Please don't copy PoE's system design for the new landscapes

[AdunSaveMe]

The problem with PoE is that it was almost standalone. It was self-contained. Almost everything you did in PoE was to get more things to use in PoE except for bounty rewards and the operator. While it was an impressive map with a lot of cool ideas, the fact that it distances itself from the rest of the game is not something that needs to be done again. It's great to have another area, but if you just do the same thing as PoE it's not going to work out well. That means;
-Having a bunch of resources specific to that area, and usable nowhere else
-Making all the systems such as fishing and mining work towards goals that only function in the plains
-A focus on operators more than anything else, which is still mainly for fighting eidolons

So will the new area have a bunch of its own new resources, specific to that area and usable nowhere else? Will it have its own archwing launcher recipe? Its own mining tools? Will we one day have six or seven different archwing launcher and resource gathering recipes for each area? What will it add to the game AS A WHOLE, rather than as a standalone chunk of content?

If you do the same thing as you did for PoE, and you keep doing that every time, landscapes will become little more than a chore and a spectacle. There won't be any real reason to do them except the sake of collection, because they'll be so disconnected from the main game. This is a problem that needs to be sorted out now, not later after everything has already been added.

Some ideas that would help tie it in to the star chart:

-Create universal resources for recipes, not unique ones. So, an archwing launcher requires oil. This can be fish oil from the Plains, or space whale oil from the moon, or sandskate oil from Mars. The basic type of resource is the same. So you keep the areas unique but less self-contained, and won't need a new recipe if you decide to have archwing on multiple landscapes.

-Incorporate normal resources. Rubedo, ferrite, plastids etc. should all be natural occurrences.

-Add rep trading for other landscapes. So, say Konzu has a rotating list of things the Ostrons need. You happen to have something from Venus, like a rare mineral or fish. You trade it to him, you get Ostron standing. Someone from Mars has a list of what they need as well, and you happen to have one of them, say, norgs. You get Mars standing. And so on. This makes them more connected overall.

I think these would help greatly in keeping them from being too closed off. The trick is not to FORCE players to do these things, but to give them the option if they WANT to. So, for example, making a new landscape require a fully decked out operator amp would be lame, but making that new landscape a way to get that decked out amp is not lame.

Repeating PoE's design is not a good long term plan. I'm hoping that won't be the case.

Edited January 13, 2018 by AdunSaveMe

[Koldraxon-732]

Full comment is in the spoilers as it's huge, but in short I agree with most of the above, with expansion of such in said spoilers:

Spoiler

 

After reading this fully I agree with the notion for plains/landscape specific resources becoming general resources (like oil, fuel (grokdrul), etc...) to allow them to be interchanged.

I doubt the Archwing Launcher would be exclusive to the Plains. That would be like stopping people from using Flying Mounts between Zones in World of Warcraft - which is a close analogy since each landscape would be seen as a vast, explorable zone. Nor do I expect fishing on Venus (I'm not sure how that would work, given the frigid weather over there thanks to terraforming). I also agree with the idea for resources commonly encountered on the planet or on the enemies being part of crate loot tables or other spots within the landscape.

Given that it's Venus and Venus hasn't got any previous record of Sentients - like Eidolon (or rather, its remains on Earth) - on it, I doubt Operators will have a frontal focus this time unless there's some Orokin labyrinth protecting the terraformers full of Golden Maws or something like that.

And the reputation conversion would help add variety to activities; hopping from planet to planet doing landscape dailies and earning rare resources with which to trade to other landscapes, or Tenno for other resources. This could be another economy Tenno could control, for profit or otherwise.

Only negative I have with Tenno progression is that you can only progress by killing Vomvalysts and Eidolons, and most of the amps and arcanes are weak besides ones people prefer and/or a full t1 or a meta-build amp. And the need to fish rare fish.

 

Either way I doubt DE would exactly replicate Cetus, Eidolon, and Plains on Venus since it wouldn't work as it's all Corpus and I know of no Sentients that have warred and/or fallen on Venus either. So hopefully with Venus Landscape there would be either some or no Tenno interaction.

[AdunSaveMe]

47 minutes ago, Koldraxon-732 said:

Either way I doubt DE would exactly replicate Cetus, Eidolon, and Plains on Venus since it wouldn't work as it's all Corpus and I know of no Sentients that have warred and/or fallen on Venus either. So hopefully with Venus Landscape there would be either some or no Tenno interaction.

There doesn't have to be sentients for them to use the same kind of systems. It could end up working just like PoE, but with a big robot instead of a sentient, a bunch of new resources and some new guys to get standing with. That's the issue.

[TheVeiledScion]

I agree fully. Other simple ways to integrate without forcing players into the grind is to have other alerts (Void, Syndicates, Simaris, etc.) also happen on the Plains, or having the Ostrons request stuff from the rest of the system.

Also, as they make more landscapes (though it seems like they are already tired of doing them), they can try to link them together through alerts or events that cross both.

[Koldraxon-732]

14 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

 

I don't see how the Corpus - let alone Orokin - would have the means to manipulate the Void to shield a unit that small or develop the means to adapt to all damage (except Void) that Sentients had.

Closest thing would probably be a giant Golden Maw which requires the Operator to use some kind of void-enhanced melee or just the amp to hit exposed points that are exposed from lots of damage (reversed Tera/Gaunt/Hydro/[Unnamed flyer]lyst gameplay). Basically a reversal of Zaws/Amps for this landscape (Tenno PH:Zaws and custom-made sidearms using similar restricting methods). 

Also, there's been recent news on the Venus Landscape which I missed from the recent (yet unfortunately short) Devstream; it's apparently so big that looking at the map may be useful for once (but don't get your hopes up).

[shoopypit]

Poe is great. People don't like the new resources because now it takes effort to build the new weapons instead of just buying the blueprint and building it right away because you have a ton of resources already. It's a headache for new players too, but that's because they have so much to do already. And I'm sure they will start incorporating some of the new resources into other parts of the game at some point.

I'll take whatever they give, either way. If it's not fun, I won't play it. If it is fun, well then cool.

[AdunSaveMe]

On 14/01/2018 at 12:04 PM, shoopypit said:

People don't like the new resources because now it takes effort to build the new weapons instead of just buying the blueprint and building it right away because you have a ton of resources already.

This is a baseless generalisation. I've explained why the landscape-only resources are an issue, and it has nothing to do with this.

[(PSN)LoachOfWeather]

On the topic of resources, I hope that the PoE resources do make their way into the requirements for new weaponry and items that eventually come out, yeah sure it'll be grind and stuff for them but at least it gives us incentive to actually visit the plains.

[GinKenshin]

I’d rather wait and see, but I’m kinda split in between

 

   On one hand, DE got ‘major’ recognition after Poe, some may say its luck, so they need to impress with at least the OW after Poe...lighting doesn’t strike twice in the same place as they say. So you know they’ll innovate, maybe not mining and fishing but something else, another mini grind if you will 

 

  As for the resources, I’m pretty sure they’ll come up with new ones. They stated that using the same resources that most ppl have millions of isn’t what they want, and that’s fair and a good point....I expect there’ll be similar resources for grineer, and same thing for corpus OW. As in all grineer plains will have ghrokdul for example

 

   If they’ll go for mining, only the rare ones would be exclusive to that OW, like nyth for Poe 

 

   Basically, I think they have to innovate with Venus OW and make new systems and mechanics, and for Venus, they’ll make new resources, but for future OWs, they’ll share resources with other OWs and not starchart

[Autongnosis]

I agree fully. Also, i would go as far as to say that there should also be a way to trade the starchart resources to ostrons for poe resources or reputation. 

I like the idea of having inter landscape market. It would bring much life to them. 

I also agree that poe resources should be divided into classes (ie oil, mineral, etc) and have any of the other Landscapes resources of that class work as substitutes. 

 

[OniDax]

PoE's problem is ultimately that it's a poor open world environment, offering a poor open world experience. There is very little to do, the world is dead (little NPC presence, no simulation of life, barely any interactivity with the environment, very few gameplay options, etc). I've written multi-paragraph essays on what DE can do to improve their open worlds overall. They're only just now listening with them finally adding vehicles (non-archwing) to the in-game world.

The only thing I can say is that they should take a look at Ghost Recon Wildlands. That game isn't perfect, but its approach to open world is good. Its open world simulates life in Bolivia. The world is open and vast, the civilian, friendly, and enemy NPCs actually travel throughout the entire world on foot and in vehicles, simulating real life. They interact with each other and with the player, creating dynamic experiences. The core movement is smooth and life-like, making for an enjoyable, immersive free roam experience. The gunplay is good as well, with a movement scheme (weapon always up in the ready position, and moving with the camera) that ensures the player has good control of where they're aiming at all times. There are many types of vehicles, and many vehicles parked throughout the open world (hundreds), ensuring that movement throughout the world is diverse, offering the player many different travel options to keep gameplay fresh. The missions are dynamic, and many involve more than just shooting enemies or defending objectives, which makes the game much more replayable. They don't just randomly spawn in around the player. The dynamic side missions spawn from the moment the player enters the world, giving the player dozens of mission choices from the moment he/she joins a session. There are resources that the player can get from completing these side missions, that go towards unlocking the player's skill tree. It isn't RNG-based. It doesn't feel grindy because the core gameplay is fun at a fundamental level. It's not using RNG-based grind to cover up poor gameplay. There is always something to do and somewhere to go, and the open world is diverse enough in terrain that each area is recognizable and unique. The world feels alive and active and that helps create a much more immersive, enjoyable experience.

So all I can say is that DE should check the game out, and see how the game approaches open world, because it would help them improve their own open world.

Rebecca, Please pass these suggestions, and those of the OP, on to the dev team. I'm not trying to step on any toes, but as you've now seen with vehicles in the open world, features that are common to other open world shooters (like vehicles, for example) can work well for Warframe's open world, and it's beneficial to see what other open world shooters have done and how they approach open world. This will help Warframe's open world succeed.

EDIT: Well, I guess they're not interested in the suggestions since they removed the tag. Shame. Wish you guys were as community friendly as the Wildlands community team. They actually pass on community suggestions to their dev team. Maybe I've just spent too long of a time away from here.

Hopefully the mods can pass on these suggestions. Please understand that we're not making suggestions because we hate the game, but because we want to see it grow and get better. I hope you don't feel intimidated by our suggestions and feedback.

Edited January 19, 2018 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[Burned-Toast]

I'm expecting interplanetary imports to be a thing, so im also expecting that plains resources are usable on venus

[BlackCoMerc]

20 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

PoE's problem is ultimately that it's a poor open world environment, offering a poor open world experience. There is very little to do, the world is dead (little NPC presence, no simulation of life, barely any interactivity with the environment, very few gameplay options, etc). I've written multi-paragraph essays on what DE can do to improve their open worlds overall. They're only just now listening with them finally adding vehicles (non-archwing) to the in-game world.

The only thing I can say is that they should take a look at Ghost Recon Wildlands. That game isn't perfect, but its approach to open world is good. Its open world simulates life in Bolivia. The world is open and vast, the civilian, friendly, and enemy NPCs actually travel throughout the entire world on foot and in vehicles, simulating real life. They interact with each other and with the player, creating dynamic experiences. The core movement is smooth and life-like, making for an enjoyable, immersive free roam experience. The gunplay is good as well, with a movement scheme (weapon always up in the ready position, and moving with the camera) that ensures the player has good control of where they're aiming at all times. There are many types of vehicles, and many vehicles parked throughout the open world (hundreds), ensuring that movement throughout the world is diverse, offering the player many different travel options to keep gameplay fresh. The missions are dynamic, and many involve more than just shooting enemies or defending objectives, which makes the game much more replayable. They don't just randomly spawn in around the player. The dynamic side missions spawn from the moment the player enters the world, giving the player dozens of mission choices from the moment he/she joins a session. There are resources that the player can get from completing these side missions, that go towards unlocking the player's skill tree. It isn't RNG-based. It doesn't feel grindy because the core gameplay is fun at a fundamental level. It's not using RNG-based grind to cover up poor gameplay. There is always something to do and somewhere to go, and the open world is diverse enough in terrain that each area is recognizable and unique. The world feels alive and active and that helps create a much more immersive, enjoyable experience.

So all I can say is that DE should check the game out, and see how the game approaches open world, because it would help them improve their own open world.

Rebecca, Please pass these suggestions, and those of the OP, on to the dev team. I'm not trying to step on any toes, but as you've now seen with vehicles in the open world, features that are common to other open world shooters (like vehicles, for example) can work well for Warframe's open world, and it's beneficial to see what other open world shooters have done and how they approach open world. This will help Warframe's open world succeed.

So much this.

Compared to Wildlands, which has utterly replaced Warframe for me, at least for some time...PoE is just a large mission tile. Especially since Free Roam is Unrewarding and pointless.

[AdunSaveMe]

On 15/01/2018 at 11:20 PM, Autongnosis said:

I like the idea of having inter landscape market. It would bring much life to them. 

And that's not the only benefit. It makes them less sectioned-off.

We should be learning from PoE to improve the game as a whole, and there's a lot to learn.