Why Chroma will never be tanky again: (UPDATED TO CONTAIN THE BEST BALANCING IDEAS IN THE FIRST POST)

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 minute ago, Walkampf said:

Actually, Chroma was designed with both, western dragons, as well as eastern dragons, in mind.

While western dragons are synonimous with power and horting treasures, their eastern brothers are actually a sign of bringing luck and prosperity to people. Hence he was considered to be team-buffer from the very beginning of his development.

This is also represented in his deluxe skin. It features a symbol, which some really uneducated people in this forum thought to be Nazi germanys swastika.

The actual symbol, that is displayed however is actually a symbol for 'luck' featured in several eastern world religions, that are predating the Nazis for thousands of years.

The luck and prosperity theme is found not in his team buffs, but in his Ult, Effigy, which has a credit booster. This has no correlation to his buffs. Vex Armor was never intended to be a team buff. This is fact since they actually had to add that into his kit. That is simply a temporary band-aid to fix the fact that chroma is weaker now than they intend, but they have no way to get him there. If team buffs were really something Chroma should have focused on, then fixing Elemental Ward should have been a priority. Vex Armor being team based is simply an appeasement to the understandable nerf he got.

[Walkampf]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Lead_Codpiece:

How many years that “bug” was in the game? It’s obviously a nerf.

 

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Crixus044:

I don't believe it was left there willingly. I believe DE wanted a fair fix of this, but could not figure out how to do it. They still probably haven't figured it out, but due to the eidolon's they deemed that they had to do SOMETHING to stop the chroma 1-sho, so he got the nerf hammer. One bad coding problem to another.

It was already fixed once, but that caused stupid people to cause an uproar. (Déjà-vue?)

So they rolled the fix back in order to silence those crying children.

[Lead_Codpiece]

6 минут назад, Walkampf сказал:

 

It was already fixed once, but that caused stupid people to cause an uproar. (Déjà-vue?)

So they rolled the fix back in order to silence those crying children.

Those “crying children” has put time and money in this game, so they have all rights to cause an uproar. Anyway at current state rhino is still better as a team buffer, and in some cases as a tank (if you use telos boltace trick, he can gain 300 000 ferrite armor)

Edited February 12, 2018 by Lead_Codpiece

[Walkampf]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Crixus044:

Vex Armor was never intended to be a team buff.

Well... it is now...

Guess what? The Devs are free to change their mind about their property.

Welcome to Warframe. DE changes core elements all the time.

Personally, this is the very reason i've sticked vor almost half a decade to the game.

With kind regard,

a Frost-Main, who remembers the invulnerable Snowglobe.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Walkampf

[ArchPhaeton]

On 2/10/2018 at 9:43 AM, Trichouette said:

-

Chroma was overkill, you didn't need to be that tanky in order to do anything.

 

People like to put things like DE has to balance around a player soloing a lv200 eximus defense.

 

On 2/10/2018 at 9:53 AM, Wevi said:

- DE is snuffing out paths that get too big (massive exposure due to edidolon). chroma's fate was seal as soon as more people used him as a meta for something.-

-. instead of singling out one branch they should help the rest and make even more branches for the flow of water to give people the creative freedom instead of just shutdown any frame that gets too big.-

This should be printed in gold letters and put as a sticky in every forum so that both players and devs engrave it in their minds. Players don't seem to realize the well established cycle of "nerfing the most used setups" we've been experiencing for a while now.

 

[Walkampf]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Lead_Codpiece:

Those “crying children” has put time and money in this game, so they have all rights o cause an uproar

No, they don't since they don't own the intellectual property of Warframe or any shares of the company Digital Extreme.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Walkampf

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 minute ago, Walkampf said:

 

It was already fixed once, but that caused stupid people to cause an uproar. (Déjà-vue?)

So they rolled the fix back in order to silence those crying children.

They did not roll back anything, and calling people that are against the changes stupid is rather childish is it not? Do you have facts to back up these claims? Any mathematical proof to show that what people are saying is unnecessary pot-banging whiners? IF not, then please keep your derogating in your head.In fact, DE did not even know about the bug or how it works until last year, even though the frame was out for 2 years before (It WAS known to few such as I due to the fact that I math the hell out of this game). The change to chroma is a haste move in response to the eidolons, nothing more.

[Autongnosis]

I've read trough this thread (all of it, all the madness). I must say i am one of those who thinks the armour nerf is unwarranted. 

Let's get one thing out of the window: the damage nerf is not bad. Chroma never made full use of its damage anyway, because he wouldn't survive long enough for his bullS#&$ broken triple dipping to stop killing stuff. And it being additive is not as bas as you guys think it is. Since we know it, and sonce it's basically a constant passive buff, you only need to rethink how you mod your weapons. If Chroma gives you +700% base dmg maybe going Serration + Heavy Caliber + base damage riven might not be the optimal choice. Ypu can treat Chroma's buff as a 9th mod slot that solves all your base damage needs. It can enable you to do some more interesting builds imo. That's not inherently a bad thing. You just need to shift perspective. 

 

That said, the good points are over. Let's for a second look at Chroma's rework.

His spectral scream now no lpnger makes you a snail and is effected by Vex Armour's boost. Sounds nice, if not for the fact that Spectral Scream still does S#&$ for damage compared to any kind of half modded weapon even with vex's buff. 

Vex armour is nerfed really hard. Self explainatory. 

Vex armour is recastable. Well, it sure is nice to switch it from a moderately engaging mechanic, with the timers and the shield management that you need to watch, to a simple "press x every y secs forever". This makes ot more boring, sort of like Trinity's Blessing - it was the self damage abuse that needed a look, now it's just boring. 

So, yikes...? 

On top of that i've seen a lot of misinformation around this topic and the forums in general. 

"nobody sees enemies higher than level 100 these days" 

This is false. There is still a good endurance community in this game (look at @Xzorn and LifeOfRio channel for example). And it's not unsanctioned content either. May i remind you that endless fissures are still in the game, and to get their full bonuses you need to go for 20 full rotations? That's 100+ minutes of survival. On enemies that maybe have 3x damage. You can't do that with 30k or less EHP if that's your only defence. 

"you don't need to be as tanky to do anything"

See above. Also, you wouldn't need it if the EHP came from things other than armour. More of it below. 

"DE said it's intended that way and no other buff works multipkicatively" 

Wrong, wrong, wrong, on so many counts. Some buffers still do multiplicative (Banshee's Sonar, Nova's MPrime, Volt's Shield, Rhino's Roar). Almost all of the tanks work on a multiplicative formula, that is flat DR, that can also multiply itself (see Trinity, or Nekros with an Healer ancient). 

What was broken with the damage portion, as @IceColdHawk said, was it double dipping into elemental combos and triple dipping into base combo elemental damage, making the x4-6 multiplier into a x16-36/x64-216 one, which WAS broken. They decided to fix the bug and nerf his buff output. Fine. But again why touch Scorn as well? 

"chroma was immortal" 

Hardly so. As Xzorn showed many times, being an armour only based DR with no status immunity and no CC to boot, Chroma suffered incredibly against all kinds of damage modifiers, and bleed procs. Comparatively speaking he needs a lot more EHP than something like Nidus or Nekros because they use flat DR on top of armour AND status immunity and thus suffer way less from damage modifiers and can't get bleed procs. 

"it's the end of selfish chromas, now chroma is a team player bruh" 

With 18m radius and the crappy you either hug me or get nothing mechanic Elemental Ward and Vex Armour have, that's hardly feasible. Elemental Ward at least has Everlasting Ward. Vex armour doesn't. There is a reason the good buffers either have 25+m base range (Rhino), work for the full duration after you get effected once (Roar, Smoke Shadow etc) or are based on affinity share radius (Harrow and Trinity). The aura mechanic is terrible for low range abilities. Think about it: with how fast we move even 42m (a max range ward, which cripples your power strenght) is barely adequate. And definitely not adequate if you have to stay there to get a buff. The situation worsens if you decide not to cripple your buff (26m radius). Let alone for the fact that half the buff is not very well received by most frames. Whooo, my Banshee has 165 armour if i hug that 1000% scorn chroma. I sure am tanky now :P

"chroma was too tanky for his own good" and similar assumptions. 

Chroma had monstrous EHP, true. Chroma also only had armour, which is a terrible DR source as showed many times before. Other similar frames have massive EHP regen sources, or CC, or both. Chroma gets none of that. 

"chroma now has a place in a team other than oneshotting eidolon limbs" 

It's quite the opposite actually. Chroma is now a worse buffer than most buffers, not because of his potential buff which is good, but because it has terrible mechanics (again the aura) AND because it's heavily dependend on how you mod your weapons. If a Chroma stands by my Pyrana he'll buff me for jack S#&$, being my base damage modifiers are already through the roof (thanks riven). Same with my Scourge, and i could make a lot of other examples. Nova just makes everything do 2x. Rhino easily by 2.5x. Etc. He's also not a good brawler / front man anymore, since Rhino, Nekros, Nidus, Trinity, Mesa can all do that AND bring some other utility to the team. 

 

Chroma is in a really bad spot now. DE needs to decide what they want from the frame. He used to be something this game lacks entirely, an in-your-face brawling behemot that doesn't do fancy mechanics, just pure brutality. Now that's gone, and it's turned into a mediocre brawler and an even more mediocre buffer. 

DE needs to decide which way they want to go. Chrima can be a mediocre tank, but he needs to be a very good buffer then. Or he can go back to being a very good brawling tank, and get some mediocre buffing thrown in. Having mediocrity in both camps put it in a worse spot than Oberon occupied before his rework. 

Sorry for the wall of text, and peace out :) 

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Crixus044:

I don't believe it was left there willingly. I believe DE wanted a fair fix of this, but could not figure out how to do it. They still probably haven't figured it out, but due to the eidolon's they deemed that they had to do SOMETHING to stop the chroma 1-sho, so he got the nerf hammer. One bad coding problem to another.

my hope is that the bew dmg system dmg 3.0 will fix this problem. anyway the could just make fury additive and scorn multiply

[Walkampf]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Crixus044:

The change to chroma is a haste move in response to the eidolons, nothing more.

They literally said almost a year ago, that a fix will happen.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/788574-octavia’s-anthem-hotfix-2023/

The eidolon issue simply forced them to play their hands.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Walkampf

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Walkampf:

They literally said almost a year ago, that a fix will happen.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/788574-octavia’s-anthem-hotfix-2023/

The eidolon issue simply forced them to play their hands.

yeah they announced it one year ago and didnt tink about chabges one week before the new eidolons came out. doesnt make it less hasty.

it like: "uh i git one week for homework" and then starting the night before. its still hasty.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

13 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Well... it is now...

Guess what? The Devs are free to change their mind about their property.

Welcome to Warframe. DE changes core elements all the time.

Personally, this is the very reason i've sticked vor almost half a decade to the game.

With kind regard,

a Frost-Main, who remembers the invulnerable Snowglobe.

First off, much respect for being a frost main. Frost has been through the ringer, and I feel he's finally been given due justice and is now one of the best frames in the game. I too remember invulnerable snowglobe. As a Rhino main, I miss the days of invulnerable Iron skin. My beliefs on invulnerability powers are complex, but fair.

I remember first seeing parkour 2.0, the rework saga, melee 2.0, damage 2.0, and I remember a time when level 100 was a challenge (pre-shadow debt). Though all this, I know how much DE shifts their game. Great. That means that Vex Armor will get fixed once DE get's input from their loyal and devoted community, along with mathematical and gameplay proof, which we are presenting here.

"They literally said almost a year ago, that a fix will happen.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/788574-octavia’s-anthem-hotfix-2023/

The eidolon issue simply forced them to play their hands."

This is not wrong, but you're not getting my point. The change is incomplete and DE knows this. They were up for making a fair change by making Vex Armor a total damage multiplier, just not triple dipping. This was said in an earlier Primetime. The fix to the problem will be rectified soon ,but this change they brought out was simply done is haste to put off the eidolon problem. They eve said this, that they will continue adjusting Chroma later in their workshop.

Edited February 12, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Walkampf]

Gerade eben schrieb DeadlyCreation:

yeah they announced it one year ago and didnt tink about chabges one week before the new eidolons came out. doesnt make it less hasty.

it like: "uh i git one week for homework" and then starting the night before. its still hasty.

Of course they thought about the fixes. Back in april 2017 they knew the issue was that te values were multiplied several times.

They now fixed that exact mathematial anomaly.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Walkampf:

Of course they thought about the fixes. Back in april 2017 they knew the issue was that te values were multiplied several times.

They now fixed that exact mathematial anomaly.

no they didnt fix the double and tripple dipping exploit. the source of chroma being op. they just removed anything that made chroma good interely. same treatment as raids are getting. fixing bugs? no remove them.

 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

2 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Of course they thought about the fixes. Back in april 2017 they knew the issue was that te values were multiplied several times.

They now fixed that exact mathematial anomaly.

That's not all they changed. They could have left it a total multiplier, just not dipping multiple times. They could not figure out how to do this, so they just decided to make it base stats. Now remain focused, because I don't want this to veer off into a debate on the damage multiplier. This is about chroma's tankiness. Intended or not, the old buff was perfectly fine. With the change, intended or not, he's far too weak. That's the facts.

[Walkampf]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Crixus044:

This is not wrong, but you're not getting my point. The change is incomplete and DE knows this.

The change wasn't incomplete.

Vex Armor was not working as intended and they decided to let the children keep their overpowered plaything.

Now Vex Armor behaves like any other ability with similar effects.

The new problem that all those children are now throwing a new temper tantrum, because their overpowered plaything not not as strong as before and now they are trying to shut up those children, because those litereally don't understand the issue.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Crixus044:

That's not all they changed. They could have left it a total multiplier, just not dipping multiple times. They could not figure out how to do this, so they just decided to make it base stats. Now remain focused, because I don't want this to veer off into a debate on the damage multiplier. This is about chroma's tankiness. Intended or not, the old buff was perfectly fine. With the change, intended or not, he's far too weak. That's the facts.

exactly. i dont kniw why all the DE defender are bringing back up fury. we all know it was stupidly broken. i have the feeling that the only arguement they have left because, chroma beibg the worst tank is a fact. and since he is aquired late in game he should be one of the best if nit the best fmtank frame

[Walkampf]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Crixus044:

Now remain focused, because I don't want this to veer off into a debate on the damage multiplier. This is about chroma's tankiness. 

That's exacly the issue you people don't get.

It doesn't matter if you discuss Scorn or Fury, both are using the very same formula!

You can't discuss one without the other, since they are the same formula.

[Lead_Codpiece]

3 минуты назад, Walkampf сказал:

That's exacly the issue you people don't get.

It doesn't matter if you discuss Scorn or Fury, both are using the very same formula!

You can't discuss one without the other, since they are the same formula.

Well if new formula doesn’t do the thing (we still have to play same minmaxed build, + scream is still useless, + buffs has low range), that’s when you tweak it, that’s the issue you don’t get

Edited February 12, 2018 by Lead_Codpiece

[(PSN)Crixus044]

11 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

The change wasn't incomplete.

Vex Armor was not working as intended and they decided to let the children keep their overpowered plaything.

Now Vex Armor behaves like any other ability with similar effects.

The new problem that all those children are now throwing a new temper tantrum, because their overpowered plaything not not as strong as before and now they are trying to shut up those children, because those litereally don't understand the issue.

You are using facts about the Fury buff, not the Scorn buff. There are quite a few abilities that buff total Armor. 7 armor buffs to be exact. 2 of them buff additive armor. 3 buff total armor (use to be 5 with vex armor and old Hallowed Ground), and only 1 buffed base armor (now it's 2). So statistically speaking, total armor modifiers are still the most popular and intended buffs.

 

9 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

That's exacly the issue you people don't get.

It doesn't matter if you discuss Scorn or Fury, both are using the very same formula!

You can't discuss one without the other, since they are the same formula.

This is incorrect. Scorn uses a total armor multiplier, which means it multiplies all final armor at once. Fury was using a weapons multiplier, which is why it was bugged. Let me explain to you what the bug actually was so that you can understand. The bug was that Chroma would buff elementals separately, and thus double dipping into multipliers for that elemental base combined elementals triple dipped since they were also base stats. If Scorn and Fury were to use the same formula, Fury would be buffing abilities, since it would be a total damage multiplier like Roar. The formula's were different which is why Fury was bugged.

Im the WF math guy. Trust me on this one.

Edited February 12, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Walkampf:

That's exacly the issue you people don't get.

It doesn't matter if you discuss Scorn or Fury, both are using the very same formula!

You can't discuss one without the other, since they are the same formula.

just create a second formula and make both buffs run on different formulas.

thats definately something that should be possible. maybe it was not in this short amoubt of time but hopefully can implement slmething like this when they revisit chroma

[Walkampf]

vor 1 Minute schrieb DeadlyCreation:

just create a second formula and make both buffs run on different formulas.

thats definately something that should be possible. maybe it was not in this short amoubt of time but hopefully can implement slmething like this when they revisit chroma

Yeah, it's possible, but then this second half of the formula whould behave different than any other formula in the game, which was the exact reason why Vex Armor was fixed in the first place. So that whould still leave DE with the exact same problem as before.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Walkampf:

Yeah, it's possible, but then this second half of the formula whould behave different than any other formula in the game, which was the exact reason why Vex Armor was fixed in the first place. So that whould still leave DE with the exact same problem as before.

so you are saying every unique ability is an exploit because no other warframe shares the same on. that doesnt even make sense

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 minute ago, Walkampf said:

Yeah, it's possible, but then this second half of the formula whould behave different than any other formula in the game, which was the exact reason why Vex Armor was fixed in the first place. So that whould still leave DE with the exact same problem as before.

Not true. Simply applying a separate multiplier is not hard at all. This is done currently with faction mods. separate multipliers are not hard, neither are total damage multipliers like Roar. Plus, is there anything wrong with a completely different warframe having a completely different formula? It's as if he's....unique. O_O

[Autongnosis]

il y a 7 minutes, Walkampf a dit :

Yeah, it's possible, but then this second half of the formula whould behave different than any other formula in the game, which was the exact reason why Vex Armor was fixed in the first place. So that whould still leave DE with the exact same problem as before.

But that's strictly not true. 

@(PS4)Crixus044showed you most armour abilities actually either buff the total or add a flat armour value.

On top of that all of the other tanking abilities are DR based and thus work by multiplying the total EHP after armour. 

Even Rhino's Iron Skin is multiplicative, in that it gets your total armour value after mods and other buffs (ironclad charge included) and then multiplies all of it by a coefficient and by power strenght. 

Most tanking buffs in the game do not work additively. 

Also, it might be nice if, for the sake of discussion, you would stop throwing names around to "support" your claims. Makes you just look silly.