Please Revise Your Business Model

[DiabolusUrsus]

With the advent of Update 22 and the introduction of the latest batch of extra grind, it seems like the trend of increasing grind is at least somewhat related to increasing the profitability of micro-transactions. This may not be entirely accurate, but I doubt DE is willing to share anything remotely resembling sales metrics with the public and player impressions are definitely relevant when it comes to the fairness of the business model. (That isn't to say Warframe's business model is unfair.)

Personally, I'll really only spend platinum on 3 things:

1. Cosmetics
2. Inventory space
3. Trading

I am going to take a gamble here and assume that many players would agree that Warframes and Weapons are overpriced for what you get, especially once you are an established player with tons of resources and credits stockpiled such that you can instantly craft most of the reinforcements that come out. Perhaps I'm wrong and there are tons of people who regularly buy weapons and Warframes, but I'd need to see some indication of that first.

In the meantime, I'm faced with the indirect evidence of Warframe acquisition grinds increasing exponentially through multi-layered RNG and ever-increasing resource costs and a steady stream of brand-new resources introduced to temporarily counter player stockpiling. So I got to thinking:

What would make me want to spend money on Warframes and weapons?

• Lower total price.

$15-20 is a little steep for a single character, in my opinion. Sure, you get the slot and potato, but those incentives really only amount to a couple of USD. That's a pretty bad deal when you consider that you're gambling on whether or not you'll actually like the Warframe and that it will inevitably be 1-upped by its Prime variant. Similarly, weapons are constantly displaced on the sliding scale of power creep and complete wild-cards when it comes to handling and mechanics. (e.g., Conceptually, the Cestra interests me. Practically, I find it insufferable.)

I would much rather save my hard-earned money for more important purchases. I would be much more likely to buy a Warframe for something closer to $7-10 USD, provided we also get...

• Better bundled value.

As mentioned above, an inventory slot and pre-installed potato are peanuts in the greater scope of things. I would find purchasing characters and gear much more enticing if they also included things like an unlocked Exilus slot and a slightly boosted affinity gain.

NOTE: I realize that the boosted XP rate strays from the convention of "all differences are cosmetic," but I think XP is fair for consideration because it doesn't affect relative power at all. It's simply more convenient, and it fits in nicely with DE's stated philosophy of "time or platinum." Affinity boosters already exist; it strikes me as reasonable to include a weaker-but-permanent boost as a premium incentive.

• A reason to spend money for crafted Warframes and gear.

Currently, you either buy a Weapon/Warframe or you craft it. Once it's crafted, there's no real reason to spend money on the Weapon/Warframe specifically. If DE offered a premium "upgrade"  option to acquire the above benefits for crafted items, that would give players a reason to still spend money on their favorite gear (again, besides cosmetics and inventory space).

To summarize, a premium Weapon/Warframe purchase would include:

• Weapon/Warframe
• Catalyst/Reactor
• Exilus/Stance (if applicable)
• Small (10-20%) increase to Affinity gain rate (NOTE: SHOULD BE A SPECIAL MULTIPLIER FOR THE ITEM ONLY; NO FOCUS/SHARED AFFINITY BOOST)
• Inventory slot

Additionally, players could pay a moderate amount of platinum to add the permanent affinity boost (and possibly any missing elements listed above depending on how hard that would be to code) to crafted gear.

Why is this a good thing?

1. Lowering the total price slightly makes the initial purchase a lot less daunting in combination with the more significant benefits.
2. Bundling additional items into the reduced price translates to increased savings, and it's been shown that savings increase purchases.
3. It alleviates the need to use heavy grinds to push players towards buying. Even if they grind out the Weapon/Warframe, the affinity boost alone (if appropriately priced) would likely get them to spend money on their favorite gear regardless. This would also apply to Primes.

So, because I'm obviously not a businessperson or entrepreneur, let's talk about the things I am no-doubt failing to realize or consider when it comes to the implications of this sort of system.

Edited November 14, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus

[Galataya]

I went to sell a loki prime i've been holding for years for 550p and the game prevented the sale by slapping a 275 000 credit tax on me. This game used to make me want to invest money in it but I feel it has lost it's way just a bit.

[Somb3rBivalve]

Tbh, they have the metrics for all this stuff. If they thought they weren't getting the revenue they wanted out of the system, they would have changed it already.

Just to share my own story, I play with a group of my friends, and we've all been playing since about 2014 or so. We are all experienced players and we have a quite a few hours on the game. When nidus came out, 2 of my friends didn't feel like grinding thru infested salvage, so they just bought him (one bought the frame and the other bought the bundle). They were both satisfied with what they got since they simply had a lot of plat stockpiled from selling prime parts.

The point is that even players who would "know better" about buying frames from the market were satisfied with their purchase there especially when nidus is such a popular frame.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, Galataya said:

I went to sell a loki prime i've been holding for years for 550p and the game prevented the sale by slapping a 275 000 credit tax on me. This game used to make me want to invest money in it but I feel it has lost it's way just a bit.

I agree that I've lost my interest in spending money due to the changes in the business model (most recent example being the Archwing Launcher with regards to insufficient explanation of charge cost, crafting duration, and availability). Still, trade tax has been there forever.

4 minutes ago, Somb3rBivalve said:

Tbh, they have the metrics for all this stuff. If they thought they weren't getting the revenue they wanted out of the system, they would have changed it already.

Just to share my own story, I play with a group of my friends, and we've all been playing since about 2014 or so. We are all experienced players and we have a quite a few hours on the game. When nidus came out, 2 of my friends didn't feel like grinding thru infested salvage, so they just bought him (one bought the frame and the other bought the bundle). They were both satisfied with what they got since they simply had a lot of plat stockpiled from selling prime parts.

The point is that even players who would "know better" about buying frames from the market were satisfied with their purchase there especially when nidus is such a popular frame.

I know they have metrics. I'm also not saying that there aren't exceptions. I've bought a couple of things I've been especially hyped for, and I've been pleased with them. Even so, I think they'd see more widespread purchases if their non-cosmetic content was a little more accessible and a bit of a better deal.

[Galataya]

33 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I agree that I've lost my interest in spending money due to the changes in the business model (most recent example being the Archwing Launcher with regards to insufficient explanation of charge cost, crafting duration, and availability). Still, trade tax has been there forever.

I know they have metrics. I'm also not saying that there aren't exceptions. I've bought a couple of things I've been especially hyped for, and I've been pleased with them. Even so, I think they'd see more widespread purchases if their non-cosmetic content was a little more accessible and a bit of a better deal.

I've been around forever since before there even was trade lol and I would guess I have between $700 - $1000 invested so far if not more. After all this time I decide to sell 2 of my 4 vaulted loki prime sets at market value and I'm discouraged with a high tax. I usually do straight trades or buy/sell around 150 - 200p when I need to. I'm not a farm for trade/sale kinda person

Edited November 14, 2017 by Galataya

[Mewvg2]

It'd be nice if there was a way to get inventory slots without plat, that's turned off a couple of my friends that tried the game at my suggestion. It really only hurts new players like the old revive system.

[DiabolusUrsus]

43 minutes ago, Galataya said:

I've been around forever since before there even was trade lol and I would guess I have between $700 - $1000 invested so far if not more. After all this time I decide to sell 2 of my 4 vaulted loki prime sets at market value and I'm discouraged with a high tax. I usually do straight trades or buy/sell around 150 - 200p when I need to. I'm not a farm for trade/sale kinda person

I've been here since U7 with the Steam debut. Trade taxes have always been there, and they're frequently high. I guess I'm just looking at it as "thank goodness the tax is credits and not platinum."

37 minutes ago, Mewvg2 said:

It'd be nice if there was a way to get inventory slots without plat, that's turned off a couple of my friends that tried the game at my suggestion. It really only hurts new players like the old revive system.

Agreed, though there technically is a way: log in every year and get additional copies of the Dex weapons. Assuming they keep handing out every released weapon that's an increasing number of slots each year (I know it's not really sufficient, but it's there).

I'm guessing that the system is there partially to help save them database space on their servers.

I think a good first step would be allowing players to craft using weapons from the Foundry instead of needing to claim them first; combining weapons into new ones is the only place I've found the inventory system to be exceptionally restrictive.

[Fallen_Echo]

I have made several suggestions on how can DE make more plat and could ease up the grind levels. Stuff like:

10 minute unstackable boosters, buyable nitain, djinn sentinel, bundle only weapons sold separately, craftable small stat booster fro weapons, etc...

It wouldnt take much to earn more cash while preserving the current f2p aspect.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Fallen_Echo

[AxiumX]

2 hours ago, Galataya said:

I went to sell a loki prime i've been holding for years for 550p and the game prevented the sale by slapping a 275 000 credit tax on me. This game used to make me want to invest money in it but I feel it has lost it's way just a bit.

I'm not sure if you're serious or trolling. Isn't this like, just three rounds in Medium Index?

[DiabolusUrsus]

56 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I have made several suggestions on how can DE make more plat and could ease up the grind levels. Stuff like:

10 minute unstackable boosters, buyable nitain, djinn sentinel, bundle only weapons sold separately, craftable small stat booster fro weapons, etc...

It wouldnt take much to earn more cash while preserving the current f2p aspect.

10 minute boosters don't strike me as particularly useful unless they run only during missions, but then again I'm not inclined to powerfarm.

Buyable Nitain, yes.

What do you mean by "Djinn Sentinel?"

Bundle-only sold separately, yes.

Craftable stat booster? Permanent booster? I would rather see a weapon tier upgrade system based around Forma sacrifice or similar; e.g., MR 0 > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 etc. with the appropriate stat boosts.

[Galataya]

 

1 hour ago, AxiumX said:

I'm not sure if you're serious or trolling. Isn't this like, just three rounds in Medium Index?

 

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I've been here since U7 with the Steam debut. Trade taxes have always been there, and they're frequently high. I guess I'm just looking at it as "thank goodness the tax is credits and not platinum."

Agreed, though there technically is a way: log in every year and get additional copies of the Dex weapons. Assuming they keep handing out every released weapon that's an increasing number of slots each year (I know it's not really sufficient, but it's there).

I'm guessing that the system is there partially to help save them database space on their servers.

I think a good first step would be allowing players to craft using weapons from the Foundry instead of needing to claim them first; combining weapons into new ones is the only place I've found the inventory system to be exceptionally restrictive.

How would I be trolling? Your very response speaks to the overall issue which is trying to discourage trading or trying to incentivise game play by forcing farming. I don't play index and I don't want to play index. The level of tax is what is trolly I don't give a damn how long it's been there because length of time it's been implemented is just a poor excuse. I spent a good 8 months to a year farming those 4 sets I think I've committed enough time they can stop asking me for more. The trade tax exist for only 1 purpose and that is to discourage us from making plat from trading and nothing more. 275 000 credits for wanting to make 550p is total BS and it doesn't even stop regular traders just casual ones who waste time putting up adds in trade chat to get a buyer just to disappoint the guy with the embarrassment of sorry man DE wants 275 000 credits I don't have

[Fallen_Echo]

55 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

10 minute boosters don't strike me as particularly useful unless they run only during missions, but then again I'm not inclined to powerfarm.

Buyable Nitain, yes.

What do you mean by "Djinn Sentinel?"

Bundle-only sold separately, yes.

Craftable stat booster? Permanent booster? I would rather see a weapon tier upgrade system based around Forma sacrifice or similar; e.g., MR 0 > 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 etc. with the appropriate stat boosts.

Those boosters are specifically for powerfarmers.

The djinn sentinel is currently clan exclusive, theres no way to obtain it expect joining a clan, making it buyable would help the players who dont have clans or dont want to join one.

I was thinking of something similar, you could buy or craft (expensive to craft) a single use stat booster what gives permanent bonus to a weapon. Flat status boost, accuracy increase and such but what you suggest would be good too.

[AxiumX]

 

9 minutes ago, Galataya said:

How would I be trolling? Your very response speaks to the overall issue which is trying to discourage trading or trying to incentivise game play by forcing farming. I don't play index and I don't want to play index. The level of tax is what is trolly I don't give a damn how long it's been there because length of time it's been implemented is just a poor excuse. I spent a good 8 months to a year farming those 4 sets I think I've committed enough time they can stop asking me for more. The trade tax exist for only 1 purpose and that is to discourage us from making plat from trading and nothing more. 275 000 credits for wanting to make 550p is total BS and it doesn't even stop regular traders just casual ones who waste time putting up adds in trade chat to get a buyer just to disappoint the guy with the embarrassment of sorry man DE wants 275 000 credits I don't have

It deters newbies from getting everything after buying so much Platinum and goes on a spending spree. Developers want them to experience the game first, and instill the mindset of farming and grinding. Like, have you tried trading a Primed mod? I had to spend 30 minutes in The Index just to get 1m Credits. I didn't feel any single BS at that. It's a tradeoff. "Buy everything you can with Platinum, but please at least experience the game somehow." And, "Wanna get premium currency for free? Play some games first."

[Galataya]

1 hour ago, AxiumX said:

 

It deters newbies from getting everything after buying so much Platinum and goes on a spending spree. Developers want them to experience the game first, and instill the mindset of farming and grinding. Like, have you tried trading a Primed mod? I had to spend 30 minutes in The Index just to get 1m Credits. I didn't feel any single BS at that. It's a tradeoff. "Buy everything you can with Platinum, but please at least experience the game somehow." And, "Wanna get premium currency for free? Play some games first."

At this point I'm just going to call you out for trolling. I'm sure at some point after 5 years of playing I'll get around to playing at least 1 game... on top of all the thousands I've already played... and 8 months to a year getting the 4 sets. They want to discourage new players from spending plat buying things and thus buying plat from... who DE? Anything they want to keep from newbies gets a MR requirement if it was about newbies tax would go down with MR. They want you to play the game first... after playing for the parts you are selling? You don't think the effort you put into paying/grinding that primed mod justified you making a little bit of in game plat?

Edited November 14, 2017 by Galataya

[LuckyCharm]

I personally would like to see older lesser used items get price reductions while keeping newer items at the normal prices. The Illiac set of accessories for example is more costly than all the other cosmetic sets, but it's one of the first ones ever released and it's price is still the same as it was when released, and has never dipped in price. 

[BlackCoMerc]

We are reaching a tipping point. The business model has become so intrusive, it's harming game play. I mean rare fish spawns...but hey, they can be traded...for Plat.

DE needs to find a way to make acquisition of rewards through game play fun again, while offering incentive to spend cash. Because right now, I feel I am PUNISHED for NOT spending...and I won't spend to support that model.

Edited November 14, 2017 by BlackCoMerc

[DiabolusUrsus]

4 hours ago, Galataya said:

At this point I'm just going to call you out for trolling. I'm sure at some point after 5 years of playing I'll get around to playing at least 1 game... on top of all the thousands I've already played... and 8 months to a year getting the 4 sets. They want to discourage new players from spending plat buying things and thus buying plat from... who DE? Anything they want to keep from newbies gets a MR requirement if it was about newbies tax would go down with MR. They want you to play the game first... after playing for the parts you are selling? You don't think the effort you put into paying/grinding that primed mod justified you making a little bit of in game plat?

As was mentioned, high taxes are there to prevent newbies from making hefty purchases until they are more experienced, and that is good for both them AND the game.

The tax is also there to make muling more difficult.

DE is not trying to stop you from making plat through trading; that would actually be counter-productive for them because they WANT the plat to get into the hands of the people who will spend it. That gets it out of circulation and mandates that SOMEONE ends up buying more.

275k credits is hefty, sure, but it's a price that is likely to be fairly insignificant to a player who has two full Loki Prime sets.

Credits are not difficult to acquire, and I think this qualifies as an instance of "you gotta do the work to reap the rewards." You just didn't expect credit farming to be part of the work.

It would be nice if there were a way to check trade tax per part before going to trade, though.

Edited November 14, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus

[-CM-NineFingers]

14 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

t would be nice if there were a way to check trade tax per part before going to trade, though.

Taxes are always the same, always been the same. 4000 per prime warframe part blueprint and ayatan sculptures (with every star in the sculpture adding 2000 to the tax), everything else 2000 credits.

on relics and mods, 2000 (common and lith), 4000 (uncommon and meso), 8000 (rare, riven and neo & axi relics) and 1000000 (primed mods).

[Volinus7]

>Slot costs

>Skinner box microtransactions

DE:"Why not both?"

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, Volinus7 said:

>Slot costs

>Skinner box microtransactions

DE:"Why not both?"

And fastly reaching the point where "how do we monetize this" has replaced "how do we make this enjoyable" as the primary focus for every new mechanic.

That's...going to have a cost, longer term.

[SqualZell]

Honestly, I think the monetization of this game is completely fair

1. It is a free game after all and they need to make money somehow (I know this is not a good argument, but it's attached to the following points)

2. Warframe is AAA quality comparable to Destiny1-2 so let's see how much we can get with $60USD. (quick math estimated at around 1400 Plat.

a) with 400 plat you can get 10 frame slots and 24 weapon slots (which is the most important thing you need at first (that leaves you with 1000)

b) given that the whole game and ALL weapons and frames can be acquired in-game that leaves you with 1000 plat to buy shortcuts (boosters, frames/weps, materials)

3. What you buy in the store is not stronger than what you can get in-game. 

4. Plat can be acquired in game. At worse 2 plat per relic mission. (5 trash prime for 10p rate)

5. The rest is cosmetics and non-essentials

 

2 things I have an issue with though

Tennogen for $$ only, I wish I could use plat for that and the creators can cash in that plat from DE. 

MR restriction exemptions if you buy from the market with plat. MR restrictions should be applicable regardless of how you acquired the item.

[Mewvg2]

7 minutes ago, SqualZell said:

Tennogen for $$ only, I wish I could use plat for that and the creators can cash in that plat from DE

The problem there is Plat doesn't have a set value since people pay different prices for it (bundles, X% off login rewards, etc). It would be nice if someone could find a good solution to that other than strictly using real money (or steam credit), but for now that's the best we're going to get.

[DiabolusUrsus]

31 minutes ago, -CM-TotallyNotLimbo said:

Taxes are always the same, always been the same. 4000 per prime warframe part blueprint and ayatan sculptures (with every star in the sculpture adding 2000 to the tax), everything else 2000 credits.

on relics and mods, 2000 (common and lith), 4000 (uncommon and meso), 8000 (rare, riven and neo & axi relics) and 1000000 (primed mods).

Sure, but how many Tenno do you think have that readily memorized? Is there so much harm in a simple calculator GUI? Also what is the rate on platinum?

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, SqualZell said:

Honestly, I think the monetization of this game is completely fair

1. It is a free game after all and they need to make money somehow (I know this is not a good argument, but it's attached to the following points)

2. Warframe is AAA quality comparable to Destiny1-2 so let's see how much we can get with $60USD. (quick math estimated at around 1400 Plat.

a) with 400 plat you can get 10 frame slots and 24 weapon slots (which is the most important thing you need at first (that leaves you with 1000)

b) given that the whole game and ALL weapons and frames can be acquired in-game that leaves you with 1000 plat to buy shortcuts (boosters, frames/weps, materials)

3. What you buy in the store is not stronger than what you can get in-game. 

4. Plat can be acquired in game. At worse 2 plat per relic mission. (5 trash prime for 10p rate)

5. The rest is cosmetics and non-essentials

 

2 things I have an issue with though

Tennogen for $$ only, I wish I could use plat for that and the creators can cash in that plat from DE. 

MR restriction exemptions if you buy from the market with plat. MR restrictions should be applicable regardless of how you acquired the item.

Never said it was unfair; I just think it could be better and less dependent on heavy grind.

[Mewvg2]

15 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

what is the rate on platinum?

500 credits per plat

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Trade_System#Tax

The wiki is your friend. It is your bible.