What happened to the hot topic: Armor Scaling ?

[Maercurial]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb phoenix1992:

Example - War - power creep, bad disposition ratings and impact damage made the mighty heavy lore sword into a glorified fashion frame weapon.

On the other spectrum we have the event Zaws that hit with Slash and Viral...

That's more an issue of certain damage types (mainly I and P) being inferior to others (S), and they're currently working towards balancing them out to be equally useful. This doesn't require changes to enemy scaling tho, rather they could add some sort of anti armor options to I and P as well, or well just something that makes them unique and powerful so people will consider them worth using. 

[phoenix1992]

27 minutes ago, Maercurial said:

That's more an issue of certain damage types (mainly I and P) being inferior to others (S), and they're currently working towards balancing them out to be equally useful. This doesn't require changes to enemy scaling tho, rather they could add some sort of anti armor options to I and P as well, or well just something that makes them unique and powerful so people will consider them worth using. 

Well it is complex issue.

From one side doing flat % damage (like slash and viral) is not something it is actually good way of thinking in the game, it is honestly a way to enter the grind zombie grind mentality (something that a lot of players have suffered from before u18). 

While we can make all damage types scale with %, this would rob the "uniqueness" factors - the only difference between impact and slash would be the visual if they do bring the same end game effect. Now on the other side if enemies scale more like the infested enemies (those that are without armor), you could bring almost anything and it will only test the limits of your gun play. There is also the thing with one shots past a certain point (the damage output of enemies scaling) that is becoming silly and cheap at one point as well.

[Maercurial]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb phoenix1992:

From one side doing flat % damage (like slash and viral) is not something it is actually good way of thinking in the game, it is honestly a way to enter the grind zombie grind mentality (something that a lot of players have suffered from before u18). 

I'm not suggesting a flat % for everything, although you can make abilities vastly different even when both have some % based formula somwhere in their damage calculation. It seems more like they want to add ragdoll/stagger effects tho, which is another way to approach things. A damage type being more focused towards lockdown than direct damage is definitely worth considering and will reduce the gap. Impact could make the enemies stagger, maybe taking increased damage the more hits you land during that stumbling animation. 

The thing is that everything that isn't % based in any way will eventually fall off, so there would have to be a Buff/CC effect to make up for the lack of damage.

vor 30 Minuten schrieb phoenix1992:

Now on the other side if enemies scale more like the infested enemies (those that are without armor), you could bring almost anything and it will only test the limits of your gun play. 

I don't see the difference, armor is nothing else than an increase in enemy health by mitigating damage, something they definitely need considering how powerful we've become. Infested are the most boring enemies for that reason, I'd personally add at least some armor to them. Doesn't matter if you make an enemy take only 20% damage or buff him to 500% health. The later is just less complex which is a bad thing in my opinion, because it takes away reasons to mod weapons differently by using certain damage types more or less effective against armor/flesh or whatever. And a damage system with more depth than simply adding raw damage to grind down bullet sponges is something I explicitly like. 

vor 35 Minuten schrieb phoenix1992:

There is also the thing with one shots past a certain point (the damage output of enemies scaling) that is becoming silly and cheap at one point as well.

That's an entirely different but also complex issue no doubt. I'd say we have enough options to deal with that by evading damage (Invisibility, Movement, CC), and it's okay for squishy caster-type frames to be oneshot killed later on, that doesn't feel cheap to me.

The problem starts when even Frames that have the role of a "Tank" will go down too quickly too fast, but that one's really difficult to balance, if they could tank the damage higher level enemies are dishing out, they'd be 100% invincible to anything below that. Eventually you're getting oneshotted, not a problem in itself, but it feels a bit early in some cases for the pure tanks out there. Maybe real tankyness can only be achieved with methods like Nidus or Wukong, basically using Revives as a way to soak up damage. But then, we're Space Ninjas after all, so the emphasis is clearly on evading damage in some way, not facetanking it. 

Overall, with how powerful we are in 99% of the games content, I just don't see this as such a big deal, being oneshotted eventually is literally the only real threat we're facing*, take that away and it'd be like running a low level mission where almost nothing even begins to threaten you, and that'd be really boring. If that's the alternative I'd rather keep it the way it is. 

*and most people won't even play that high because there sadly isn't much reason to do so in the first place.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

8 hours ago, (Xbox One)ultimategamerjr said:

I thought it was a 75% damage bonus, not armor ignore

 

8 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

nope. armor still goes.

corrosive is +75% to ferite, radiation is +75% to alloy. no ignoring damage. It still gets reduced.

If I may...

All damage types that are effective vs. armor have its damage bonus PLUS has its damage ignore armor based on that increase (pro ejemplo, corrosive will deal 75% extra damage to ferrite armor, with 75% of the total damage also ignoring armor.) Likewise, it’s the opposite for damage types that are weak to armor; the damage gets reduced, then it gets further reduced by the percent of damage it’s reduced by.

confusing, I know.

[(XBOX)ultimategamerjr]

14 hours ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

 

If I may...

All damage types that are effective vs. armor have its damage bonus PLUS has its damage ignore armor based on that increase (pro ejemplo, corrosive will deal 75% extra damage to ferrite armor, with 75% of the total damage also ignoring armor.) Likewise, it’s the opposite for damage types that are weak to armor; the damage gets reduced, then it gets further reduced by the percent of damage it’s reduced by.

confusing, I know.

Not to say that you are wrong, but where did you find this out? I looked through the wiki, but I couldn't find anything that confirms this (or denies it for that matter).

[SenorClipClop]

We received more tools to circumvent the tankiness of high-Armor enemies. Mostly in new weapons that get around it, additional Finisher opportunities, and ways of inflicting extra damage by special means (Hunter Munitions).

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

Armor’s ultimate enemy: Viral + slash.

[TotallyLagging]

Condition Overload, Hunter Munitions and Covert Lethality made high armor a non-issue and the new weapons that we got in the recent patches are better designed.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)ultimategamerjr said:

Not to say that you are wrong, but where did you find this out? I looked through the wiki, but I couldn't find anything that confirms this (or denies it for that matter).

FIrst, I tested it’ll myself, and the math checked out.

Second, the wiki states this in the Damage 2.0 page, under ‘Armor’

[(XBOX)ultimategamerjr]

32 minutes ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

FIrst, I tested it’ll myself, and the math checked out.

Second, the wiki states this in the Damage 2.0 page, under ‘Armor’

I looked under the Ferrite Armor section  and it says that armor reduces damage regardless of type.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)ultimategamerjr said:

I looked under the Ferrite Armor section  and it says that armor reduces damage regardless of type.

Damage 2.0 has its own page. In that page, is a section called ‘Damage calculation’ which has the info I’ve been talking about under ‘armor’