Useless Warframe Passives are a Wasted Design Opportunity

[Anthraxicus]

One of the main problems with passives is their inconsistency. Let's make some distinctions here.

There is:

Nidus passive: Unique and the best passive there is.

Useful passives: Harrow's overshields, Nekros health gain, Chroma, Excalibur, Mesa , Octavia, Ash etc.

These are passives that improve, some more than others, the gameplay of certain frames.

 

Useless passives: Hydroid, Equinox, Frost, Ember , Wukong etc.
This kind of passive doesn't change anything. If they didn't exist at all, or stopped working because of some bug, no one would even notice.

 

Detrimental passives: Nyx, Rhino, Titania etc.

Such passives would improve the frame if they were simply removed right now.

[ACULonSeer]

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 It's not a bad idea. But we sort of already have Zephyr. (edit: Turbulence, I mean)

 The only real problem I have with this idea is that it's a passive that only affects one ability. The question is, then, why have it as a passive and not just an aspect of the ability it was meant to affect?

Well I can't imagine using rhino WITHOUT having ironskin active, but you do have a point. 

How about, Rhino taking damage increases the armor of nearby allies and charges their shields? It would encourage rhino to tank shots for his team in order to keep them alive, and the idea of choosing to take damage like this encourages skilled play.

[ACULonSeer]

2 hours ago, Anthraxicus said:

Not exactly. Mag is a one-trick pony. She has one useful ability (and other somewhat useful as a panic button). Nidus is....one of a kind, unique. He is the single best designed frame and if one thing should be standard is that whoever designed him be in charge of reworking all the other frames.

You can't exactly play him incorrectly. You just play him and he gest progressively better. The stacks doesn't just affect how Nidus itself becomes stronger, but it also makes his abilties stronger. His maggots and virulence also directly benefit from the number of stacks.

I don't play Rhino too much to think of something that would both make him better and reinforce his theme.

I believe my earlier comparison of Nidus's passive being an ability combo-counter is accurate. In order to use Nidus at max effectiveness you need to be spamming abilities CONSTANTLY to keep stacks up. This leaves little room for gunplay, or even melee. This isn't a perfect strategy, however, as it means Nidus is not useful if his abilities won't work on an enemy or he is out of range. Using guns would be wasting stacks, so you gotta keep chasing enemies. 

My point here is that Nidus isn't the "perfect warframe" and his passive isn't "the best in the game" his passive is extremely good when, obviously, used with his abilities. When he can't use abilities to kill things, he has no other utility. 

No other frame needs a passive "like nidus's" because it wouldn't fit their playstyles. Not all frames are built around spamming abilities constantly, and honestly not all frames even NEED improved passives. 

Rhino and Nyx are two frames I currently have that need better passives. Idk what to say about Harrow and Equinox 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

12 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

Well I can't imagine using rhino WITHOUT having ironskin active, but you do have a point. 

How about, Rhino taking damage increases the armor of nearby allies and charges their shields? It would encourage rhino to tank shots for his team in order to keep them alive, and the idea of choosing to take damage like this encourages skilled play.

 Personally I find ally-support abilities in the current game build completely useless. In current version of Warframe we don't encounter enemies that require team play, so I prefer solo builds. Also, hitscan weapons and weak low-level enemies discourage any skilled play in general. It's a pve power fantasy. That's actually another reason why I want more complicated and interesting passives for this game - passives are an opportunity to build more engaging and sophisticated gameplay mechanics that would be satisfying on their own, without having to rely on difficulty which is absent from the game. It's up to you to judge if giving shields and taking damage for other people would be satisfying - just play with it in your mind (that sounds wrong).

 

[Anthraxicus]

2 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

I believe my earlier comparison of Nidus's passive being an ability combo-counter is accurate. In order to use Nidus at max effectiveness you need to be spamming abilities CONSTANTLY to keep stacks up. This leaves little room for gunplay, or even melee. This isn't a perfect strategy, however, as it means Nidus is not useful if his abilities won't work on an enemy or he is out of range. Using guns would be wasting stacks, so you gotta keep chasing enemies. 

My point here is that Nidus isn't the "perfect warframe" and his passive isn't "the best in the game" his passive is extremely good when, obviously, used with his abilities. When he can't use abilities to kill things, he has no other utility. 

No other frame needs a passive "like nidus's" because it wouldn't fit their playstyles. Not all frames are built around spamming abilities constantly, and honestly not all frames even NEED improved passives. 

Rhino and Nyx are two frames I currently have that need better passives. Idk what to say about Harrow and Equinox 

Harrow has +200% overshields, and he gets overshield by spamming his 1st. 

And Nidus has room for gunplay. You can't keep spamming your 1st constantly because it costs a good chunk of energy (40) compared to other frames and Nidus doesn't have a big enough energy pool in the first place. So, you need to target several enemies in other to be able to spam his 1st and some enemies don't die easily to his abilities, when your gun comes into play. In scenarios with energy reduction, you can't even cast your 1st if you don't have a maxed Primed Flow equipped.
I'd also make a change to his 2nd, making it increase stacks if you kill enemies caught by the larva using any means. Plus, once you reach max stacks, you can use your gun exclusively if you want to.

And if his passive isn't the best, which one is?

[ACULonSeer]

8 minutes ago, Anthraxicus said:

Harrow has +200% overshields, and he gets overshield by spamming his 1st. 

And Nidus has room for gunplay. You can't keep spamming your 1st constantly because it costs a good chunk of energy (40) compared to other frames and Nidus doesn't have a big enough energy pool in the first place. So, you need to target several enemies in other to be able to spam his 1st and some enemies don't die easily to his abilities, when your gun comes into play. In scenarios with energy reduction, you can't even cast your 1st if you don't have a maxed Primed Flow equipped.
I'd also make a change to his 2nd, making it increase stacks if you kill enemies caught by the larva using any means. Plus, once you reach max stacks, you can use your gun exclusively if you want to.

And if his passive isn't the best, which one is?

There ISN'T a best passive and there ISN'T a best warframe! If there was it would defeat the purpose of choosing one you like. IDEALLY all frames should be equal or close to it.

Nidus's passive is the best for NIDUS. if you copy/paste it on another frame it would probably go terribly.  

Also Nidus is effectively Unkillable, is that really the standard EVERY frame should strive for? The game is easy enough as is

[Anthraxicus]

2 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

There ISN'T a best passive and there ISN'T a best warframe! If there was it would defeat the purpose of choosing one you like. IDEALLY all frames should be equal or close to it.

Nidus's passive is the best for NIDUS. if you copy/paste it on another frame it would probably go terribly.  

Also Nidus is effectively Unkillable, is that really the standard EVERY frame should strive for? The game is easy enough as is

Wukong is unkillable. Even more so than Nidus. Actually, the latter can be killed if he doesn't have enough stacks. 
And if there is worst passive coffnyxcoff, there can also be a best passive. Nidus passive could very well work for others with some adjustments and these frames would have equally good or better passives.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

42 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

I believe my earlier comparison of Nidus's passive being an ability combo-counter is accurate. In order to use Nidus at max effectiveness you need to be spamming abilities CONSTANTLY to keep stacks up. This leaves little room for gunplay, or even melee.

27 minutes ago, Anthraxicus said:

You can't keep spamming your 1st constantly because it costs a good chunk of energy (40) compared to other frames and Nidus doesn't have a big enough energy pool in the first place.

Nidus Build.

You can spam your abilities, but that's a good thing. Nidus is a rare example of a warframe with useful damaging abilities that synergize for more scaling. This should be celebrated, not shunned. There's nothing bad about being able to use a warframe's abilities to kill enemies as an alternative to gunplay if that's what you like. But that doesn't mean you can't use weapons. @ACULonSeer you'll have to try Nidus for yourself.

42 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

My point here is that Nidus isn't the "perfect warframe" and his passive isn't "the best in the game" his passive is extremely good when, obviously, used with his abilities. When he can't use abilities to kill things, he has no other utility. 

Nothing is perfect. But Nidus is strikingly better designed than the rest of the warframes in the game, precisely because he uses all his abilities equally, including the passive. That's the entire point of this conversation. Passives are another type of abilities that could greatly enhance the complexity and interactivity of the gameplay expierience. Nidus is just an example of how it could be done. Not a perfect example, but the only one we have in the game so far.

 Passives don't have to be about stacks, but they have to be something more than just a useless one-note bonus.

Read examples from the original post.

Edited January 2, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Anthraxicus]

3 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Nidus Build.

You can spam your abilities, but that's a good thing. Nidus is a rare example of a warframe with useful damaging abilities that synergize for more scaling. This should be celebrated, not shunned. There's nothing bad about being able to use a warframe's abilities to kill enemies as an alternative to gunplay if that's what you like. But that doesn't mean you can't use weapons. @ACULonSeer you'll have to try Nidus for yourself.

 

I know you can but, as implied in my post, you need good amount of enemies around, without which you can't recover energy, especially with a build like that.

 

 

And as you said, the thing I like about Nidus, and why he is the best designed frame out there, is because all of his abilties as useful and interact with each other, including and especially his passive. If you pick a frame like Titania, her abilities don't have any synergy at all and some of them are actually annoying to use. Mag has synergy between two abilities and it not even that useful to begin with.  Oberon has some synergy (2+3 and 2+4) but none with his passive. So, when I look at Nidus, it is no surprise I think he should be a standard on how to make the abilities interact with each other.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, Anthraxicus said:

I know you can but, as implied in my post, you need good amount of enemies around, without which you can't recover energy, especially with a build like that.

I'll derail my own thread if I continue on about nidus' energy economy, but I have to mention that the less efficiency you have on him, the more energy you gain on hit... and I'll say no more about that (hopefully).

[(XBOX)dude1286]

Maybe a good Rhino passive would be that when he uses an ability, enemies within a certain radius turn their focus on him. Would work well with Iron Skin's initial phase and Charge and Roar can be used to help teammates and the defense target.

 

Not every passive needs to be as strong as Nidus's, but it would be nice if they were at least useful to most build options for the frame.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

10 minutes ago, (Xbox One)dude1286 said:

Maybe a good Rhino passive would be that when he uses an ability, enemies within a certain radius turn their focus on him. Would work well with Iron Skin's initial phase and Charge and Roar can be used to help teammates and the defense target.

Not every passive needs to be as strong as Nidus's, but it would be nice if they were at least useful to most build options for the frame.

Yeah, this could work as well. Ofc, I'm biased towards my own idea. I just think throwing enemies up into the air with Rhino Charge would be really cool.

Edit: I just think passives should be like a proper ability. I see a good passive as a functional base for the entire kit.

Edited January 2, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[ACULonSeer]

5 hours ago, Anthraxicus said:

Wukong is unkillable. Even more so than Nidus. Actually, the latter can be killed if he doesn't have enough stacks. 
And if there is worst passive coffnyxcoff, there can also be a best passive. Nidus passive could very well work for others with some adjustments and these frames would have equally good or better passives.

I still don't think frames should share mechanics like stacking. Even the other synergy-focused frame, saryn, has her own passive that fits her kit and theme well (though I don't know how effective it is)

[Mewvg2]

16 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

I still don't think frames should share mechanics like stacking. Even the other synergy-focused frame, saryn, has her own passive that fits her kit and theme well (though I don't know how effective it is)

Saryn would be better if they actually fixed her bugs, but her passive is pretty strong. Condition Overload and soon-to-be Status 2.0 benefit from it.

[ACULonSeer]

10 minutes ago, Mewvg2 said:

Saryn would be better if they actually fixed her bugs, but her passive is pretty strong. Condition Overload and soon-to-be Status 2.0 benefit from it.

What bugs? 

[AreeSoothsayer]

Rhino: Gains 25 armor for 15 seconds upon enemy kill, Max stacks 5

Ember: Fire damage absorbed by 30%, converted into energy (Hit by 100 fire damage, take 70 damage, gain 30 energy)

Nyx: Enemies affected by Nyx's abilites reduces damage she takes by 1% for 10 seconds (Cast and 3 enemies hit, 3%. Cast and 28 enemies hit 28%)

Wukong: Regenerates warframes caught in his mist form.

 

Just a few ideas that came to me while reading the thread.

[Mewvg2]

26 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

What bugs? 

It's getting a bit off-topic, so I'll pm ya something 'bout it instead of clogging this thread up with Saryn discussion.

[Anthraxicus]

44 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

I still don't think frames should share mechanics like stacking. Even the other synergy-focused frame, saryn, has her own passive that fits her kit and theme well (though I don't know how effective it is)

I never said anything about stacks. I mentioned synergy between the powers. Imagine for example that Saryn not only was immune to toxin but getting affected by toxin from enemies would actually boost her own powers. So, staying in one of those Mutalyst Osprey's gas clouds would be beneficial for her. Or imagine that Mag's passive allowed her to boost their own shields or armor by stripping the enemy of shields/armor.....or both, in the case of the corrupted faction. Or think of Volt and his passive also being affected by allied players under the effects of speed and the discharge could be released by the abiltiy of your choosing.
Saryn's current passive is kinda useless imo. Like I mentioned in a previous post, because you are constantly proc'ing status with her, that extra duration, which can easily be obtained through mods but no one does for obvious reasons, doesn't matter one bit. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 hours ago, ACULonSeer said:

I still don't think frames should share mechanics like stacking. 

Ahem, you're ignoring me? It doesn't have to be stacking. Passives just need to be as complex as other abilities.That's all.

Edited January 3, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[DiabolusUrsus]

Guys, gals...  Especially @Stonehenge. DE has already set a precedent for passives playing an ACTIVE role in a Warframe's playstyle.

Examples: Inaros, Nidus, Limbo

These 'frames are widely hailed as extremely fun and/or useful to play, but if you took their passives away they would completely fall apart.

I would VERY much like to see all Warframe passives be just as useful and integral to how a Warframe approaches the enemy. I don't think you could really get much closer to reinforcing a theme with a different method.

The Nekros passive is a good start, but needs refinement.

Recommend:

Fewer but bigger stacks (less cumbersome to balance and manage)

Lower total armor at max stacks (666 is higher than most high-ish armor frames with max Steel Fiber)

Something to prevent a player from hoarding stacks by not using Shadows (combined with Health Conversion, good gods).

[AperoBeltaTwo]

12 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Guys, gals...  Especially @Stonehenge. DE has already set a precedent for passives playing an ACTIVE role in a Warframe's playstyle.

Examples: Inaros, Nidus, Limbo

These 'frames are widely hailed as extremely fun and/or useful to play, but if you took their passives away they would completely fall apart.

I would VERY much like to see all Warframe passives be just as useful and integral to how a Warframe approaches the enemy. I don't think you could really get much closer to reinforcing a theme with a different method.

The Nekros passive is a good start, but needs refinement.

Recommend:

Fewer but bigger stacks (less cumbersome to balance and manage)

Lower total armor at max stacks (666 is higher than most high-ish armor frames with max Steel Fiber)

Something to prevent a player from hoarding stacks by not using Shadows (combined with Health Conversion, good gods).

Stacks could give any bonus. Initially I was choosing between armor and max health, But stacks could give a damage buff for Nekros and the Shadows, or something like that. Nekros is very strong already, so it doesn't really matter what bonus stats 'captured soul' stacks provide. The main idea is to heal the shadows without having to stop and recast it every 15 seconds. DE made desecrate togglable and created another mandatory ability spam in the same update.

Edited January 3, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[DiabolusUrsus]

8 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Stacks could give any bonus. Initially I was choosing between armor and max health, But stacks could give a damage buff for Nekros and the Shadows, or something like that. Nekros is very strong already, so it doesn't really matter what bonus stats 'captured soul' stacks provide. The main idea is to heal the shadows without having to stop and recast it every 15 seconds. DE made desecrate togglable and created another mandatory ability spam in the same update.

Agreed, but (as a Nekros main) unless I have seriously low duration and/or strength SotD really only requires regular recasts to ensure they keep up when using Shield of Shadows.

Are you saying that EACH stack heals only 1 Shadow? Because that upkeep would not be fun IMO; it turns kills into a frantic chore, especially if you have teammates thinning the ranks significantly.

I would rather see 7 stacks with each stack healing all Shadows.

It's fine to have Armor for stacks, but the proposed total is just too high IMO. Perhaps give 240 at full stacks (+175) but make it BASE armor instead to allow Steel Fiber viability?

And again, what's to stop me from simply gaining stacks to be tanky and ignoring SotD entirely?

I think it would be better to scrap the Shadows recast mechanic entirely and just have the Shadows teleport to Nekros to stay within range. Make it a toggle and auto-replace fallen Shadows from the cue.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

35 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Agreed, but (as a Nekros main) unless I have seriously low duration and/or strength SotD really only requires regular recasts to ensure they keep up when using Shield of Shadows.

Are you saying that EACH stack heals only 1 Shadow? Because that upkeep would not be fun IMO; it turns kills into a frantic chore, especially if you have teammates thinning the ranks significantly.

I would rather see 7 stacks with each stack healing all Shadows.

It's fine to have Armor for stacks, but the proposed total is just too high IMO. Perhaps give 240 at full stacks (+175) but make it BASE armor instead to allow Steel Fiber viability?

And again, what's to stop me from simply gaining stacks to be tanky and ignoring SotD entirely?

 Recasting SofD is tremendously annoying to me personally. I don't know about other people, but I think the animation of SofD is horrible for an ability that is supposed to be recasted. It's long, it locks you in one place, it stops you from freely using my weapons. And the mechanic of shadows losing health constantly is unnerving to me. It hits my OCD like a truck. Especially when I used to play with the Shield of Shadows. That's whwat motivated the choice of this particular passive. Yeah, I'm a shallow emotional human being whom treasures quality of life and freedom of actions above most of other things. And since the rework, Nekros always felt "he could be great if not for this one issue" (the issue being the one described above). 

no, each stack heals all shadows but it triggers when any one of the shadows has its life below 50%.

The reason for 666 armor is because I had this 30 armor = 30% health regen thing stuck in my head. Then I thought, hey wouldn't it be cool if nekros had 666 bonus armor with 21 stacks? (nekros has 666 shields with maxed redirection... basically any values could be assigned. Also, I considered making stacks grant base armor, but thought that would be too op.

Gaining stacks to be tanky is an option. Options are good. Why stop you from having an option to play however you want?

35 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I think it would be better to scrap the Shadows recast mechanic entirely and just have the Shadows teleport to Nekros to stay within range. Make it a toggle and auto-replace fallen Shadows from the cue.

It's a thread about passives, so I didn't try to rework the entire Nekros. But honestly if I had a chance to rework him completely (and however I want), I'd change the Shadows significantly:

1. Starting first by making them transparent in the same way as Mirage's clones. (this would require a unified model for all shadows, since it can't be done with standart enemy models; I'm not sure if this part could be done)
2. Allowing Nekros to shoot through the shadows
3. Allowing "summon and forget", no depleting health
4. Adding a counter to the Shadows of the Dead icon in the HUD that would indicate the number of shadows present.
5. Allowing individual summoning of Shadows if less than the maximum number is present (that way shadows would naturally rotate as they die)
6. Allowing casting on the move with a different animation, to not disturb the flow of combat
7. Teleporting the shadows towards nekros immedeately (and individually) as soon as they leave his direct line of sight
8. Making Soul Punch dispell targeted shadows individually 

Edited January 3, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[DiabolusUrsus]

@AperoBeltaTwo

I agree that recasting is cumbersome, and I would much like to see it scrapped entirely. Still, I'm not looking to derail your thread.

I'm not suggesting that players shouldn't be able to use stacks for tanking, and options are definitely good to have. At the same time, I don't think it would be fair to make stacks a mission-permanent buff if Shadows aren't in play. All I'm saying is that there should be something consuming stacks periodically; as long as Nekros is participating it shouldn't be a problem.

I also think a smaller total of base armor makes more sense than a larger total of armor because it lets players mod to exploit it (Steel Fiber, Gladiator Aegis) but it is otherwise a nice-but-somewhat-minor bonus. Nekros already has crazy tank potential from Health Conversion/Shield of Shadows; I don't think he should get tons of passive armor without investing a mod slot in it.

(I think armor is the best stack benefit though)

Edited January 3, 2018 by DiabolusUrsus

[FreeWilliam]

On 1/2/2018 at 6:41 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Knockdown resistance is ok, but a passive could be a proper 5th ability and making it just a knockdown resistance is a waste of space. Especially when there are modding alternatives in the game that are just as good.

Knockdown resistance is AMAZING.  Atlas has IMHO the best passive in the game.  I'd be terribly saddened if that changed.

A lot of us play the game differently, a lot of the passives some people think are 'useless' only seem that way because they aren't exploring the game the same way.