In Keeping with DE's new philosophy other nerfs are needed

[Shockwave-]

"We understand the importance of power fantasy, but overbearing abilities can make squadmates feel ineffective by seriously disrupting intended gameplay flow. "

DE's new direction seems to be - if you use your abilities and kill too well or too fast it, while it is good for the team, and good for the objective, it makes other players feel bad if their chosen frame isn't doing enough.

That being said there are a number of things in the game that now require the nerf treatment that Ember has received.

Opticor/Lanka/a few others.

Players using these weapons in POE can stand in a place with a good view and one shot incoming drop ships. Some use Chroma, which has been nerfed but it's not required (volt also works well). While you are defending a vault or holding camp, you can literally have no enemies to fight because the player is standing on a tower or cliff and one shotting every incoming drop ship. I have literally played through this stage of the bountiy with zero enemies to fight. This is the exact same issue cited by DE with regard to the changes to Ember and Banshee. This disrupts the intended gamplay flow for other players, thus these weapons need to have their damage nerfed.

Limbo Stasis

Obviously if you don't bring a melee weapon to the mission, a large radius limbo stasis area can keep you from killing any enemies. I've had the experience of collecting a focus orb and not being able to kill very much during its duration with my lensed weapon because the stasis field prevented the use of that weapon until after the focus orb was over. Again, this clearly interrupts intended gameplay flow for other players.

Saryn

Banshee's RQ was only useful in stationary missions (defense or interception) or at least required Banshee to be stationary. Saryn, while stationary can also clear entery defense levels simply by casting spores on her molt and shooting ignis at it (or various other methods). Standing in one spot killing everything in the defense wave (or the majority of things) is exactly the same thing banshee was doing that required changes. Saryn can even gain energy while doing it, and do it every wave/ constantly.

Equinox

The maim build on equinox was largely the same as WOF - a large radius killing area (in this case from slash procs) which could actually out damage an ember in many cases. WIth the addition of the large damage boost on toggle/off toggle on, but in much low level content you aren't required to toggle it off and on to be effective. While not as visible as WOF, it still has the same effect of disrupting game play flow for other players.

[Brinie]

I have a feeling that you're being facetious, but it is likely that all of these things will be nerfed with time. People were bringing up ember whenever the araca plasmor was nerfed and it did not take long for them to fix her. The logic that just because one thing was nerfed means that everything else is off the table is very flawed. So just wait and they'll eventually get to it.

[BiancaRoughfin]

29 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

"We understand the importance of power fantasy, but overbearing abilities can make squadmates feel ineffective by seriously disrupting intended gameplay flow. "

DE's new direction seems to be - if you use your abilities and kill too well or too fast it, while it is good for the team, and good for the objective, it makes other players feel bad if their chosen frame isn't doing enough.

That being said there are a number of things in the game that now require the nerf treatment that Ember has received.

Opticor/Lanka/a few others.

Players using these weapons in POE can stand in a place with a good view and one shot incoming drop ships. Some use Chroma, which has been nerfed but it's not required (volt also works well). While you are defending a vault or holding camp, you can literally have no enemies to fight because the player is standing on a tower or cliff and one shotting every incoming drop ship. I have literally played through this stage of the bountiy with zero enemies to fight. This is the exact same issue cited by DE with regard to the changes to Ember and Banshee. This disrupts the intended gamplay flow for other players, thus these weapons need to have their damage nerfed.

Limbo Stasis

Obviously if you don't bring a melee weapon to the mission, a large radius limbo stasis area can keep you from killing any enemies. I've had the experience of collecting a focus orb and not being able to kill very much during its duration with my lensed weapon because the stasis field prevented the use of that weapon until after the focus orb was over. Again, this clearly interrupts intended gameplay flow for other players.

Saryn

Banshee's RQ was only useful in stationary missions (defense or interception) or at least required Banshee to be stationary. Saryn, while stationary can also clear entery defense levels simply by casting spores on her molt and shooting ignis at it (or various other methods). Standing in one spot killing everything in the defense wave (or the majority of things) is exactly the same thing banshee was doing that required changes. Saryn can even gain energy while doing it, and do it every wave/ constantly.

Equinox

The maim build on equinox was largely the same as WOF - a large radius killing area (in this case from slash procs) which could actually out damage an ember in many cases. WIth the addition of the large damage boost on toggle/off toggle on, but in much low level content you aren't required to toggle it off and on to be effective. While not as visible as WOF, it still has the same effect of disrupting game play flow for other players.

Understand one thing, if you are killing everything in the map just by standing with a single skill active, you are not in a position to argue about right or wrong.

Banshee had an Augment changed, no real nerf to her ability, Ember's World of Fire now deals double the damage and people only call the change a nerf because of energy consumption, Chroma had a FIX done to his skill which wasnt functioning as intended since he was launched. Players have no right to complain about the change, they are the ones who knew the skill wasnt working right and took the chance playing him and got spoiled.

[Condeangel]

I think the main reason to WoF change was people using it. I have barely met people nuking with saryn or equinox. I did found TONS of people with Ember, and a lot of people using banshee too. AS for the weapons. Well. You can do that at lvl 30. But at lvl 60, with the big ships coming.. thats not happening at all. Also, its rare to see people playing like that now, since it is boring. Unlike Ember egoist people that wants to end fast, but still play public. Also, that weapons actually means you have to have good reaction time, be fast pulling the trigger (3 ships can spawn at the time) and you have the "pods" that spawn mobs without deploying ships, so no press 4 to win at all.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Condeangel

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

The fundamental flaw is you cannot have something that is effective at the upper end (not even talking endless, or even sortie but just Sedna level enemies) that does NOT nuke low level maps.  Until something is done to separate the higher level players & gear from the lower level missions, this will always be the case. Doesn't matter if its AOE abilities, whips, ignis, lesions. 

The only thing these nerfs are doing is driving away players who have maxed gear (doesnt matter if its veterans or akkad babies) as the game keeps pushing new content aimed at entry level players.  At some point the developers need to realize there is plenty of content - YEARS of content already available for new players.  

"veterans" have been asking for more end game content - instead they get new shiny weapons.  Which on first release HAVE to be OP or they wouldnt be at all desirable to these players. But then they need a "re-balance" shortly after to prevent them running amok in the star chart.

DE needs to add content that is actually challenging.  They need to gate this content from new players so they actually have something to work toward - a goal to reach. No taxis allowed. And it needs to have rewards commensurate with the challenge.  perhaps higher resource drop rates (ie perhaps the missions take longer but due to higher drop rates there is no efficiency loss to the player).  

They can't keep mixing maxed gear, players with years of experience and throw them in the same pig pen with the poor soul who started yesterday and expect the new guy to have a good time.

[Fallen_Echo]

8 hours ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

No taxis allowed. 

I mostly agree with your points expect this.

Let the new players enter those places, lets make them see what is the goal, let them feel what it means to be powerful when they cant scratch the enemy but the others are up to the challange.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

1 minute ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I mostly agree with your points expect this.

Let the new players enter those places, lets make them see what is the goal, let them feel what it means to be powerful when they cant scratch the enemy but the others are up to the challange.

The main reason for this is to prevent resource and xp leeching. Plenty of games have the same concept of you need to be level x before you can get here - and that alone motivates people to get to level x.  

There is SO MUCH low to mid tier content in WF, and endless missions where they can see the (in)effectiveness of their loads on higher level content they don't need to see it again.

But thats just my opinion. And I'm tired of seeing low level players just get wrecked on Hydron, Axi fissures, Mot, and the countless other places that are trivial to run if you have a decent kit. And then of course they just run for extraction killing the point of endless missions in the first place and beg to get out or need to be revived all the time or whatever.

 

[Fallen_Echo]

Just now, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

The main reason for this is to prevent resource and xp leeching. Plenty of games have the same concept of you need to be level x before you can get here - and that alone motivates people to get to level x.  

There is SO MUCH low to mid tier content in WF, and endless missions where they can see the (in)effectiveness of their loads on higher level content they don't need to see it again.

But thats just my opinion. And I'm tired of seeing low level players just get wrecked on Hydron, Axi fissures, Mot, and the countless other places that are trivial to run if you have a decent kit. And then of course they just run for extraction killing the point of endless missions in the first place and beg to get out or need to be revived all the time or whatever.

 

How about a soft barrier?

They can go there but cant get more rewards than 10% of what they would get from a normal mission for their level?

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

Just now, Fallen_Echo said:

How about a soft barrier?

They can go there but cant get more rewards than 10% of what they would get from a normal mission for their level?

In the end it doesn't really matter. DE doesn't seem interested in adding content for long-term players. 

  But so long as low level players get into high level missions on public matchmaking they will always want to run away in short order or otherwise ruin the flow by being a liability for the people actually doing the work. And so long as there is not content for long-term players, OP weapons and frames will continue to speed run low level missions.  i'm opposed to a soft barrier as well - If they can't understand "Node X - Survival -Enemy level 100+" and how that might be hard for them if they can't do a survival on 20-25 level enemies for more than 5 minutes no soft barrier and sneak peak is going to fix that.  And the very fact that it exists should tell them its possible.

 

[samuelx43a]

wut? since when does the lanka have to be nerfed? 

as for the limbo stasis, nothing new there, so moving on

For saryn, I don't complain when she is around because I can actually kill the darn enemies, unlike mrs ember that just outright kills the darn baddies in seconds.

opticor also is still mostly single target based. it dooes have a small splash radii, but yeah, that definitevily does not need a nerf

[Shockwave-]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 11:27 PM, Condeangel said:

I think the main reason to WoF change was people using it. I have barely met people nuking with saryn or equinox. I did found TONS of people with Ember, and a lot of people using banshee too. AS for the weapons. Well. You can do that at lvl 30. But at lvl 60, with the big ships coming.. thats not happening at all. Also, its rare to see people playing like that now, since it is boring. Unlike Ember egoist people that wants to end fast, but still play public. Also, that weapons actually means you have to have good reaction time, be fast pulling the trigger (3 ships can spawn at the time) and you have the "pods" that spawn mobs without deploying ships, so no press 4 to win at all.

Ah.. but it's not about press 4 to win. Read the quoted line from DE. DE made this change because Ember would make other players in the squad feel "ineffective", I don't care how good your reaction time is, if you are shooting down 100% of the drop ships you are making the other players feel ineffective. There are not always pods dropping in. depends on the location and mission.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Shockwave-

[Condeangel]

1 minute ago, Shockwave- said:

Ah.. but it's not about press 4 to win. Read the quoted line from DE. DE made this change because Ember would make other players in the squad feel "ineffective", I don't care how good your reaction time is, if you are shooting down 100% of the drop ships you are making the other players feel ineffective.

Of course, That is a great reason too. It was really fustrating to met some of these ember nukers, specially when you ask them to stop it and they reply with git gud and that nonsense, and saying they where the top player in missions like sabotage, where they only run around, and didnt activate a single objective.

But not all embers where like that. I know that farming is a pain for some of them, and they want to end it fast. But not being able to play is a pain way greater in my opinion. So i hope the ember users can user her properly, without damaging playing experience to other players. I also hope that people dont go to saryn and equinox next. Those werent used that much, and i hope that we dont see another cancer growing within the game. We already have some serious sickness here and there. (I do use saryn to lvl up friends fast in defense missions, but we try to get other people that wants to lvl up, and minimze the damage as much as possible. I still feel bad though )

[Shockwave-]

4 minutes ago, Condeangel said:

Of course, That is a great reason too. It was really fustrating to met some of these ember nukers, specially when you ask them to stop it and they reply with git gud and that nonsense, and saying they where the top player in missions like sabotage, where they only run around, and didnt activate a single objective.

But not all embers where like that. I know that farming is a pain for some of them, and they want to end it fast. But not being able to play is a pain way greater in my opinion. So i hope the ember users can user her properly, without damaging playing experience to other players. I also hope that people dont go to saryn and equinox next. Those werent used that much, and i hope that we dont see another cancer growing within the game. We already have some serious sickness here and there. (I do use saryn to lvl up friends fast in defense missions, but we try to get other people that wants to lvl up, and minimze the damage as much as possible. I still feel bad though )

I just hope DE nerfs Saryn, Equinox, Whip ranges, Maiming strike, OHK primaries, like opticor, etc. Then when everything everyone likes is nerfed perhaps people will stop calling for nerfs and address the actual issues. Which are - matchmaking MR 25s and MR1s when there is a catalyst or nintain allergy on mercury, and forcing end game players with endgame equipment to run through mercury for any alert at all (alerts should be by MR and funnel you to a higher difficulty level, unless you are on friends only, invite only, solo).

Edited February 12, 2018 by Shockwave-

[Condeangel]

52 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

I just hope DE nerfs Saryn, Equinox, Whip ranges, Maiming strike, OHK primaries, like opticor, etc. Then when everything everyone likes is nerfed perhaps people will stop calling for nerfs and address the actual issues. Which are - matchmaking MR 25s and MR1s when there is a catalyst or nintain allergy on mercury, and forcing end game players with endgame equipment to run through mercury for any alert at all (alerts should be by MR and funnel you to a higher difficulty level, unless you are on friends only, invite only, solo).

Yeah. Or even not MRs, but for hours invested, quest mades, etc. But even not being PvP, matchmaking still is a vital component here. Another possibility could be something like nightmare missions, but way more expanded. I mean, for example, each node has a higher lvl option for more veteran players, but with better rewards . Even the relics and alerts included. It would also avoid spoilers, since the operator abilities like void dash have nice effects in later gameplay, but using it in low level nodes would show new players a vital part of the lore waaaaay before they should, ruining the surprise

[Burned-Toast]

On 2/9/2018 at 7:46 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

Ember's World of Fire now deals double the damage and people only call the change a nerf because of energy consumption

Personally, id be more sad because wof's range dies 15 seconds after the cast

[Mattoropael]

On 2/10/2018 at 10:58 AM, Brinie said:

I have a feeling that you're being facetious, but it is likely that all of these things will be nerfed with time. People were bringing up ember whenever the araca plasmor was nerfed and it did not take long for them to fix her. The logic that just because one thing was nerfed means that everything else is off the table is very flawed. So just wait and they'll eventually get to it.

You've just described the never-ending cycle of nerf-mongering - There will always be another "OP" thing after you nerf the previous to the ground.

Even if you nerf everything to the ground, something will still be better than the others, and then you'll have to nerf that again.... and then something else becomes the least trash out of a massive trash pile, and so on...

Just look at Planetside 2 and its miserable state for an example of what happens when these endless nerf-mongering actually go through the devs and get deployed.

[Shockwave-]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 10:46 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

Understand one thing, if you are killing everything in the map just by standing with a single skill active, you are not in a position to argue about right or wrong.

Banshee had an Augment changed, no real nerf to her ability, Ember's World of Fire now deals double the damage and people only call the change a nerf because of energy consumption, Chroma had a FIX done to his skill which wasnt functioning as intended since he was launched. Players have no right to complain about the change, they are the ones who knew the skill wasnt working right and took the chance playing him and got spoiled.

This is non sequitur. I almost never saw any ember standing still nuking everything. That was a very very rare event. Most were rushing low level alerts.

[Brinie]

12 hours ago, Mattoropael said:

You've just described the never-ending cycle of nerf-mongering - There will always be another "OP" thing after you nerf the previous to the ground.

Even if you nerf everything to the ground, something will still be better than the others, and then you'll have to nerf that again.... and then something else becomes the least trash out of a massive trash pile, and so on...

Just look at Planetside 2 and its miserable state for an example of what happens when these endless nerf-mongering actually go through the devs and get deployed.

The whole, "But, what about x,y,z?" thing that happens when anything gets nerfed is very childish to me. It is not making a case in regards of reverting the nerf to whatever thing they liked, but painting a target on x,y,z instead.