Focus "3.0": Revamp to better incentivize Operator + Warframe gameplay

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, Synpai said:

I don't feel detached when I leave my warframe, I'm often doing it to not die,

Invincibility button, right.

 No, the way operators are right now they are a hindrance to the game. They don't open new gameplay options, the only option they open is to either use warframe or the operator to do the exact same thing - combat. Operators don't complement warframe gameplay and mechanics, they're actively and quite forcefully are trying to replace it with their own gameplay and mechanics (which is an obvious downgrade).

[Synpai]

7 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Invincibility button, right.

 No, the way operators are right now they are a hindrance to the game. They don't open new gameplay options, the only option they open is to either use warframe or the operator to do the exact same thing - combat. Operators don't complement warframe gameplay and mechanics, they're actively and quite forcefully are trying to replace it with their own gameplay and mechanics (which is an obvious downgrade).

A lot of frames have an Invincibility button more or less.

Operators aren't the best, but I can't say they don't have their uses.

The whole point of this post is to fix where operators are from my point of view with little effort.

And really warframe gameplay and mechanics are broken. It's a series of broken things trying to fight one another. It's weird, but some of the broken makes the game fun.

Either way, I've thought of your perspective in the process to this post and found it didn't suit (lel) my view of how the two should interact. There's validity in that gameplay style, just not what this post is about :] understandable if you disagree, but I recommend taking a look through them all; may inspire your design decisions.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Synpai said:

A lot of frames have an Invincibility button more or less.

 Which is a huge issue on its own. DE suddenly decided that if enemies are invincible half the time, it's ok to make warframes invincible as well. Next thing all frames in the game will be called Wukong. Invincibility seems to be a universal solution to all gameplay problems these days.

1 hour ago, Synpai said:

Operators aren't the best, but I can't say they don't have their uses.

What uses? Is there a single use for operators that isn't a forced mechanic designed specifically to justify operators' presence in the game?

1 hour ago, Synpai said:

The whole point of this post is to fix where operators are from my point of view with little effort.

 And I fully support that effort, but you're suggesting more of the same thing. The problem is, we already have this in the game and it doesn't work. Mind, your perks are MUCH BETTER than what is present in the game. So that's a good thing. But the main fault is in the way transfenrence-mechanic-thing was initially designed. I have a theory that it was rushed during TWW (yes, rushed) and now we're stuck with it.

1 hour ago, Synpai said:

And really warframe gameplay and mechanics are broken. It's a series of broken things trying to fight one another. It's weird, but some of the broken makes the game fun.

There's a difference between "broken" and invincibility on demand. Just "broken" could be easily tolerated in a PvE game, but invincibility on demand is beyond broken - it's disengaging, which is an absolute crime for any game to commit.

1 hour ago, Synpai said:

Either way, I've thought of your perspective in the process to this post and found it didn't suit (lel) my view of how the two should interact. There's validity in that gameplay style, just not what this post is about :] understandable if you disagree, but I recommend taking a look through them all; may inspire your design decisions.

 In your post you focus on perks. You don't think about enhancing the gameplay aspect, only about making operators more actively usable. My concept, on the other hand, was focused on how Focus should feel and work in conjunction with the rest of the core gameplay mechanics without obstructing or replacing them (fleshing the core gameplay out, wherever possible).
 Your suggestion is much more feasible, but it's another step in the same wrong direction - away from the core gameplay mechanics.

Edited December 29, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Synpai]

11 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Your suggestion is much more feasible, but it's another step in the same wrong direction - away from the core gameplay mechanics.

It's been mentioned before, but I'll reiterate. Gameplay changes, and thus what is/was core has the ability to change. In fact, static gameplay rarely survives. 

While mods are core to warframe, looking at Augur Pact vs Magnum Force can show that beating a dead horse can have its drawbacks.

 

Warframe design isn't refined or correlated, they make changes that they feel will include more players/make current players involved pushing to build a game that both them and their players love. That sort of passion is a double-edged sword especially with the resources at DE's finger tips. Sacrifices (ha) have to be made; sometimes things come in undone. I.E: It's volatile and ever-expanding (not saying it's good or bad; it just is).

Remember the companion balance that was supposed to happen, Kubrows with pack mentality and such? It's safe to say that if Archwing is still alive and finally got somewhat integrated (still waiting on air support for arch weapons) then the Operators will find their light.

I can't say it's good nor bad to step away from the "core gameplay" by which I can only assume is "Warframes and Weapons are all that matter" because that would involve evaluating the current state of Warframe as a whole, and that's not what this post is about.

I can say for certain that it would be nice to have more gameplay space, mechanics, and styles and Operators can provide that.

Even now they open up options that part from the norm and much like an annoying (but good?) college professor I implore you to explore that for yourself.

 

The game is evolving into more than what was. The core is changing to actively involve operators and that's just a fact.

Operators being purely passive make them nothing more than ship decorations/plot bots and I can't blame people for not wanting to deal with them, but it's not where I wish for nor anticipate the game to go, thus the purpose of this post is to explore what I believe would make operators interesting, fun, and effective to open up more gameplay possibilities and allow for higher skill/mechanical play.

At the least, we agree that they don't work in their current state although our methods differ. 

I do think your post has the potential to bring in more interesting Operator arcanes :D.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Synpai said:

The game is evolving into more than what was. The core is changing to actively involve operators and that's just a fact.

 Actually, no. The fact that it takes so much overengineering to even make operators perform any function at all is a direct proof of how poorly they fit with the game. When realistically the only practical functions operators could be used for are the ones being designed specifically with a purpose of justifying their existence in mind, it's pretty safe to say that otherwise operators are incapable of finding their natural role in the gameplay. In their current state operators' kit is so impractical, that DE have to engineer specific gameplay exclusively for them, making it also incredibly forceful and intrusive. 
 Operators are a quicksand to Warframe, something DE accidently stepped into during TWW and now unwittingly sink deeper and deeper with each attempt to get out. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Iccotak]

On 12/28/2017 at 12:43 PM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

The problem is that "puzzle" boils down to invincibility phases and retracting from core gameplay expierience by forcing players into the operator mode. It's not a puzzle. It's a bulletsponge that forces you into a vastly inferior set of gameplay mechanics compared to what we already have. 

I am not talking about the boss fights where we have to use operators to fight. I don't like that stuff. 
I am talking about the platforming and level designs that we saw were designed around Operator movement in mind. Like when we were going around in the dungeon of the mountain in the TWW quest.
I don't think they belong in combat but I think they would be great for puzzle sections in the game. Like when players switch to Clank to explore places Ratchet can't fit.

[Iccotak]

repeat removed

Edited January 4, 2018 by Iccotak

[AperoBeltaTwo]

5 hours ago, Iccotak said:

I am not talking about the boss fights where we have to use operators to fight. I don't like that stuff. 
I am talking about the platforming and level designs that we saw were designed around Operator movement in mind. Like when we were going around in the dungeon of the mountain in the TWW quest.
I don't think they belong in combat but I think they would be great for puzzle sections in the game. Like when players switch to Clank to explore places Ratchet can't fit.

 Designing puzzles specifically for the operator is increbidly labor-intensive and operators don't actually have any unique movement capabilities that warframes aren't capable of. So the only way of justifying those puzzles in the game would be creating more of the "operator-only" tiles like in Chains of Harrow. Which is basically the same thing as making bosses only vulnerable to operator damage.
Q: Why can I only go there as an operator? Why can I only damage the boss as an operator?
A: Because Devs said so. 
 This is incredibly forced game design, that wouldn't occur anywhere else in the game except these particular instances. That's why I think operators are so harmful to the game in general - they are a dead weight that cannot be naturally justified by the gameplay, yet DE push them onto the players with forceful mechanics and specifically engineered from ground up challenges, that waste their own resources while amounting to nothing but frustration in terms of gameplay expierience for the players. 

[Sader]

So I've been focus farming every day since Plains of Eidolon dropped.

I ACTIVELY play my Madurai operator, and when I say play, I mean really, actually play. Like outdamage other peoples warframes play, like actually farmed and use arcane play, like unlocked every waybound outside of Madurai and stuffed it into Madurai play.

It's pretty clear to me you are asking for changes to something you have clearly never played. Which is why I suggest that you actually sit down, farm out focus. Build your amps (I've built 4), build your arcanes, waybound your skills and actually utilize your operator. Then and only then will you understand what a lord of dogS#&$ this post is.

And now in order to at least add some "constructive" criticism to your post, and to also show you how little Madurai really needs to perform better I will list the following, LOW IMPACT, changes I would make to Madurai in order to make it scale better with the current game.

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Flame Blast

Raise Flame Blast Damage from 200% to 1000%

Reasoning: Flame Blast Damage doesn't scale well when compared to the damage the Pencha prism which can crit for 24,000 void damage, needs a bit more damage to be useful against enemies in the 100+ level range. With this change Flame Blast should hit for about 10,000 to 15,000 fire damage uncharged.

Rising Blast

Keep current Damage bonus of 100%, with the increase of Flame Blast to 1000% the charge will be sufficient. This would allow flameblast to hit for ~ 20,000 to 30,000 damage charged. However, have a fully charged rising blast also increase blast radius by a good 25% this would would stack well with Unairu's blast radius waybound. Also when a 100% charged Rising blast is used, let it create an area of flame on the ground that does the same damage as Blazing Dash which is currently 1000 damage per second for 14 seconds.

Meteoric Dash

Completely useless as it currently stands, only adds +400 damage to enemies. Not worth the points and completely overshadowed by Blazing Dash in every way.

Replace Meteoric Dash with a flame "blast" that does ~ 10,000 fire damage in an area when you void dash into the ground, while also creating a wide flame area that uses the same damage as Blazing Dash which is 1000 fire damage per second for 14 seconds.

Void Radiance

Reduce Energy Cost of Void Radiance from 50 energy on leaving void mode to 5 energy, keep current duration and range.

Void Radiance (Even with full zenurik waybounds) costs too much energy to be useful at all, even a 5 energy.

Void Strike

Allow void strike to affect ALL operator abilities, ESPECIALLY flame blast and cap the damage at 10x damage (It currently has no cap). This would allow the operator to charge up a tactical nuclear fireball strike for massive damage.

In the case of Rising Blast it would allow the operator to remain in void and charge a maximum 300,0000 damage fireball, with flames that would tick for 10,000 fire damage per second for 14 seconds. In a pretty decent area. Sounds OP? My lenz hits for 1.9 million damage and all I have to do is pull the string back, so It's a lot less OP than you think.

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In closing:

I pretty much hate all your Madurai changes.

I could go through all the trees like you did and list a couple QOL changes that would easily make operators more competitive that would be far better to implement than the sweeping changes you listed. I suggest you actually farm of your focus and really PLAY your operator extensively before asking for changes on things you so clearly don't understand.

[Iccotak]

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Designing puzzles specifically for the operator is increbidly labor-intensive and operators don't actually have any unique movement capabilities that warframes aren't capable of.

eh, I tried the puzzle designs they made for Warframe movement and they are atrocious (imo) 
I find the Operator movement system far more oriented for puzzles.
 

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

they are a dead weight that cannot be naturally justified by the gameplay, yet DE push them onto the players with forceful mechanics and specifically engineered from ground up challenges, that waste their own resources while amounting to nothing but frustration in terms of gameplay expierience for the players. 

Yeah, they are dead weight when it comes to combat. Which is why this thread is discussing ways to make them less so.
It is becuase they invested time and resources that it is unrealistic to ask DE to make them an entirely optional mechanic. You don't have to do Archwings with everything, but there are levels that you have to use them if you want to complete them.
So instead of creating an overly complicated and convoluted justfication and change to both the story and gameplay in order to remove them, lets improve the Operators and make them viable.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

39 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

eh, I tried the puzzle designs they made for Warframe movement and they are atrocious (imo) 
I find the Operator movement system far more oriented for puzzles.

 Warframes can get anywhere operators can get - faster and much more reliably. There's no point in having another movement system in the game. Your point is just subjective - "I don't like it". Subjectivity is never a legit point. I'm not a saint in that regard myself, but saying "I don't like it so it's bad" or "I like it so it's good" isn't incredibly productive. That's why I try to talk about functionality first and avoid talking about opinions as much as I can.

39 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

Yeah, they are dead weight when it comes to combat. Which is why this thread is discussing ways to make them less so.
It is becuase they invested time and resources that it is unrealistic to ask DE to make them an entirely optional mechanic. You don't have to do Archwings with everything, but there are levels that you have to use them if you want to complete them.

 The thread is discussing how to make Operators better compete with Warframes in regards to functionality, without realizing that we already have a good combat platform in the game and there is absolutely no reason to have another one. What's the point of having in mission two units that are functionally identical and mechanically compete for the player's controls?

There was never a reason to have another unit in the game that replaces warframes in combat to do the same thing warframes do better anyway. 

 That's the primary reason why Operators' presence in the game is so hard to justify and why it requires so much overengineering and forced mechanics to make them any useful. DE done goofed. Happens. But instead of realizing that mistake, they push forward with it, further tangling themselves in the Operator mechanic without being able to make it work.

 Optional, you say? Operators' switch mechanic shouldn't have even existed in the first place. It's a grave mistake that continues to hinder the development process of the game more than a year after TWW. It's like a rotting limb at this point, it's necrotic. You could continue trying to make a dead limb work, but you'll just end up with a full-body sepsis that would only make you even more sick.
 Archwing is a mini-game completely separated from the core game expierience, that's why it's so easy for people to avoid it completely. Apart from a few frustrating moments. archwings exist in their own section of the game easily forgotten. But Operators are being pushed everywhere.

39 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

So instead of creating an overly complicated and convoluted justfication and change to both the story and gameplay in order to remove them, lets improve the Operators and make them viable.

 That's the thing, for the past year DE were actively trying to create an overly complicated and convoluted justifications to both story and gameplay in order to justify the presence of Operators. And they didn't succeed. Even after all this effort and resources wasted, operators are still just a forced mechanic used only in limited, specifically engineered instances. And the fault lies with the very basis of Operator mechanic that forces you to switch your Warframe for this other thing. I have no idea why this was done in the first place, but everybody makes mistakes. It's understandable. But do DE even see it as a mistake? - that's the question. And if they don't see it as a mistake, how do they justify it for themselves?

Edited January 4, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Synpai]

5 hours ago, Sader said:

It's pretty clear to me you are asking for changes to something you have clearly never played. Which is why I suggest that you actually sit down, farm out focus. Build your amps (I've built 4), build your arcanes, waybound your skills and actually utilize your operator. Then and only then will you understand what a lord of dogS#&$ this post is.

That's one way to communicate. I've farmed focus every day, long before PoE dropped. I have 6 amps and EVERY focus school maxed (with millions left over) not to mention the ~500 shards I have sitting. I could have built every operator arcane three or more times over, but I use Virtuous Strike, Magus Husk + Vigor for reasons I'm sure you know. It's safe to say I have farmed my focus and then some (and I've used every focus school in depth before making this post). The original notes mention that schools have lack luster abilities and don't feel worth the investment (Not that focus schools are trash/useless themselves), although they can be useful the two are independent of one another (meaning they can be useful but still not be worth the investment). Which glancing at your QoL changes, you at least agree to that to some extent.

This post started as QoL changes, but I just ended up fully redoing them to sate my perspective. DE wont see it either way, so I just went all out.

It's perfectly fine if you don't agree with my approach, but best to leave the insults and assumptions at the door.

[Sader]

6 hours ago, Iccotak said:

eh, I tried the puzzle designs they made for Warframe movement and they are atrocious (imo) 
I find the Operator movement system far more oriented for puzzles.
 

Yeah, they are dead weight when it comes to combat. Which is why this thread is discussing ways to make them less so.
It is becuase they invested time and resources that it is unrealistic to ask DE to make them an entirely optional mechanic. You don't have to do Archwings with everything, but there are levels that you have to use them if you want to complete them.
So instead of creating an overly complicated and convoluted justfication and change to both the story and gameplay in order to remove them, lets improve the Operators and make them viable.

 

Dead weight when it comes to combat?

Operators (Unless you're an Unairu and are good at controlling your armor stripping dash) only fail to kill one enemy type, Grineer, simply because they have armor.

Operators can murderize Corpus and Infested well into level 100+, they are more than viable, and the do far more damage than your average warframe player.

The problem is the vast majority of people don't have them leveled because all they hear about operators from other people are how "bad they are". Which is exactly the same stuff people said about Archwings, but turns out if you just stick a forma or two into your Archwing they are just fine.

The issue isn't operators, the issue is the gates DE put up to actually leveling and gearing an operator. Those gates (daily xp caps) need to come down, so that people don't have to commit to a daily regime of focus farming for 2+ months to figure out the stuff I've figured out. Some of these Operator Arcanes are game changers in terms of operator DPS. The arcane Virtuous Tempo, turns the Pencha Scaffold into a monster, but most people will never build a Virtuous Tempo because it takes an age to get the 30 Heart Nyth necessary to build one, not to mention the 1 hour build times and the fact that you need 10.

Most people will never know that Magus Husk (Another 30 Heart Nyth) + Unairu Waybound + Vazarin Waybounds makes your operator more tanky than a warframe, instead people's only impression of their operator is the fact that they step out and get shot and die instantly. The difference 650 health, 4 health regen a second and 200+ armor make is substantial, my operator almost never dies and at times I choose to go operator form simply because its safer than my current warframe.

Most people don't know that with Magus Cadence (30 Sentirum) and Naramon passive your operator can run at 120% runspeed anytime you dash and that this works WHILE IN VOID MODE, turning the operator into on of the best Spy mission "Warframes" in the game. Forget your loki, ivara, etc, bring whatever you want and just run the entire mission as an operator. Madurai's Blazing dash can kill enemies in stealth missions and they wont even turn on alarms.

 

1 hour ago, Synpai said:

That's one way to communicate. I've farmed focus every day, long before PoE dropped. I have 6 amps and EVERY focus school maxed (with millions left over) not to mention the ~500 shards I have sitting. I could have built every operator arcane three or more times over, but I use Virtuous Strike, Magus Husk + Vigor for reasons I'm sure you know. It's safe to say I have farmed my focus and then some (and I've used every focus school in depth before making this post). The original notes mention that schools have lack luster abilities and don't feel worth the investment (Not that focus schools are trash/useless themselves), although they can be useful the two are independent of one another (meaning they can be useful but still not be worth the investment). Which glancing at your QoL changes, you at least agree to that to some extent.

This post started as QoL changes, but I just ended up fully redoing them to sate my perspective. DE wont see it either way, so I just went all out.

It's perfectly fine if you don't agree with my approach, but best to leave the insults and assumptions at the door.

 

You say you've used every focus school in depth, but have you really? Have you taken your operator into missions with the express purpose completing the mission as the operator while in groups? Because to me it sounds like you haven't, which is why your changes are so sweeping and completly throw out almost everything that makes the current operators good.

In your vase, Virtous Strike and Magus Vigor are Eidolon arcanes. They are more useful in the Eidolon fight then anywhere else, build yourself a Virtuos Tempo and a Magus Cadence. Grab your Pencha Scaffold + Lohrin / Juttni Brace and try to run missions as Unairu / Madurai / Zenurik with the goal of using your current abilities to the maximum. I don't include Vazarin and Naramon trees here because those specific trees lack the combat abilities of the three I mentioned, but a properly played Unairu / Madurai / Zenurik with the arcanes I mentioned can keep up (quite easily) with your average warframe player in speed, mobility and damage.

What this will show you is that its not about sweeping changes, its about gradual incremental changes. 

Currently Madurai is the perfect anti infested operator, blazing dash and fireballs (though fireball damage is still rather low) roast infested well into level 100+

Zenurik is currently well placed to be the anti corpus operator, their lightning dashes really mess with corpus pretty badly.

Unairu has armor stripping but it currently suffers the same problem that Madurai had previously, void dash need to have its ragdoll removed so Unairu could strip armor like this:

 

Massive threads asking for massive sweeping changes get approval from most of the people on this forum because none of them actually have any understanding of what operators can actually do, I blame DE for making operator leveling such a long drawn out process, but I also blame everyone else for not really learning the ins and outs of their operators, because they can currently do a lot more than people think they can.

Almost every mission where I go "Full Madurai Super Saiyan Mode" the mission ends with people asking me what the hell I was doing with an operator that allowed it to actually compete with a warframe.

 

[Synpai]

19 hours ago, Sader said:

-snip-

As I've said, I've used them all extensively. I've done Sorties and other missions using only my operator and amp. I enjoy my operator being tanky; it's a conscious decision to not use cadence. I know exactly how useful operators are, doesn't mean my point isn't valid. I lean toward (prefer) using my operator and Warframe in unison regardless of mission. 

Just because I enjoy using the P. Tetra and have found a way to make it powerful doesn't mean the weapon and it's augment don't need work in general.

Again, the changes started small, but at the end of the day I don't regret pushing to the overhaul. It's understandable if you don't support it. In many of my comments on this post, I am defending the usefulness of Operators, but it's irrelevant to my post overall.

This post shows the style of play I'd like to see, doesn't mean there aren't worthless abilities apart of the trees, nor does it mean the operator can't currently perform as well as Warframes.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Synpai

[Iccotak]

12 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 The thread is discussing how to make Operators better compete with Warframes in regards to functionality, without realizing that we already have a good combat platform in the game and there is absolutely no reason to have another one.

I don't think "compete" is the word we are looking for.
Co-operate, co-depedence, and/or work together.
Titanfall is a game that has a pilot and mech that operate differently but work together very well. It's that kind of balance that we are seeking with Warframe.

I want them to be more puzzle oriented (and we could have more puzzles for them) but Operators are part of combat and that's that. So how do we improve them?

[blacklusterseph]

6 hours ago, Sader said:

Massive threads asking for massive sweeping changes get approval from most of the people on this forum because none of them actually have any understanding of what operators can actually do,

I think much of the frustration over Focus in the game as a whole is actually this:

6 hours ago, Sader said:

Most people don't know that with Magus Cadence (30 Sentirum) and Naramon passive your operator can run at 120% runspeed anytime you dash and that this works WHILE IN VOID MODE, turning the operator into on of the best Spy mission "Warframes" in the game. Forget your loki, ivara, etc, bring whatever you want and just run the entire mission as an operator. Madurai's Blazing dash can kill enemies in stealth missions and they wont even turn on alarms.

The background I think is tacit resistance from the playerbase to a gameplay system that seems to be evolving specifically to make warframes redundant even if that isn't DE's intention. I understand thematically and from a lore prespective why it might happen, and if that is DE's long term vision that is their perogative, but as a player drawn to the primary gameplay mechanic, I would be somewhat disappointed.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 hours ago, Iccotak said:

I don't think "compete" is the word we are looking for.
Co-operate, co-depedence, and/or work together.
Titanfall is a game that has a pilot and mech that operate differently but work together very well. It's that kind of balance that we are seeking with Warframe.

I want them to be more puzzle oriented (and we could have more puzzles for them) but Operators are part of combat and that's that. So how do we improve them?

 It's not the word I want to see either, but it's the only word I could find to describe Operators literally forcing Warframes away from the controls. They don't cooperate, you can't use the two simultaneously and functionality of both Operators and Warframes is similar to the point where they fill the same role.

 Titanfall is a completely different issue. Titans and pilots there aren't functionally identical and there is no easy mechanic to just swap one for the other. You have to play the pilot for a while, then you get to play the titan. Both units are distinctly different from one another. They move differently, they play differently, they fight differently. Operators on the other hand are just a downgraded version of Warframes that is just present in the game for no discernible reason.

 And you have to realize now that there are no puzzles in Warframe. Warframe is not a puzzle-oriented game. The closest we've come to having puzzles is the spy missions and those are warframe-based step-sequencers that you simply get to memorize. Any new kind of puzzle would have to be designed from scratch only to justify the presence of the Operators in the game. Those puzzles won't add anything to the core gameplay and would adhere to the exact same mentality as Kuva missions, Operator-exclusive quest sections and Teralyst shields. Forced mechanics with a blatant reasoning behind their design.

 Operator mechanic isn't working for this game.

Edited January 5, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Iccotak]

15 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Titanfall is a completely different issue. Titans and pilots there aren't functionally identical and there is no easy mechanic to just swap one for the other. You have to play the pilot for a while, then you get to play the titan. Both units are distinctly different from one another. They move differently, they play differently, they fight differently. Operators on the other hand are just a downgraded version of Warframes that is just present in the game for no discernible reason.

Operators don't play like Warframes. They move differently, they play differently, they fight differently.
Warframe and Operators are not functionally identical.
In fact, what I see most people dislike about Operators is that they play nothing like their Warframes and it detracts from their fast paced space ninja fighting. 

16 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

And you have to realize now that there are no puzzles in Warframe. Warframe is not a puzzle-oriented game.

Warframe is not puzzle oriented, but there are puzzles like the ones on Lua. IMO they are badly designed puzzles and Operators mechanics would serve better for those activities. 
Putting Operator specific puzzles througout the game could make unlocking the Operator mechanic more rewarding as it adds another layer to previous locations. To find things and access activities we could not before. Like the Eidolons. 
Many games do this where we go to a map and find things we can't do or can't access until we earn something later down the line.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

58 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

Operators don't play like Warframes. They move differently, they play differently, they fight differently.
Warframe and Operators are not functionally identical.
In fact, what I see most people dislike about Operators is that they play nothing like their Warframes and it detracts from their fast paced space ninja fighting. 

-__- Gosh, if you say so. I guess then the difference between two humanoid units of the same size in the same game shooting and using abilities is just as big as the difference between a parkouring soldier and a giant mech.
 (I know sarcasm doesn't relate very well on the internet, so I'm telling you that was being sarcastic right now)

58 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

Warframe is not puzzle oriented, but there are puzzles like the ones on Lua. IMO they are badly designed puzzles and Operators mechanics would serve better for those activities. 
Putting Operator specific puzzles througout the game could make unlocking the Operator mechanic more rewarding as it adds another layer to previous locations. To find things and access activities we could not before. Like the Eidolons. 
Many games do this where we go to a map and find things we can't do or can't access until we earn something later down the line.

You're forcing me to repeat myself, so I'll just quote the part of my previous post you decided to ignore:

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Any new kind of puzzle would have to be designed from scratch only to justify the presence of the Operators in the game. Those puzzles won't add anything to the core gameplay and would adhere to the exact same mentality as Kuva missions, Operator-exclusive quest sections and Teralyst shields. Forced mechanics with a blatant reasoning behind their design.

 

Edited January 5, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Iccotak]

16 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I guess then the difference between two humanoid units of the same size in the same game shooting and using abilities is just as big as the difference between a parkouring soldier and a giant mech.

Being both humanoid shape and size does not mean they play the same.
Does the Operator do Parkor? No. its all void dashing. No bullet jumping, no wall hopping, balancing on wires, or anything of the like.
Does the Operator have access to the same warframe weapons; both guns and melee? No. You get a beam and provide de-buffs/buffs for the Frames.
Do Operators have the same health/shield/energy set-up as the frames? No.
Yes both Operators and Warframes "shoot" but so do the Pilots and Titans in Titanfall. There is a notable gameplay mechanics difference between Operators and Warframes.

 

15 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You're forcing me to repeat myself, so I'll just quote the part of my previous post you decided to ignore:

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Any new kind of puzzle would have to be designed from scratch only to justify the presence of the Operators in the game.

Most "New Kind" of content is generated from scratch. But that touches a different issue of Development balance of fixing existing content and creating new content.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 hours ago, Iccotak said:

Being both humanoid shape and size does not mean they play the same.
Does the Operator do Parkor? No. its all void dashing. No bullet jumping, no wall hopping, balancing on wires, or anything of the like.
Does the Operator have access to the same warframe weapons; both guns and melee? No. You get a beam and provide de-buffs/buffs for the Frames.
Do Operators have the same health/shield/energy set-up as the frames? No.
Yes both Operators and Warframes "shoot" but so do the Pilots and Titans in Titanfall. There is a notable gameplay mechanics difference between Operators and Warframes.

Void Dash is a downgraded version of parkour.
Amps are a downgraded version of regular weapons.
Void Blast is a downgraded version of melee.
Void Mode is overpowered version of regular crouching.
 So yeah, operators are functionally the same thing, but without the years of development DE put into warframes. You don't have a case, m8.

2 hours ago, Iccotak said:

Most "New Kind" of content is generated from scratch. But that touches a different issue of Development balance of fixing existing content and creating new content.

Tell me, do you really think that just adding more operator-exclusive puzzles to regular combat tilesets would make the game better and operators good? You can't be serious about it. How many steps far did you even think this through?
 Let's see (let's try connecting the dots, shall we? Remember, I told you how my thinking works? Or was it someone else...):

1.  Each individual operator-based puzzle would have to be created from scratch for each individual tileset to even have any impact on the gameplay in the first place. If it's just gonna be one or two nodes\tiles, it won't affect the game at all.
2.  There's 14 tile sets in the game right now, excluding the orbiter\dojo, archwings and PoE (PoE already has its share of forced operator-based mechanics). For each of those 14 tiles DE would have to design at least one puzzle to make your idea of puzzle-solving operators relevant.
3.  Puzzles would have to be designed completely from scratch, the same way TWW was done. It would take some time, certain amount of recources.
4.  Next DE would have to add these new puzzle tiles into the regular tile rotation on each individual tileset (there doesn't seem to be any other way of doing it). 
5.  Then, depending on the way those puzzle-tiles were designed, people would have two options: play them or ignore them.
6.  If there's a way to ignore them, the entire endeavour would be development time and resources wasted. People maybe play the puzzles once or twise and ignore for the rest of their playthroughs (however many hundreds or thousands of hours that might be) 
7.  So Devs would have to direct people into playing those puzzles somehow, otherwise it's just resources and effort wasted. They'd have two options: incentivize or enforce the puzzle-solving operator-based gameplay.
8.  To incentivize those puzzles you'll have two reward options present in the game: monetary or fixed item.
9.  Fixed item rewards (like exilus mods on the moon) you farm once and forget. (return to step 6.)
10.  Example of a monetary rewards with an operator-based mechanic is Kuva missions. Lovely gameplay, aren't they? For the first two hundred times. *sarcastic*
11.  On the other hand, to enforce operator-based puzzles DE would only have to make those tiles mandatory for the mission progression. You step in, and you can't go through untill you solve the puzzle. I'm sure players would love that. *still being sarcastic*
12. In the end you'll have a mechanic that would either be enforced or ignored. That exists only to justify the presence of operators in the game.
13. A mechanic that spent a lot of development time and resources without adding anything substantial to the core gameplay expierience, while trying to promote a secondary mechanic... for what reasons exactly? you really believe puzzles in an action game would make operators worth all this work^?

 Dude, find it in yourself to separate your emotional desire to object and your reasoning. Cause your emotional desire to object can't prove a point. Whatever you say under that emotional desire usually boils down to opinionisms, and opinionism is not a legit point in a conversation. I'm guilty myself - of both emotional desire to object and opinionisms, but right now I want to hear your proper reasoning. Cause I spent an awful lot of time talking to you, and I don't want to hear another "I think" or "to my taste" if it's gonna be the only things you say.

P.S. Read the post word by word. Don't skip the text. (again, being guilty of this myself)

Edited January 5, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Iccotak]

3 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Each individual operator-based puzzle would have to be created from scratch for each individual tileset to even have any impact on the gameplay in the first place. If it's just gonna be one or two nodes\tiles, it won't affect the game at all.

-Snip-

Stop. This is why, in a different post, I specifically said this puzzle activity should be added to Open Zones like PoE. Because the Open Zones are clearly becoming a core aspect in the game. 
Accounting for random generated tile sets would be over the top and no one would bother because players want to go in and get out.
Having puzzles in hidden parts of open zones could incentivize exploration and could give DE opportunity to implement Lore that players can unlock along with other helpful rewards.
Open Zones are all about exploration and re-visiting locales so puzzles would be great for that.
AND btw plenty of Highly Succesful Action Looter oriented games have side puzzles that reward the player for doing them.

 

3 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Dude, find it in yourself to separate your emotional desire to object and your reasoning. Cause your emotional desire to object can't prove a point. Whatever you say under that emotional desire usually boils down to opinionisms, and I personally hate those with a passion. I'm guilty myself - of both emotional desire to object and opinionisms, but right now I wan't to hear your proper reasoning. Cause I spent an awful lot of time talking to you, and I don't want to hear another "I think" or "to my taste" if it's gonna be the only things you say.

Dude, it's a video game. What you enjoy in that game is relies on your desires and preferences. 
Your entire arugment and your reasoning behind it is dependent on your taste, which is purely a Subjective topic
Your experiences are subjective. Not everyone plays, experiences, and/or feels about the game the same way you do. 

I say "I think" or "in my opnion" because what I have to say about the game is based on my experiences from 4 Years of playing it. I don't state my opinion on how I feel about certain mechanics or the state of the game as FACT. 
You consistently make broad generalizations and assumptions about the game and others that you are conversing with.

Case in Point. 
When we were having that Fishing resources conversation and people, incluing myself said we like it because it was a nice change of pace from Warframe action, you said:

Quote

I don't need a change of pace from Warframe. Wtf that even supposed to mean in the first place? If I want a change of pace from Warframe, I stop playing Warframe. I don't need the game forcing me into a change of pace from itself.

 

3 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Read the post word by word. Don't skip the text. (again, being guilty of this myself)

Stop making broad generalizations. Just because I don't respond to every point you make does not mean I don't read the whole thing. I just don't have enough time nor the care in my bugdet to address Every. Single. One in my responses.
Stop projecting, not everyone is you or acts like you. Everyone Is Different. 

Now, I have read your idea post and honestly I do not see why you continue to argue for it if you know it won't happen at all. Which you admited.

Quote

Obviously a drastic focus rework like this would require multiple changes made to the quests we have in the game. Which ensures that a change like this (or similar to this) will never happen. 

DE has invested time, energy, and money to create Operator mechanics and the Story, and what you want to do is take all that work and make it entirely Optional and therefore Pointless.
Essentially take a sledgehammer to the whole thing. Simply because it does not suit your tastes in both story and mechanics.
Lets say DE does do this new system that you propose.
1. Operators are now COMPLETELY redundant there is literally no point in having one. All that work is meaningless. and I quote: "If there's a way to ignore them, the entire endeavour would be development time and resources wasted."
2. Now they have to balance between those who kept the Operator and those who didn't. 
3. They have to create content, both story and mechanics, to satisfy those who kept the Operator and those who didn't.
4. They now have to take into account this HUGE change and let that ripple into all development descisions down the line.

I condensed it to a smaller list, because each one on its own is a Cluster**** of steps and design descisions. Because Each one has large rippling affects across the game. 

Rather than trying to find ways to make the Operators work, you didn't propose ideas to make them less of what you deem as "lesser Warframes", you didn't propose any way to make them more viable in the game, All you did was take one thing you did not like and made it an even bigger problem for youself and the developers..

"Lets take this big twist revealing who you really are, develop this story around it, and then... give you the option to get rid of it entirely".
As somone else put it.

Quote

It can't happen. It probably never will happen. They'd might as well completely obliterate the Second Dream and TWW.

This proposal would result in far more time, energy, and money than it would if they simply added puzzles.

This fact that you admit that your suggestion won't happen is why I questioned; If you have no faith or confidence in the developers then why do you stick around the forums? To which you said

Quote

Gosh, just hear yourself. This is akin to religion at this point. Why does anyone has to "have faith" in developers to enjoy a game? And why isn't it a waste of your time to tell people who disagree with your religion to "leave if they don't like something?" I heard this so many times from Warframe players already. "Leave if you don't like something" is the final argument people put forth when they cannot disprove a single point the opposition made. It's like: "Say whatever you want, I'm not listening!"-kind of argument.

(also)

 I can't convince you of anything if you're not willing to converse

Which is interesting considering you admitted to have faith in the dev team at some point and are not interested in having conversation but rather venting.

Quote

 I don't see any hope for this game, to speak frankly. I know it won't suddenly collapse tomorrow, but my loan of faith in a better future for Warframe has expired. I come to the forums to get rid of the ideas I have, vent a bit and move on with my life.

Here's some advice. Speaking from expereince. Sticking around on the forums is the WORST way to move on with your life.
When I came to the conclusion that Destiny and Evolve would never be the games that I wanted and lost all confidence in the developers; I left it all and I didn't look back. 
Because the truth is that the "Venting" will never stop. 
I don't like the new Star Wars but I don't spend time writing what I would have done or discuss it because I know that I can't change the past and nothing will change in a direction that I wanted. 

So You have no confidence in the developers, the game is not going in a direction you want, and You Acknowledged that what you want to happen will never happen.
The problem is that you consistently bring up your idea in nearly every thread on Operators (that I come across) to which we then spend time to dispell as fantasy. That is the opposite of letting go and on top of that comepletely detracts from the constructive conversation that the thread had started.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Iccotak

[anonymous14z]

BUMP, I really hope DE looks at this.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Iccotak said:

-snip-

 First of all, let's make it clear. Cause I stated this in my focus concept thread as well, I assume you read it. I don't expect my proposition to ever happen. Not really. Never did. It can't be done. It's even harder to do than your puzzle-idea-thing. At this point it's just too late.You cannot realistically connect the dots of my focus rework concept with the current game build. It's just never gonna happen. Especially not with the direction DE had taken for the past two years. They've done goofed and that's what I'm discussing here.

 But it doesn't change the fact that Operator system is inherently flawed. And that flaw stems from DE's ideological standpoint in regards to game design. Putting lore, and graphics, and junk content ahead of gameplay is what resulted in the mistake we've been discussing so far. The erratic development process, lack of firsthand gameplay experience and basic understanding of the capacity of your own gear system is what lead to the current state of Warframe, where 350h+ players complain they have nothing else to do in the game.

 You honestly believe, puzzles would solve this issue? PUZZLES?

 Now you even say you want those puzzles to be open map exclusive. You ignored every single point I made, and now you want Warframe to have huge empty open maps with a puzzle in the middle of each map. While... what's gonna happen to the starchart exactly? Building the starchart took much more effort and resources than both PoE and entire Focus system combined. And you think Warframe would suddenly transform into an open world with Operator puzzles in the middle, discarding all of that effort? Maybe try to be at least remotely realistic. Or don't, I can't force you to abandon your dream of a "finished product Warframe", as if everything present in the game right now is a placeholder. "Placeholder gameplay", yes. you did say that. That pearl would be really hard to forget anytime soon.

 Investing time, money and effort into a story with such an incredibly faulty base gameplay mechanic was an astonishingly bad idea. And DE continue on with that mistake without even realizing it. This is what I was talking about this whole time. Not of a way to solve the issue, but at least of a way to acknowledge and understand it. So to not repeat it again, which they did with the PoE open world extravaganza.

 Excuse me, that I didn't just leave the game I played for two years non-stop immedeately after being completely and crushingly dissapointed by it. Excuse me for still having a faint shred of hope for this concept. Excuse me, that I can't just go away and never come back, because I still care, unfortunately. Well, excuse me! Clearly, I come to the forums to vent. But saying that I'm closed to a conversation is absolutely unfair and untrue. I spent days and days talking to you, weeks talking to other people on the forums. Restraining myself as much as I could from going all bonkers on those who would answer any point I make with "I'm fine with that issue, it's ok, it doesn't bother me" or "I like it", as if those are somehow a legit support of their standpoints.

Edited January 5, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Iccotak]

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

as if everything present in the game right now is a placeholder

Never said everything. Thanks for clearly exageratting and taking what I said out of context.
Yes, the game is not solely supposed to be a corridor shooter. That was all they could make at the time five years ago and it is not until these last couple of years (this last year more importantly) that Warframe is recieving the resources they need to make more of the game they wanted. They themselves said this in a recent article.
https://www.polygon.com/2018/1/2/16830328/warframe-free-to-play-f2p-platinum

Not really a "pearl" as much as what I have observed as time has passed. Over the course of 4 Years.
This "Junk content has expanded" the game and PoE is expanding it in a better direction.
However the game you want and the game I want are clearly VERY different.
 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

you think Warframe would suddenly transform into an open world with Operator puzzles in the middle, discarding all of that effort?

Never said that. All of my suggestions build off of what is already there and already has a foundation. Never said tear it down and discard old stuff. That's on you.
 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Now you even say you want those puzzles to be open map exclusive. You ignored every single point I made, and now you want Warframe to have huge empty open maps with a puzzle in the middle of each map. While... what's gonna happen to the starchart exactly? Building the starchart took much more effort and resources than both PoE and entire Focus system combined. And you think Warframe would suddenly transform into an open world with Operator puzzles in the middle, discarding all of that effort?

It is pretty clear that if that is what you derived from what I said then you have not been reading what have been saying and making full blown exaggerations in your head.
Never said empty maps with only puzzles in the middle and never said puzzles was the cure to our problems. Just said it would add more.
If the PoE has nothing to do then the Star Chart has nothing to do. Which we know is wrong. 
Much of what I saw you had to offer in this conversation and the last was Exaggeration and Hyperbolical.
 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

But saying that I'm closed to a conversation is absolutely unfair and untrue. I spent days and days talking to you, weeks talking to other people on the forums

And? how long you talked with people does not mean you are open to conversation. It just means that you may have a hard time dropping it.

 

Quote

Excuse me, that I didn't just leave the game I played for two years non-stop immedeately after being completely and crushingly dissapointed by it. Excuse me for still having a faint shred of hope for this concept. Excuse me, that I can't just go away and never come back, because I still care, unfortunately. Well, excuse me!

What do you think I had to do with Evolve? 



 

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Restraining myself as much as I could from going all bonkers on those who would answer any point I make with "I'm fine with that issue, it's ok, it doesn't bother me" or "I like it", as if those are somehow a legit support of their standpoints.

Its a forum of a video game...maybe you should be less invested in it. Especilly when you admitted that you don't play anymore.
Also. Its a video game. Alot of what works for you is based on whether or not you like it. 
For the arguments that you presented as to why you don't like it; Many people have found the opposite to be true.
They have gone more into and explained their reasoning and you simply replied that what they were saying wasn't true. Those were their experiences. You expereinced it in a different way.
Neither of you see the game the same way. Not in what it is or could be.

I don't think the game is perfect but I offer constructive critcism for what exists to better it. I don't simply say remove it.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Iccotak