POE systems unreachable/unrealistic

[Terrornaut]

For the TL;DR, just read the bolded parts.

So I've played WF more or less since the beginning, sometimes with 8-12 month breaks (15 months up until POE).  POE looked really great. I came back to check it out, and moreso just started playing how I did before and had a good time catching up on new things to learn, trying new builds/areas/missions/maps.  There are a lot of parts I wanted to see out of it, and I don't mind a reasonable time leaning towards the long side so long as I get to have fun on the way.  I'm not a completionist - I have forma'd so much gear and spent time just playing with the gear I enjoy that I've been at MR 18 for basically as long as MR 18 was relevant.  (Well, now I'm 20/have enough to get to 20).  Generally in WF I can spend some time, and on occasion if I need, some plat (I like paying people that create/do things that are important to me as a person who creates or takes care of people myself) , but I can't do that here with POE, and what I have to do instead also isn't fun.  I don't do things that aren't fun mostly - I have work for that.  So, POE comes out, I realize there are a lot of cool things going on, and despite what many said, I felt Focus 2.0 had a lot of potential. 

Maybe it does. 

Focus 2.0/POE results are totally unreachable.

It is full of work, and I don't mean fun work.

I work a lot, though I don't have much spare money, but I don't mind buying/grinding for boosters, rushing certain specific things to make use of what time I do have.  WF used to have really horrible paywalls (remember the original 'mod/levelling' systems?) and has generally gotten better about how it handles currency and time played.  I generally play to have fun, and that includes doing silly things, finding extremely effective nonconvential/offmeta builds, helping and talking to new players, and expanding on my core gameplay.  I don't mind doing things that don't necessarily feed into this, like faction/focus grind, but things just got insane with POE.  I don't mind a grind, even if I don't have all the time for it, but in a game like WF where you can potentially pay to cut down on time, POE just throws that out the window and doesn't really let you.  It basically throws every regard for time out the window.  It is extremely hard to get into why POE is so problematic without getting into a 5 page dissertation, but essentially I can boil it down to this:

I feel that DE does not respect our time (and thus us) anymore with this update.

I really feel that they have gone overboard in the amount of user engagement and uptime they want and expect.from us.  I understand that they introduced several new systems they want to last and to benefit both new and old players.  They want us to play. They want us to preferably spend money.  I don't mind doing this usually because overall, I love WF and despite some choices here and there that DE staff makes that I extremely disagree with, I think they're generally a great studio that produce a game that does a ton of things I've wanted to play/see/build in games myself.  That said, I just feel like they've gone off the deep end.

If I want to explore the focus system, well, first there was the quills attachment. That got lifted, good.  Now, if I want focus, I have to spend a chunk of my time not playing the game at all close to how I want to play, but sleepquinox/banshee feeding/ivara prowling to farm focus and take a chunk of time away from other areas of gameplay I would rather be doing, other frames/weapons/missions I would rather be running, etc.  If I want to see this system, I have to play the game in a very specific way and abandon the options and things I have acquired.  But ok, I can grab an affinity booster and if I am not exhausted after a day of work, I can cheese focus grind from 30 min to 1.5 hours (yeah I've seen cap hit in 15 min without booster, and probably should just get over it and do it).  Ok, maybe I can bite the bullet.  Maybe it will be ok in the upcoming update that shuffles around the way we can spend focus points. Maybe there will be some adjustment to focus acquisition. We will still probably have to cheese grind it though.

I know some people said Draco was horrible.  For me, I loved it, because one, warframe is definitely about fun gameplay involving hysterically over the top mass murder, and Draco was that. Moreso though, it just let me level stuff fast so I could forma my gear, then go and take it back to regular gameplay.  Of course not everybody did this, but for me, it allowed me to hop in, get a stretch on, level something up quick, then go actually play the game I wanted to play.  You really didn't have to meta cheese it to get a lot out of it fast like so many people believed, but hey, it lessened the time requirements. I was still playing the game, I will still enjoying it, I was still paying to play.

Ok, this operator system.  Amps could make it interesting.  Definitely need some focus abilities to make it worthwhile, so, have to cheese focus grind, but oh, there's fishing and mining, and bounty grind involved.  Bounties can be fun, PoE action is fun, its different, I love Zeph and finally found good fun with her after a couple years of not using her, but hey look, instead of being able to rep grind, I have to spend a ton of time on either fishing or mining so that I can feed into operator grind (amps arcanes fashion) and zaw acquisition (zaws are kind of a letdown for me though but only because they don't have any of my favorite weapon types, but they'll probably be around eventually so I'm fine with waiting).

Mining is just horrible. The mining gameplay addition may be one of the worst additions to warframe IMO.  (IMO) it is a tedious removal from all of the typical gameplay, it cannot be done passively or grinded for in any meaningful way, it cannot be done actively in any effective way (ie lets use extractors and defend them ala Firefall/excavation mode).  It is required, and it takes time. It absolutely takes time away from fun things I could be doing, or even less fun things I could be doing to get somewhere.  As soon as I heard it was being added, I was already exhausted - I was fairly certain it was going to be involved in how you do it, have plenty of options and resources to have to acquire and then acquire other things to go and do it more and do it effectively (ok that's just gameplay progression), but I hoped DE would implement it in some engaging way that didn't involve taking up a ton of time.  I'm sure there are some people who really enjoy mining and don't mind spending an hour on a speedframe going around drawing circles on rocks.  I don't have the time to spend doing something I really don't want to do that will only partially contribute to my overall gameplay experience.  Maybe there are secrets to really cut this down so you don't have to do it that I just haven't looked into, like loot radar or boosters+correct cutters, or certain spots that are guaranteed specific resource yields.  I don't know.  Maybe I just need to be grinding for plat to trade for mining resources so I can just skip the system altogether. I don't have time for it.

Fishing.  I'm never interested in fishing in games, but hey, this game has spear fishing where you aim, super cool, ok.  So there's a typical progression system there (start out, grind for stuff inside that system, spend your time in resources acquired from that system to get a boost to do it a bit better, eventually get a payout by getting enough resources for something you want/need like a zaw or arcane, repeat.  Day/night cycle sounds cool in theory, but its another time gate.  I don't know, maybe there are places where night time fish spawn during the day but just more rare or something, in case when I get on I can only play while its POE night time (why can't we know from the starmap?).  I haven't bothered to spend much time with this system so I just don't know, there could be a way to handle this better.  Again though, if I want to make use of some of the new mechanics like operator stuff, I have these multiple systems to engage that I cannot avoid or circumvent.

Yeah, I realize this is a grind game. It always has been and always will be.  Its just getting out of hand and I now have to do entirely different, very specific things I never wanted to do in order to get what I want to.  I am willing to spend time and when possible, some money on WF, but not like this.  I do not want to reward a series of greedy/hungry systems that does not respect my time.  Black Desert Online did this to a degree with its pve->pvp system. I loved parts of the game, but for me to PVP I had to spend an incredible amount of time not actually pvping in order to pvp to any degree where I had options or could compete on a basic stat vs stat level regardless of skill.  I feel this is what POE is about: semi-necessary or potentially interesting things locked behind multiple gates (time is always the biggest) with total disregard for me.  This is one of the first times DE has felt like EA or a company that sees me purely as a resource.  Please, chill, I'm going to play your game and spend money, but please, you're being greedy and demanding too much time for the payoff.

So, this is just feedback from someone with around 2000 hours into the game and that's spent plenty of money on it and has brought a bunch of people into WF in ways.  There are plenty of people who have brought more people, spent more money, and vastly more hours than I have, of course, but, this is just me, one of many.  I continue to stick around because I generally believe DE is the young kid you want to see do well in life, support, but not take foolishness from.  If the time investment is too ridiculous (it is, in very artificial ways for the most part), then yeah I will definitely back away.  I would rather not though.

Or you can skip all this and just watch Mogamu and Totalbiscuit videos that will go over plenty of things I feel are important about POE criticisms.  DE needs time to get things straight of course, but I have to wonder how much they actually considered us in the first place, in aiming this thing at us that is crazily demanding.

[Belligerent_Engine]

Yep, the faction rep and focus grinds introduced in PoE are so completely out of proportion to the rewards that I'm giving the entire expansion a pass. Without cheese grinding with stealth modifiers, you're never going to hit the focus cap in normal gameplay, and even with hitting the focus cap, you're still looking at months to finish out even one tree. Sometimes that makes me wonder if the devs have ever bothered trying to play their own game without a dev console up.

[pedidestroyer]

Amen and nicely written...

[pedidestroyer]

1 hour ago, Belligerent_Engine said:

Yep, the faction rep and focus grinds introduced in PoE are so completely out of proportion to the rewards that I'm giving the entire expansion a pass. Without cheese grinding with stealth modifiers, you're never going to hit the focus cap in normal gameplay, and even with hitting the focus cap, you're still looking at months to finish out even one tree. Sometimes that makes me wonder if the devs have ever bothered trying to play their own game without a dev console up.

I think the devs did play the game...but I also think they set the grind and especially the focus grind as high as possible to test the waters. It's easier to adjust such a significant grind down which will be positively accepted, in most part, by the community than increasing the grind hurdles. 

I'm a new player to WF and have "paid" a significant amount of money to 1) move a bit quicker to my WF goals and 2) support DE, as this is an awesome game.

I just hope DE takes the next correct step to reduce the Grind in POE and for Focus 2.0.

A side note, I've not played POE for two main reasons: 1) bounties are not rewarding enough and 2) it takes for ever to get around POE without an Archwing. In POE I need to craft a new Archwing....honestly, that for me was the biggest let down...

 

[MayssonFairbanks]

It is unrealistic and unreasonable as well. Not a big fan of PoE either, I just stopped paying attention to it. However the map itself is very cool and was very fun to explore. Raiding a small remote grineer camp is always a fun thing to do. Imho the core is well designed, but overall you're right, PoE has massive issues such as the ones you discussed, and I would like to add to that.

Indeed, the grind is kind of awful:

-Mining is horrible, because it's braindead and involves a lot of inactivity (running simulator). I did it once or twice in order to get 20 stones to advance Ostron rep lvl 2, but now I never want to do it again. If there are players out there who do actually enjoy it, then more power to them though.

-Fishing is a nice change of pace and it used to be fun, but by the 300th fish, it became a bit boring. There came a time when I realized that PoE fishing was simply a waste of my time and energy, especially considering how much fish I needed to catch in order to accomplish anything. Also please remove the Small fish, especially those stupid 2.0 / 2.3 Kg fish, not only they are more difficult to spot and catch than the bigger ones, but also they give next to nothing in terms of standing.

-Bounties are not my fun in my opinion. 

• Protect the vault is awful, for obvious reasons, I mean it was painful to watch on devstreams and even more painful to experience.
• Escort the stupid Drone is not fun in and of itself, but add grineer sharpshooters to the mix and you get pure hell. Also, why do I have to escort it to some arbitrary place in the middle of nowhere? Also, why not call the Landing Craft, grab the drone and be done with it. 
• Find the caches is braindead and not that fun or engaging either. The original Sabotage / Find the caches missions on the solar map are awesome, those on PoE really pale in comparison.
• Capture / Exterminate are alright, mostly beause they involve actually playing the game.

-More about bounties; the whole experience is not appealing to me. I'm constantly under fire, there's tons of gunshots and explosions on a loop, there's tall grass blocking my view, parkour is useless, the minimap is useless, half the weapons and abilities in the game are useless, Archwing is useless, and so on.

-Archwing, Where is my Grattler? Also why don't Archwing work properly in the plains? Grineer don't seem to have any issues with their ships, maybe instead of wasting our time on Archwing, we should hijack one of their ogmas instead? That would be much more effective.

-More design inconsistencies; aside from Archwing issues, there is a massive elephant in the room: We are a bunch of highly futuristic individuals, able to bend space and time, among other things. We also have access to the most powerful weaponry in the solar system.

In this context, please explain to me WHY do we have to rely on ANCIENT technology such as a handheld metal detector and, of all things, a freaking FISHING SPEAR ??? Dude, we had better fishing techniques 2000 years ago. Not to mention, it would be okay if we were fishing for sport or entertainment, but according to lore, we are fishing in order to help the Cetus survive, aren't we? Then why are we bent on using nothing but a fishing spear.

Anyway, this could be a huge issue from a design and thematic perspective, but actually, it's not that big of a deal. It doesnt matter because at the end of the day, the rewards suck anyways. You can choose to avoid fishing, mining, and PoE entirely and you won't be missing out on much. Indeed most of PoE / Focus rewards do not seem to be worth the time and effort. Regular syndicates for instance are awesome, because they don't require any insane grind, and offer tons of great rewards. Compared to syndicates:

-Grind Ostron and Quills, what do you get? Some archaic looking weapons for your warframe, some different kind of beams and some clothing for your operator. And some arcanes which are a cool idea but these are operator-only, so yeah...... 

-Grind Focus, what do you get? A handful of underwhelming passives, and a bunch of extremely clunky and situational abilities.

Speaking of Focus & Operator, DE needs to fix Void Dash ASAP. Make it more like Bullet jump, aka GIVE IT MOMENTUM. AND don't make the character stop to a complete halt as soon as he hits a slightly angled surface or even a pixel-high bump on the road. This completely kills gameplay and makes me want to jettison the Operator into the Void.

ps: that's a lot of criticism but hey it's a beta, and I love the game. PoE is a great canvas, and doesn't seem to need a lot of changes. some number tweaking, also some buffing here & there.

tldr; my suggestions are to reduce the braindead grind a little bit (make it less heavy and more engaging), and to give more incentive to the player (make rewards more worthwhile).

 

[Rojeen]

2 hours ago, MayssonFairbanks said:

It is unrealistic and unreasonable as well. Not a big fan of PoE either, I just stopped paying attention to it. However the map itself is very cool and was very fun to explore. Raiding a small remote grineer camp is always a fun thing to do. Imho the core is well designed, but overall you're right, PoE has massive issues such as the ones you discussed, and I would like to add to that.

Indeed, the grind is kind of awful:

-Mining is horrible, because it's braindead and involves a lot of inactivity (running simulator). I did it once or twice in order to get 20 stones to advance Ostron rep lvl 2, but now I never want to do it again. If there are players out there who do actually enjoy it, then more power to them though.

-Fishing is a nice change of pace and it used to be fun, but by the 300th fish, it became a bit boring. There came a time when I realized that PoE fishing was simply a waste of my time and energy, especially considering how much fish I needed to catch in order to accomplish anything. Also please remove the Small fish, especially those stupid 2.0 / 2.3 Kg fish, not only they are more difficult to spot and catch than the bigger ones, but also they give next to nothing in terms of standing.

-Bounties are not my fun in my opinion. 

• Protect the vault is awful, for obvious reasons, I mean it was painful to watch on devstreams and even more painful to experience.
• Escort the stupid Drone is not fun in and of itself, but add grineer sharpshooters to the mix and you get pure hell. Also, why do I have to escort it to some arbitrary place in the middle of nowhere? Also, why not call the Landing Craft, grab the drone and be done with it. 
• Find the caches is braindead and not that fun or engaging either. The original Sabotage / Find the caches missions on the solar map are awesome, those on PoE really pale in comparison.
• Capture / Exterminate are alright, mostly beause they involve actually playing the game.

-More about bounties; the whole experience is not appealing to me. I'm constantly under fire, there's tons of gunshots and explosions on a loop, there's tall grass blocking my view, parkour is useless, the minimap is useless, half the weapons and abilities in the game are useless, Archwing is useless, and so on.

-Archwing, Where is my Grattler? Also why don't Archwing work properly in the plains? Grineer don't seem to have any issues with their ships, maybe instead of wasting our time on Archwing, we should hijack one of their ogmas instead? That would be much more effective.

-More design inconsistencies; aside from Archwing issues, there is a massive elephant in the room: We are a bunch of highly futuristic individuals, able to bend space and time, among other things. We also have access to the most powerful weaponry in the solar system.

In this context, please explain to me WHY do we have to rely on ANCIENT technology such as a handheld metal detector and, of all things, a freaking FISHING SPEAR ??? Dude, we had better fishing techniques 2000 years ago. Not to mention, it would be okay if we were fishing for sport or entertainment, but according to lore, we are fishing in order to help the Cetus survive, aren't we? Then why are we bent on using nothing but a fishing spear.

Anyway, this could be a huge issue from a design and thematic perspective, but actually, it's not that big of a deal. It doesnt matter because at the end of the day, the rewards suck anyways. You can choose to avoid fishing, mining, and PoE entirely and you won't be missing out on much. Indeed most of PoE / Focus rewards do not seem to be worth the time and effort. Regular syndicates for instance are awesome, because they don't require any insane grind, and offer tons of great rewards. Compared to syndicates:

-Grind Ostron and Quills, what do you get? Some archaic looking weapons for your warframe, some different kind of beams and some clothing for your operator. And some arcanes which are a cool idea but these are operator-only, so yeah...... 

-Grind Focus, what do you get? A handful of underwhelming passives, and a bunch of extremely clunky and situational abilities.

Speaking of Focus & Operator, DE needs to fix Void Dash ASAP. Make it more like Bullet jump, aka GIVE IT MOMENTUM. AND don't make the character stop to a complete halt as soon as he hits a slightly angled surface or even a pixel-high bump on the road. This completely kills gameplay and makes me want to jettison the Operator into the Void.

ps: that's a lot of criticism but hey it's a beta, and I love the game. PoE is a great canvas, and doesn't seem to need a lot of changes. some number tweaking, also some buffing here & there.

tldr; my suggestions are to reduce the braindead grind a little bit (make it less heavy and more engaging), and to give more incentive to the player (make rewards more worthwhile).

 

Im sorry but most of your pleas will be not be implemented  like all of other player's including mine

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, MayssonFairbanks said:

In this context, please explain to me WHY do we have to rely on ANCIENT technology such as a handheld metal detector and, of all things, a freaking FISHING SPEAR ??? Dude, we had better fishing techniques 2000 years ago. Not to mention, it would be okay if we were fishing for sport or entertainment, but according to lore, we are fishing in order to help the Cetus survive, aren't we? Then why are we bent on using nothing but a fishing spear.

The least minimum i expected from poe mining and fishing is some advancing technology.

Firefall had these thumpers for mining why cant we call down our extractors to mine out ore in bunches?

Also for the fishes dont tell me that we dont have a freaking fishing net or that ordis is unable to create one and attach it to some captured osspreys or something.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Fallen_Echo

[TheKovacs]

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

The least minimum i expected from poe mining and fishing is some advancing technology.

Firefall had these thumpers for mining why cant we call down our extractors to mine out ore in bunches?

Also for the fishes dont tell me that we dont have a freaking fishing net or that ordis is unable to create one and attach it to some captured osspreys or something.

I loved that game. Shame the devs didnt listen to the playerbase. I really hope DE doesnt make the same mistake. Fishing has basically put a block on me being able to effectivly play the best part of PoE. I have been playing every day since it came out last month and I still only have the basic amp. I mean wtf.

[Gravitus123]

Hit the nail on the head.Now i wonder if their changes mentioned on devstream will actually help make this update good or will it just be ignored in favor of the next piece of content

[DonHotkey]

22 часа назад, Terrornaut сказал:

I feel that DE does not respect our time (and thus us) anymore with this update.

Exactly my thoughts.

[DonHotkey]

18 часов назад, MayssonFairbanks сказал:

You can choose to avoid fishing, mining, and PoE entirely and you won't be missing out on much

Actually there's one thing actually worth grinding: Magus Elevate.

[TankHunter678]

10 hours ago, TheKovacs said:

I loved that game. Shame the devs didnt listen to the playerbase. I really hope DE doesnt make the same mistake. Fishing has basically put a block on me being able to effectivly play the best part of PoE. I have been playing every day since it came out last month and I still only have the basic amp. I mean wtf.

It is not that the Red5 devs did not listen to the playerbase, they did do that.

Until it was bought up completely by its investor, a chinese company called The Nine, and was reworked endlessly and driven into the ground then "sold" to a shell company for when they are ready to dispose of it.

The Nine would not even sell the rights back to Mark Kern when he offered to buy it and try to reboot the game. So now he is working on a spiritual successor to Firefall: EM-8ER. Which is funded by using fundraisers after showing their work progress for each milestone. They also stream the work they do to make the game so that the community can see them doing their jobs.

[Fallen_Echo]

3 hours ago, DonHotkey said:

Actually there's one thing actually worth grinding: Magus Elevate.

what that does?

[Gamma745]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

what that does?

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Magus_Elevate

It's quite nice, but the grind for it is just unholy long.

[W3zeer]

Am 12.11.2017 um 09:25 schrieb Terrornaut:

I feel that DE does not respect our time (and thus us) anymore with this update.

Well it certainly looks like they're trying to spread the new content over an extended period to cover the fact how little actual new things we actually got. To be clear: I'm not saying I wanted PoE to be the super-duper huge completly game changing addon. I understand that DE does not have the manpower of the largest studios. I'm just not a fan of having to do the same stuff so often, you don't feel any progress while taking each step. If it had been possible to get everything the update provides (not talking about all focus unlocks, those can take a while longer in my opinion) within a few weeks of casual gameplay, I would have said the update was great. And i'd have looked forward to the next, while doing stuff I have fun doing. But with this extremly repetetive gameplay we have now, where you have to farm with no end, i can't be bothered with going to the plains anymore. I don't care for anything there anymore, it's the most boring part of the game for me. Please let there be an option to help the infested to destroy cetus, because I'd give anything to get Konzu killed for his refusal to give me anything useful for my time.

[Terrornaut]

 

 

3 hours ago, W3zeer said:

Well it certainly looks like they're trying to spread the new content over an extended period to cover the fact how little actual new things we actually got. To be clear: I'm not saying I wanted PoE to be the super-duper huge completly game changing addon. I understand that DE does not have the manpower of the largest studios. [Isn't DE up to 150-250 employees? Of course plenty of these aren't content producing devs, but hopefully everyone in their various roles are still helping towards things being produced.  I'm not saying DE is slow on content overall, they're doing good releasing frames/gear and then bigger updates mixed in, although they are not good/timely with updating/keeping old content relevant.  I would much rather have regular 'revisit old stuff' patches mixed in with everything.] I'm just not a fan of having to do the same stuff so often, you don't feel any progress while taking each step. [I don't mind this necessarily.  Some fun things don't really get old for me when fun, like certain kinds of action and setups in WF.  Its why I have 800+ hours on Ember frames after all, but totally understandable.] If it had been possible to get everything the update provides (not talking about all focus unlocks, those can take a while longer in my opinion) within a few weeks of casual gameplay, I would have said the update was great. And i'd have looked forward to the next, while doing stuff I have fun doing. But with this extremly repetetive gameplay we have now, where you have to farm with no end, i can't be bothered with going to the plains anymore. [For me its the kind of gameplay introduced and realizing that there's still other important stuff to do, which in a way is good that more options have been added to the game, but the demand/time investment required away from core gameplay to reasonably progress is just too steep.  I like the bounties and gameplay of PoE, I do not at all like or want to take time away from the actual game doing mining and fishing.  This is exactly like if we needed to do Archwing (which I don't dislike, but we know how its received by a lot of people) to get critical mods and prime parts.]  I don't care for anything there anymore, it's the most boring part of the game for me. Please let there be an option to help the infested to destroy cetus, because I'd give anything to get Konzu killed for his refusal to give me anything useful for my time. [Just laughed.]

 

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

On 11/12/2017 at 3:25 AM, Terrornaut said:

 

Focus 2.0/POE results are totally unreachable.

I feel that DE does not respect our time (and thus us) anymore with this update.


Mining is just horrible. The mining gameplay addition may be one of the worst additions to warframe IMO.  (IMO) it is a tedious removal from all of the typical gameplay, it cannot be done passively or grinded for in any meaningful way, it cannot be done actively in any effective way (ie lets use extractors and defend them ala Firefall/excavation mode).  It is required, and it takes time. It absolutely takes time away from fun things I could be doing, or even less fun things I could be doing to get somewhere.  As soon as I heard it was being added, I was already exhausted - I was fairly certain it was going to be involved in how you do it, have plenty of options and resources to have to acquire and then acquire other things to go and do it more and do it effectively (ok that's just gameplay progression), but I hoped DE would implement it in some engaging way that didn't involve taking up a ton of time.  I'm sure there are some people who really enjoy mining and don't mind spending an hour on a speedframe going around drawing circles on rocks.  I don't have the time to spend doing something I really don't want to do that will only partially contribute to my overall gameplay experience.  Maybe there are secrets to really cut this down so you don't have to do it that I just haven't looked into, like loot radar or boosters+correct cutters, or certain spots that are guaranteed specific resource yields.  I don't know.  Maybe I just need to be grinding for plat to trade for mining resources so I can just skip the system altogether. I don't have time for it.

Fishing.  I'm never interested in fishing in games, but hey, this game has spear fishing where you aim, super cool, ok. 

Yeah, I realize this is a grind game. It always has been and always will be.  Its just getting out of hand and I now have to do entirely different, very specific things I never wanted to do in order to get what I want to.  I am willing to spend time and when possible, some money on WF, but not like this. 

I have to agree with you on a few points. I have been playing sints a bit after beta (just arond the first easter in fact). I have been sticking with warframe because I find the grind and the ability to "modify" wepons to be fun. I am an old PSO player so the idea of grind does not determ me much... as long as its fun.

Many of my isshues with PoE happen to be that it diverges from there usual business modle. As you said, it seems time is a bit less respected both with PoE in genral and the foucs 2.0 . I feel that the modle is going after smaller transactions within the game (batches of the materials sold by venders) rather then slightly larger ones that feel worth it, but are for cosmetics or items. it is also not just because of the minigaes, as some of the matts can be tradabule (another aspect I dislike as its trying to create a modle around a consumabule we can sell... granted we have seen that befor with keys/corrdinates but that is a bit diffrent).

I have to say I like (or liked befor they updated it recently) fishing. its kinda fun. I dont think it should be requiered for progression of anything without another option BUT it is fun.

I am completly disinterested in Zaws or the Quills becasue of the systme it has produced. there was talk once o geting rid of the mod card systme and moveing to a more modifying guns with parts kinda thing, but the mod card systme was too imbeded into the game to remove. They wanted to make things you could swtich arond and modify to your likeling but now we get zaws. not only do you have to build each part of it (no other way to get them), but you cant brake one down and mix and match diffrent things. Now this would be ok if it where not for the fact that this means you only ever want to build the "best" of each rather then waste material on somehitng only to have to toss it later. the ability to mix and match is limited, partly because all of the parts must be crafted from other materials that also have to be refined, and it takes a long time to do anyhitng. or just buy them. the quills are the same way. Now I know you can "recycal" the things back for standing, but there must be a deminished return on that, plus the time it takes to gather the materials to get another one. its just... not fun.

The grind dose not feel rewarding partly becasue you have to grind to grind to grind, with wait times in between for crafting. usualy its just a grind to be bale to craft and thats not too bad. but this, even for me, is a bit much.

I still support DE. they are also owned by investors now, with like 61% share I think. they have to meet specific margins and often when dealing with this kind of thing, have to impliment thigns they would rather not do to there customers in the name of margins. a LOT of money went into PoE, I would expect that a high amount of profit is excepted. However, because of this it feels like we are now a bit expendable. its kind of like the idea of resteronts renting space rather then actual selling food ( http://blog.wallstreetsurvivor.com/2015/10/08/mcdonalds-beyond-the-burger/ ) . many places like McDonald have been remodeling as of late to be nicer on the inside to try to get people to stick around, buy some more things, mingle and the like. that is how Warframe has been so far- a free space that offers some things you can buy. however McDonald use to use a model that tried to get people in and out as fast as possible. chairs where not terrible comfortable, it wasn't that nice a place, and it was an eat and get out kind of thing. and I fear that is what kind of path DE is being forced to go down. get as much as you can from someone who isn't going to stick around before the leave kind of mentality. it forces a lot of people to loss interest and I dont blame them... PoE is its own ecosystem and it feels tacked on and disconnected in an attempt to get more money :I

I also think that in terms of what PoE is, it does not scale well. If its going to be expanded to other maps, the other maps will also have to be there own thing as well, Or its going to have to be intigrated with PoE to be able to follow the same things (IE fish oil in archwing callers- if we alwas need fish oil, then we alwas need a supply of it or fish. unless a vender is going to sell it, we will need a fishing spot in the next world). this limits not only what they can do, but also makes it so we can probibly predict that the next map will be much of the same as this one, just with  a diffrent color pallet. maby it will be cold. But a city, or a ient ship is almost out of the question becasue of the need for rocks to mine or fish to find.

Once they get some of the diffrent things fixed, I will probibly start playing again, but untill then I have been haveng a lot more fun in Desinty 2. if warframe contuines on this direction, I think its going to see a lot of its old palyers dwindal as it starts to burn thouhgt new ones faster.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Fluff-E-Kitty

[Volinus7]

"Frustration for money" and "strong player retention" are selling points of Warframe, "fun" is used as a bait for only few hours.

Rose tinted players would say "there're many games out there that don't respect your time even more than WF"...

[Terrornaut]

3 hours ago, Fluff-E-Kitty said:

But a city, or a ient ship is almost out of the question becasue of the need for rocks to mine or fish to find.

I agree with plenty of things you said but ultimately I couldn't leave this alone lol.  It would be amazing if the next 'open world' zone was a big &#! city.  It would honestly be the greatest thing WF's map people could do with navigation and theme and exposing style/lore/culture.