Some Part of Community dislikes opertors ...

[Chewarette]

The Operator as per The Second Dream was perfectly fine. You understood who was in control of this metal puppets, and you understood that this being was extremely powerful and extremely weak at the same time. Thus, using him/her only when fully focused to unleash a huge burst of energy made sense.

Then, TWW arrived, and you became a random kid able to teleport from one point to another, still being extremely weak but invulnerable (???).

To be completely honest, I have nothing against the Operator himself, he/she can give a few emotion and humanize this game (we were playing as robots killing robots, clones and jelly stuff previously). I'm heavily against what they're trying to force us to do with them.

Simply check all the promotion videos of Warframe. Ninjas jumping everywhere, destroying everything, high speed stuff, tons of actions ! Then you download this game to give it a try, you enjoy it up to TSD because it is truly a fast-paced horde-shooting game, then from TWW it goes slower and slower.

Up to TWW you destroy everything.

From TWW you start using your operator to dash through clouds (m'okay).

From PoE you start fighting with your operator at an abysmally slow pace and ... you're fishing, yeah boiii exactly what I created my account for

[Crimson_Ruby_313]

deleted

Edited October 27, 2017 by Crimson_Ruby_313

[Rinteru]

25 minutes ago, Crimson_Ruby_313 said:

Give me back my energy overflow. :(

This focus 2 is awful. I used to set naramon primary to use cc for my melee. Now what? Just for some seconds it gives cc! When I'm among a huge number of enemies, HOW ON EARTH am I supposed to swich to operator? 

Also operator's energy is too low. We can't mod our operator and put a flow on em! Fighting with that kiddo is impossible.

Its baseless complaint Imo, because what, you cannnot spam your abilities?  You still can have tons of energy you just have to work for it. I have energizing dash and basic zenurik passive at level 4 and im never running out of energy even of im playing spam saryn or spam nova.

You can switch to operatorany any time, when you are switching you have invincibilty moment and just after that you can dash to ragdoll enemies or just enter void mode for extended invincibilty as long you have energy.

When it comes operators energy you can increase it with amps and zenurik. Also new arcanes can icrease your operator regen.

I wont deny operators are still weak. It seems thou you havent played enough of PoE to access some stuff that eould make this complaints gone. So go play some more.

And most importantly i said at the beginnig please refrain talking about focus, because its in dire state.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Rinteru

[Fallen_Echo]

21 minutes ago, Crimson_Ruby_313 said:

Give me back my energy overflow. :(

This focus 2 is awful. I used to set naramon primary to use cc for my melee. Now what? Just for some seconds it gives cc! When I'm among a huge number of enemies, HOW ON EARTH am I supposed to swich to operator? 

Also operator's energy is too low. We can't mod our operator and put a flow on em! Fighting with that kiddo is impossible.

I always wondered how can people say the switching system is well done. I myself due to a condition needed to set up a macro to use dash skills (got official clearance) but i cant wrap my head around how others are fine with it.

[Rinteru]

 

3 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I always wondered how can people say the switching system is well done. I myself due to a condition needed to set up a macro to use dash skills (got official clearance) but i cant wrap my head around how others are fine with it.

For me switching is fine as it is right now, could get some minor tweaks. However when you exit of of your frame you get momentum, its quite fluid. I dont know what is wrong with it? 

[ADirtyMonk]

Simply put. Operators are incredibly weak damage wise relative to how fragile they are. Because even warframes and weapons with basic mods can perform the jobs of a base operator significantly better in all fields (movement, damage) players will not want to use them as this is a game that caters to making the player feel like a god whereas the operator makes the player feel incredibly weak. 

So in an attempt to get players to use the operator DE implements mechanics that require the operator in order for the player to progress. While this makes the operator useful for these specific situations it makes the player feel forced into using the operator to access content, something which feels very bad.

If DE wants operators to become integrated into the game as something players use, they must address the fundamental issue of: The operator must provide a function X that is useful, and it must do function X better than a warframe can.

And this is the case. Zenurik is so popular because you cannot get as powerful or reliable energy regen anywhere else. Lots of players use void mode to revive other players because very few warframes guarantee a 100% safe revive. Naramon is popular for focus farming because you cannot get a 45% affinity boost anywhere else. I use the operator for most of my transport across the plains because Zenurik and Naramon passives let me move far faster and further than my warframe can. On the flip side operator combat and indeed most of the focus nodes involved with increasing damage feels like S#&$ because for examle, a 10s duration orb that zaps everything in 4m for 200 electrical damage when I do a void dash isnt worth jack when I can vaporize enemies with my maxed out gun. Why in the world would willingly I use an amp that is at best locked at 9000 damage every .75s on ONE target when the damage output of my other equipment is so much better.

But DE refuses to buff the operator to this point.

From my own perspective: If I have to choose between being a maxed out chroma that can walk through lv 90 eximus sorties without a sweat or a teenager that takes 40 shots to kill a lv 50 heavy gunner and can get picked off by a lv 50 lancer that was hiding behind a crate, im going to go with the chroma every single time unless I absolutely had to. Now, if everything the operator did had a base 30,000 finisher damage but I could only take out the operator for 10s at a time every 20s, I'd use the operator a lot more often.

Edited October 27, 2017 by ADirtyMonk

[Rinteru]

1 minute ago, ADirtyMonk said:

Simply put. Operators are incredibly weak damage wise relative to how fragile they are. Because even warframes and weapons with basic mods can perform the jobs of a base operator significantly better in all fields (movement, damage) players will not want to use them as this is a game that caters to making the player feel like a god whereas the operator makes the player feel incredibly weak. 

So in an attempt to get players to use the operator DE implements mechanics that require the operator in order for the player to progress. While this makes the operator useful for these specific situations it makes the player feel forced into using the operator, something which feels very bad, to access content which leaves a sour taste in the players mouth.

If DE wants operators to become integrated into the game as something players use, they must address the fundamental issue of: The operator must provide a function X that is useful, and it must do function X better than a warframe can.

And this is the case. Zenurik is so popular because you cannot get as powerful or reliable energy regen anywhere else. Lots of players use void mode to revive other players because very few warframes guarantee a 100% safe revive. Naramon is popular for focus farming because you cannot get a 45% affinity boost anywhere else. I use the operator for most of my transport across the plains because Zenurik and Naramon passives let me move far faster and further than my warframe can. 

But DE refuses to buff the operator to this point.

From my own perspective: If I have to choose between being a maxed out chroma that can walk through lv 90 eximus sorties without a sweat or a teenager that takes 40 shots to kill a lv 50 heavy gunner and can get picked off by a lv 50 lancer that was hiding behind a crate, im going to go with the chroma every single time unless I absolutely had to. Now, if everything the operator did had a base 30,000 finisher damage but I could only take out the operator for 10s at a time every 20s, I'd use the operator a lot more often.

Well thsi creates some conflictt operators cannot be better than warframe because there is playerbase if you havent read that dislikes operators and a lot of players would say "is this warframe or operator game, operators are more powerful than frames, why play frames".  I agree thou on movement part they should get better movemnt set, dash feels not that good.

[ADirtyMonk]

5 minutes ago, Rinteru said:

Well thsi creates some conflictt operators cannot be better than warframe because there is playerbase if you havent read that dislikes operators and a lot of players would say "is this warframe or operator game, operators are more powerful than frames, why play frames".  I agree thou on movement part they should get better movemnt set, dash feels not that good.

There is a big difference between players who dont like the concept of operators and players who dont like the operators because they are so weak. I strongly believe even the former group can be convinced to come around if the operator buffs were significant enough. A couple of reasonable face/hair presets couldnt hurt either.

Also Operators, by lore, should be stronger or as strong as warframes because they are an uncontrollable reservoir of void energy used to power warframes which are just constructs that can channel that energy in very specific ways (abilities). If you read Ember Prime's and Rhino Prime's description Operators were so volatile the Orokin had to sleep them to keep them from blowing up everything around them which is not what we currently see in game.

Edited October 27, 2017 by ADirtyMonk

[Crimson_Ruby_313]

2 minutes ago, Rinteru said:

Its baseless complaint Imo, because what, you cannnot spam your abilities?  You still can have tons of energy you just have to work for it. I have energizing dash and basic zenurik passive at level 4 and im never running out of energy even of im playing spam saryn or spam nova.

You can switch to operatorany any time, when you are switching you have invincibilty moment and just after that you can dash to ragdoll enemies or just enter void mode for extended invincibilty as long you have energy.

When it comes operators energy you can increase it with amps and zenurik. Also new arcanes can icrease your operator regen. When you get your first 

I wont deny operators are still weak. It seems thou you havent played enough of PoE to access some stuff that eould make this complaints gone. So go play some more.

And most importantly i said at the beginnig please refrain talking about focus, because its in dire state.

OK sir, you're right it's useless to talk about focus. I try to get used to that lol. But I'd like to say this. I'm not here to play a game with one fighter with different guns. I'm here to play warframe, by the name it is clear it should be more about warframes. If I want to play with that kid, there are a lot of better games that are like that. I love my operator and I think the war within and second dream are the best quests of this game. But I like em the way they were needed to do only some special missions and not interrupting the warframes playing. 

[Rinteru]

8 minutes ago, Crimson_Ruby_313 said:

OK sir, you're right it's useless to talk about focus. I try to get used to that lol. But I'd like to say this. I'm not here to play a game with one fighter with different guns. I'm here to play warframe, by the name it is clear it should be more about warframes. If I want to play with that kid, there are a lot of better games that are like that. I love my operator and I think the war within and second dream are the best quests of this game. But I like em the way they were needed to do only some special missions and not interrupting the warframes playing. 

And to that i made a solution earlier if you haven't looked. So that one of focus passives would be adding flat void dmg to your wep based of wep type. Would be less effective than amps but usable.

 

14 minutes ago, ADirtyMonk said:

There is a big difference between players who dont like the concept of operators and players who dont like the operators because they are so weak. I strongly believe even the former group can be convinced to come around if the operator buffs were significant enough. A couple of reasonable face/hair presets couldnt hurt either.

Also Operators, by lore, should be stronger or as strong as warframes because they are an uncontrollable reservoir of void energy used to power warframes which are just constructs that can channel that energy in very specific ways (abilities). If you read Ember Prime's and Rhino Prime's description Operators were so volatile the Orokin had to sleep them to keep them from blowing up everything around them which is not what we currently see in game.

Well i dont know about it if we could engage more community into operator thing and its subjective. But i also feel that lorewise they should be way powerful. Unless deeper personalization like personality options would be available as disscussed earlier.

[Fallen_Echo]

25 minutes ago, Rinteru said:

 

For me switching is fine as it is right now, could get some minor tweaks. However when you exit of of your frame you get momentum, its quite fluid. I dont know what is wrong with it? 

It breaks the initial flow, because the operators are slower than warframes switching gradually slows you done as fast as you touch the ground. This combined with the fast pace we dictate here often means that you are abruptly slowing down in an area full of enemies and if the dash decides to stop you on a slight elevation om the ground you are dead.

[Rinteru]

8 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

It breaks the initial flow, because the operators are slower than warframes switching gradually slows you done as fast as you touch the ground. This combined with the fast pace we dictate here often means that you are abruptly slowing down in an area full of enemies and if the dash decides to stop you on a slight elevation om the ground you are dead.

Well thats true, thou these are those minor tweaks i mentioned. Personaly i would focus more on dash ability to so we dont stop after doing like with slide we got with PoE update. I dont know if focus speed passive fixes this speed issue after switching,  never tried.  But yeah it surely shouldnt be locked in focus school.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Rinteru

[Fallen_Echo]

25 minutes ago, Rinteru said:

Well thsi creates some conflictt operators cannot be better than warframe because there is playerbase if you havent read that dislikes operators and a lot of players would say "is this warframe or operator game, operators are more powerful than frames, why play frames".  I agree thou on movement part they should get better movemnt set, dash feels not that good.

My long lost dream of operator combat looked like this:

You are doing an endless mission, the lv150 grineer pour through every possible door reinforced with the army of the corrupted.

Despite all common sense you are sure you can see your Atlas sweating under the heavy pressure.

One, two three of you go down, your rumblers crumble and only the your pityful wall keeps you safe from the horde.

-Enough. 

You mumble to yourself as you press 5 to unleash the void mode.

Your operator fuses together with Atlas granting him the limitless power of the void.

Your choosen focus was madurai, as the follower of the phoenix flames your warframe is now empowered with its destructing power.

Your fists with each attack release beam of energy disintegrating enemies, your wall turns into an armor of molten stone reflecting back all damage to attackers, your gaze empowers your allies to deal additional damage and your rumblers turn into orokin titans.

After the immortality phase wears down you are left with 1 life but with a frame much more powerful than before.

 

This was my dream, the operator combat what turns our frames into an armor weared by the operators to destroy those who oppose them.

[Rinteru]

19 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

My long lost dream of operator combat looked like this:

You are doing an endless mission, the lv150 grineer pour through every possible door reinforced with the army of the corrupted.

Despite all common sense you are sure you can see your Atlas sweating under the heavy pressure.

One, two three of you go down, your rumblers crumble and only the your pityful wall keeps you safe from the horde.

-Enough. 

You mumble to yourself as you press 5 to unleash the void mode.

Your operator fuses together with Atlas granting him the limitless power of the void.

Your choosen focus was madurai, as the follower of the phoenix flames your warframe is now empowered with its destructing power.

Your fists with each attack release beam of energy disintegrating enemies, your wall turns into an armor of molten stone reflecting back all damage to attackers, your gaze empowers your allies to deal additional damage and your rumblers turn into orokin titans.

After the immortality phase wears down you are left with 1 life but with a frame much more powerful than before.

 

This was my dream, the operator combat what turns our frames into an armor weared by the operators to destroy those who oppose them.

Haha i have similar dreams. For example you jump out of warframe. Your operator has a bow created based on amps and void energy. you start shooting enemies. Your arrows have infinity punchthrou. However you cannot keep up with amount of the enemy around. Since you are on Zenurik school, you decide to move around a bit find a good spot and charge super arrow that gets more dmg and range the more it is charged. Then you destroy everything in front of you. ( i even have some art of that since im' an artist and i can link it if you want ). These are dreams thou. However I dreamed about open wolrd also in warframe. It is finnaly there. I belive that devs will finnaly notice that community is giving them so much feedback and they will do something about this. It will take some time thou cuz rn there are like 200-300 ppl that take care game dev for warframe.

[Mattoropael]

20 hours ago, Rinteru said:

EDIT: Please refrain talking about focus. Its in dire state i know. Rebecca twitted that they are discusing that.

The costs and gains I will not argue, but it is simply impossible to discuss Operators in their current state properly without touching the subject of Focus. This is not Focus 1.0 anymore where Focus and Operators did nothing to each other.

Even without considering the vast cost of Focus 2.0, the biggest issue I have with it is how useless the Operator is even after you unlock them all. Unless you're literally forced to use the Operator (e.g. Chains of Harrow, Teralyst, Kuva Siphon), there is absolutely no reason to use the feature beyond "use once at the beginning to get the residuals" whatsoever outside a very few niche applications and many cases of enforced synergy through features that should be residuals.

The amps don't scale, their actives still suck (save Energizing Dash and maybe Vazarin's heal-dash), and you get an overall package that has almost no value to normal Warframe play (residuals don't count).

 

56 minutes ago, Rinteru said:

Its baseless complaint Imo, because what, you cannnot spam your abilities?  You still can have tons of energy you just have to work for it. I have energizing dash and basic zenurik passive at level 4 and im never running out of energy even of im playing spam saryn or spam nova.

You can switch to operatorany any time, when you are switching you have invincibilty moment and just after that you can dash to ragdoll enemies or just enter void mode for extended invincibilty as long you have energy.

This is the perfect demonstration of forced "synergy" between Warframe and Operator.

Let me show you some real synergy in Focus 2.0, versus DE's big idea of "synergy":

• Void Dash (especially if augmented by the new Zenurik and Naramon way-bound passives) on low-mobility frames (e.g. Assimilate Nyx) help those frames compensate for their biggest weakness.
• Energizing Dash is DE's idea of synergy (a word that apparently means "butchering an existing feature and force people to use Operator to regain it" to them), forcing Zenurik users to pop their kiddo out every 30 seconds, just to get a benefit that they used to get by clicking one button in the entire mission. *

Operator can be good if they actually feel like they add to the core Warframe experience, which they currently don't, and it's the same reason that people enjoyed Focus 1.0 more despite that being a different kind of trainwreck.

 

* Yes, that does mean that if Energy Overflow never existed before Energizing Dash is introduced, it would actually be fine, but it isn't. What we have now instead is that they took Energy Overflow away and used an inferior, tedious version that force people to use kiddo mode over something that used to be painless and convenient.

[ScribbleClash]

While I do not get annoyed by the operator anymore and actually enjoy fighting this way, there are several issues I take with the idea and/or the mechanics.

The reason I have/had a dislike for the Operator is mainly because before the Operator showed up, you were the operator. The omnious being controlling the warframe. I never wanted to know what was actually hidden inside the warframe, because I could believe it was myself. The whole projection onto the Operator does not work well, due to them being a defined age and having mostly their own personality that we can influence gradually.

The mechanics of the Operator in my opinion, are neither fluent nor consistent. The movement out or into the warframe seems cluky. After a void-dash all momentum is lost. Destructables may or may not be destroyed (explosive barrels vs. destroyable "switches" in spy missions, specifically in the Kuva fortress the hidden path with the reactor in the center of the tile).
We also do not get any useful information about our AMP we are trying to build. If you are building something so timeconsuming, you better get to know what exactly you will be getting. Focus is to slow in certain regards. Your Operator makes barely any progress and once you unlock something its a sudden powerjump. This does not feel right. Additionally the whole aim of focus currently is just to not need it anymore.

[Kooglio]

The whole operator thing is stupid.. its like the forgettable part of the storyline... but yknow at least I can accept it for the storyline and lore of the game... outside of that I don't care for it.

that operator section at the back of the ship could be walled off or of blown off for all I care..

yet they go and make focus 2.0 more reliant on jumping out into human operator, surrounded by enemies more than capable of killing it.. its dumb.. and so are most the focus 2.0 changes..

hell its ruined focus altogethor for me

atleast sticking lenses on warframes/weapons somewhat kept me attached to using them to grind focus.. now I don't even care to grind for that shh it;.

I've always thought warframe could do better to let a player take a weapon/warframe that they personally liked using (that might not be OP) and if they continue to play it they could eventually make that shh itty non-op warframe/weapon into something pretty awesome to use so that you didnt' have to use whatever OP meta was in play. Instead you're forced to follow the meta on whatever warframe/weapon/mods are the best. Focus could have done something to improve that situation.. in someways it did.. Ash is complete shh it;.. he's got a  re :tarded 5hour cutscene to use his ultimate that's just off putting.. but with naramon focus1.0 you atleast had a route to making him pretty damn good for high levels with melee play, that you would want to play that warframe yknow what I mean, not anymore though.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Kooglio
8====D~~~~~ mess with language and expression and you die

[Rinteru]

3 hours ago, Mattoropael said:

The costs and gains I will not argue, but it is simply impossible to discuss Operators in their current state properly without touching the subject of Focus. This is not Focus 1.0 anymore where Focus and Operators did nothing to each other.

Even without considering the vast cost of Focus 2.0, the biggest issue I have with it is how useless the Operator is even after you unlock them all. Unless you're literally forced to use the Operator (e.g. Chains of Harrow, Teralyst, Kuva Siphon), there is absolutely no reason to use the feature beyond "use once at the beginning to get the residuals" whatsoever outside a very few niche applications and many cases of enforced synergy through features that should be residuals.

The amps don't scale, their actives still suck (save Energizing Dash and maybe Vazarin's heal-dash), and you get an overall package that has almost no value to normal Warframe play (residuals don't count).

 

This is the perfect demonstration of forced "synergy" between Warframe and Operator.

Let me show you some real synergy in Focus 2.0, versus DE's big idea of "synergy":

• Void Dash (especially if augmented by the new Zenurik and Naramon way-bound passives) on low-mobility frames (e.g. Assimilate Nyx) help those frames compensate for their biggest weakness.
• Energizing Dash is DE's idea of synergy (a word that apparently means "butchering an existing feature and force people to use Operator to regain it" to them), forcing Zenurik users to pop their kiddo out every 30 seconds, just to get a benefit that they used to get by clicking one button in the entire mission. *

Operator can be good if they actually feel like they add to the core Warframe experience, which they currently don't, and it's the same reason that people enjoyed Focus 1.0 more despite that being a different kind of trainwreck.

 

* Yes, that does mean that if Energy Overflow never existed before Energizing Dash is introduced, it would actually be fine, but it isn't. What we have now instead is that they took Energy Overflow away and used an inferior, tedious version that force people to use kiddo mode over something that used to be painless and convenient.

I said to refrain from talking about focus because there is already so many topics about it. I found it intresting that there is part of community that dislikes operators for what they are not that there are problems with focus 2.0. Personaly i find energizing dash accaptable. I would prefer few tweaks to it. However I dont want energy overflow to be back. If they were to change energizing dash than I'd love to see diffrent mechanic that would allow you to get energy regen but with some effort put into it. Sth like harrows energy for shooting.

I dont meant in any way of synergy ( thou i like the idea of nyx/void dash syneregy ). I just explained that you still get your energy back. I feel like focus is goin in right direction focusing on operators. Thou a lot of abillities should be tweaked/buffed some changed. As many times mentioned in this discussion  seems that operators should be more powerful.

 Well actualy why operators should add even more powers to the warframes ? What would it change ? Warframes are already stupidly powerful.  Like what would you do if you were a dev and tried to add to the core game experience by introducing operators ? 

[Hobzor]

Operator Mastery

 

First off, general tweaks and changes I would suggest.

 

Mobility: Currently the Operator is still frustratingly slow, I’d increase their base speed about 30%, looking at a video maxed Mind Step appears to get them a respectable sprint speed so boosting them to that level by default would work then Mind Step boosts it further.

 

Abilities: I’d unbind Void Mode from crouch, having no choice but to use it is annoying, sometimes I just want to duck not turn invisible, plus we can’t properly slide with the current setup. Bind it to 2 or something.

 

I’d suggest Void Dash take the place of the little slide thing we have instead of dodge roll on the Operator, besides retaining its current function. Dodge to the side Operator Void Dashes that way, dodge backwards, reverse Void Dash, etc. “Void Evasion” though I’d suggest have a lower cost than regular Void Dash.

 

Void Blast I’d suggest making more like the Blast powers of Infamous 2 or Force Push in Force Unleashed. Increase base range and damage. Bind it to 1/quick cast.

 

Unless something changed or I encountered a glitch Void Blast currently halts the Operator’s momentum, as if they didn’t have enough mobility issues. This I would remove, if I want to jump towards a target and blast it I should be able to do so without stopping dead in the air while the animation plays. I think this is also an issue with Void Mode, run, jump, cloak, full stop drop to the ground like a rock. Not fun in a game where maybe a fourth of a fun is just moving around.

 

Survivability: To be addressed.

 

Void Damage: Impulse is to say have it ignore armor and shields but that might be going too far. I saw someone mention the idea of it having a different detrimental effect against each type of armor/health. So maybe it converts a percentage of it’s damage to the type most effective against whatever it’s hitting? Just something to make it more meaningful and more in line with that it’s Void Energy! Which in lore plays merry hell on everything. A chance to trigger bullet attractor isn’t good enough nor does it make sense thematically.

 

Moving on:

 

Ranks

 

Initiate: Current state. Awards two stat points. Void Beam, Void Blast, Void Dash and Void Cloak unlocked. Operator Melee is unarmed sparring, low impact damage. Unlocks Operator stat tree.

 

Silver Initiate: Reaching rank awards two stat points. Unlocks first tier of perks for Operator.

 

Gold Initiate: Awards two stat points. Unlocks first tier of upgrades for abilities.

 

Novice: Awards three stat points. Unlocks Void Blade: Operator Melee. Default form is single katar style blade (Protoss Zealot Psi Blade), deals equal amounts of slash, puncture and void damage. Unlocks Void Shield: Passive defensive power giving the Operator a shield charged from their energy pool. Void Shield blocks damage that bypasses normal shields.

 

Silver Novice: Awards three stat points.

 

Gold Novice: Awards three stat points.

 

Disciple: Awards four stat points. Unlocks Void Blade variations: Dual (second katar blade), Skana, Glaive, Bo and Kogake. Each variation has the base stats of the real weapon it resembles with additional x% Void damage added to it.

 

Silver Disciple: Awards four stat points.

 

Gold Disciple: Awards four stat points.

 

Seeker: Awards five stat points.

 

Silver Seeker: Awards five stat points.

 

Gold Seeker: Awards five stat points.

 

Hunter: Awards six stat points.

 

Silver Hunter: Awards six stat points.

 

Gold Hunter: Awards six stat points.

 

Eagle: Awards seven stat points.

 

Silver Eagle: Awards seven stat points.

 

Gold Eagle: Awards seven stat points.

 

Tiger: Awards eight stat points

 

Silver Tiger: Awards eight stat points.

 

Gold Tiger: Awards eight stat points.

 

Dragon: Awards nine stat points.

 

Silver Dragon: Awards nine stat points.

 

Gold Dragon: Awards nine stat points.

 

Sage: Awards ten stat points

 

Silver Sage: Awards ten stat points.

 

Gold Sage: Awards ten stat points.

 

Master: Awards eleven stat points.

 

Middle Master: Awards eleven stat points.

 

Grand Master: Awards eleven stat points.

 

That’s not all I’ve got but I’m not sure where I’d place certain things, not even one hundred percent on where I put the things that are there.

 

Operator Stats

 

Vitality: Health.

 

Energy*: Energy, obviously.

 

Shield: Once unlocked.

 

Agility: Functionally Rush for the Operator. Also increases Jump height/distance and increases distance the Operator can fall before taking damage, bracing and shielding them with Void energy.

 

Inner Focus: Functionally Intensify, Continuity, Stretch and Streamline for the Operator.

 

Operator Perks

 

Idea basically being like the Gene Tonics from Bioshock 1&2, the actual perks from Fallout games and even the passives of the Frames themselves. No specific examples at the moment.

 

Operator Skills

 

Mobility: Double Jump, Triple Jump, Air Dash (Void Dash already fills this spot), etc.

 

Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3iUT4pH0gU

 

Wild Goose being a good example of what I meant with “Void Evasion”

 

Void Sprint: Double tapping and then holding sprint key/button puts Operator into a super sprint/sustained Void Dash. Not invisible but semi-intangible, reducing incoming damage if attacked, rendering them immune to knockdown and other CC effects and of course retaining the Void Mode fall damage negation. Drains energy while sprinting.

 

Levitation: Operator movement becomes levitation. No longer affected by ground hazards. No fall damage or at least they have to fall much farther to suffer any.

 

Power Upgrades/Modifiers: Example: Radial Void Blast: Void Blast becomes an omnidirectional bubble (Force Repulse from Force Unleashed, among other examples). Void Blade Variations would fall under this (and keeping in mind that said variations would be by weapon type, even under the best circumstances I wouldn’t expect them to make an Exalted form of every single melee weapon).

 

Also since some Focus nodes give the Operator abilities close to or basically identical to some Frame abilities: Void Blade skill: Void Slash: Similar to Slash Dash but more like Ciri’s Blink Strike in execution and function:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V-5OepG7Ls

 

Elemental Attunement: Ability to add elemental effects to powers and give the Operator resistance to elemental effects. Higher level allows combined elemental effects/resistances to be used. Each element/combined element is separate, requiring points be spent on it individually.

 

Transference: At a certain level (Sage?) Transference can be given a bleed over effect, allowing Warframes to directly benefit from some Operator stuff: Such as gaining the speed buff from the Operator’s Agility stat, the power Strength, Duration, Range and Efficiency buff from Inner Focus, the resistances from Elemental Attunement, etc.

 

Power Ideas: Since I’m suggesting putting Void Blast and Mode/Cloak as 1 and 2 may as well suggest a 3 and 4.

 

3: Void Wisp: Creates a Void energy wisp that follows the Operator like a Sentinel, when the Operator attacks the Wisp echos the attack (only Void Beam/Amp attacks), firing after the Operator. Max of three Wisps when fully upgraded, Wisps fire in sequence when echoing Operator attacks. Upgrade/Modifier: Link, percentage of damage taken by the Operator is transferred to the Wisps.

 

Void Specter: Creates a doppelganger of the Operator. It’s a Specter, we all know what it does. Max of three.

 

Void Barrage/Storm: Creates a “cloud” of Void energy above the Operator that releases a hail of explosive energy projectiles on nearby (100m?) enemies or random arcs of Void lightning like from Fissures, except instead of corrupting enemies it just damages and stuns them.

 

4: Void Archon: Ghost Operator Returns, sorta. Operator levitates and gains a distortion effect that diverts incoming ranged attacks like Turbulence (not all but some) and an armor/shield buff. For the duration of the ability Operator can float around and attack as you like, other abilities are amplified. Just a neat little Super Mode.

 

Or! Each Focus School has an ability you can choose in their tree.

 

Madurai

 

Phoenix Gaze: While active Void Beam/Amp attacks are replaced with Phoenix Gaze. Operator fires a continuous beam of energy that pierces through enemies, dealing high puncture, heat and void damage. Max range 100m(?) several meter AoE around impact point/s, leaves a trail of fire, procs heat damage. My first impulse is to follow naming and say the Operator actually fires beams from their eyes.

 

Unairu

 

Bastion/Juggernaut: Creates a 30m(?) field around the Operator that blocks incoming damage and gives a buff to allies inside it, increasing their armor by X%. Buff persists for 30(?) seconds if allies leave the field but refreshes if they enter it again. Buff persists for 30 seconds after ability ends. Field moves with the Operator and remains active for it’s full duration even if the Operator returns to their Warframe, in which case the field moves with the Warframe.

 

Naramon

 

Vital/Precision Strike: All enemies within 50m(?) of the Operator have weak points exposed (Sonar effect) and are made visible on the mini-map. Void Beam/Amp attacks are replaced with high speed projectiles that home in on the exposed points, dealing Void damage. Enemies killed with these attacks disintegrate. Attack is silent, kills on unalerted enemies count as stealth and the attack deals Finisher damage. Projectiles have punch through. Allies can see and attack the weak points to of course.

 

Vazarin

 

Draining Tide/Leaching Tide(?): Creates a field around the Operator that slowly steals health from enemies that enter it and gives allies in the field a lifesteal buff on all attacks that damage enemy health (basically making us the Leech Eximus). Allies also gain a Link effect, causing a percentage of damage from any source to rebound to the attacker. Both buffs remain for a short while if the allies leaves the field and after the ability ends.

 

Zenurik

 

…

 

Okay I’ve got nothing for Zenurik. Any ideas?

 

Anyway, all these abilities would have a specific duration, notable energy cost for activation (but don’t drain energy while active) and a cooldown at least as long as the duration of the ability itself before it can be used again.

 

Of course all of this would have to somehow be interwoven with Focus and I’ve got no idea how to go about that at the moment. Also no idea if my list gives to many or too few points, the idea would be that you could never have everything maxed out all at once, instead putting points where they would best serve your playstyle. BUT! You’d be able to reassign points whenever you want in the Operator equivalent of the Arsenal.

 

That all said I’d also like expanded customization of the Operator.

 

I know it would take a while and require money and getting voice actors but I’d like to see some new lines that account for time since the Second Dream/War Within, replacing lines that sound like the Operator is just now finding out about some things. Also update whatever it is that triggers their dialogue, I was sneaking through a level, hadn’t been detected once or even gotten physically close to any enemies and my Operator randomly declares “That was a close one”.

 

Also make each voice set different beyond being spoken by a different person, one more reserved and thoughtful, one more energetic and cheerful, one more Valkyr, etc.

 

More and better hairstyles because as is we look like we punched the barber and insulted their mother before they cut our hair.

 

I wouldn’t suggest body sliders, that way lies madness, but I would suggest a couple different body presets for customization. Even assuming the Operators are in the fourteen to sixteen range people can vary a lot in physical build, I went to school with a couple really short and undeveloped people and a few people who puberty hit like a truck. Although with proper limits I guess body sliders wouldn’t be so bad.

 

That's my current half-formed thoughts/ideas.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Hobzor

[Rinteru]

11 minutes ago, Hobzor said:

 

I mean these ideas are nice and all and some of them I like a lot but to my question is rather why would you want those changes? Why operators are but in your opinion. Its all we can do rn is say we it is bad. I don't belive devs will take any ideas into consideration ( maybe a few ), because they prefer probably inventing their own.

[warjo.]

19 hours ago, Lisztomaniac said:

sorry for the confusion i was the one to bolden those letters to make a point, having read your post i see where youre coming from, and yes i think the trees need some "actives" for operators among the nodes,  like "ultimates" in common talent trees, as for the waybound.

i will respond to your points to keep it clean

A.- i dont understand why you say this, youre suposed to pick A tree, maybe its my past experience with all these talent/masteries systems, but most game ask you to focus on only one tree with maybe a little of the next tree (the latter is missing in this game i agree), but by no means have i even been led to believe i am entitled to use more than one focus tree at a time, i was even presented with a choice in the quest that made it seem like a huge deal (first i thought we werent going to be able to pick 2nd schools at all).

B.-i havent dealt in way-bound territory but the way i was let to understand it is, the way-bound nodes are operator upgrades only if im not mistaken, which to me make sense, since if youre going to be becoming an eidolon hunter, you will want a stronger operator and will be earning that much focus which in turns makes an even stronger operator, in this way it makes sense to me, that the waybound nodes are operator only in the current iteration, but i would like to see way-bound focused at WF's, or at least actives that help the warframe.

C.- not sure which enhancements you mean, if you meant the enhancements on the focus trees, then no, they are not grindy, they are only grindy if you want them all as ive repeated a lot of times over my posts, you can go naramon and just pick power spike(no need to get the last point), dissorienting blast (no need to max it,  its only to unlock dissarm but 20% its decent chance for just a neccesary point) and dissarming blast, all these adds up to a little more than .5 mil,  if you want to level affinity spike (which you most likely will) its around another .5 mil, so its about 1mil, for 45% extra melee xp, dissarming blast (mini loki ult) and a surrogate body count mod (at higher combo counter is better than body count). NOW if you meant operator amp enhancements, then yes those are grindy as hell, but i dont use them and ive been enjoying the utility focus brings merrily.

D.- didnt quite understand your point there

F.-yes on that i agree, some focus nodes are just flashy, like madurai firing a fireball, or zenurik electric zap (i got it just purely out of cosmetic impulse), tho im not an operator player i dont know if those abilities get stronger with time, however the things i used as example were all utility things, they are not "flashy", they serve utility purposes for diferent situations, the operator (unless you want to main an operator) its just a tool to achieve your WF goals (ironically).

 

note: i havent spent more than 500k on any given focus tree, yet the utility the operator brings me its noticeable enough that  i dont mind switching to him in combat from once in a while, its like the WF playerbase expects everything to be about big numbers and firepower, understand that unless you want to focus on operator mainly youre not suposed to fight as one, operator its only a tool, you dont go around the mission spaming stuff from your gearwheel because those are tools, dont go running into cmbat as operator if youre not an operator player, just use the tools it provides, in the right moment.

dont go trying to solo that eximus hallway with your operator, go with your melee ivara, and the moment youre going to die, jump into operator mode and use the transition times plus operators E to make breathing room for your ivara, its like peoepl are so used to guns doing so much damage, that they forget you dont need the damage from those guns, if you have the skill and set up to make up for it.

Sory for the confusion In this post as well

Number B and C are supposed to be 2 problems that are connected. For example the only way to incress the operator health is through vazarin and uniru. Uniru give you operator armoer and vazarin gives health and regen. So if you want to incress the durability of the operator you have to go through one of these trees. However you can't regenerate any health of the operator naturally. No natural regen, No regen when not using the operator or your in your warframe, And abliityes like trinity healing does not work. The only way for an operator to gain more health is to DIE, have a extreamly expensive operator only arcane (witch you need to be 2nd last rank in quills) or chose vazarin.

Though I would like for this to give the operators maybe slight regen at the beginning this as being part of the argument in B is livable.

In the idea that the way-bound are suppose to make it so that a operator of any focus school can have those buffs this is ok. You require a flawless eidolon shard in order to make it global. With the information so far I could just simply get the first rank make it global then move on to a focus school I would rather be in. However you can't actually make the way bound globul untill you to completely max it out that focus node. And to top it all out it take a significant amount of time to max these out my point in C. A statistic was done and in some trees it was like half the total amount of focus that you could put in the tree just the unlock.

Even if they don't want to decrees the grind to max a waybound node they should at least allow us to make them global at any level.

 

Point D was less the eidolon lens and more lenses in general. I wish they could be replaced so I did not feel like I had to stick to a certain weapon. Simply punting on a lenz on a weapon gives me anxiety because I feel like I might be making the wrong choice.

 

In You conclusion we seem to have just about the same Idea of how DE can improve however we come to the conclusion in a different way. We both agree that if you don't want to use use the operator alot don't. So we should not make the operator so powerful that you are forced to use him. The only time operators should in power the player buy a noticeable degree is when they need something that there current war frame is not build for. Like in your ivara example. The operator has a nice void mod ability to get you out of a sticky scenario fast.

I do however feel like the operators instantaneous power is maybe a bit too much in some areas. If your in trouble you can hit 5 gain 2 sec of invulnerability and then have void mode making you invisible and immortal. Unirus ability to while immortal make every one else invisible and then also nearly immortal is very strong. I don't know how long you can use it but the idea is there as it does incress the amount of energy use by alot. Being able to right of the back revive other while using void mode it also quit powerful. The operators definitively need ability's that have a lot of instantaneous power for players who don't want play as operator to use it. However some of this I feel is a bit too much and that it is too safe in some areas. Because the operators are so safe and powerful in that one instance it make it intuitive to spam it over and over again witch actually ends up pissing off players who don't want to use the operator. I don't know how they would do this but part of this feels like increasing energy cost of void mode or having a delayed reaction to when you trying to enter it. This will not reduce all the way the operator has too much instantaneous power but it is an idea.

The other thing is that after that instance the operator does not feel very useful or fun. I do sorta like to use the operator. But there is not much you can do with them. I feel as though the operator power should be moved a Little bit from instantaneous and balance it out by making them a little more powerful out side of that instance. I would like abilities that are more active and interesting that don't just simply modify to basic abilities. Possibly making there areas at witch they have great instantaneous power on some sort of cool-down or just in-general not as spam-able as operator abilities are now and you did seem to agree with this statement. I would expect this part to be in another update as this would be a lot of work. But it is the direction that I think they should take the operator in.

 

[Noponis]

They take infinity grind to not be instantly dead worthless pieces of S#&$ only useful for mandatory bits or getting through plains of eidoboring faster

They are the absolute antithesis to what entices people to play this game

The movement and being a cool badass space robo ninja thing

Their movement is quite pathetic and unfun and BOY are they neither cool nor badass

And their random mission dialogue is straight up taken from Jaden smith's twitter

I still love this game mostly, but operators really drag it down to me'
We're obviously too far in to just take them back out, but they could start by making them more good as a baseline, toning down the absolutely 100% mandatoryness of them for certain enemies and maybe adding less awful visual customization for them.

[Hobzor]

1 hour ago, Rinteru said:

I mean these ideas are nice and all and some of them I like a lot but to my question is rather why would you want those changes? Why operators are but in your opinion. Its all we can do rn is say we it is bad. I don't belive devs will take any ideas into consideration ( maybe a few ), because they prefer probably inventing their own.

I like the Operator in concept but feel they need to be...more? They are the Tenno, the source of the Warframe's powers, they're bonded to the Void and it's infinite, logic and physics defying power. Focus already hints at greater variety and scale of their potential power. Lorewise the Tenno were able to fight Sentients closer to the way we currently fight Grineer and Corpus, Mirage slaughtering hordes of Sentient fighters solo for example and now Gara (even assuming it was actually a full squad or even raid team that took down the Sentient on the plains and knowing that either way it was likely equal parts power and skill, not just power alone). Lotus said after the Second Dream that the Operator's connection to the Frames was stronger and that as a result they would be more powerful than before, that doesn't really seem to have affected anything though, even with Focus passives.

My biggest issue with the Operator gameplay is mobility, they're slow, everything seems to halt their momentum, their one mobility option in Void Dash needs Void Siphon/Flow and Mind Sprint to get them around at decent speed and Mind Step increases their sprint speed to what I think it ought to be by default. Second biggest issue is that even the squishiest Frame is drastically more durable and has options besides hiding to increase their survivability.

Which ideas did you really like? I'd just really like something that focuses on the mystical, ninja warrior monk thing for the Operator that also buffs the Frame while allowing people to build for their desired playstyle.

[SordidDreams]

On 10/26/2017 at 5:21 PM, Rinteru said:

why do you dislike them

Because they are worse in every way than a Warframe, so playing them is less fun. They have crap damage, crap toughness, crap mobility, and they look puny and scrawny compared to the badass warframes. Their weakness makes them especially bad when confronted with enemies that are tuned to present a challenge to warframes, against which an operator dies instantly, but they feel bad even when just running around. Controlling them feels about as good as controlling Lara Croft did back in 1996. Of course I don't want to play them. Why would I?

I resent them because DE's solution to this is to just add enemies that are outright immune to everything except operators. That is an extremely inelegant and heavy-handed approach that results in nothing but frustration as you're forced to switch out of your fun warframe and into your unfun operator. DE has done a lot to make us use the operators, but nothing to make us want to use them. And guess what, when I'm made to do something that I don't enjoy instead of something that I do, I understandably end up resenting that thing and everything associated with it.

On 10/26/2017 at 5:21 PM, Rinteru said:

what could we do to make them better without removing them

Nothing.

The common suggestion is to just buff them, which DE just tried to do, but what are the possible outcomes of that? Possibility A, they will still be worse and playing them will still feel like a chore. Possibility B, they will become as good as warframes and there will be equal reason to play both. Possibility C, they will be better than warframes, so playing warframes will now feel like a chore.

Note that possibility B is absurdly improbable. Playing two characters in one and switching between their different abilities as required has been tried before with Equinox, and predictably it resulted in one form being outright better and used all the time to the exclusion of the other form. If DE couldn't balance one character against one other character, what makes anyone think they could possibly succeed in balancing one character against thirty four and counting other characters? It's not going to happen. It's just not. That leaves possibilities A and C, and neither is desirable.

The whole idea of operators is completely misguided from the start. Warframes were implemented first and were given a skill set that makes them extremely versatile and powerful. Operators are a tacked-on afterthought intended to be not-warframes. The fundamental problem is that the entire game was designed to be played with a warframe, so of course a character that is the opposite of a warframe, weak instead of strong, slow instead of fast, feels terrible to play that content with. The only way to make them relevant is to provide content designed just for them that a warframe can't do. But how do you do that when warframes are good at everything?

Well you either integrate operators into existing content or you keep them separate. If you keep them separate, you might as well just make a different game, so it's not a surprise DE didn't pick this option. They tried that with archwing and learned their lesson. The problem is the other option is no better. If you integrate operator-only content into warframe content, you have to make it immune to everything warframes can do, and then you end up in situations that are frustrating and feel like cheap bullsh_t from both sides. Oh, kuva guardians that I can't deal damage to for no reason. Let me just switch to operator real quick. Oh, regular enemies that kill me in two shots. Platforms too high for me to jump up to. Giant rooms that take ages to cross.

There just fundamentally is no way to make non-warframe operators relevant and fun without redesigning literally the entire game and all of its content, enemies, and tilesets to accommodate a non-warframe playstyle. And conversely the only way to make operators relevant and fun while keeping all the warframe-centric content intact is to redesign the operators themselves and make them into warframes in everything but name, in which case why not just make another new warframe.

DE designed themselves into a corner when they introduced operators, and the only way out of a corner is backwards. So far they're grinding their face further into it instead. This unfortunate misadventure has already done immense damage to WF in opportunity costs. Imagine if all that money, time, and effort spent on developing operators was instead spent on new tilesets, bosses, warframes, and refinements to core gameplay mechanics (and there's plenty to refine and polish!). I just hope the devs see the light before it's too late.

Edited October 31, 2017 by SordidDreams

[Vesperos]

One (main) problem i have with the Operator is that it not really "serves/fites the role as glass cannon". Normaly thos are pretty weak (what the operator basicly is) but therefore dish out a lot of dmg in a single hit/timespan. Imo the Operator is more an "glass pistol" then an "glass cannon" cus the dmg is decent and equal/lower then my current moded weapon with a frame that can take way more dmg then my Operator what makes him basicly useless in most situations.

Next to this... the leveling of the Operator or rather said the school... it´s tedious and it´s made "more complicated" then it needed to be. You need the lense of the school that you can install in a maxed out weapon/frame to get an minor amount of points where you needs thousands and thousands of to unlock 1 single node (minor info i don´t powerlevel so i never hit the focus cap anyways). It would have been way better if kills of the Operator would convert the XP of the enemies directly into the focus of the current selected school cus THEN i would feel like i did something for it instead of simply "jump to my best frame/weapon and kill everything without of worry about getting downed in no time" making the Operator mode (again) useless cus your frame/weapon does the job for ya.

Then we have the missions... oh wait there are no REAL missions for the operator to be used for instead of the Kuva Missions where you need your Operator to Void dash into the Kuva clouds for some reason. and then the Vomvalysts and Teralysts... well you only need your Operator for those cus so we can gain the cores from Vomvalysts and to reduce the shield of the Teralysts... after that (you guessed it) your frame does the job again for ya.

So long talk short sillyness the Operator currently only has the feeling of beeing an "forced need" then rather an "real need to be used for" cus basicly what the Operator can do your frame can do it way better in combination with the poorly school system that requires way more work then leveling a frame with main/secondary and melee weapon equiped.

Currently the only positive side i see on Operator is beeing an invisible revive unit that you can pull out without energy usage for doing so. On the other side i also need to mention that i still need to farm a lot of standings for the Quills for having access to the other AMPs and cus farming standing for the Quills is "so easy" and exiting it still might take a while for me lol. Usally i have nothing against farming stuff but the Quills take this to an whole new level of anoyance for me.