Uncle Thay's slightly biased look at the new Zephyr

[Birdframe_Prime]

Alternative title 'I told you so', but I'll get into that later.

You guys know me, I'm a bit over-the top in my Zephyr threads, rest assured, this isn't going to be different.

For those that don't; I have large amounts of time in game, and Zephyr accounts for 25% of my time. I'm dedicated, I look for possibilities, I test before I make my statements, and please do discuss the points with me, I'm entirely open to differing opinions. They just need to be pretty convincing opinions to change mine.

Key points:

With the new rework I'll be fair, and I have tested. I'm approaching this with an open mind as to what's possible, and I'm not trying to negate DEScott's hard work.

I'm also going to present my thoughts not only on the positives and negatives, but also on theory crafting, bugs, personal opinions and on possibilities.

So let's break this down into what has changed and what hasn't..

tl;dr?

The changes are not wholly bad. They aren't wholly good, it's average. What is wrong is that this misses out key problems with Zephyr's kit and either ignores them, or tries to put in something they think we wanted (because a whole lot of people didn't really care what changed on Zephyr, just that she changed).

Changes:

• Zephyr's Tailwind and Dive Bomb are combined with an 'angle detection' differentiation.
• Dive Bomb's base damage has been increased from 250 to 500.
• Tailwind now retains momentum from a cast for much longer, allowing the ability to travel further than ever.
• Tailwind now has a ground charge that, the longer you hold it, the further she goes up and the longer she hovers.
• There is a new second ability that launches a projectile not unlike the Security Eye waves on Lua, this deals some damage, knocks enemies down if hit, and then explodes with a ragdoll effect.
• Turbulence now has an animation.
• Tornado now is castable on a specific location, the nearest funnel to Zephyr (as best I can tell) will travel to the place Zephyr is looking at, and will travel faster if the Aim button is held. Shooting a Tornado funnel will apply 100% of the damage from her weapons to all enemies inside, split evenly across all enemies. You can now recast Tornado before the duration ends like you can with Tentacle swarm.
• Aiming her Air Burst at a funnel will make it bigger, this appears to have no effect besides providing a larger area to shoot at and hold enemies inside.

Well okay then...

Now, after extensive testing on different tile sets, let's look at the existing problems with these abilities as they now stand.

1. Tailwind.

This ability now gets the player jammed into the scenery on any tile set in the game. Before the lack of momentum preservation was a bit of a boon in confined spaces, it meant that once the ability finished you were not stuck in a corner of the map.

Now, with a bit of duration on it, not only are you stuck in a corner of the map, it's a corner you've never seen before and didn't really ever want to see, because the momentum has flung you 100m to the side across the wall. See example a. and b.:

Spoiler

a. I have no idea where this is...

b. I know where this is, I ended up here from the other side of the tile instead of the door that's 200m diagonally down and to the right.

With the animation still locked and the momentum preserved, more than 30% Duration appears to be simply too much for the vast majority of the game.

In fairness, Tailwind is now the most amazing movement cast in the game for the Plains of Eidolon, which is where I'm sure DE did most of their testing. I can now travel from one end to the other in a very short space of time and it's quite enjoyable when hunting for Wisps.

The Dive Bomb portion of this is angle-detection and happens whenever you're looking down. I've had mixed results. Often I've found myself grinding my gilded beak into the dirt for a good 50m because of a wrong-angled cast, or other times when I thought I was going to be zipping down the side of a hill I'm greeted with a face-plant because a rock that's sticking up from the side makes my Tailwind into a Dive Bomb.

The range has not been improved, and the effectiveness of the knock-down hasn't either. Since the base damage is a little higher I've managed to build a Strength version that can, in fact, kill level 30-40 grineer. It's been fun, when I can get it to work. But without that knock-down effectiveness, we are in exactly the same place we were with the previous incarnation of it; in short, there's no reason to cast this over Air Burst, making it a nearly obsolete function.

I say nearly, because it's not altogether obsolete, it does get you down quickly when you need to, but it is neither precise nor reliable in doing so. The view's nice though:

Spoiler

The hover is another one I have issue with. It works on the Plains, but does not work in the rest of the game. Whenever you charge it up for too long, just a half second even, you get stuck to the ceiling, or worse you get reset by the skybox limits. The camera is stuck behind you, meaning all you see when you're hovering against the ceiling is this: 

Spoiler

At best

At worst

This is not a fun function to use in anywhere except the Plains of Eidolon. It really isn't fun and doesn't serve a purpose when the height of your tiles is so low. I can count on my hands the number of places that this function doesn't cause this camera problem.

In balance, the ability has been improved, but not in a way that will help it be better in anything other than the Landscapes. I'm sure that, once DE has put one of these on every planet possible, then this form of Tailwind will be exceptionally desirable. As it stands, 99% of the rest of the game will find it clunky and regret casting it.

2. Airburst.

Now this one... I'm actually a little liking it and a little not, it's 50/50 and only because of what it could be, not what it is.

The positive side of this is that it's a very reliable ragdoll, and I mean very, very reliable. Anything it hits is down, anything in range of the burst is down, and that burst range can be very large.

If I may borrow from a fellow tester: 

Spoiler

 

So it's something that I've said many times Zephyr needs, which is reliable CC.

On the down side, the projectile is very slow, it has the same speed as the Security Eye's projectile (which I'm reasonably sure is the resource used for this ability) and this cannot be increased by, say, Jet Stream. At long range, it's better to just shoot things. A Jet Stream boosted Daikyu is more reliable... actually, considering I was testing the new stats on that today as well and shot two full-speed Dargyns and seven birds with single shots... it genuinely is a lot more reliable than many other weapons I've tried, but that's not the point.

3. Turbulence.

No real problems, but the half-second extra casting time hurts my soul.

4. Tornado.

It's still slow, it still wanders off, it's still unreliable.

The slower nature of the pick-up and scatter is an improvement, it completely negates the issue that people previously had that would cause us to want a Cancel on it. In my opinion at least. But it's just not far enough.

The aimed movement speed when walking a funnel to a location is slower than a jogging grineer, meaning you can't catch new enemies if they're running away. If you're back-pedalling to evade a Butcher, for example, it will charge at you faster than your funnel can catch up to save you.

The pick-up of the enemies does not actually keep them in the funnels, the second the funnel moves the enemies fall out, and if the funnel is moving to follow your aim then enemies can be lifted for as briefly as 2-3 seconds, which is exactly the same problem we had with the previous Tornado's reliability.

Despite the new 'cast where you're aiming' function, with high range (I have 49.5m on the current range-testing setup) it will still spawn on groups of enemies far away from where you point it. Which means that it will continue to move away from the point you actually want it to be, and calling one of those funnels back with the Aim mechanic takes longer than just killing all the enemies would anyway.

And if you're not looking to actively manage the funnels, steering each one to the next spot, and the next, I've seen them clipping into rock walls on Neptune, trying to climb the walls in Stofler and then having to come back down the way they came when I try to aim them back down again... The seeking AI just isn't reliable on its own.

Worse than that, if you're not actively managing the funnels, one of them is following you wherever you go, not being where you cast it, not helping with any effects, just following you around and trying to go where you're looking.

The free-roaming of Tornado is exactly what has been holding it back this entire time, and as long as this cast can move more than 50-60m away from the point of cast, it will remain stuck at this level of... well... just 'meh'.

So here's where things get a little... 'told you so'

I told you that angle-detection for a combined Tailwind and Dive Bomb was going to be janky.

I told you that a hover wasn't useful for any tiles without the headroom.

Whoo... got that out of my system.

Okay, but seriously now, what can we do to go forward with this?

Let's do some theory crafting, my take on what would improve this rework and what would always have improved Zephyr, which was missed by DE.

What can be done?

1. Tailwind.

Unlock the animation, stop sticking us in the super-hero pose and letting us bash our heads on rocks with every cast. If we have unlocked animation we can use Parkour, reload, re-cast and do other moves to cancel out of the movement.

What we didn't know we wanted until we saw it was the Operator Dash movement, similar to that, but not as pixel-perfect. Keep the momentum, but allow us to actually cast in a different direction, zig-zag when we need to, and when we don't want to be in a corner... we don't have to be.

A maxed out Naramon Waybound and Zenurik using Operator can travel faster than everything except a max-range Nova Warp, except they can travel sideways, up, down, anywhere they point they go, and when they get there they can do anything else they want. Another dash? Sure. Attack? Sure! No need to finish an animation, just free movement in all directions.

Give us a small boost to the base range of Dive Bomb, just enough that modded range is able to catch a wider net. Give us reliable knock down on Dive Bomb, even now a Heavy Gunner laughs at me when I try to knock it down while it's doing a Ground Slam attack, same with every other heavy, same with enemies using Alarm consoles or Interception consoles...

Let us have an aiming reticule on Dive Bomb, angle detection only works when you have some kind of indicator of where it works.

The hover needs one of two things; one is to either make it a fixed duration hover, and you simply hold for a second to charge it as a two-handed but mobile action, not one that locks you in place. The other option is to completely take away the charge function on ground and simply let us hover in mid air by holding the button to charge that hover.

Regardless of which change is done to the hover, we really, really need to fix that camera glitch when you hit a ceiling.

2. Airburst.

Speed up the projectile base. Allow the projectile speed to be affected by Turbulence. Otherwise this is actually not a bad cast and I've been enjoying it so far.

3. Turbulence.

Please cut the animation down by that half second we've lost, or make it a two-handed mobile action, or make it re-castable before end of duration. In one of any of these cases, the down sides of the animation would be mitigated.

4. Tornado.

Limit the range from point of cast.

Limited range means you can up the speed without making it over-powered.

Limited range means you can have the AI seek enemies more aggressively.

Limited range means spawning on enemies in range is more useful to the caster.

Limited range means area denial, and positive reason to recast before end of duration, also a genuine necessity for recasting to change the location.

Limited range means you don't have to have the funnels follow the point of aim.

Limited range means you can make a Defense cast out of it, for all the Defense/camp-a-room based missions in the game (including Mobile Defense, Operative Defense, Survival, Interception, even Evacuation), while currently it still doesn't have a place.

...

... I think that covers things.

In conclusion

I actually think this rework could have been a lot worse. I'm actually positive about it, in a certain way.

My first gut reaction to it, especially having now played it a lot, is that Tailwind is now actually worse to use than it ever has been except out on the Plains where the open space and sky makes it shine. Regrettably, the rest of the game is not the Plains, the rest of the game discourages you from using this version of Tailwind as it's incredibly difficult to stop yourself from going where you don't want to go. DEScott listened to the most vocal, not the most thought out responses, in all the threads across the different boards, and did not take into account the ones that had actually debated and discussed the results of those changes, and come up with ones that were objectively better.

My more measured reaction to it is that Zephyr is overall a little better, but the rework missed so much of what made Zephyr difficult to use in the first place.

There is still room to fix these, while the frames are still being bug tested, and while the abilities are still being looked at by DE.

Please, DE, just a little more love and attention to one of your oldest frames, and the first Community created frame... I think she's worth the time.

[Arkenai7]

I was somewhat hopeful that the angular divebomb would allow you to divebomb precisely where you put the cursor. That dream sadly doesn't seem to have come to fruition.

[Nytrax]

Maybe the best thing for her 1 would be to make distance be determined by how long we hold the button down. That way we could precisely control her movement and not slam into walls.

[Caelward]

The motion stopping aspects of the new Tailwind drive me bonkers. I just can't find it in me to forgive that change. To Stop and charge, for the privilege of stopping again? You know Zephyr is painfully vulnerable to explosive weapons and melee attacks if she stops moving, right? I mean, explosive weapons obliterate her.

And anchoring me in one spot in the sky feels like a personal insult to me. I'm in the sky to move, not hang around like an anchored hot-air balloon getting ready for a slow, leisurely trip above the city.

And I believe tailwind launch was damn useful. With a quick press of a key she was able to high-launch into the air without losing aim or view. Sure you can do that with a regular warframe, but there's a higher barrier of entry in making sure you have your proper button combos and set viewpoints. That convenience has been ripped out.

I mean if they wanted to make use of a hovering trick, didn't we have a humongous conversation about that already?

I went and found one of the inspirations for that conversation.

Spoiler

 

Most of the other changes just left me wondering 'Is that it? That's all? Didn't we... talk about this?' But really, other than the tailwind change I can live with the rest of it. After all, very little has actually changed for me.

Her new two is just like her old two. I've got weapons that'll do the same thing but don't cost me the energy I need so badly for her other three abilities. Since it moves slower than me or my guns, I'm unlikely to waste the energy. Believe it or not I used to use the old dive-bomb though, mostly to get into melee range. Turned out Zephyr was fantastic for getting into sword-slapping distance since she didn't care about 95% of the projectiles flying her way. No more instant dive-bomb landing. Now I actually have to figure out my relative viewpoint. And the melee slam has a weird moment of hang time where the frame lifts up before it starts coming back down.

Her three continues to be Up for as long as I can remember to reapply it and whenever I use it I'll have to short hop into the air in order to keep moving. Except now it slows me down slightly more than it did before. When you use Zephyr constantly, you notice any slow-down. See my point about losing a dedicated key for dive-bomb. See my point about losing the tailwind launch function. See my point about coming to a full stop launch into a full stop hover.

Her Tornado continues to be a rarely used ability fantastic for its environmental noise and visual pollution. The tracking continues to be terrible and I'm not at all inclined to make use of the aim function. Zephyr is too fickle and quick to pay any attention to that. Although, I guess I'd have nothing better to do when hovering in the sky, which takes me back to my very first point.

[aerelm]

Seems I won't have to post a thread myself, since you pretty much pointed out all the major issues that the post-rework Zephyr has, and I agree with most of the suggested solutions.

As for the fixes you suggested for Tail Wind, although it addresses all the issues, I think it's still a bit too complicated to be fun and easy to use, and will still feel like 3 abilities jammed into one key, while it can be simplified and turned into something simpler and more effortless to use.

The main issue with Tail Wind right now is the animation lock, which as explained in the OP, just sends us head-first into walls in any map other than a handful of larger tiles and the plains. Just allowing it the same style of control that we have over bulletjump should be enough to solve the problem.

As for Dive Bomb, one way to simplify it can be just changing it so it automatically triggers if Tail Wind hits the terrain (similar to how Airburst's explosion triggers). That will remove the height-based scaling it currently has (which isn't that much anyways, even in the plains), but will instead allow uncomplicated 360° control over Tail Wind and also angled Dive Bombs, which in my opinion would be worth it (and there's still melee slam and operator's dash for when dropping fast from beyond the usual Tail Wind range is necessary).

The Hover is a nice idea on paper, but it needs at least the same level of movement as aim glide to offer an actual advantage, otherwise aim glide would still be the better option. I personally don't mind the current cast system, but it would be really nice to be able to charge it on the move rather than being stuck in one place. The only real issue is that the amount of charge effects both the height of the hover and the duration, while if the charge only effected the height, not the duration it could add to its usefulness in typical tiles. Right now, doing a semi-charged hover gives a reasonable enough height for most regular tilesets, but makes the hover end too fast to be actually useful.

Edited February 11, 2018 by aerelm

[Paradoxbomb]

My primary issue with the Zephyr update is how needlessly complicated and clunky Tailwind is.

• Why does the dive bomb mechanic require you to look directly down? Wouldn't it be simpler and more versatile to simply have Zephyr create a radial AoE on impact with any surface, regardless of the angle she smacks into it from?
• The hover mechanic seems kinda pointless IMO; personally I would have settled for them just buffing her passive and giving her a super-extended air glide akin to Loki's super-extended wall latch passive. It doesn't help that the current mechanic takes a long time to charge and leaves you stationary and highly vulnerable.
• I actually hadn't thought much of the preserved momentum until reading this thread, it's certainly better than coming to a dead halt but it could really afford to be slowed to half of what is now.

As for the rest of her abilities:

• I agree that air-burst really needs a base speed buff, or to at least be affected by Jet Stream (or maybe even both).
• Personally I don't find Turbulence's casting animation egregiously long, but I wouldn't be against them speeding it up either.
• I think making the Tornadoes move to your reticule faster would improve them substantially, as right now most enemies can very easily outrun them. And once again I agree that they need to spawn closer to where the reticule is pointing and do a better job of actually holding onto enemies.

I do think these changes were a step in the right direction for Zephyr, but they still need some fine-tuning (which hopefully the Devs will get around to soon rather than in another few years).

[EchoesOfRain]

I appreciate the well-made topic. It points out the flaws in her current state and offers pretty simple solutions.

 

Hover i feel might need the ability to move a bit. Other people have complained that "we have aim-glide", but I like Hover better because I don't have to be zoomed in to get the benefits. Let Zephyr move while in Hover, even if it's at a slow pace. Have it reset her parkour skills too so that she can always Bullet jump out of it too. (And just a suggestion for fun, it'd be cool if while Hovering, if Zephyr rolls out of it she begins to glide while being able to shoot. Not important, but it'd be a fun addition). I'm totally down with a simple Hold-to-Cast function to activate Hover too!

 

2 hours ago, aerelm said:

As for Dive Bomb, one way to simplify it can be just changing it so it automatically triggers if Tail Wind hits the terrain (similar to how Airburst's explosion triggers). That will remove the height-based scaling it currently has (which isn't that much anyways, even in the plains), but will instead allow uncomplicated 360° control over Tail Wind and also angled Dive Bombs, which in my opinion would be worth it (and there's still melee slam and operator's dash for when dropping fast from beyond the usual Tail Wind range is necessary).

For the most part, this is all I want out of Tailwind. It would eliminate accidental use of Divebomb or accidental use of Tailwind at certain angles. It can be used as an optional offensive option as well, turning Zephyr into a living missile.

 

Overall, I think this is the thread for DE to look at for feedback. All of the problems are listed well and the solutions are simple (for the most part). Plus, the feedback feels less like we're pointing fingers and more like we actually want Zephyr's current kit to be good and feel good to use. Hoping for the best!

[Caelward]

Well, my only huge problem is when the current tailwind stops me in one spot. If I could charge on the move, and if I could actually float around when airborne, I'd have much less substantial problems.

I'm still annoyed that they went and gutted half the movement tricks I used to zip around with Zephyr, but I'm not surprised about that. Just disgusted with what they decided to go with instead.

I mean, some of the abilities that people came up with were so damn cool. And then we ended up under the notion that 'Nope, no new abilities!' so we gave up on all those many damn cool ideas. Even then I think there were some really good kit rework concepts that left her four abilities intact. Concepts that I now doubt were even noticed.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Caelward

[Birdframe_Prime]

Thanks for all the responses @Arkenai7, @Caelward, @Nytrax, @aerelm, @EchoesOfRain and @Paradoxbomb I've got a little update for you:

Spoiler

So we should have something a little more fun to look at next week ^^

[Caelward]

1 minute ago, Thaylien said:

Thanks for all the responses @Arkenai7, @Caelward, @Nytrax, @aerelm, @EchoesOfRain and @Paradoxbomb I've got a little update for you:

  Hide contents

So we should have something a little more fun to look at next week ^^

That's gratifying. I look forward to seeing what happens.

[MusashiKid]

indeed, I really agree with most of your points if not all

 

even before the rework, I seldom use Divebomb except for going down or some minor crowd control, and now I use it even less

the Tailwind, I tried to build it to duration just to see what would happen, and yea, it's pretty much uncontrollable

 

or actually, even 30% +duration is barely controllable indoor, even less so after the rework

in one way, I prefer the pre rework tailwind because it's at least somewhat good maneuvering tool since it's not too fast, but also not too slow, but in other way I prefer the post rework tailwind because somehow it feels smoother between cast now

 

now for the hover function, it is indeed impractical aside from the plains, which is a shame, I see great potential in this function

if I may add my opinion, I'd prefer rather than charge to activate from the ground, how about charge to activate anywhere? it might become more useable that way, because you are given more freedom of where you want to hover

also, the charge time feel a bit too long IMO

 

pretty much for Air Burst you've voiced my opinion, it's great, but the projectiles are way too slow

 

also, that Turbulence animation, it is indeed affect me very much

 

the Tornadoes feels not responsive enough actually

and, what's the point of being able to cast tornadoes very far from you again? I find that funny though :v

oh well, but at least they are going to the right direction IMO, I'll be waiting for that patch .w.

Edited February 11, 2018 by MusashiKid
put one sentence at wrong place

[Burned-Toast]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Thanks for all the responses @Arkenai7, @Caelward, @Nytrax, @aerelm, @EchoesOfRain and @Paradoxbomb I've got a little update for you:

  Hide contents

So we should have something a little more fun to look at next week ^^

Mmmmmyesssssssss

[Borg1611]

I think the best fix for Tailwind in closed areas is what was suggested in the other thread. Just make it proc a divebomb like effect when you collide with any surface (IE: a wall). Then you're knocked out of the animation instead of sitting there watching yourself propel into a wall. I don't want to manually cancel it if I hit a wall, just realize I hit a wall and make a nice sonic boom or explosion sound and let me quickly move on. 

Having more control while using it and being able to halt suddenly into a hover would have been neat too. I think the entire charge aspect should be dropped and changed to a long-press similar to how Gara's 1 functions. Long-press into a hover when on the ground or in mid Tailwind. A long-press takes less than a second to activate and is far more useful than a very slow obnoxious charge mechanic that seems to only exist to try to add value to cast speed mods. 

I'm not really that impressed with her 2 at all, but I don't expect for it to be replaced with another new ability so, /shrug. Even if you have a massive AoE ragdoll it doesn't serve much of a practical purpose. If my 3 is up why did I need to knock any of them away? To annoy anyone trying to shoot them? Was it a massive horde of melee mobs and I was just sort of standing there watching as they come towards me and was like, oh I know! this is what my new 2 is for! More often than not, knocking stuff around is more counterproductive than it is helpful, just as Titania's 1 is counterproductive because it makes things randomly float away when you cc them. Making the Tornadoes larger would have been useful if it also made them hold onto things more reliably.

I'll also just repeat my 3 feedback from the other thread:

Spoiler

Turbulence:

I think this ability should function basically as it does now, but be converted into a toggle with no up-front cost. Instead it would have an energy drain mechanic (that, again, doesn't disable any form of energy regen or gain). 

I would also make it so that this no longer scales with range in terms of the size of the shield around herself so that negative range no longer completely negates the ability. In order to make the Jet Stream augment more useful as a group buff, it should either give the buff in affinity range for as long as Turbulence is toggled on, or have a much larger base radius, independent of the bubble around Zephyr, modified by power range.

 

The idea would be that you could have a 3 that works the same and actually costs an identical amount of energy per time the shield is active as it does now. It would just be far more convenient as a toggle so you didn't have to constantly look down into the corner at a timer or wait for the animation to end to re-cast it. You wouldn't randomly die as it fell off and had to be re-cast (which, no, is not a meaningful skill check, it's just annoying). It also would not disable any form of energy regeneration or gain the way some major channeled abilities do. Bare minimum, the negative range rendering her 3 non functional or unreliable needs to be changed. I tested it in the Sim. It's still a problem. 

In my view she has two useful abilities (1 and 3) that could still use QoL improvements and two clunky abilities that randomly toss things around in a counterproductive and obnoxious way that could use some more significant modifications. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

Hey, thanks for your feedback, however... a lot of it was debated about and discarded in threads over the last year.

For example, this one comes up in every second thread;

2 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

Just make it proc a divebomb like effect when you collide with any surface

Which is mostly pointless. There are times when you want a Dive Bomb, and all the other times when you don't. Dive Bomb has a specific function of being able to engage a group of enemies, you dive in dealing damage and knocking down enemies. There is no other occasion when you want Dive Bomb's explosion to happen, it's just awkward and would completely remove the possibility of making Tailwind flow into Parkour.

Not to mention that if it was changed this way, then more angle detection would have to apply because of the times when you clip a wall, geometry or enemies that you don't want to proc an explosion on.

It's an idea, just not one that I can see people enjoying for longer than it takes for the initial 'wow, explosions everywhere' impression to wear off, and then start annoying them when they want to use the ability to go from point A to point B faster.

Much the same as this:

2 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

I think this ability should function basically as it does now, but be converted into a toggle with no up-front cost. Instead it would have an energy drain mechanic (that, again, doesn't disable any form of energy regen or gain).

There is no energy drain mechanic on this, not one that would not be bound by the Drain regen prevention, that would not make it extremely detrimental the more enemies you're against.

My question to you is, if not drain over time, then what would you have it toggle off? Projectiles deflected? Distance travelled? You have to have it count something in order for the ability to have a cost at all, and anything except the duration of the cast will cost more than the current Duration based cast can cost you.

With a good build for 40+ seconds of Turbulence, I can mod for an ability cost of 23 energy, currently, I may not get the better duration of 50+ seconds, or strength for Jet Stream, but I can make Turbulence cost 0.5 energy per second, in equivalent spending. And no drain function will cost less than that, unless you're not encountering whatever it is that your ability actually drains by.

Basically, I've done the maths, and so have dozens of people like me over four years of mechanic changes in other frames, and the base Duration of the current Turbulence allows for modding to make this existing ability better than any other energy cost mechanic put in. Not by much, but enough that any other method would be a nerf. If Turbulence didn't have the long base duration it does, then maybe the other functions would be better, but as it stands the current incarnation is better.

What would really prevent the issue of having to switch to a drain would be re-casting, especially now that Chroma's Vex Armour can be recast... so that you can just refresh it whenever you're getting low without the need to back off, re-cast from safety, and waste a around ten seconds of play overall every time, meaning if you count the time hiding, recasting and then jumping back out, Turbulence is in use for anywhere between 5 to 10 seconds less than the current Duration would say.

2 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

In my view she has two useful abilities (1 and 3) that could still use QoL improvements and two clunky abilities that randomly toss things around in a counterproductive and obnoxious way that could use some more significant modifications. 

With this change she now has four potentially really useful abilities now. 1 does toss things together, is clunky, you're not wrong. QoL improvements there can fix that. 2 is actually pretty good, just not good enough and will be amazing if DEScott follows through. 3 is one of the most balanced, checked and well maintained casts in the history of the game (it's literally the most updated ability in Warframe history, changing and reworking how it does its bullet-deflection and so on). And 4 is nearly good enough, and just needs the update to go a little further, make it actually desirable instead of just something that's there...

It's all opinion based, and I can't blame you for having a different one to me, no harm there.

Consider, though, that a lot of people have talked this through before DE even went near her for an update, and talked about this nearly exclusively for some time, and there are quite a lot of considerations that they came up with in that time that people often don't when they think of a great idea for the first time, or haven't been part of those discussions.

So...

In short? Good thoughts, just not good enough to change the opinions here.

[EchoesOfRain]

6 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Thanks for all the responses @Arkenai7, @Caelward, @Nytrax, @aerelm, @EchoesOfRain and @Paradoxbomb I've got a little update for you:

  Reveal hidden contents

So we should have something a little more fun to look at next week ^^

Ooh, that alone is a small victory! can't wait to see what happens!

 

27 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Which is mostly pointless. There are times when you want a Dive Bomb, and all the other times when you don't. Dive Bomb has a specific function of being able to engage a group of enemies, you dive in dealing damage and knocking down enemies. There is no other occasion when you want Dive Bomb's explosion to happen, it's just awkward and would completely remove the possibility of making Tailwind flow into Parkour.

 

As long as the collision detection isn't too big I think it'd be fine. It would let players engage from a more distant, horizontal angle rather than being forced to go directly above them to Divebomb. Heck, I'd even be fine with the Divebomb affect as long as Zephyr uses Tailwind and hits just the ground. Having it work on any surface is just to kill Zephyr ramming her face into walls and being stuck there. I don't see why it couldn't flow into parkour that way either, as long as they don't force her into an animation after hitting a wall.

[Terrornaut]

9 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Thanks for all the responses @Arkenai7, @Caelward, @Nytrax, @aerelm, @EchoesOfRain and @Paradoxbomb I've got a little update for you:

  Hide contents

So we should have something a little more fun to look at next week ^^

Hope!

I was just waiting for this thread before posting my own. I have more hope for my second favorite frame than I do Ember and the inability to place her well into a role without some well orchestrated freakery. The charge times on both these frames are horrible and not cost effective for the time they require, that's something DE needs to dial back.

 

I actually liked Divebomb vortex with large range for the things you could do with it. This new augment for tailwind...I haven't had the chance to do extensive testing and practicing with it but TW was so difficult to aim and 'gather stacks' it didn't seem worthwhile.

Also does multiple 2 blasts increase ragdoll range or time down, or is it purely just more 'damage'? This just seems like an aoe soulpunch that, while not impressive in any way, could still be useful as an escape/defense move. If it was instead very fast or if it deflected and reflected projectiles along its path, that might be worthwhile, but otherwise...after so many beautiful threads, this?

 

I kind of feel like they only really looked at frame threads when they were ready to start adjusting stuff. I can't be mad about that of course, they have a lot of work to do, but, there was just so much reasonable high quality thought suggested and so often, I dunno.

But that acknowledgement is hope that they are dropping this and moving on.  Zeph still has a chance!

Very happy with tornado applying damage to all caught, and it does seem to hold longer sometimes, but I do wish it was 'actually' controllable.

[Wolfchild07]

Her Tailwind is a big one for me.

Let us hold her 1 to activate 'free flight'. You keep moving in the direction you're looking in until you release it, and it costs more energy the longer you hold it.

Tap 1 to hover. Make it last longer and be affected by duration. While hovering, you can hold 1 (activate 'free flight') to move in the direction you're looking in and doesn't end hover (until the duration expires).

Can only hover once per take off, just like switching to operator mode in the air.

[Caelward]

I wonder if the stationary Hover could be considered to be altered by an Augment, I know some people like it. A choice might be nice.

[Borg1611]

6 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Which is mostly pointless. There are times when you want a Dive Bomb, and all the other times when you don't. Dive Bomb has a specific function of being able to engage a group of enemies, you dive in dealing damage and knocking down enemies. There is no other occasion when you want Dive Bomb's explosion to happen, it's just awkward and would completely remove the possibility of making Tailwind flow into Parkour.

Not to mention that if it was changed this way, then more angle detection would have to apply because of the times when you clip a wall, geometry or enemies that you don't want to proc an explosion on.

It's an idea, just not one that I can see people enjoying for longer than it takes for the initial 'wow, explosions everywhere' impression to wear off, and then start annoying them when they want to use the ability to go from point A to point B faster.

It's not mostly pointless. I think in practice it'd be far less annoying than having to constantly manually cancel it when it could be automatically cancelled much faster whenever you hit a surface. If you imagine you're in a ship with narrow corridors you'd have to be constantly mashing keys to avoid hitting surfaces. That's not any more useful or functional than just colliding with the wall and quickly moving on. 

I would be fine with it just auto cancelling and not procing an explosion as well, but I think the added explosion would allow you to get more use out of the damage component of the ability in tighter spaces where you're not going to be flying up and divebombing ever.

The damage output and scaling are also something that likely would become irrelevant at higher levels but they seem very random in who they decide to give useful damage scaling to. 

edit: For clarity: I don't think tailwind should count enemies as a surface in terms of where it would automatically stop the animation and/or cause a divebomb. She should still be able to tailwind through enemies. By surface I just mean walls, rock faces etc. 

6 hours ago, Thaylien said:

There is no energy drain mechanic on this, not one that would not be bound by the Drain regen prevention, that would not make it extremely detrimental the more enemies you're against.

My question to you is, if not drain over time, then what would you have it toggle off? Projectiles deflected? Distance travelled? You have to have it count something in order for the ability to have a cost at all, and anything except the duration of the cast will cost more than the current Duration based cast can cost you.

With a good build for 40+ seconds of Turbulence, I can mod for an ability cost of 23 energy, currently, I may not get the better duration of 50+ seconds, or strength for Jet Stream, but I can make Turbulence cost 0.5 energy per second, in equivalent spending. And no drain function will cost less than that, unless you're not encountering whatever it is that your ability actually drains by.

Basically, I've done the maths, and so have dozens of people like me over four years of mechanic changes in other frames, and the base Duration of the current Turbulence allows for modding to make this existing ability better than any other energy cost mechanic put in. Not by much, but enough that any other method would be a nerf. If Turbulence didn't have the long base duration it does, then maybe the other functions would be better, but as it stands the current incarnation is better.

What would really prevent the issue of having to switch to a drain would be re-casting, especially now that Chroma's Vex Armour can be recast... so that you can just refresh it whenever you're getting low without the need to back off, re-cast from safety, and waste a around ten seconds of play overall every time, meaning if you count the time hiding, recasting and then jumping back out, Turbulence is in use for anywhere between 5 to 10 seconds less than the current Duration would say.

I think you completely miss the point. The cost would literally be 100% identical over time. It would be a drain per second that matched the current cost over time. It would be extremely easy to set the drain per second and have it scale with both efficiency and duration so that the cost per time turns out to be an identical value. The entire point has nothing to do with changing the cost, it's the convenience of not having to re-cast it every time it expires. 

Re-casting while active would be a simpler solution (though not quite as convenient as a toggle that didn't turn off regen) and is something I've asked for myself. It's really something that should happen to numerous abilities in the game. Not being able to re-cast while active it an outdated concept that should have been removed for 99% of abilities in the game a long time ago.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Borg1611

[Caelward]

14 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

It's not mostly pointless. I think in practice it'd be far less annoying than having to constantly manually cancel it when it could be automatically cancelled much faster whenever you hit a surface. If you imagine you're in a ship with narrow corridors you'd have to be constantly mashing keys to avoid hitting surfaces. That's not any more useful or functional than just colliding with the wall and quickly moving on.

This argument tends to flip back and forth between two rather attractive ideas. The genesis of it is that no likes planting Zephyr into a wall with an overextended tailwind. It breaks flow and looks ridiculous, which damages the whole power fantasy of the setting.

The first proposed solution is to have a dive-bomb effect whenever you hit a surface. I was an advocate of this at one point as well. Now I just consider it an option, but I'm uncertain if it would be best.

The second is to have Zephyr transition into regular movement so as soon as you hit a surface you changed right into the run animation, or started wall hopping or given a harsh angle you'd latch onto the wall for a moment. Anything that would allow you to without pause resume moving because moving is what many Zephyr players love to do. I am firmly in the camp of "I never want to stop moving if I don't have to".

 

"Why not both?" would be nice, but that probably comes down to balance issues.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

I think you completely miss the point

Ah, no, I see now. But you miss the real point; DE don't do energy drain per second that doesn't interrupt energy regen. If they did, then energy regen would cause the effect to be net neutral or net positive.

And your point about the cost-per-second being the same as the current is confusing as I just pointed out that the cost can be altered to be more efficient than any Drain (Energy is never taken in integers less than 1, so the most efficient you could make Turbulence is 1 per tick, usually one tick is a second unless you have very, very high duration, and so the equivalent of being able to make it 0.5 per second with just Efficiency is... you see where I'm coming from) so all I can say is that the argument is moot unless DE ever creates a 'drain' ability that doesn't drain if you have energy regen functions on.

As for Dive Bomb's explosions... I'm with @Caelward. Actually, now that I think about it, I recall that he was my debate partner for much of this same discussion and this idea of free movement and clean transition between ability and movement is the result of us agreeing ^^

[Caelward]

Just as a complete left field tangent.

@Thaylien

Did you ever play Nier:Automata?

There's a weapon that you can pick up in that game that gives the character a nifty blue blink dash. I wish I had that as part of Zephyr's passive. Turn all her dodge rolls into blink dashes. Or give me an arcane that did that... hmmm....

Edited February 11, 2018 by Caelward

[Borg1611]

32 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

But you miss the real point; DE don't do energy drain per second that doesn't interrupt energy regen.

That's just an assumption, they easily could. They try new things all the time, there's no point arguing that they would never do it. They actually already did with one of Equinox's abilities, the 3 I believe. 

32 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Energy is never taken in integers less than 1, so the most efficient you could make Turbulence is 1 per tick

Yea, I don't think that's accurate at all. Even if the display only shows integers, you could still have fractional drain just as you have fractional costs. We deal with fractional components of costs and restores all the time already. I'm confident their programmers can handle numbers with decimals. 

According the wiki you can get Equinox's 3 drain to as low as .13 energy per second (edit: this ability is per enemy, but demonstrates that you can have a below 1 drain that doesn't disable regen already). So I guess there goes that theory. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Borg1611

[Xrkr]

1 hour ago, Borg1611 said:

According the wiki you can get Equinox's 3 drain to as low as .13 energy per second (edit: this ability is per enemy, but demonstrates that you can have a below 1 drain that doesn't disable regen already). So I guess there goes that theory. 

When enemies are in the area of effect, the drain takes place, stopping energy regen. When enemies are not in the area of effect, the regen resumes. Turbulence works very differently from Pacify. To make it work like that, the energy drain would need to be based on whether or not you're being shot at which, in many cases, is all the damn time. So no regen until you take some other cover, then we might as well have what we have now. Allowing us to recast it while active would allow us to remain out of cover indefinitely so long as we have the energy to recast. But, then if DE wanted us to have perma-Turbulence, they would have made it her passive. I'll settle for a slightly faster cast.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Xrkr

[Borg1611]

42 minutes ago, Xrkr said:

When enemies are in the area of effect, the drain takes place, stopping energy regen. When enemies are not in the area of effect, the regen resumes. Turbulence works very differently from Pacify. To make it work like that, the energy drain would need to be based on whether or not you're being shot at which, in many cases, is all the damn time. So no regen until you take some other cover, then we might as well have what we have now. Allowing us to recast it while active would allow us to remain out of cover indefinitely so long as we have the energy to recast. But, then if DE wanted us to have perma-Turbulence, they would have made it her passive. I'll settle for a slightly faster cast.

You could be right, I don't use Equinox very often. I was going by the wiki description which states:

Quote

 

Energy Siphon is not deactivated while enemies are within Pacify's aura.

Energy can still be gained from Energy Orbs, Limbo's Rift Plane, Trinity's Energy Vampire, and Energy Restores while enemies are within the aura.

 

Even if that's not how it works, it doesn't mean they couldn't change it so that some drains simply counter energy coming in rather than completely blocking it. Most drains would actually make more sense that way. The disabling of energy regen has always been a poor mechanic that wasn't needed. 

I would settle for a faster cast and preferably the ability to cast while active to prevent potential one-shots in the downtime window, but it really doesn't make the ability any more interesting or compelling to have to re-cast it every so often. 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Borg1611