continually reproduce themselves to keep those same resources in continuous production with minimal maintenance. It's sustainability with a vengeance. 

Those critters would still exist and still would be producing the materials the Orokin utilized well after the fall of the empire. The means of harvesting them would be history, but they would still be around. The Ostron are a technically primitive society but still retain some memory of what the Empire was and what made it tick. They've developed means of harvesting what those old biological constructs could produce. It's primitive in and of itself, but it's a means to an end--just not an ideal one. So you fish to keep that Hawkwing in the air. 

S.M. Stirling has a very similar take on all this in his "In the Courts of the Crimson Kings." His Martian society was entirely based around biological constructs and genetic manipulation--and some of these things were truly alarming. It's fascinating stuff and this book was easily one of his best works. I'd highly recommend it if you enjoy reading this sort of thing. 

[low1991]

On 10/18/2017 at 10:36 PM, Anthraxicus said:

1 -  Isn't it convenient that Grineer drop all sorts of things depending on the planet they are? They drop Orokin cells but aren't Orokin. They drop Ferrite, Alloy, Polymer bundles, Neurodes and so on. But somehow they don't drop gems, because they don't mine.....despite the fact that they are there on the plains MINING resources with gigantic MINING machines. But no. These resources that they are actually mining don't drop, duz reasons.

2 - Tony Stark would like to have a word with you.

Yes to Tusk Grineer dropping gems. Or gem resource caches. And maybe fish resource cache too. I mean don't grineer eats?

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, Sloan441 said:

-snipped solely for the sake of saving space-

Well that was a very enlightening read. Thanks. I mean that.

You make a fair point in your post, that the Orokin were skilled at bio engineering/ genetic manipulation and that some Orokin tech and / or components for that tech had biological origins (see "meat walls" for the Towers). That being said, wouldn't most of those products be grown on a very large scale in the interests of efficiency? Things like Neurodes, Nano Spores, and Plastids are indeed good examples of bioengineering being used to help augment technology.

I don't have a problem with say hardened fish scales, boney carapaces, oil and such being used as ingredients in the production of say locally-made low tech armor, weapons, and tools. I do have a problem with Fish Oil suddenly being a requirement to use Archwings in a planetary atmosphere when we've been using them in space and underwater with no problems for some time.

Also, I have an issue with the new Grineer resource - Grokdrul. If this is supposedly a standard chemical used in Grineer manufacturing...why can't this stuff also be found on Grineer Shipyard tilesets as well? Or any Grineer tileset for that matter? I'd actually like to see it made more available on other maps and possibly worked into recipes for at least some existing and future Grineer weapons.

[Censium]

On 10/17/2017 at 8:05 AM, RacerDelux said:

@SoloTango POE is actually really good. There is just a small and very vocal subset of the player base that does not like it. When he said you "Have to fish" He means you will have to spend an hour or so getting fish.

Exactly, PoE is a fantastic update, don't let the extremely vocal minority ruin the update for you, 

[MirageKnight]

@Censium: You're perfectly welcome to post here, but don't expect all of us to agree with what you have to say or consider what you have to say as being helpful. Your post is little more than opinionated white knighting as it attacks any sort of valid criticism against DE (and its hardcore fans) and adds nothing to the actual topic of this discussion.

At least those of us that constitute your so-called "extremely vocal minority" (which it isn't) are trying to make the game a better experience for ALL gamers that play Warframe by offering honest feedback on good and bad things we find in the game, backing up our findings with evidence and offering possible solutions to perceived issues. All your post amounts to is patting another player on the back and saying "Hey, it's ok man, I agree with you. Everyone else here is wrong and mean and I'll show them a thing or two for ruining your fun"

You like the update? Don't see any problems with it? Fine, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Just don't expect everyone posting in the feedback section to be saying nothing but good things about PoE because that will never happen. In the end, only talking about positive things and ignoring and glossing over negative things doesn't help the game get any better and thus make the game more enjoyable for everyone playing it. And smart players that actually care about the game know this.

Yes, PoE gave us a great looking map with some wonderful ambiance, some interesting new systems and activities, a marketplace location that honestly "feels" like a marketplace, interesting new enemies, expansion on ingame lore, and so on. We're not ignoring that. We like that. Those are all positive things and DE needs to know what they did right so they can keep on doing it. We've been telling them what we like and what works. But they also need to know what they did wrong and what doesn't work so that they can fix things and so that they don't keep repeating mistakes (they still do to some extent but that's another topic altogether).

If it weren't for the feedback from the "extremely vocal minority" in the past, I can guarantee you that your "fantastic update" would not have turned out to be nearly as "fantastic" as it actually wound up being. You're welcome.

Edited October 20, 2017 by MirageKnight

[BlackCoMerc]

On 10/18/2017 at 3:55 PM, MJ12 said:

Stop making excuses for bad gameplay decisions like limiting Archwing segments behind a minigame and an endless grindwall. And moreover, your excuse, that it's "realistic," is actually completely wrong.

Water is literally a thousand times denser than air. Assuming that the oceans are liquid water, Archwings can provide, through their drives, meaningful thrust through a medium literally a thousand times denser than air. The idea that 'air resistance' is relevant at that point is laughable. Atmospheric drag is also not actually that problematic, especially since Archwings have a TWR significantly greater than 1:1, and can maintain that thrust indefinitely. You can make a literal brick fly if you have enough power, and Archwings have more than enough power, given that their accelerations are sufficient for them to turn on a dime in space and go from 0 to 100+ meters/second in a literal second. That, by the way, requires a 10:1 Thrust-Weight Ratio when fully loaded. In comparison, a modern high-performance fighter jet, like the F-22, manages a mere 1.5:1 Thrust-Weight Ratio when empty, and even less when loaded. Let me put that in perspective. This means that a Tenno on an Archwing should be able to break orbit from the surface of Earth just by pointing towards the sky and flying up. They should be (and literally are) capable of pulling maneuvers impossible for aircraft, because they have thrust weight ratios impossible for aircraft.

Archwings should be 100% capable of atmospheric performance, right out of the box. Honestly, if this was a matter of realism rather than a blatantly bad gameplay decision, DE should just eliminate both Archwing launcher charges and the upgrade segment and refund everyone all the platinum, credits, and resources spent on them. Nothing explains why Archwings need to be 'modified' with fish oil to use their engines, which do not require any such fuel in space (despite the fact that there is nothing in space and thus they would require reaction mass to do anything, assuming they use reaction drives instead of reactionless ones), on Earth. Maneuvering at high speeds in space is literally far harder than maneuvering at high speeds in atmosphere.

Edit: In fact, because it's a blatantly bad gameplay decision, they should just refund everyone their Archwing Upgrade Segment and Launcher Charges resources/credits/platinum and pretend like they never had this unfun and unrealistic grindwall over the use of... Archwing, which people don't use nearly enough in the first place.

 

This is gold. Well said, and I absolutely agree. 

PoE has done more, at this point, to turn me off to both the game and the developer than it has to make me want to continue playing and supporting. 

Its shallow, repetitive, completely misses the point of open world game play...its just a huge lobby with a good view, the only purpose of which is waiting for the next mission to spawn in its tiny littler confined area.

Seriously...at this point, just remove Plains the area, and put the four new mission variants on existing outdoor maps. The results would be exactly the same as they are now, game play wise. No point or purpose to free roam, except flying through it would have been fun...had they just let us do it.

[vinz_clortho]

My Experience with the fishing system:

-waiting
-waiting
-waiting
-waiting
-waiting
-2kg fish
-waiting
-waiting
-waiting
-waiting
-waiting
-Waiting for 10 Minutes without spawn (not sure if unlucky or buggy)

The experience over the course of my fishing activity felt terrible at best and atrocious at worst. A group of two clanmembers learned a few pretty new words when this happened to me:

https://imgur.com/a/Af797

While the joke is not lost on me, it did not help me feel better about this. Especially not when people tell me that one gets this when one misses. as I'm pretty sure I did not miss it.

When I was looking for the Garra fishpart, I knew that they spawn in the night. so I was entering the plains was like nice nighttime, catched 3 of them and it became dawn. I was unhappy as for the next 5 minutes I did not see a single one of them spawn.
When I complained in my clan about this (and believe me I did an awful lot of complaining about fishing in the last 5 days), a clanmember entered my game stood at the point where I was and got 7 of them in 5 minutes.
This feels not encouraging at all to me.

My solution:

-for now will be to only do my daily log in, in hopes of an update or hotfix that promises to improve my experience to the game to post Navigation 3.0 experience (which was the change that managed to get me hooked onto the game).

 

Also a small joke for it is related to my feelings:

 

There walks a guy through the woods, suddenly he comes to a lake and he sees a person fishing there.he gets close to him and stands there watching the guy fishing. After 4 hours watching that guy fishing he asks him. "Is there anything more boring than fishing?" and the fisher replies "Watching someone fishing."

[low1991]

I think fish should just spawn like normal animals/pest/enemies...

In the meanwhile, can we have some fish radar mod? Or some in-depth upgrades to each fishing spear tiers?

[Revenant0713]

On 10/20/2017 at 9:20 PM, Sloan441 said:

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, since there are tropes in sci-fi that cover just this. 

For the record, I have very mixed feelings about fishing as it's implemented at present. Mostly because of outrageous crafting costs, but this is something easily rectified--assuming DE wants to. 

Anyway, the Orokin were masters of biological sciences and what looks to have been their pinnacle technologies were largely organic in nature, though mechanical in effect. The Orokin Towers themselves are a very obvious case in point. It would make sense for them to create biological entities that produce the materials or effects they need, but can continually reproduce themselves to keep those same resources in continuous production with minimal maintenance. It's sustainability with a vengeance. 

Those critters would still exist and still would be producing the materials the Orokin utilized well after the fall of the empire. The means of harvesting them would be history, but they would still be around. The Ostron are a technically primitive society but still retain some memory of what the Empire was and what made it tick. They've developed means of harvesting what those old biological constructs could produce. It's primitive in and of itself, but it's a means to an end--just not an ideal one. So you fish to keep that Hawkwing in the air. 

S.M. Stirling has a very similar take on all this in his "In the Courts of the Crimson Kings." His Martian society was entirely based around biological constructs and genetic manipulation--and some of these things were truly alarming. It's fascinating stuff and this book was easily one of his best works. I'd highly recommend it if you enjoy reading this sort of thing. 

Well... yes, as a writer and a long-time sci-fi fanatic, I agree that it could make sense that the Ostron society retains some of the Orokin practices and knowledge...

In fact, using the same logic, I was able to defend the reason Sky Archwing unctions as it does.

Unfortunately, realistic explanations behind gameplay designs do not make gameplay designs better than they are. What we need is some form of compromise; a fluid and fair gameplay design, with a solid explanation on why the design exists the way it does in the lore.

[Revenant0713]

2 hours ago, low1991 said:

I think fish should just spawn like normal animals/pest/enemies...

In the meanwhile, can we have some fish radar mod? Or some in-depth upgrades to each fishing spear tiers?

Fish can't spawn like normal animals. Currently, fish spawn is instanced to each player. You can't see your squadmate's fish, and they can't see yours. If they spawned like normal animals, you'd have pro fishers stealing other players' catch of the day. Then we'd have more complaints on our hands.

Let's face it... there is no shortage of people who enjoy having fun at other people's expense on the Internet. And if I had the occasional desire and opportunity to steal my squadmates' fish just to see them rage in chat... I would. On a good day.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Revenant0713

[low1991]

5 minutes ago, Revenant0713 said:

Fish can't spawn like normal animals. Currently, fish spawn is instanced to each player. You can't see your squadmate's fish, and they can't see yours. If they spawned like normal animals, you'd have pro fishers stealing other players' catch of the day. Then we'd have more complaints on our hands.

Let's face it... there is no shortage of people who enjoy having fun at other people's expense on the Internet. And if I had the occasional desire and opportunity to steal my squadmates' fish just to see them rage in chat... I would. On a good day.

Ok, didn't know fish is instances base as i fish solo. But if fish are shared, should the team all have that fish as well (all share). Like how the same resources can be shared in same amount among teammates without being decreased.

Currently, troll can still happens even with fishing being instances, by them throwing the spears or playing in the water near you.

I see no con's in fish being shared and session-based. 

Edited October 21, 2017 by low1991

[Revenant0713]

1 minute ago, low1991 said:

Ok, didn't know fish is instances base as i fish solo. But if fish are shared, should the team all have that fish as well (all share). Like how the same resources can be shared in same amount among teammates without being decreased.

Currently, troll still happens even with fishing being instances, by them throwing the spears or playing in the water near you.

I see no con's in fish being shared and session-based. 

A couple of options are:

1.) keep fish player instanced, but stop fish AI from reacting to squad actions other than your own.

2.) Make fish session-based, but allow fish caught to be shared amongst squad mates.

Either seems good.

[Sloan441]

7 minutes ago, Revenant0713 said:

Unfortunately, realistic explanations behind gameplay designs do not make gameplay designs better than they are. What we need is some form of compromise; a fluid and fair gameplay design, with a solid explanation on why the design exists the way it does in the lore.

I was just addressing mindset and lore issues. Some have problems with fishing in and of itself in what is otherwise a high-tech setting, degenerate as it is. I was simply pointing out how it could work--and we have seen a vaguely similar exposition in the Moa entry in the Codex. 

Gameplay issues are on DE and their systems in PoE are...mmm...words...more...dammit, drawing a blank. The systems they have are not worth the time you presently have to put in to get anything done. This is adjustable. They've already been doing it. Normally DE uses sweeping changes, but in this case I believe they're being very conservative in turning the knobs. It's always easier to back off from difficulty than add it after the fact if you've gone too far the other way. 

Presently, I'm willing to just dabble and large ignore the systems in PoE. Focus is more of a priority at present and that I can farm outside of the Plains--and I still have a PA to farm stuff for and get ready for the next. How I spend time in PoE will depend on how DE adjusts it going forward. 

[Scorpyin]

I agree with most of this topic but primarily with the idea that fishing/mining shouldn't be mandatory. Fishing and mining should give out cosmetic skins/armor/decoration or fishing/mining related rewards and keep that side quest type stuff separated from the core game play. Or I can safely say at least I play Warframe for the action and shooting... Just my opinion. Fishing (and mining) just aren't fun. I ignore anything to do with the new update because I do not enjoy any aspect of fishing or mining. This is one of my favorite games ever, but whatever is added to this new area, I will miss out on it all because I'd rather enjoy my time spent playing Warframe.

Overall, you did a great job with the update. Everything looks great and I love the idea of making snipers viable in Warframe, Giant maps are a great way to add a new spin to the action. But for someone like me, fishing and mining is just boring in concept. I'm not sure there is a way to make it exciting. It's not to say you didn't do an amazing job with the fishing and mining mechanics. I did try it both mining and fishing but after seeing how much I needed to do to raise my standing in Cedus I left and never even considered going back.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Scorpyin

[Jaffa_Cake_King]

I haven't played PoE yet but the idea of having to fish is really putting me off. As someone who's recently come back to this game i'm having lots of fun with the movement and shooting mechanics but standing there with a spear trying to catch fish sounds super boring and has nothing to do with why i like and play this game.