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Focus "3.0": Revamp to better incentivize Operator + Warframe gameplay


Synpai
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There is a lot to read here, an impressive amount of detail.  Hopefully when DE does get around to implementing a focus 3.0, they will have a lot of ideas to consider from here.  One thing I think is necessary though for a full 3.0 rework is the current balance of amps to weapons.  Without mods, it is almost impossible to find a good balance.  Amps certainly should not be as good as fully modded/formad/orokin'd weapons just out of the box.  However, if they stop being effective at all once enemy level hits a certain threshold, that seems to not be desirable either.  The only way I can see to balance amps to weapons is to have something functionally equivalent to amp mods.

One way I could see to do this, without just adding a whole bunch of new mods to the drop tables (which could spoil things for new players when they get a operator mod and are like 'wth is this?') is to make a void beam tree.  This would let you spend focus (perhaps from any school as this would be more of a 'generic' tree) to aquire mod-like enhancements to your void beam.  Much like other focus schools, it would have a capacity limit that could be bought up (and eventually would hit a hard limit), and you would have to split that capacity up between your mod-like enhancements to void beam.  It would remain modular, so that when you changed amps you could re-arrange your void beam abilities.

Instead of having a whole big list of void beam abilities to choose from, it might make sense to add an NPC into quills to unlock these abilities through the renown system, or have some other way to make some more rare than others.  Maybe mini-quests like 'defeat X number of Y enemy with void powers' and report back to the NPC to learn the new skill or some such, or build new sub-components for the amp using the foundry and blueprints.

However it' s implemented though, amps need to be better balanced to weapons if we are going to really see much of operator mode outside of middle-game content or when they are forced to be used.  Also have to be careful though to not make warframes obsolete.  There needs to be a clear line where warframes are better at A, B, and C while operators are better at X, Y, and Z.  Having it just be enemy types is kinda a poor way to do it, and it doesn't even work currently, as Brozime showed in one of his videos comparing a granmu prism amp to a well modded Hek against a lvl 50 Battalyst.  Needless to say, compared to the Granmu, the Hek just wrecked it (with occasional resistance strip by grazing it with void damage).

So, what things should an operator be good at compared to a warframe.  One thing I think should be versatility.  Warframes have their 4 abilities + passive.  I think an expanded school system as shown in this thread, done with moderation, could give operators more situational moments to shine.  Having an array of abilities, even if they are not as singularly potent as similar warframe powers, could help you fill in gaps in the roster for your mission.

Warframes should remain the clear winner when it comes to mobility.  I wouldn't mind seeing a little bit more agility for operators, but nothing to compare to a freaking mechanical suit.  If we see more mobility for operators, I would like to see more mystical transit modes, like levitation (but limited speed).  Operator's need to keep the 'mystic' feel and not just be another mobile weapons platform.

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I just had one more thought for how to keep both Operators and Warframes from overshadowing each other, and it's a bit of a step back to the original operator mode you get between 2nd Dream and War Within.  I feel like operator mode should be special, when I got it, it practically felt like going super saiyen.  I was invulnerable, and had this super beam which (at the time) shredded enemies that my warframe was having trouble with.  It felt good, it felt powerful, and it felt 'rare'.

Then I got the second stage, and it was fun, and the quest had me so hyped up for my operator that I /really/ wanted to like it...  but it was no longer rare.  It was always a button press away, and I could just go in and do whatever, because if I died I just could hit the button again and was at full health and energy again.  Also, because it's always a button press away, it can't be an invulnerable, super being of raw void energy that rips through everything... because then why would you ever use a warframe?  It stopped being rare, and so it stopped being special.  It just became a gimmick to take down sentients and eidolons.

So, how do we give it back some of that original magic?  One way I think (and this would require a lot of rework of existing schools) is to make operators not regain any health or energy while in operator mode.  While you are in your warframe, your operator would heal over time, even from 0 (Vazarin passive could make this faster) and gain energy (which Zenurik passive could accelerate and provide a bigger pool).  I think in this case, the energy pool could be much bigger, so you could save up a bunch, go nuts with operator powers for a bit, and then have to go back into your warframe to recover.

This way, it wouldn't be possible to use only operators, even if they became the most OP thing in the game.  You would always be linked to your frame, and thus still vulnerable since you wouldn't be able to spam your operator everytime they died.  When your operator is killed, you would be forced back into your frame, and your operator would be at 0 health and 0 energy...  to slowly regenerate while you have to use your warframe for a while.

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On 2018-08-22 at 12:57 PM, TaigenRaine said:

-Snip AMP stuff-

I think one of the issues with amp mods/ customization outside of parts is both the implementation and pace for Eidolons.

You can't affect an amp in one way and account for all the possible combinations, it's a great way to make sure balance gets outta hand to the point you have no idea what to do  but make everything scale into oblivion (basically how the game is without operators lol). I do understand that desire for amp custimization though.

Fortunately I gave the operators the ability to levitate/fly in this. cause yeah fun stuff. I feel Operators could open up vertical mobility with Void Gliding/Cometing: Warframes win indoors, Operators win Outdoors/in open spaces.

 

 

I'm not disagreeing on the Operators (I don't really watch videos) not being the end all be all to Sentient, but I will say that it's not right to judge them on anything but eidolons. The sentient we've seen thus far are likely not a good reference for what we'll see in the future, we may see more sentient enemies with straight up Eidolon levels of shielding, forcing us to effectively use both Operator and warframe to combat them.

 

On 2018-08-22 at 1:24 PM, TaigenRaine said:

This way, it wouldn't be possible to use only operators, even if they became the most OP thing in the game.  You would always be linked to your frame, and thus still vulnerable since you wouldn't be able to spam your operator everytime they died.  When your operator is killed, you would be forced back into your frame, and your operator would be at 0 health and 0 energy...  to slowly regenerate while you have to use your warframe for a while.

They really could make transference static more punishing in this concept TBH. Equally IDK how I feel about Operators being invincible in void mode either

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As I'm reading this, I feel like the more I read the more I feel like there's a bit too much. I think some simplification would go a long way to understanding and improving the idea, less individual ability powers and more general power I guess is what I'm getting at. However I'm just going to be clear, there's some serious ramp involved with this idea, but that was the goal and I can't fault you for that. 

Void Spiral for instance has four different states alone, it muddies the waters of what's being presented and actually harms the overall work you've put into this. I'm just gonna put this out there, there will be those players who will forgo even trying to understand these portions and if they forgo it in the writing they'll probably do the same if it were added. As I said, simplifying the concept here is absolutely important just for clarity.

Not to mention, I feel like the whole addition of buffs/debuffs on just having Void mode on (Void Duration) is a large case for non-interaction since it's basically fire-and-forget in most cases and ultimately broken in others (Unairu WTF! Calm down, that's too much D polarity for even me to handle). However, there's a ton of that in-game already so I can't say that DE isn't doing the same thing. I think it would be best if some of that was folded into the Channeling (Hyper-Transference), since in just the current state of the idea it's basically padding with a lot of the core abilities being the way they are and it just doesn't stand out even though it is a decent idea for interactivity.

However, that's not to say it's all gloom and doom from me, I REALLY like the idea of adding Wisps to the other trees and the idea of Void Comet is brilliant. I cannot express how much I like the Void Comet idea, just the movement options alone are awesome and a core part the warframe experience. Also, adding incentives to completing a tree through the Mastery/Respec system is interesting and somewhat better than "Way-bounding". Speaking of which, is there "Way-bounding" in this? Also, No Wall Latch Variant for Operators?

This is just an initial overview from me, but I'll keep reading and make some more detailed points later on. 

Edited by Dojutrek
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1 hour ago, Dojutrek said:

Speaking of which, is there "Way-bounding" in this? Also, No Wall Latch Variant for Operators?

Waybounds have been untouched, but mastery passives (adding a passive from each complete school) are technically way-bounds.

1 hour ago, Dojutrek said:

Not to mention, I feel like the whole addition of buffs/debuffs on just having Void mode on (Void Duration) is a large case for non-interaction since it's basically fire-and-forget in most cases and ultimately broken in others (Unairu WTF! Calm down, that's too much D polarity for even me to handle).

Yeah as I mentioned before the whole invulnerability during void mods is still a big "?????" 

 

1 hour ago, Dojutrek said:

Void Spiral for instance has four different states alone, it muddies the waters of what's being presented and actually harms the overall work you've put into this.

At the end of the day it was just made to lessen the vazarin feel of all or nothing when trying to hit allies with void dash without going full Zenurik bubble (just grazing the bubble for a full buff) for everything ya know? Some food I've been chewing on for a while may be sufficient to just note that the buffs power diminishes over time, but it's more or less the same regardless of how you slice it.

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2 minutes ago, Synpai said:

Waybounds have been untouched, but mastery passives (adding a passive from each complete school) are technically way-bounds.

Well that's good to hear, I think the Way-Bound system should stay so hearing that it does for your system is kind of relieving in a way.

2 minutes ago, Synpai said:

Yeah as I mentioned before the whole invulnerability during void mods is still a big "?????" 

Why not just have it at that? Invulnerability is already overpowered, besides it's broken when considering you can revive during it. Giving you endless revives for free as long as somebody is in range.

3 minutes ago, Synpai said:

At the end of the day it was just made to lessen the vazarin feel of all or nothing when trying to hit allies with void dash without going full Zenurik bubble (just grazing the bubble for a full buff) for everything ya know? Some food I've been chewing on for a while may be sufficient to just note that the buffs power diminishes over time, but it's more or less the same regardless of how you slice it.

I think it might be best to fold that into another form of interaction, as I stated before Wall Latching isn't present. What about that? Or how about make it a conditional state depending on whether or not void mode is even on (Risk vs Reward)? You could even fold it into the Amp, like an Amp buff that can be directed at players (i.e. Smite Infusion). There are many ways to apply interaction, it's just a matter of what works best for the situation at hand.

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1 minute ago, Dojutrek said:

Well that's good to hear, I think the Way-Bound system should stay so hearing that it does for your system is kind of relieving in a way.

Why not just have it at that? Invulnerability is already overpowered, besides it's broken when considering you can revive during it. Giving you endless revives for free as long as somebody is in range.

I think it might be best to fold that into another form of interaction, as I stated before Wall Latching isn't present. What about that? Or how about make it a conditional state depending on whether or not void mode is even on (Risk vs Reward)? You could even fold it into the Amp, like an Amp buff that can be directed at players (i.e. Smite Infusion). There are many ways to apply interaction, it's just a matter of what works best for the situation at hand.

Yes! if anything it gets better!

I agree, but then you have unfair eidolon mechanics basically just a loop of "broken, so make this broken" as per usual.

Yeah wall latching is a bit awkward especially for the operator. Not to mention more and more content is starting to move out doors and we're so fast paced that outside of the occassional riven challenge or Lua buff it's not really an effective mechanic.

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1 minute ago, Synpai said:

I agree, but then you have unfair eidolon mechanics basically just a loop of "broken, so make this broken" as per usual.

As you already know, I'm in the "Anti-Ramp" camp when it comes to "Broken" things. So, having an ability that's already intrinsically overpowered with hard rules set in place to keep it from growing more would be best. A good example is the Void Invulnerability state, because what if it also cleansed you of all Statuses as well? or gave a hard damage buff? That would just be absurd, so a line in the sand (This far, no further!) would be appropriate.

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1 minute ago, Dojutrek said:

As you already know, I'm in the "Anti-Ramp" camp when it comes to "Broken" things. So, having an ability that's already intrinsically overpowered with hard rules set in place to keep it from growing more would be best. A good example is the Void Invulnerability state, because what if it also cleansed you of all Statuses as well? or gave a hard damage buff? That would just be absurd, so a line in the sand (This far, no further!) would be appropriate.

I wasn't saying "continue cause it's broken," just saying that it's the loop the game is in now, factually

 

1 minute ago, (PS4)Mr_ClapClap said:

 I have a Dream, once day the Focus school can save with the loadout did u use .....its make it greater if u eidolon hunt / play diffrence like Zenurik / Naramon / Uneiru whatever. Every time to set a loadout and change the school really grind my gears....

 

Greetz Clapy

You raise a good point.

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5 minutes ago, Synpai said:

I wasn't saying "continue cause it's broken," just saying that it's the loop the game is in now, factually

I get you, but that's all the more reason to have lines that shouldn't be crossed. However, we don't know the lines DE has in place, which is annoying to say the least.

 

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Mr_ClapClap said:

 I have a Dream, once day the Focus school can save with the loadout did u use .....its make it greater if u eidolon hunt / play diffrence like Zenurik / Naramon / Uneiru whatever. Every time to set a loadout and change the school really grind my gears....

 

Greetz Clapy

Actually, I made a mention of this in another thread in General: 

Sadly, it got buried in the pile of garbage posts about the daily login system and no good discussion was made.

EDIT:

Exactly like 90% of my posts about reworking Vauban...

Edited by Dojutrek
Why did it censor the "Garbage"?
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On 2018-08-25 at 4:50 AM, Dojutrek said:

I get you, but that's all the more reason to have lines that shouldn't be crossed. However, we don't know the lines DE has in place, which is annoying to say the least.

 

Actually, I made a mention of this in another thread in General: 

Sadly, it got buried in the pile of garbage posts about the daily login system and no good discussion was made.

EDIT:

Exactly like 90% of my posts about reworking Vauban...

Yeah it sucks that if it isn't the flavor of the week, it hardly gains any traction. Only reason this post stayed afloat was because of Focus 2.5.

 

At the very least we're starting with appearance configs if I remember a devstream correctly.

Edited by Synpai
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A majority of focus skills could use a change, especially Naramon if you ask me, maybe if they nerfed Saryn, Equinox and Volt damage people might find melee useful way to gain focus. Some people do so now with stealth kill multipliers on Sedna exterminate but I think it's a real minority of more skilled players.

However, void dash for Vazarin for example should stay as it is if you ask me, the healing is still useful in onslaught when you dont have Trinity or blessing is on cooldown in the elite version. Other than that yes, there are health pizzas, and it would be nice in mobile defense and such to make enemies attack have no effect. And the healing one is a bit better for tanky frames, even Inaros with all the other healing going on, unless you use pizzas.

The more DE alter the code though, the more bugs there are gonna be so I'd rather pick the currently least useful abilities like Madurai void dash and make them up to par, and leave the useful enough abilities like Vazarin void dash, alone.

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1 minute ago, BoarWarrior said:

A majority of focus skills could use a change, especially Naramon if you ask me, maybe if they nerfed Saryn, Equinox and Volt damage people might find melee useful way to gain focus. Some people do so now with stealth kill multipliers on Sedna exterminate but I think it's a real minority of more skilled players.

However, void dash for Vazarin for example should stay as it is if you ask me, the healing is still useful in onslaught when you dont have Trinity or blessing is on cooldown in the elite version. Other than that yes, there are health pizzas, and it would be nice in mobile defense and such to make enemies attack have no effect. And the healing one is a bit better for tanky frames, even Inaros with all the other healing going on, unless you use pizzas.

The more DE alter the code though, the more bugs there are gonna be so I'd rather pick the currently least useful abilities like Madurai void dash and make them up to par, and leave the useful enough abilities like Vazarin void dash, alone.

That's how this thread originally started, the changes were extremely minimal. Almost all of the trees were relatively the same with some things swapped around and a few things added, but after a certain amount of time it became clear that the focus 2.5 changes were all we were gonna get for the time being,

I think the methods people use (including stealth farming) are more a fault of the exp economy. I would accept the amount of bugs a system like this could introduce, because at he end of the day the number of viable frames and combinations would increase. Plus most of them are just lesser warframe abilities so it shouldn't be THAT hard to implement

 

Most of the useful abilities are still there, just moved around to avoid arbitrary energy increases.

On 2017-11-10 at 6:53 AM, Synpai said:

Void Spiral, Contact Allies (CA): Allies hit by the initial wind vortex are granted immunity from damage for 5s and healed 75% over 5s.

 

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I feel pretty bad for never giving feedback on this, I remember reading through it months ago but it must have been during one of my spurts where I was doing more lurking than commenting.

 

On 2017-11-10 at 6:53 AM, Synpai said:

Overall:

I mostly agree with all of these issues, but to emphasize my agreement...

On 2017-11-10 at 6:53 AM, Synpai said:

Some abilities punished players for leveling them (why I've separated Void Spiral abilities from void dash to avoid arbitrary cost additions)(If anything Drain over time abilities should start at the higher cost and then go lower).

Of all the issues with Focus 2.1, this is by far the most annoying for me as it is the simplest to change and has such a massive negative impact. As if Focus was not barren enough, now you are actually encouraged to only partially use it. I can understand "trade-offs" in some senses, but this is NOT how you do trade-offs DE.

On 2017-11-10 at 6:53 AM, Synpai said:

The rework includes the following ability categories in an attempt to normalize the trees:
-snip-

I am at a loss for words in this section, this is just beautiful. What you suggest hits that perfect balance (IMO) of making the Operator powerful, but powerful in a way that is completely different and has very little overlap with Warframes. Sometimes I see people want Operators as "mini-Warframes", this on the other hand makes the Operator their own thing. Just, awesome.

 

Madurai, Naramon, Unairu, Vazarin, Zenurik

  • The school specific abilities are what I would expect. I completely understand where you come from when you try to avoid numbers so I am just going to pretend that each ability is mathematically balanced. But with that, these are the kind of specifics that would change the most if this were implemented. DE is more likely to take an overarching idea and make it their own that copy-paste (The overaching idea being tat first beautiful, beautiful section.

Hemocyte(?)

  • I am not sure if I missed something, but this seems to have come out of nowhere. However, this idea really got my gears spinning especially with the role the Helminth (It would really make more sense to call it Helminth given that Helminth is the strain while the Hemocyte is just a specific Infested unit) plays in The Sacrifice. Maybe, rather than design this as its own school, have it be an additional set of modifiers that can be applied to your equipped school? All Warframes are Infested, it does not make much sense to have that be converted to just a Focus school.
  • Excuse me for going completely off the rails here, but what if the Helminth modifiers were all based around strengthening the relationship between Warframe and Operator? Where the Focus schools give you new toys, Helminth enhances the relationship of your toys with your Warframe (Schools give breadth, Helminth gives depth). As a boring example, leveling up Helminth stuff would increase the effectiveness of the Wisps Operators create. Just throwing this out there, having to decide between five Focus schools is hard enough, adding additional vertical progression to go in tandem with Focus could yield more interesting results.

Mastery

  • The big issue I see with most of this stuff is that it is just that, stuff. Outside of "Endless Harvest Stuff" everything is only really acquired once, then done. It is more just a temporary "fix" than a long-term solution to excess Focus.
  • And while the "Endless Harvest Stuff" would theoretically work, they are also kinda boring. Don't get me wrong, these things could work, but I would love to see excess Focus affect, ya know, Focus.
    • The retort to what I just said is that you have to walk a fine line between useful and useless progression. What we don't want is another Login Reward where new/intermediate players feel like they will never get a thing because it is technically out of their reach. In that respect, even though your suggestions are on the boring side, they may be the lesser of the two evils.

 

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5 hours ago, DrBorris said:

feel pretty bad for never giving feedback on this, I remember reading through it months ago but it must have been during one of my spurts where I was doing more lurking than commenting.

Better now, than never ❤️ 😛

5 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Of all the issues with Focus 2.1, this is by far the most annoying for me as it is the simplest to change and has such a massive negative impact. As if Focus was not barren enough, now you are actually encouraged to only partially use it. I can understand "trade-offs" in some senses, but this is NOT how you do trade-offs DE.

I'm not sure they ever learn this.

5 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Hemocyte(?)

Ah, just wanted to do an infested themed school haha. It's just for fun (I should add that note), but I don't have the heart to remove it.

 

What I want from Helminth isn't focus related at all, but Infested. weapons. need. love:

On 2018-08-19 at 5:04 AM, Synpai said:

Infested Weapon Progression and Helminth

  Hide contents

Infested seem to keep getting the short stick in terms of weapon progression.

Screams in Embolist

Helminth could’ve given us the answer to unlock infested mutations (some special abilities or literally some way to power up infested weapons) even if they don't get variants necessarily. 

I.e: Extracting the cyst then feeding it (with certain enemy kills) or combining it with resources to create an enhanced cyst then combining that with an infested weapon at Helminth to give it a Mutation (up to X times): stat bonus and/or random bonus ability/improving its innate ability.

 

I can link the post this is from if you so desire.

 

5 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Excuse me for going completely off the rails here, but what if the Helminth modifiers were all based around strengthening the relationship between Warframe and Operator? Where the Focus schools give you new toys, Helminth enhances the relationship of your toys with your Warframe (Schools give breadth, Helminth gives depth). As a boring example, leveling up Helminth stuff would increase the effectiveness of the Wisps Operators create. Just throwing this out there, having to decide between five Focus schools is hard enough, adding additional vertical progression to go in tandem with Focus could yield more interesting results.

 

5 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Mastery

  • The big issue I see with most of this stuff is that it is just that, stuff. Outside of "Endless Harvest Stuff" everything is only really acquired once, then done. It is more just a temporary "fix" than a long-term solution to excess Focus.
  • And while the "Endless Harvest Stuff" would theoretically work, they are also kinda boring. Don't get me wrong, these things could work, but I would love to see excess Focus affect, ya know, Focus.
    • The retort to what I just said is that you have to walk a fine line between useful and useless progression. What we don't want is another Login Reward where new/intermediate players feel like they will never get a thing because it is technically out of their reach. In that respect, even though your suggestions are on the boring side, they may be the lesser of the two evils.

It was mostly stuff I could think of at the time, I'm sure there's more applicable harvest stuff (maybe even veiled rivens), but the big part of mastery is in the Medallions.  Getting that stuff requires a certain medallion rank and medallions use excess focus to level up and convey stacking buffs as they rank up. Then you have the augments/mutations that could in fact attribute to variation and depth. That line is such an impossible line to tow with where we're at.  It's like a race track, but people are standing at the finish line, waiting for the track to extent before they can keep running. What they need is a side track to run in while they wait, cause then the focus isn't on waiting.

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On 2018-09-04 at 11:43 PM, birdobash said:

Upvoted, hope DE sees this! (If they already had, woopsies! I didnt look through page 2 to 6 :p)

As far as I'm aware, they have not. But even things like this, or keeping the discussion going is bound to make that happen at some point

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On 2018-09-06 at 2:44 PM, Ventura_Highway said:

I am pretty sure forum members not being able to see whether or not a DE employee has reviewed ideas is a very good thing, all in all.

I agree; I think I meant more the general "they know the qualms and general direction we'd like to see focus" 

On 2018-09-06 at 7:54 PM, (PS4)ZeroSection said:

I like the idea for Radiant Forma.  I feel like something like that is going to have quite a high cost though and probably should.

I've been giving thought to more things to add, maybe a radiant Exilus (not like we need more mods since balance is already out of control)

Radiant Veiled Rivens; require multiple daily challenges and are locked to a single weapon (unveiling to match that weapon afterwards, but cost more to reroll)

 

 

Since getting back into hunting meta I've been reminded of significant problems with arcanes, amps, and how non-operator abilities affect operators (to control pacing I know); These will likely be my next additions to the post along with the Mastery outfits (Soon TM)

Edited by Synpai
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So far I'm staying behind the duration effects for Void Spiral as I feel it will make Operators less punishing overall.

I think that there needs to be a way for people to get minor kill skill effects even if allies get kills; otherwise, we see the same problems we have with things like Harrow and Valkyr's Eternal War making the game feel more competitive than cooperative. 

Hopefully able to get that and arcanes by Friday.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Added some goodies to the Mastery section and fixed up Vazarin's passive. The amp, arcane discussion is scheduled for an Eidolon specific post:

  • Radiant Veiled Riven - Locks onto weapon and requires ~3 days of challenges; guarantees weapon for riven unveil.
  • Radiant Exilus Adapter - Unlocks augment specific exilus slot
  • Radiant Artifact - When paired with a relic allows re-rolling of relic rewards (up to 5 rolls, based on stored traces); This should lessen some of the sheer annoyance of relics
  • Janus Key (meme's aside, check it out) - Unlocks special Boss, "The Destroyer,"  (A golden maw on steroids) in the Void; Defeating this weekly boss drops a component that can be paired with a primed weapon to enhance it's unique effect (I.e: longer ghosts on the Ballistica Prime & increased multiplier on the Venka)
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