Focus "3.0": Revamp to better incentivize Operator + Warframe gameplay

[FreeWilliam]

1 hour ago, Synpai said:

I've been thinking about it and it's rough territory. More likely to be other elemental specters to avoid issues with respawning after operator death/spy missions.

Possible to tie them to arcanes or just conditional passives (Entering/Exiting warframe).

I've got a couple of ideas there!  I'll hash something together later, but more as a 'here's a possible approach' rather than a final thing.  I'm more a possibility refinement person than the one who finalizes things :)

The thought process is actually inspired by the story and what happened in the Second Dream.  I was thinking the Warframe would, by default, just stand there...but the choice of school and point allocation would allow the warframe to do specific things.  I was kind of fuzzy on the impact of skewing it towards certain schools (So Naramon would allow the Operator to spend points to enable their Frame to melee while they're in Operator mode, something like that).  

It'd be a little different, but I was thinking it would make Operator Mode a lot more lively and give us more reasons to explore it more (I mostly just use it in Kuva floods and to teleport my hamsterball Nyx all over the map)

Edited December 12, 2017 by FreeWilliam

[--Q--Illuminant]

I'd love for this to replace the current focus system. A lot of good and creative ideas here

[Kainosh]

I dont really like that schools got mixed up.

Madurai = damage.   Why does it have energy regen?  Why does it give operator armor?  

 

I think each schools should specialise on one thing.

  Madurai = all possible damage manipulations. From base damage buffs to damage exchanges. Like making your weapon deal all its damage as Slash for a set amount of time. That kind of stuff.

  Zenurik = energy.  Means it should provide stuff like "Leech aura resistance" and magnetic proc resistance to preserve energy.   I dont really like Passive energy regen....

Would be better if it allowed to sacrifice Operator's HP to get Energy replenished...Or something like that.  Free energy out of nowhere is not my thing.

  Unairu = Armor and damage redirection/reflection.  There are plenty of things you can come up with. From "iron skin" for operator, that explodes if you get melee hit, to armor shredding void blast that shoots out stone shrapnel.   Passive damage reflection is pretty dope as is.

 And such.

 

I mean....Dont mix em up.   There is no point in Zenurik and Unairu if Madurai can also regen energy and give armor.... You can as well just combine all schools into one.

 

[Synpai]

7 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Why does it have energy regen?  Why does it give operator armor?  

All of the schools have some form of energy regen, because having an energy cycle is essential to Warframe (the game) not just one particular school.

However, Zenurik does do it better than all the others.

 

The Operator armor was a joke about the current iteration of Unairu wisp (which gives Operator Damage for some reason).

 

7 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Zenurik = energy.  Means it should provide stuff like "Leech aura resistance" and magnetic proc resistance to preserve energy.   I dont really like Passive energy regen....

The first iteration was really a "Quick fix" I'll be going back through each school to update them after work.

I've been giving thought about Zenurik, but it's a double edged sword.  I use an Arcane Nullifier set when I go Eidolon hunting and it's absolutely terrible. It works when you're fishing since it's just a dip into the water here and there, but overall the probability is lackluster.

I like having things that are generally useful more so than specific when it comes to focus, but I'll make note to put that back up on the drawing board.

 

7 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Unairu = Armor and damage redirection/reflection.  There are plenty of things you can come up with. From "iron skin" for operator, that explodes if you get melee hit, to armor shredding void blast that shoots out stone shrapnel.   Passive damage reflection is pretty dope as is.

<---< Unairu has those aspects, but again the focus trees aren't that simple when you look at their whole description (which I admit TWW feels like a distant memory.

"They pushed themselves to Outlast the Enemy, to withstand all aggression without retreat. They believed that if the enemy could not match their endurance, then a battle could be won without having even commenced."

You'll see it has a lot of earthy elements and petrify in the design as well as a shrapnel shield, but Endurance and Outlasting the Enemy can take many forms, as such the extra ammo and loot fall into play.

 

7 hours ago, Kainosh said:

I mean....Dont mix em up.   There is no point in Zenurik and Unairu if Madurai can also regen energy and give armor.... You can as well just combine all schools into one.

I thought the strike out was enough to imply that the armor to operator on Madurai wasn't serious, but I'll make doubly sure people know it's a joke in the future.

As for the energy regen, I don't think that it should be a "has vs has not" as much as others having conditional means to regen their energy and not as much/efficiently as Zenurik.

As it stands the regen is the only factor (since it's one of ~3 good abilities in the tree) that makes people think "Oh let's play Zenurik" and that's terrible. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by Synpai

[Kainosh]

3 часа назад, Synpai сказал:

As it stands the regen is the only factor (since it's one of ~3 good abilities in the tree) that makes people think "Oh let's play Zenurik" and that's terrible

And so you decided so add it everywhere?  Instead of trying to improve each school in its own way.....just take the only good thing from Zenurik and slap it everywhere?

I don't like.

Magnetizing blast is also a pretty bad idea.  Because it ruins weapon precision by curving shots.  Means if someone magnetize lots of enemies, i can land headshots there anymore.  And people will spam that because wisps for buffs.

 

 

[Synpai]

1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

And so you decided so add it everywhere?  Instead of trying to improve each school in its own way.....just take the only good thing from Zenurik and slap it everywhere?

I don't like.

Please read the first half of what I said.

Zenurik does not have a monopoly on energy, I do believe it should be able to do it better, but that is not all the theme has to offer.

If you looked at my rework, which I'm 100% sure you haven't by now, you'd realized Zenurik got a lot more toys to play with than just energy.

1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

Magnetizing blast is also a pretty bad idea.  Because it ruins weapon precision by curving shots.  Means if someone magnetize lots of enemies, i can land headshots there anymore.  And people will spam that because wisps for buffs.

Well more likely for the Kill Skills than the wisp buffs lol.

Regardless, I've taken note, would you like to bring to attention something you liked?

[Kainosh]

9 часов назад, Synpai сказал:

Zenurik does not have a monopoly on energy, I do believe it should be able to do it better, but that is not all the theme has to offer.

If you looked at my rework, which I'm 100% sure you haven't by now, you'd realized Zenurik got a lot more toys to play with than just energy.

 Its like saying " EV trin does not have monopoly on energy" or "Harrow does not have monopoly on energy"....  There are tons of ways to get Energy.  Adding more is not a great idea. And some frames dont even need it.

 Your toys will not work together. They have 0 synergy.  Hanged up enemies are already disabled. Why would i want to Irradiate and disarm them?

Besides, there are Warframe abilities to do that stuff.  And we have enough of CC abilities in this game. Too much even.

10 часов назад, Synpai сказал:

would you like to bring to attention something you liked?

I like formatting. Nicely done.

Other than that, there is nothing interesting or unique for me to be like "Oh! Thats super great! Would make gamplay really engaging."

[FreeWilliam]

8 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Other than that, there is nothing interesting or unique for me to be like "Oh! Thats super great! Would make gamplay really engaging."

Got anything other than 'I think Zenurik should still have all the energy regen'?  It'd be helpful to see some solutions rather than problems.

However, I've got to say I vehemently disagree with the idea of letting energy be the focus of a single school.  It's a disproportionately useful resource and we already have EVIDENCE that even minor energy regen is too many cards in that basket.  This shouldn't be an argument when we already have the results of an experiment in play.

Either spread it out or leave it out entirely IMHO.   Leaving it exclusive to one school makes that one school too important to too many types of builds.

If we want all the schools to be useful and thrive, it's either that or find four other equally important things to spread to the other schools...and by definition that route is harder to balance and has more unintended consequences.

If you're insistent that X approach won't work, give people something constructive or take a little stab a it yourself and weather the criticism yourself.  This isn't easy stuff.

Edited December 16, 2017 by FreeWilliam

[DeltaPangaea]

Honestly, my opinion is that it'd work for Zenurik to be the only tree to have energy, but for it to be a Waybound.

[FreeWilliam]

1 hour ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Honestly, my opinion is that it'd work for Zenurik to be the only tree to have energy, but for it to be a Waybound.

I like that a lot better, but I think it still has the unintended consequence of nudging too high a percentage of people to lean towards one school above the others until they've managed to waybind it.

I think the goal should be to make choosing between the schools difficult because they're all appealing, with at least two being suitable for any given playstyle.

[Synpai]

On 12/15/2017 at 7:24 PM, Synpai said:

Magnetizing blast is also a pretty bad idea.  Because it ruins weapon precision by curving shots.  Means if someone magnetize lots of enemies, i can land headshots there anymore.  And people will spam that because wisps for buffs.

P.S: Magnetizing blast gives auto-headshots >.>
So....

[Synpai]

1 hour ago, FreeWilliam said:

Honestly, my opinion is that it'd work for Zenurik to be the only tree to have energy, but for it to be a Waybound.

<.< Waybounds are intended for operator abilities, and those are cluttered enough. Plus, having energy regen as a waybound... is the same as giving each school regen (however, instead of the others having lower as I suggested/intended, they would all just share Zenurik's) with an extra step.

Working on some goodies for an update tomorrow, just need to sleep on em.

[DeltaPangaea]

2 hours ago, Synpai said:

<.< Waybounds are intended for operator abilities, and those are cluttered enough. Plus, having energy regen as a waybound... is the same as giving each school regen (however, instead of the others having lower as I suggested/intended, they would all just share Zenurik's) with an extra step.

Working on some goodies for an update tomorrow, just need to sleep on em.

See, that's the thing. If your waybounds only apply to operators, then there's little incentive to actually want to go for a new tree you're not going to use as a primary, since it'll only help your tater.

And as another perspective, making it a Zenurik waybound's extra step only has to be done once, while with 'every tree has a regen skill', you'd have to unlock that skill for every tree in order to have it. Not to mention said skill consumes design space that could be used for something else.

[FreeWilliam]

15 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

 

And as another perspective, making it a Zenurik waybound's extra step only has to be done once, while with 'every tree has a regen skill', you'd have to unlock that skill for every tree in order to have it. Not to mention said skill consumes design space that could be used for something else.

Let's move away from 'Everybody has a strong incentive to spend a bunch specifically on one school', please.  If every other school doesn't have something at least as meaty, then it doesn't belong anywhere IMHO.

Edited December 17, 2017 by FreeWilliam

[DeltaPangaea]

2 minutes ago, FreeWilliam said:

Let's move away from 'Everybody has a strong incentive to spend a bunch specifically on one school', please.  If every other school doesn't have something at least as meaty, then it doesn't belong anywhere IMHO.

That's what I'm saying. Zenurik should have energy regen, but other schools should have other things that everyone should still want. Even IF people still want to get zenurik's first, them still wanting the others is a GREAT leap forward. Since ideally you'd want them all anyway.

I mean incidentally, I feel like the 5/s we have now is seriously overkill. 1/s would be plenty.

[Synpai]

16 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

That's what I'm saying. Zenurik should have energy regen, but other schools should have other things that everyone should still want. Even IF people still want to get zenurik's first, them still wanting the others is a GREAT leap forward. Since ideally you'd want them all anyway.

I mean incidentally, I feel like the 5/s we have now is seriously overkill. 1/s would be plenty.

Saying Zenurik is the only school that deserves energy regen is like being thrown into an arena and being presented a choice between weapons and use of your lungs.

Having energy is essential to Warframe's "Way of Life." 

So school's other than Zenurik having conditional ~1.5/s energy regen isn't going to take away Zenurik's value; It just wont take away the lil oxygen from the other schools.

 

Updated post to include Void Spiral mechanic. After a bit of processing, ability review, and feedback, I'll be adding an infested focus school for fun.

[DeltaPangaea]

Just now, Synpai said:

Saying Zenurik is the only school that deserves energy regen is like being thrown into an arena and being presented a choice between weapons and use of your lungs.

Having energy is essential to Warframe's "Way of Life." 

So school's other than Zenurik having conditional ~1.5/s energy regen isn't going to take away Zenurik's value; It just wont take away the lil oxygen from the other schools.

 

Updated post to include Void Spiral mechanic. After a bit of processing, ability review, and feedback, I'll be adding an infested focus school for fun.

Well isn't that what Zenurik is meant to be ABOUT? Energy, and the use of powers.

Yes everyone wants powers, but everyone also wants health and hp regen. Certain frames would benefit from certain trees more than others, but they're all stuff you'd still want.

What's the point of Zenurik if its 'thing' is given to everyone?

[Synpai]

9 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Well isn't that what Zenurik is meant to be ABOUT? Energy, and the use of powers.

Yes everyone wants powers, but everyone also wants health and hp regen. Certain frames would benefit from certain trees more than others, but they're all stuff you'd still want.

What's the point of Zenurik if its 'thing' is given to everyone?

An army of ghosts, UNLIMITED POWER (20% efficiency that you can share if you want, 50% extra energy from orbs, unconditional regen, 20% chance Lesser Entropy Burst), Electric slide (Pulling items and zapping enemies).

....Zenruik is not in threat of losing its title as energy king lol ( Not to mention the channel abilities).

Edited December 18, 2017 by Synpai

[Synpai]

Post moved to General Chat hype.

[Sakaira]

Like the Void Spiral ability addition, the fire blast and quicksand one sound rather neat. Although I only use Zen, since Nidus always ;), I like the idea of radiation field too. 

Hopefully some higher ups see all these focus changes, they're the best I've seen.

[Iccotak]

With "TWW" and "the Chain of Harrow" quest, it became clearer that one of Operators core game play function was solving puzzles and sometimes platforming, while the frame handle fast pace and killing.
Note: Each Boss that involved Operators had a puzzle design "how do I kill this boss?" - to solve

Here is a video that discusses creating a balance between two controllable characters. This is a system that I think Warframe could take after, with the boy being the operator and the beast being the frame.
 

 

[Synpai]

On 12/22/2017 at 8:42 PM, Iccotak said:

With "TWW" and "the Chain of Harrow" quest, it became clearer that one of Operators core game play function was solving puzzles and sometimes platforming, while the frame handle fast pace and killing.
Note: Each Boss that involved Operators had a puzzle design "how do I kill this boss?" - to solve

Here is a video that discusses creating a balance between two controllable characters. This is a system that I think Warframe could take after, with the boy being the operator and the beast being the frame.
 

 

Good video. Interesting to think how that would relay into warframe.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Synpai

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 10.11.2017 at 2:53 PM, Synpai said:

-snip-

 Didn't read all of it, but at first glance it seems like the main idea of your OP is to rework all focus trees to make operators more powerful and focus perks stronger... without changing the core concept of operator gameplay, which is the main problem, imho. The problem of operators is that they function in the same way as warframes and require players to choose either one or the other.
 Current Focus mechanic is like a fighter jet pilot jumping out of the cockpit midflight and trying to shoot an enemy plane down with a pistol. 

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 23.12.2017 at 4:42 AM, Iccotak said:

With "TWW" and "the Chain of Harrow" quest, it became clearer that one of Operators core game play function was solving puzzles and sometimes platforming, while the frame handle fast pace and killing.
Note: Each Boss that involved Operators had a puzzle design "how do I kill this boss?" - to solve

The problem is that "puzzle" boils down to invincibility phases and retracting from core gameplay expierience by forcing players into the operator mode. It's not a puzzle. It's a bulletsponge that forces you into a vastly inferior set of gameplay mechanics compared to what we already have. 

[Synpai]

24 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

The problem is that "puzzle" boils down to invincibility phases and retracting from core gameplay expierience by forcing players into the operator mode. It's not a puzzle. It's a bulletsponge that forces you into a vastly inferior set of gameplay mechanics compared to what we already have. 

I don't feel detached when I leave my warframe, I'm often doing it to not die, save other people, or debuff enemies when my warframe can't deal with them (or I just want free headshots), but I don't think the solution is "put the kid in time out they're bad at the job." I'd rather them be really good at their job and open up gameplay options and tactics.

But considering how long we've had Warframes at the forefront, I understand why the feeling is there. We were having fun playing with our space toys and mom's like "..but use this toy too, it's also fun." 

I think a better analogy would be a fighter pilot giving the wheel to his partner to  headshot someone (since they're out of ammo in the craft) then jumping back into the driver's seat.

 

 

But @Iccotak was saying that in reference to that video, the puzzle (in which the video refers) is how to kill the bosses.

Although it's currently like that, I believe that Operators will keep them from being invulnerable nonsense, but also preventing the oneshot/lack of challenge.