Archwing on PoE - so many hurdles...

[Siekier]

So, one of the features of PoE that was hyped up was the ability to use Archwing out in the plains, featuring seamless transition between on-foot and Archwing gameplay, as well as means of transportation and more possibilities in combat.

 

I haven't bothered much with it since PoE came out (as soon as I heard about consumable item required to use it my interest would disappear), but I found out that Operation Plague Star somewhat forced me to use it with its wonderful 1500m distance between objectives.

And man, Archwing in PoE has some problems.

 

First off, being based on a consumable item with build cost relying on PoE items.

Iradite is my problem. There's not really a good way of farming it (run around the plains like a headless chicken and picke up a single Iradite once in a while or spam a single bounty during a certain roll), which can make 50 Iradite feel somewhat... expensive?

Couple that with Eidolon Phylaxis requiring more of it, and it turns out that Plague Star will drain your Iradite faster than you would expect.

 

Next we have something far more annoying. While I can somewhat understand the build costs (not that I necessarily agree with them), I absolutely hate another aspect of PoE archwing.

Archwing getting disabled by just about any enemy.

It doesn't matter if you engage enemies 50m below you or if there is some Lancer you pissed off 400m away. You will get sniped.

There's no warning, no "projectile incoming" message, no beep beep alarm or anything. Boom, you get shot down out of thin air.

Who thought this was a good idea?

Why is every enemy equipped to take out Archwing in a single hit, with no telegraphing the attack? It just feels unfair, almost as if the game slapped me for wanting to have fun.

 

Because yes, those few seconds before you get shot down are fun. Flight model can feels somewhat wonky, but shooting down on enemies makes you feel like you're carpet bombing them.

I can imagine Grineer shouting "enemy AC-130 above!" when you bombard them with Lenz from 100m above.

 

I just don't get it, why are there so many hurdles trying to make Archwing less fun?

Why not make it more enjoyable instead of creating unneeded frustration?

[MirageKnight]

Because [DE] Steve doesn't want "attack helicopters" flying around on PoE that's why.

Which is, arguably, a terrible design decision.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

Because [DE] Steve doesn't want "attack helicopters" flying around on PoE that's why.

Which is, arguably, a terrible design decision.

It hasn't stopped me from using Itzal that way.  Hehe.  Penumbra plus Lenz is such a wonderful combination.  Mwuhahahahaha

[MirageKnight]

Lenz eh....? Need to give that a shot...

[DatDarkOne]

Yep, and use Cosmic Crush to keep yourself with ammo.  :D

[Insizer]

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

It hasn't stopped me from using Itzal that way.  Hehe.  Penumbra plus Lenz is such a wonderful combination.  Mwuhahahahaha

You monster lol

4 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Because [DE] Steve doesn't want "attack helicopters" flying around on PoE that's why.

Which is, arguably, a terrible design decision.

Well, we have Titania for that if you want to go that route i guess.  its still not the same though

Edited November 26, 2017 by Insizer

[FrackingBiscuit]

6 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Because [DE] Steve doesn't want "attack helicopters" flying around on PoE that's why.

Which is, arguably, a terrible design decision.

It really does beg the question:  What do they think is wrong with attack helicopters?

I mentioned this in another thread a while back, but here's what I'd do to make Archwing more accessible for Plains of Eidolon:

1. Don't make Archwings and Warframes share health.

2. Don't make anti-air missiles one-hit KOs.  Make them do extra damage, and if an Archwing is finally shot down the Warframe ejects (maybe even made vulnerable by blowing out their shields) and the Archwing launcher goes on cooldown.

Yes, being airborne gives you a distinct advantage, but the game shouldn't be pushing for only using Archwing as a taxi on the Plains.  It's already a struggle to produce Archwing content people enjoy, so why is it that when we get content that's generally agreed upon to be fun, there's so much stopping the player from enjoying it fully?  Not to mention the versatility it would bring to player loadouts and squad composition - even solo players would find a wealth of new play options just by having two power sets (Warframe and Archwing) to switch between.

Also, off-top but somewhat related:

 

Ultimately I'd also like to see Arch weapons converted to normal weapons - Heavy Gunners can lug Grattlers around on the Plains, why can't I?  The only thing that really needs to be done is to physically scale them down a bit (which, again, they already do for the Heavy Gunner).  The Arch weapons are cool, but again, the content we normally get to use them in is often hard to enjoy because of questionable map design and control schemes.  But attach helicopter Archwing is a friggin blast.

There are interesting things that could be done for balancing around oversized weapons so that they still feel powerful, and it might have some knock-on effects for player loadouts in general (greater choice with Killing Floor-style weapon weights, meaning things like rifle + shotgun loadouts, or one big gun with a sidearm and a knife?), but the end result would be an Archwing that's much better integrated into the game at large based on what players are saying they find enjoyable.

Edited November 26, 2017 by FrackingBiscuit

[Ethan158]

Man, I just want some archwing PvP

[MirageKnight]

2 hours ago, Insizer said:

Well, we have Titania for that if you want to go that route i guess.  its still not the same though

Agreed, I use her for a lot of PoE stuff, but she could use a bit of a speed buff.

11 minutes ago, FrackingBiscuit said:

-snipped to save space-

I pretty much agree with your points.

With regard to your suggestions, I was thinking that seeing as we can call in our Archwing and equip it, we should be able to in-equip it, no? That being said, the Archwing pack should have its own bit of health, that when depleted, renders it inoperative whereupon it detaches and falls to the ground. There, it can be repaired by ourselves for re-use. Using a melee attack while equipped would simply disconnect the Archwing, which would be retrievable of course.

The gear would have no cost. You already built the thing and you have the enabler. You only need to equip the gear for use and you're good to go. Infinite use. Once called down, it's available until you get inside the gateway and then it's recalled. If you go back outside, you can call it down again. I'd also change it so that no one but the player that called it in can pick it up.

On the topic of Archwing weapons...if there's a high enough Oxium content in their construction, logically there shouldn't be any issues involved in using / deploying them in an atmosphere...we can use the things underwater after all and there we're having to deal with pressure and viscosity.

 

[Insizer]

13 hours ago, Ethan158 said:

Man, I just want some archwing PvP

We would need more weapons for that.

[Prany]

I'm lazy and it's late so here is shameless paste from other site. Might be somewhat relevant.

"So I finally got around some fishing which allowed me to build skywing charges. Let me tell you, I was wholly unfair to archwing. It is in fact so, so much worse than what I could ever imagine.

It gets shot down extremely easily without any means to dodge incoming shots aside from running away for half a kilometer at least. Q and E used to be dodgeroll, but apparently it was moved to A and D when sprint or boost is active. Dodgeroll (or more like spinning) is also very slow and disorienting; very much not like it used to be. I'm not even sure if it actually dodges anything anymore. Since A and D are strafing when moving slowly and spinning when going fast (while Q and E seem to do nothing) I'm prevented from dodgerolling while moving at slower pace nor can I strafe or even look sideways - critical ability if I want to estimate battlefield situation.

And that momentum. If I don't press sprint or boost, archwing takes forever to start moving with any acceptable speed. It's almost as bad sharkwing. When I sprint or, god forsake, boost, archwing takes forever to slow down. I boosted to objective and then circled around it at least four times while holding down S before archwing slowed down to managable speed.

When released (and especially after few updates) archwing felt very responsive and suited for of gameplay present in Warframe. As of now it feels mangled as if to accommodate gameplay model found in traditional space simulators which Warframe simply isn't."

Edited November 26, 2017 by Prany

[UltraLYT]

Archwing, even Warframe, should be better than this:

 

 

[-Temp0-]

В 26.11.2017 в 05:15, MirageKnight сказал:

Because [DE] Steve doesn't want "attack helicopters" flying around on PoE that's why.

Which is, arguably, a terrible design decision.

Then remove it's damage ability and possibly defensive ones, leave those that make you loot trash off the floor and go even faster. But THEN you gotta remove consumable part of it's charges. Cause it's just awful. They should've made mounts then like 1000 games before them and fast travel. It's ridiculous how developers actually just literally want you to hate playing their game and afraid to give players something that they deem "too good". It's like hello, tes, witcher, borderlands, horizon zero dawn and millions other games have a way to travel that doesn't feel like **** why can't warframe?

That being said, many warframes are even better than that apache attack helicopter, many have ranged dps abilities and damage reduction on them. Why bother with archwing? I never got it. 

The only thing I ever use aw is Eidolon hunt personally, nothing else. Even then yes iradite is a problem because what a genius decision it was put a resource you can only gather traveling by foot for something you use to go fast as hell skipping that gathering + PoE is like an apocalypse wasteland, so few thing there (as in resources) and each will be far from one another it makes you cry + it's not some witcher 3, it's a dead giant open map, it doesn't feel good just walking and "exploring". I can get like about 20-30 iradite in t4 bounty and that's it just by picking those you pass by.

Edited November 26, 2017 by -Temp0-

[RICK_BO]

Regard archwing disablers: I've notice that the Vruush turrets only fire disablers and when they do they are not detected. Disablers fired by ground troops are detected as incoming projectiles.

[Lisztomaniac]

first, iradite is easy as hell to farm, but im not here to opose your points, because im with you, just wanted to throw that out there (thiefs+loot detector+animal are the way).

second, it all boils down to a S#&$ty design team, they give us a lot of power and then they dont have a @(*()$ clue on how to balance the rest of the game accordingly , they  seem introduce these awesome conceptual systems to the game, but it seems like DE never plans ahead, this is how i picture things at DE go everyt day:

-hey guys i had a dream last night we need a focus system ASAP, and i want it implemented fifteen seconds ago.

-wait but what does a focus system consist on dude?

-i dont know, make like a tree but each branch has a node that gives your character upgrades and buffs or something.

-so like a talent tree?

-NA AH, this will be a whole new thing, my original idea, this will let you have all the nodes you want on any tree.

-so like a talent tree but without any actual choice or planning when picking your talents?

-YOURE FIRED ITS NOT A TALENT TREE, IM ORIGINAL THIS IS A COMPLETE NEW THING THAT CAME OUT OF MY BRILLIANT MIND NO INSPIRATION REQUIRED GTFO! you new guy, implement the focus trees by monday, and come up with a way to make players not pick all the nodes at once.

-ok  an idea, players get a focus points per MR level, unlocking branches as they go, that way they unlock parts of the tree as they go, preventing them from rushing to the last talent.

-what? forgot youre new, what you are suggesting requires actual, designing, just build a huge grindwall, thatll do.

my point is, just like every other system in the game, DE makes the playerbase believe they can have all the game for themselves and all the freedom they want, but when the time comes to impletment a sense of progression and difficulty the only thing DE can think of is " sense of progr.. indwall, diffic.. grindwall, oh you meant a grindwall? oh youre right this needs a grindwall for the $$$", wich in turn forces the comunity to chesse the existing systems, because "coincidentaly" the more dull and cheesieer methods to grind are "allowed" as in DE pretends to frown, but they never realli fix it, because this gives the playerbase a choice you grind the dullness, or pay the coin.

and if youre wondering what this has to do with AW on the plains, this is what i think happened, they promissed and promissed, but when the time came to design and balance awesome all-inclusve combat in the plains, they were like "wait, we have to balance this Sh*t? cant we just remove AW compatibility and save ourselves the trouble?" but since they could not actually remove it or the playerbase would have rioted over all the misleading advertising on PoE trailer they just "removed" it, because you have to keep in mind the original iradite cost for AW launcher was 150 iradite, ONE-FIVE-O for 50 AW, so either, these developers are so beyond clueless that they actually thought this was reasonable (the stupidity implied in this makes this the worst case) or this was an easy exit for them. making AW one-shotable and locking it behind absurd ammounts of grind (absurd for what you get) would give them enough time to fix the lazyness before enough of the playerbase realizes how S#&$ty AW in the plains is.

mark my words, in a few months, oh nvm this is DE after all, in 3 years, when DE comes up with a proper balance on AW combat on the plains they will "suddently realize" that maybe AW charges are counterproductive for players, and as the all giving all forgiving desing team they are, they will remove it, also they will come to the conclusion that maybe missiles that desintegrate your archwing on contact were lore, desing, mechanically and logicwise, a really, really, really retrograde thinking.

a bullet that makes your jetpack disapear, do me a f*ing favor lol, what will it be next patch? plat eating nanobot bactearia native to the orbiter? i dont mind the farm on AW launcher to be honest anymore, but i suport the OP because the fact that i can stand the grind, doesnt make it ok, my problem with the whole AW+PoE ordeal is, that AW disable munition has to be the lasiest, most moronic design choice ever made in a gunplay videogame and it worries me that the people that came up with this excuse of system are running the game i love the most (that is less true the more this game grows sadly).

Edited November 27, 2017 by Lisztomaniac