What role does Ember fullfill?

[lexandritte]

Ember is my infested exterminator and star chart / void fissure / syndicate missions farmer. If you couple her with Ignis Wraith, you can clean out rooms much faster and thorough than any other frame in the game. Flash Accelerant + Jat Kusar melts even high level grineer in seconds. 

Heat as element might not deal the best damage, but it still stunlocks enemies with procs. Even without Fire Quake, if you set everything on fire, nothing is shooting at you. 

 

And she absolutely dominated Plague Star. 

 

[Hypernaut1]

People consider her a low level warframe, whereas I consider her a high skill Warframe. If you know how to play with her, you can indeed do high level content. Problem is, you can't just WoF and call it a day. You need to stay mobile, buff your damage and watch your energy. She's not meant to waltz through high end content without consideration to modding and general skill. She's one of my favorite warframes because her abilities don't completely do the job for you. 

For me, she was nt really handicapped that much. I simply recast WoF. It's not that hard. But now I can also use her 1 for cc and fire blast to further amp my damage. To me she was buffed. I also appreciate the increase in WoF damage. The range at Max strength isn't THAT bad to me and indeed useful. It was never reliable long range cc to begin with anyway.

If you were ever TRULY good with Ember, she wasnt really nerfed that hard and is actually even better now. Those that simply used her for the utility of toggling her WoF were hit the hardest. 

DE did a good thing by killing that brain dead playstyle.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[i_Lex]

2 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

You don't really know what Ember can do and you have not tried other builds or tried to find anything other than someone's aforementioned circlejerk of youtubers about meme Ember.  Must have been Taiiat, who I sometimes strongly agree with and sometimes completely disagree with.

Yes I do, I have also used other builds with her. especially using her cc alot and the fact she can stun almost all enemies is what I find amazing. This does not however mean that she is viable in late game. This is the point I'm stressing and somehow you fail to see it. 

Using her with high multipliers will go to the cost of something else, and that other thing bieng mostly efficiency. And the last thing I want is a depleted frame... Energy pizzas you say? Yeah no, eventhough some may preffer to use those. I'd rather not want to rely on constantly using energy pads just to have a nice and enjoyable gameplay.

[Shockness]

4 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

^^^^^

This pretty much

You don't really know what Ember can do and you have not tried other builds or tried to find anything other than someone's aforementioned circlejerk of youtubers about meme Ember.  Must have been Taiiat, who I sometimes strongly agree with and sometimes completely disagree with.

Agreed with the last part, laughably disagree with the first part.

I can clear most sorties where things need to die with complete ease with Ember and top damage and kill charts in the presence of other frames, consistently with Ember. I have for a long time, sometimes even when reduced elemental damage is a restrictor.

I've built Ember to multiply damage by 8x, before forced ground finishers taking melee damage before combo to 12x.  Built her in other ways too.  In the end, if you aren't building corrosive status with some heat, then yeah, you will never see what damage Ember can do outside of infested. I play mostly against corrupted and vastly against grineer when possible, and Ember with a couple clicks inside 2s or well under does to level 120s what she does to level 20.  She just isn't safe, and now, she's much less safe for more energy with reduced kill efficiency+damage to WoF.  Yes the power goes up to double damage, but at half range, you're doing less damage to less targets because you can't spread it and fire procs which do a good amount of damage when boosted on armor stripped targets.

If you aren't stripping armor with all the ways to strip armor in WF's life at this point in time, then you have no interest in using Ember as damage and have no need to complain in that direction.  There are too many ways to strip armor and a warframe kit is more than just its 1-4 abilities, its all your customizable tools in your loadout.

Do you care to sent me your loadout? I'm open for builds that could be efficient and fun.

I do know you can mod Ember to be pretty damaging, but don't tell me it won't make her into an energy needy warframe, I don't like to shade other warframes, but Mesa for example can be extremely good dps wise, while keeping good energy efficiency AND allowing her to have 95% dmg reduction with a long duration. Don't tell me Ember is anywhere near that.

[polarity]

She's a glass-cannon, best used for focusing on hard targets.  If you pile on the power strength, then you can use accelerant a lot like Banshee's Sonar, except the debuff applies to the whole target, not just weak-points.  It also comes with its own short-duration CC, and a casting speed buff that lets you weaken the hard targets and clear surrounding trash with Ring of Fire.  You're then free to finish off what's left with weapons.

She is a DPS, but it's focused to one target at a time, not whole-room-AoE.

If there is anything wrong with Ember, it's her reliance on a single damage type which is very weak when armor scaling comes into play.  Just about every other damage type either inclused some form of more reliable CC, damage that stacks with additional procs, or affects armor/health/shields as a percentage.  Also it's only become weaker as less are slotting Corrosive Projection, in favor of slash/viral builds, or to use Energy Siphon to make up for losing focus based energy regen.  My fix for fire being weak?  Have additional procs of fire ignore increasingly amounts of an enemy's armor (it's armor, not insulation, so heat will get through it eventually, and quicker when the heat is stronger).

That said an accelerant Ember is perfectly viable up to level 100, if you're using her to focus fire the most dangerous targets (ancients, bombards, nullifiers, heavy gunners), and leaving the trash to the rest of the group.  You move around a lot to avoid damage, and to put yourself right on top of enemies before stunning them with accelerant, and use a weapon that has a massive burst damage, if a short range (tigris/hek).  It takes 2 rounds from a rad damage tigris prime to headshot kill a level 100 corrupted bombard, but only one with fire damage, when it's debuffed with accelerant.

The main build I use has 67/105/100/254% duration/efficiency/range/strength (before Growing Power/Energy Conversion/Flash Accelerant power bonuses), as well as Handspring.  I also have one that drops handspring and Primed Continuity for 299% power, accepting that the accelerant debuff isn't going to last any longer than it takes to empty the magazine from a Hek or Tigris.

These builds take skill to play.  You can't rely on an always on CC that lets you crawl around on the floor like you do in every other FPS game, you actually have to make an effort to use parkour, and avoid every bit of damage you can through both skill and situational awareness.  You have to know where different types of enemies are, so you can single out the single biggest threat to the group, get right in its face, stun and debuff it, kill it, and then get the hell out of there, before the stun wears off everything near it.

When you can really play this game, (instead of having it played for you by a single button press both damaging and CCing half the map with no effort at all on your part), you can get by with a 2 second stun and +1000% damage, and make a glass cannon build work.

I've always loved Ember, and still do, because she's an absolute adrenaline rush to play, that actually challenges the person playing her.

If there was one single thing I'd do to make that more accessible to other players, it would be to change her utterly useless passive to give her some additional damage avoidance, if she's performing a lot of actions (movement/abilities/attacking) in quick succession.

Edited February 14, 2018 by polarity

[Shockness]

6 minutes ago, lexandritte said:

Ember is my infested exterminator and star chart / void fissure / syndicate missions farmer. If you couple her with Ignis Wraith, you can clean out rooms much faster and thorough than any other frame in the game. Flash Accelerant + Jat Kusar melts even high level grineer in seconds. 

Heat as element might not deal the best damage, but it still stunlocks enemies with procs. Even without Fire Quake, if you set everything on fire, nothing is shooting at you. 

 

And she absolutely dominated Plague Star. 

 

This just confirms that Ember atm is just a DPS viable for infested or low level content, a warframe should not be limited to a certain build of mods and weapons to be viable.

[Shockness]

8 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

People consider her a low level warframe, whereas I consider her a high skill Warframe. If you know how to play with her, you can indeed do high level content. Problem is, you can't just WoF and call it a day. You need to stay mobile, buff your damage and watch your energy. She's not meant to waltz through high end content without consideration to modding and general skill. She's one of my favorite warframes because her abilities don't completely do the job for you. 

For me, she was nt really handicapped that much. I simply recast WoF. It's not that hard. But now I can also use her 1 for cc and fire blast to further amp my damage. To me she was buffed. I also appreciate the increase in WoF damage. The range at Max strength isn't THAT bad to me and indeed useful. It was never reliable long range cc to begin with anyway.

If you were ever TRULY good with Ember, she wasnt really nerfed that hard and is actually even better now. Those that simply used her for the utility of toggling her WoF were hot the hardest. 

Not saying I'm a good Ember, but if what you say is true, being a 'good' Ember wouldn't even make her as good as another warframe who's not doing her/his best.

If you've read my post, I said I've never played Ember before the update, so in my experience I can't say if shes better or worse, I'm just talking about how she is now in my eyes and she is not a fun and efficient frame to play, playing her feels more like a chore than anything else.

[Hypernaut1]

4 minutes ago, Shockness said:

This just confirms that Ember atm is just a DPS viable for infested or low level content, a warframe should not be limited to a certain build of mods and weapons to be viable.

No, it confirms she's not made for players that just want to pick up and play and kill tons of miobs with ease

[Terrornaut]

10 minutes ago, lexandritte said:

Ember is my infested exterminator and star chart / void fissure / syndicate missions farmer. If you couple her with Ignis Wraith, you can clean out rooms much faster and thorough than any other frame in the game. Flash Accelerant + Jat Kusar melts even high level grineer in seconds. 

Heat as element might not deal the best damage, but it still stunlocks enemies with procs. Even without Fire Quake, if you set everything on fire, nothing is shooting at you. 

 

And she absolutely dominated Plague Star. 

 

Confirmed jat kusar, even without armor stripping and a high multiplier on accell that thing will clear level 100 heavies by the time you get up combo counter.

10 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

People consider her a low level warframe, whereas I consider her a high skill Warframe. If you know how to play with her, you can indeed do high level content. Problem is, you can't just WoF and call it a day. You need to stay mobile, buff your damage and watch your energy. She's not meant to waltz through high end content without consideration to modding and general skill. She's one of my favorite warframes because her abilities don't completely do the job for you. 

For me, she was nt really handicapped that much. I simply recast WoF. It's not that hard. But now I can also use her 1 for cc and fire blast to further amp my damage. To me she was buffed. I also appreciate the increase in WoF damage. The range at Max strength isn't THAT bad to me and indeed useful. It was never reliable long range cc to begin with anyway.

If you were ever TRULY good with Ember, she wasnt really nerfed that hard and is actually even better now. Those that simply used her for the utility of toggling her WoF were hot the hardest. 

The nauts have appeared and agree.

6 minutes ago, i_Lex said:

Yes I do, I have also used other builds with her. especially using her cc alot and the fact she can stun almost all enemies is what I find amazing. This does not however mean that she is viable in late game. This is the point I'm stressing and somehow you fail to see it. 

Using her with high multipliers will go to the cost of something else, and that other thing bieng mostly efficiency. And the last thing I want is a depleted frame... Energy pizzas you say? Yeah no, eventhough some may preffer to use those. I'd rather not want to rely on constantly using energy pads just to have a nice and enjoyable gameplay.

Pre nerf, running with -efficiency or -duration, I never had energy problems.

 

I'll pm my build in a video, is long, but probably the most comprehensive explanation of ember and dps out there afaik.

[Shockness]

7 minutes ago, polarity said:

She's a glass-cannon, best used for focusing on hard targets.  If you pile on the power strength, then you can use accelerant a lot like Banshee's Sonar, except the debuff applies to the whole target, not just weak-points.  It also comes with its own short-duration CC, and a casting speed buff that lets you weaken the hard targets and clear surrounding trash with Ring of Fire.  You're then free to finish off what's left with weapons.

She is a DPS, but it's focused to one target at a time, not whole-room-AoE.

If there is anything wrong with Ember, it's her reliance on a single damage type which is very weak when armor scaling comes into play.  Just about every other damage type either inclused some form of more reliable CC, damage that stacks with additional procs, or affects armor/health/shields as a percentage.  Also it's only become weaker as less are slotting Corrosive Projection, in favor of slash/viral builds, or to use Energy Siphon to make up for losing focus based energy regen.  My fix for fire being weak?  Have additional procs of fire ignore increasingly amounts of an enemy's armor (it's armor, not insulation, so heat will get through it eventually, and quicker when the heat is stronger).

That said an accelerant Ember is perfectly viable up to level 100, if you're using her to focus fire the most dangerous targets (ancients, bombards, nullifiers, heavy gunners), and leaving the trash to the rest of the group.  You move around a lot to avoid damage, and to put yourself right on top of enemies before stunning them with accelerant, and use a weapon that has a massive burst damage, if a short range (tigris/hek).  It takes 2 rounds from a rad damage tigris prime to headshot kill a level 100 corrupted bombard, but only one with fire damage, when it's debuffed with accelerant.

By what you're saying, Ember became instead of a 4 to win frame a 2 to win frame? I don't see how spamming Accelerant because it's the only viable thing in high level is fun gameplay at all.

I also don't really see how Ember is a one target at a time DPS, it's clearly an aoe orientated frame.

[Shockness]

4 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

No, it confirms she's not made for players that just want to pick up and play and kill tons of miobs with ease

Alright you've got no idea what you're talking about.

[Hypernaut1]

10 minutes ago, Shockness said:

Not saying I'm a good Ember, but if what you say is true, being a 'good' Ember wouldn't even make her as good as another warframe who's not doing her/his best.

If you've read my post, I said I've never played Ember before the update, so in my experience I can't say if shes better or worse, I'm just talking about how she is now in my eyes and she is not a fun and efficient frame to play, playing her feels more like a chore than anything else.

I mean... So what? It's not a competition. Not to me at least. I can easily slice through enemies with Excalibur, but sometimes I want to burn them with Ember. 

I can say this, when I kick a$$ with Ember in a tough sortie, it's far more satisfying to me than if I just sleep walked through it with a Frost or Mesa. That's why I like Ember. I can take pride in knowing it was modding, skill and decision making that got me through a tough mission. And she was always like that. 

Sometimes I don't want to try that hard, and I will choose another frame to just get it over with. They're nothing wrong with that either. Not saying shes the best, but there IS a place in warframe for high skill frames. 

If you learn to play her, then it can be very rewarding. I wouldn't give up on the frame.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Shockness]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I mean... So what? It's not a competition. Not to me at least. I can easily slice through enemies with Excalibur, but sometimes I want to burn them with Ember. 

I can say this, when I kick a$$ with Ember in a tough sortie, it's far more satisfying to me than if I just sleep walked through it with a Frost or Mesa. That's why I like Ember. I can take pride in knowing it was modding, skill and decision making that got me through a tough mission. And she was always like that. 

Sometimes I don't want to try that hard, and I will choose another frame to just get it over with. They're nothing wrong with that either. Not saying shes the best, but there IS a place in warframe for high skill frames. 

Care to share your build?

[Hypernaut1]

30 minutes ago, Shockness said:

By what you're saying, Ember became instead of a 4 to win frame a 2 to win frame? I don't see how spamming Accelerant because it's the only viable thing in high level is fun gameplay at all.

I also don't really see how Ember is a one target at a time DPS, it's clearly an aoe orientated frame.

See, that's your problem. It's not about "spamming". It's stunning enemies, enhancing your damage, pushing them back with fireblast, or dropping 5 of them with WoF, or spin melee into a few with added damage, or just simply escaping. Ember is a highly active playstyle. You have to constantly be making decisions to  stay alive while also going on the offensive. You don't get to use an ability and just do nothing with Ember. Personally, I feel most CC should be closer to accelerant in the way that it's there to give you a moment, not completely disable the enemy.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Shockness]

9 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

See, that's your problem. It's not about "spamming". It's stunning enemies, enhancing your damage, pushing them back with fireblast, or dropping 5 of them with WoF, or spin melee into a few with added damage, or just simply escaping. Ember is a highly active playstyle. You have to constantly be making decisions to  stay alive while also going on the offensive. You don't get to got an ability and just do nothing with Ember. Personally, I feel most CC should be closer to accelerant in the way that it's there to give you a moment, not completely disable the enemy.

Look, I really like to experience gameplay in a fun way, warframe came a long way into this with lore etc.

When I play Ember, a frame of fire, I expect to unleash fire and cause damage, it would create fun and interesting gameplay.

But instead as you suggest, you need to cast this ability - wich barely looks like it has anything to do with fire - in order to kill enemies or stay alive.

Fun gameplay would be to see flames and see them burn, not to stun them for 2 seconds every time.

 

I'm not only asking to make Ember a better DPS, I'm mainly asking to make Ember a fun warframe to play with interesting abilities. And not a warframe where you have to recast abilities for every 20 meters you run.

Something that comes up in my mind is an ability, wich is not a channeled ability and does not follow your frame, that sets the world on fire for a certain duration in a certain range and does damage to everyone in that range, something like Fire Blast but where the ring is really the whole range and not 2 meters long.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Shockness

[polarity]

And most importantly of all this game does not have ultimates.  You have four abilities, and the 4th one is not automatically the most powerful one available to you.

Don't assume that just because other games unlock abilities in increasing order of end game viability, that all games do.

Edited February 14, 2018 by polarity

[Hypernaut1]

25 minutes ago, Shockness said:

Look, I really like to experience gameplay in a fun way, warframe came a long way into this with lore etc.

When I play Ember, a frame of fire, I expect to unleash fire and cause damage, it would create fun and interesting gameplay.

But instead as you suggest, you need to cast this ability - wich barely looks like it has anything to do with fire - in order to kill enemies or stay alive.

Fun gameplay would be to see flames and see them burn, not to stun them for 2 seconds every time.

 

I'm not only asking to make Ember a better DPS, I'm mainly asking to make Ember a fun warframe to play with interesting abilities. And not a warframe where you have to recast abilities for every 20 meters you run.

Something that comes up in my mind is an ability, wich is not a channeled ability and does not follow your frame, that sets the world on fire for a certain duration in a certain range and does damage to everyone in that range, something like Fire Blast but where the ring is really the whole range and not 2 meters long.

when they added the expanding wall of fire to fire blast, it made me feel more like an eximus. I enjoyed that. All of her other abilities sets enemies on fire too. 

I'm liking staying in the middle of fire blast for as long as I can to use the damage buff. Someone's the enemies are still getting up from the blast itself, so you get a few shots in. 

Like I said, it's not the easiest to use damage buff, but to me it's fun to use it effectively and get out of Dodge. It's finally given me a reason to stay inside the circle as long as I can. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[polarity]

• Find the biggest concentration of big, nasty enemies you can find.
• Launch yourself right into the middle of them* (Run?  Seriously?  You can't consider yourself good at a ninja game, if you still move everywhere on foot).
• While you're flying towards them, charge up a fireball, and release it just before you land.
• Let off Accelerant, and use its casting speed buff to cast both Ring of Fire, and WoF.
• Shoot whatever is left standing.
• Pick up energy orbs, turn off WoF, look for something else you want to hit right in the face.
  
  ^{* If you launched yourself into a nullifier bubble, shoot it right in the face the instant you get inside, and then cast accelerant as soon as you land.}

Edited February 14, 2018 by polarity

[Maka.Bones]

3 hours ago, Spectre-8 said:

Ember was always a warframe for farming low level missions 1-30 .

Nothing has changed in this regard , she is still useful for farming low level missions .

I think you mean "she can still passive kill anything below lvl 80* she just has less survivability now"

You're welcome :)

[Maka.Bones]

3 hours ago, Spectre-8 said:

You can play other warframes , it's not like you can't pick a different one .

Options are there , use them .

 

That's not the point though. 

It's like if your favorite color is green, so you go to the store to specifically buy a green shirt, but they don't have it in your size... Then the clerk says "but there are plenty of other colored shirts! Why don't you buy one in another color instead?" 

That's pretty much what you're saying.

[Maka.Bones]

3 hours ago, Spectre-8 said:

If everyone is a winner , nobody is .

That's a very poor outlook in things. It's also very untrue. 

 

Factories that make cheese, get whey as a bioroduct. Normally they'd dispose of it, as waste. However whey is high in protein, so nutritional companies purchase this "waste bioroduct" for cheap, to make protein powders with a higher concentration of protein. 

-the cheese company gets their waste taken care of, for them... And they get paid for it too

-protein manufacturing companies get an improved product, that they highly profit from

-athletes get a better source of high protein for low carbs/fat

 

In the above scenario, all parties involved *win* from the outcome. 

You should re-evaluate your perspective, and approach/attitude to "win/lose" situations. Someone doesn't have to lose, for someone else (or you) to win. (Although I'm not speaking about competitive sports here)

Edited February 14, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

@Shockness i completely get what you mean, and where you're coming from. Thank you for pretty much voicing my exact concerns/thoughts in a much more eloquent, and understandable way. 

I agree with absolutely everything you've said so far. You've said it in much better words than I could, so this is all I'll say lol. 

Thanks again lol

[lexandritte]

2 hours ago, Shockness said:

This just confirms that Ember atm is just a DPS viable for infested or low level content, a warframe should not be limited to a certain build of mods and weapons to be viable.

Right tool for the right job. I'll bring Mesa or Valk to clear endgame but they are too clunky compared to Ember cleaning skills in star chart. 

Ember is endgame viable if you try hard enough, but that can be said of at least half the frames in the game. Nothing is ever going to be as viable as meta kings like "Loki Master Race" or Chroma tanks. 

 

Last thing I want is homogenization of Warframes, where you can just pick anything and win everything. Right tool, right job. 

[TKDancer]

4 hours ago, Spectre-8 said:

You can play other warframes , it's not like you can't pick a different one .

Options are there , use them .

 

stop being a disingenuous nerd

 

people are here to talk about her issues, "go use another frame" isnt relevant to this discussion and u know it

[TKDancer]

1 minute ago, lexandritte said:

Right tool for the right job. I'll bring Mesa or Valk to clear endgame but they are too clunky compared to Ember cleaning skills in star chart. 

 

 

how is peace maker clunky?

 

also that argument falls apart when u add frames like octavia to the picture, or even gara as her splinter storm is currently a better WoF as despite having a low range it gives massive DR and increasing dmg