So sick of trading chat, why can't we get an auction house?

[ngrazer]

On 25.02.2018 at 2:40 AM, Shichibukai88 said:

warframe.market <- not sure why ppl arent using it until they do implement anything that comes even close.

Oh but we do. 

'user is ignoring you'.

Yup, you can't go AFK even for 15 minutes. 

So I hope DE will implement some sort of built-in auction house.

 

[Do_High_Go]

Look broadly here. DE makes money of the current trading system. How you will ask - from the ripped off kids.

Improperly spending more that you could have spent results in lack of plat earlier that usual, therefore increases the chance of the player purchasing some amount of Plat. Differences accumulate overtime causing the illusion of the need to purchase bigger bundles of plat. It is basic business model.

Due tho the above, AH cannot happen. It could be properly made, say GW2 style. That is many people put Items for sale for a price set from them, but the lowest is offered for selling first, and of course taking "Tax" for the service. Now that sounds like trading heaven to me, BUT that is low price favoring economy model, meaning if you put your stuff at cheap it will sell faster. Therefore comes the question - If some ignorant kid goes and buys smth that is averagely worth 100 plat for 300, he will be in need for 200 more plat than the statistically average buyer, right? But with proper Auction House, everyone will be average buyer. hence no additional income from purchases made from bad trades will happen.

The answer is not in the Auction, for it to be, the tax will be so high the people will revert back to the chat and sites in no time. DE needs to fix the chat, split the chat. I am not talking about making 10 000 tabs on the chat window, I mean migrating the trading section to a place where it can be segmented and sorted properly, Riven-Sellers, Riven-Byers, normal Sellers, normal Byers. Yes, admit it, one of the main reasons that the trade chat in-game is unusable is because it is overrun from 5 row messages of a mass of Riven traders(which exists due to the 15 riven basic cap but that is another case). Take the Riven trading in another tab and you will see how much more usable is the trade chat now. Of course the Riven linking and mentioning shall be prohibited in the regular chat and vice versa, so everything is in order.

Yes, the in-game system will stay dynamic, but at least it will be usable, a simple distillation of the riven traders and regular ones will do wonders, and keep that sweet bad trade money coming  ;)

[ngrazer]

@Do_High_Go The problem in not having an AH is that you can't properly trade with people from other time zones. Or even from your own time zone e.g. I'm willing to buy some specific Riven, and there is a person willing to sell that exact Riven, and both of us are from London in Canada. But oh well I can play only between 8 and 10 a.m. while the seller can play only between 1 and 3 p.m. 

This is the main problem of not having an AH for me, the fact that you actually need to live in the game so that you don't miss the moment when it comes (see my post above where the person wrote me while I was AFK and 15 minutes later he added me to ignored list), and not 'overpopulated' trading chat. You have chat filters for that thing which can help even if it's just a bit.

[PurplePoloPlayer]

I want to add my two plat as a new player with about 400 hours played. I have never had a problem using warframe.market. I can usually find a seller right away and I have never had any seller try to alter the price listed. My few sales have gone smoothly as well. 

I have picked up a great number of mods, most under five plat. My understanding is that they used to sell for more. An auction house would further decrease prices overall. Also, I will pay a couple of plat extra to deal with a seller that has a higher feedback rating. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by PurplePoloPlayer
Speling

[(XBOX)OneNastyNupe]

I've gotten  the "failed to connect to chat server" message since Thursday night when the network was tripping out for everyone around the time the twitch stream happened.  Since then, no chat whatsoever for me.  I went ahead and put in a ticket, but from the looks of what people on the board have been saying, looks like that was a waste of time.  An auction house would be a great idea after the experience I am currently having. 

[Spectre-8]

Warframe will never have AH .

[Do_High_Go]

ngrazer I see your point, I agree the real time trading is pain in the butt. I support the AH idea, however i dont think it will happen due to the reasons I listed above.

It is just highly unlikely DE will decide to spend money on developing something that will not bring them income. However there is an unused place in the front of the liset on the opposite side of the news, it can be utilized for a simple UI for listing items for sale, but who knows, they may have other plans for that spot.

In the end we have to cope with whatever we have available atm, rest is speculations until some developer from DE actually says a concrete opinion on that matter.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Do_High_Go

[PatternistSlave]

21 minutes ago, Do_High_Go said:

I agree the real time trading is pain in the butt. I support the AH idea, however i dont think it will happen due to the reasons I listed above.

It's not as simple as "DE makes more money this way.".  The more convenient a system becomes the more issues it creates.  For a small studio like DE these are issues they might not even have the manpower to handle assuming the slight added convenience is even worth it.  Even in the perfect, ideal scenario where players that would abuse convenience aren't an issue all that's accomplished is trading becomes less social and better at undermining gameplay.

[Urabask]

13 hours ago, (Xbox One)OneNastyNupe said:

I've gotten  the "failed to connect to chat server" message since Thursday night when the network was tripping out for everyone around the time the twitch stream happened.  Since then, no chat whatsoever for me.  I went ahead and put in a ticket, but from the looks of what people on the board have been saying, looks like that was a waste of time.  An auction house would be a great idea after the experience I am currently having. 

An AH can have similar problems except it usually affects the entire player population.

[Do_High_Go]

3 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

It's not as simple as "DE makes more money this way.".  The more convenient a system becomes the more issues it creates.  For a small studio like DE these are issues they might not even have the manpower to handle assuming the slight added convenience is even worth it.  Even in the perfect, ideal scenario where players that would abuse convenience aren't an issue all that's accomplished is trading becomes less social and better at undermining gameplay.

You got my point wrong sir. Manpower means that a developer has to be paid to do it, if their team is small, they need to outsource the project to complete it fast and not hinder other development. However, outsourcing is expensive too, hence my point:

4 hours ago, Do_High_Go said:

It is just highly unlikely DE will decide to spend money on developing something that will not bring them income.

The result will be the following if an AH is built - playerbase will trade more efficiently but huge amounts of funds would have sank in a QoL feature.

The AH could be constructed so players still can interact with each other first, example: You put your item for trading at a price, later a buyer appears. Said buyer can contact you in-game, if you are online, or trough the Warframe App by sending simple notification that you have a buyer waiting in-game. That is it, trading will remain the same but u wont have to live in the game to trade. I want to mention that there are other stuff that need to be tweaked for that system to work but my point still stands.

It is possible, BUT, unless we are all developers that work for free and DE agrees for us to make it, it will not happen.

2 hours ago, Urabask said:

An AH can have similar problems except it usually affects the entire player population.

This guy ^ has a point too. Devs have a list of issues sorted by severity. Severity is determined by the issue itself but also by the amount of people reporting it. Now, I have worked as Customer Support for games as well as Game Master, and i am obliged to inform you that the communication between support and devs is never perfect and far from Real Time(we have had cases where the devs just simply ignored the team reports for a week, while all of them were confirmed at work). Issues that are most severe at the plates of the devs are taken care first, some take less time some take days.

Lesson is: Just use external sites for trading if you dont want to live in the game.

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

10 minutes ago, Do_High_Go said:

Lesson is: Just use external sites for trading if you dont want to live in the game.

How many times do we have to say it?! Having to use third party sites is the hallmark of a fundamentally broken system! 

[Aggh]

On 3/2/2018 at 3:15 PM, Kaminariss said:

Its not that they DO it, they would need to be DOING it for like a month. You cant change market price permanently if you just do it once or twice.

 

First you cannot compare bitcoin market where every possible statistic is open to everone, second it was still a temporary change. Check how bitcoin charts looks for 1 year period and 5 year period.

 

Well, if you look closely at my posts I said that already:

So to summarize:

• Shifting prices is usually not worth the gain, it is usually a loss if you consider time = money
• Process would need to be repeated for specific period of time
• Requires a massive amount of money or time
• Is related to item market volume (the more popular item the more time/money you need to invest)

Wrong. If you plan to keep items in that group of 1000 players you would need to buy them after maximum of 1 minute after putting offer. That means:

• If you buy it too fast, no external observer as you call it will even see it.
• If you let it on for too long someone outside the group will buy it.

Considering how fast I sold Hydroid Prime sets It is safe to say if you put MPS for 50p they will dissapear faster than 20 seconds. If you dont believe me make a little experiment. Put yourself online in warframe.market (it is closer to AH than TC), put any popular item for minus 10p of the lowest price, and see how fast people will whisper to you.

If you put MPS for 10p, you will have a maximum of 3 seconds to buy it. Anyone who will see such price will click buy now. And BAM! item is gone.

What a rubbish. This is not exclusive for TC. It exists also on W.M and AH. Same as in real world.

None of the points you listed for TC is pro. Most of them are cons. Archaic model of trading that is long gone because it had so many flaws you can't image.

On the other hand [Trade] channel still exists in wow and it is used for goods that cannot be sold on AH or for trading LARGE quantities of common resources.

The fact that someone wants to sell something means value = price tag he put on it. If I have one Maiming Strike Im not gonna sell it because it has value greater than market price. If I had 3 maimings I could sell 2 because those 2 holds exact the same value as market price.

 

Now some more calculations:

1000 players vs 20 000 market users.

Asumming their average MR16.
MPS market price 60p, 200 daily volume.
Group of 1000 players wants to shift price to 50.

It is NOT SAFE to assume they would be able to keep buying their own goods of AH.
Each transactions costs them 5p and 2 trades (1 sell + 1 buy)
They can make (1000/2) * MR transactions per day = 8000 transactions within closed group.
Each day at least 50 (1/4 of market volume) transactions are needed.

So minimum of 50 and maximum of 8000. That is 250-40000p lost per day in taxes.
In a month you lose incredible amount of hours spent on AH and a MINIMUM of 7500plat just to shift market price of a SINGLE item by 10p.

The fact that you cannot back off in AH makes it invulnerable to tactics like spamming trade chat and ignoring buyers.

How many times do you have to be told that a Plat tax would violate state and federal gift certificate laws before you give up on the idea?

[Do_High_Go]

5 minutes ago, Aggh said:

How many times do you have to be told that a Plat tax would violate state and federal gift certificate laws before you give up on the idea?

Exactly what i said earlier, AH has to have a tax and it has to be high, and I see now it is not legal atm too :D

 

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

How many times do we have to say it?! Having to use third party sites is the hallmark of a fundamentally broken system! 

I agree to disagree. The system is broken? Which part of it? You can trade the same way u can gift items to friends for ayatan stars or trash mods, and it works fine. The chat? it is not broken, it is just inconvenient. Truth is, as long as third party options exist, DE won't do anything about it. Why bother resolving inconvenience for players, that have option to avoid said inconvenience already? See, it is self created circle - Third party trading sites exist because the current trading chat is inconvenient, yet due to their existence it will not be looked at as long as there are bigger issues to take care of!

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

34 minutes ago, Do_High_Go said:

Exactly what i said earlier, AH has to have a tax and it has to be high, and I see now it is not legal atm too :D

 

I agree to disagree. The system is broken? Which part of it? You can trade the same way u can gift items to friends for ayatan stars or trash mods, and it works fine. The chat? it is not broken, it is just inconvenient. Truth is, as long as third party options exist, DE won't do anything about it. Why bother resolving inconvenience for players, that have option to avoid said inconvenience already? See, it is self created circle - Third party trading sites exist because the current trading chat is inconvenient, yet due to their existence it will not be looked at as long as there are bigger issues to take care of!

We wouldn't need third party sites if the trade chat actually worked properly! That show that the current system is broken! As for gift certificate laws, those only cover real world transactions, so an in game AH is not illegal. Seriously...

[Do_High_Go]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

We wouldn't need third party sites if the trade chat actually worked properly! That show that the current system is broken! As for gift certificate laws, those only cover real world transactions, so an in game AH is not illegal. Seriously...

Allow me to self quote

23 hours ago, Do_High_Go said:

The answer is not in the Auction, for it to be, the tax will be so high the people will revert back to the chat and sites in no time. DE needs to fix the chat, split the chat. I am not talking about making 10 000 tabs on the chat window, I mean migrating the trading section to a place where it can be segmented and sorted properly, Riven-Sellers, Riven-Byers, normal Sellers, normal Byers. Yes, admit it, one of the main reasons that the trade chat in-game is unusable is because it is overrun from 5 row messages of a mass of Riven traders(which exists due to the 15 riven basic cap but that is another case). Take the Riven trading in another tab and you will see how much more usable is the trade chat now. Of course the Riven linking and mentioning shall be prohibited in the regular chat and vice versa, so everything is in order.

The system was not made with the Rivens and Arcanes in mind(yes Arcanes will be flooding the trade chat too soon), therefore it needs to be split to work properly again. Problem is(not for me tho) from my observations, people are more frustrated by the fact they need to be in-game to make the trade. I have no opinion on that since I don't mind it.

In essence, yes that is my point, if they fix the trade chat, which is easier and faster to be done, nobody will rant about Auction houses and third party sites. It doesn't take much, one additional tab at least could be made. Even splittinng the trade chat in two, Byers and Sellers will be better, not everyone knows about filtering.

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

1 minute ago, Do_High_Go said:

Allow me to self quote

The system was not made with the Rivens and Arcanes in mind(yes Arcanes will be flooding the trade chat too soon), therefore it needs to be split to work properly again. Problem is(not for me tho) from my observations, people are more frustrated by the fact they need to be in-game to make the trade. I have no opinion on that since I don't mind it.

In essence, yes that is my point, if they fix the trade chat, which is easier and faster to be done, nobody will rant about Auction houses and third party sites. It doesn't take much, one additional tab at least could be made. Even splittinng the trade chat in two, Byers and Sellers will be better, not everyone knows about filtering.

There is something we can agree on. All I really want is for this to become easily accessible for everybody. :)

[Kaminariss]

1 hour ago, Aggh said:

How many times do you have to be told that a Plat tax would violate state and federal gift certificate laws before you give up on the idea?

Im not aware of every country possible laws, If it is illegal in few states then disable AH for players in those states.

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

As for gift certificate laws, those only cover real world transactions, so an in game AH is not illegal. Seriously...

Also someone disagrees with you.

5 hours ago, Do_High_Go said:

It is just highly unlikely DE will decide to spend money on developing something that will not bring them income.

Tax that creates plat sink would bring them income. Currently the only plat sink is rushing things in foundry and market items.
Problems are different: lack of developers is real problem, impact on servers is real problem.

Splitting trade to Buy/Sell will not resolve problems current trade system has. It will just make it a bit more convenient. But then again you can't trade unless buyer/seller is online, spam will be there anyway, still need to meet in dojo. What I hate about current system even using warframe.market is that I need to stay still in dojo to sell things. If I respond few minutes later I get "ty i bought it already".

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

4 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

What I hate about current system even using warframe.market is that I need to stay still in dojo to sell things. If I respond few minutes later I get "ty i bought it already".

If you even get a response at all.

 

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

After 5 years of this game being released and developed I can say with a great degree of certainty that DE will not add an auction house in the game unless they expand their staff massively.

My impression is that DE lacks the fundamental knowledge and skill base internally to create an auction house system in the game, they would need to hire programmers and devs and they are committed to keeping their workforce small and lean. So unless we see a massive expansion of programmers working on the game I doubt we will ever see an Auction house.

The other issue alot of you are failing to comprehend is that having an auction house would require more granular control over drops rates and the economy or else people will quickly expose just how messed up the drop rates are in this game. DE will have to spend a inordinate amount of time playing whack a mole trying to stop every exploit to the RNG loot and the auction house or else break the economy completely. Which would require more workers and more infrastructure in the company.

 

However, I thought of something which would require little effort by DE to implement and keeps with the nature of the current system. Adapting Maroo's Bazaar to allow for Tenno/Clan Storefronts.

Instead of loading a Maroo instance and running around a room looking at items for sale, create a system by which a buyer can SEARCH for items being offered for sale by everyone engaged in  trading.  Maroo Bazaar isn't a level you can load and run around in, it just becomes an interface by which buyers and sellers can find each other and conduct business without the chaos of a realtime public chat window.

If you are a seller you go to Maroo's and enter the "seller's" instance. There you just see a room with a console when you activate it allows you to post items you have for sale and the price you want for them(plat or barter). You just select the item, put in your terms for it, and post.

As a buyer you enter Maroo's and go to the "buyer's Instance. Once gain you are in a room with just a console in which you access all the offers in the entire sellers instance. Instead of having to play around with a scrolling chat window where people list items in different and non standardized way, now you can look up any item you want and see if anyone is offering the item up for sale. Once you locate the item you can just message the seller and either agree to his terms or negotiate a price. Once you reach an agreement then the seller can initiate a trade right there and it works out like any other trade.

But one important detail I would like to include which would make this system even better. Create an API which allows third party sites to data mine the trades and create price checks for all items in the game, backed up by real world data not self reporting.

I feel this keeps in the spirit of how DE wants to handle trade, but creares a system by which the process of trading become a more rational and smoother experience.

Edited March 4, 2018 by (PS4)HurricaneHugo76

[PatternistSlave]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

We wouldn't need third party sites

We don't need third party sites.

[Do_High_Go]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

I feel this keeps in the spirit of how DE wants to handle trade, but creares a system by which the process of trading become a more rational and smoother experience.

Rational and smoother - yes. As much as I like your idea, and i see your point, it is even more work than implementing a simple UI that does the same in the ship itself.

You are talking about repurposing something established in the community. Yes it is a bazaar but it is not a shop or anything, Also your idea:

22 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

But one important detail I would like to include which would make this system even better. Create an API which allows third party sites to data mine the trades and create price checks for all items in the game, backed up by real world data not self reporting.

along  with the explanation above it leads to the same issue u talk about here:

22 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

The other issue alot of you are failing to comprehend is that having an auction house would require more granular control over drops rates and the economy or else people will quickly expose just how messed up the drop rates are in this game. DE will have to spend a inordinate amount of time playing whack a mole trying to stop every exploit to the RNG loot and the auction house or else break the economy completely. Which would require more workers and more infrastructure in the company.

Same rules apply and is even worse. Imagine being able to see data aggregated from the trades for certain item, not only the prices but at which prices which items get sold the most. This is worse than self reporting and will reveal more than just bad drop tables, it will become exploitable in no time.

Too complicated for DE, too much work for so little change. Good idea tho!

Edited March 4, 2018 by Do_High_Go

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

I see your point, but my only answer to that is the belief that DE can keep improving the game with the limited amount of staff and skillset is a wrong path to go down. They need to expand and add talent who have expertise in these types of thing, because if they keep increasing their player number the current system will not be effective enough and would just expose the problem with the game even more. At this point they need to start recruiting people with skills in player economies and trading system and come up with something that is better than the current system. And the sad thing is they are discouraging alot of players from spending plat because of the obtuseness and chaos of trade chat. I for one spend as little time as I need to in trade chat because I find the whole experience frustrating, boring, and unproductive. And almost every time I do go in there my suspicions are always confirmed because I spend more time looking to find the thing I want than actually buying it. Most time I only trade with clan mates because at least then you can have a more rational and reasonable conversation rather than trying to find that one posting with the item you are looking for.

That is why I think merely adapting Maroo's Bazaar would be alot simpler, require less overhead and dev time, and keep in the spirit of how DE wants to handle trade. As for the complexity of such a system, everything needed to implement a storefront is already in the game. The game is dominated by NPC store vendors. All they would have to do is adapt the market UI already in the game and merely allow people to search for items being offered for sale. The key improvement is to have a system where all items being currently offered for sale can be searched for, rather than waiting for someone to post it in a line of text on a scrolling chat screen.  Everything else works exactly as before, the seller still has to be online and you still have to reach out and message the seller.

I will even concede the fact that DE probably lacks a sophisticated player database to allow for a trading API to help players get a real price check outside of the game. But even just giving players the ability to see all the prices being offered for the items they are looking for in trade would help a long way to improving the economy.

Edited March 4, 2018 by (PS4)HurricaneHugo76

[(PSN)wulvyrn]

end game content like rivens need to be non-tradeable and a better system for players to have a sense of progression.  with the end of riven trading, will spell the end of pay to win.  kids do not need to spend 1000 plat for a riven nor should anyone else.  the game should focus on community not raping this player or that player.

[Do_High_Go]

Does anyone here submit their suggestions actually? Because this is what needs to be done. No staff member will sit and read 13 pages of forum ranting :D
 

I am telling you this as someone who has worked as Customer Support for gaming company as well as GM, until the idea is submitted, it is as good as non existent.

[(PSN)wulvyrn]

1 minute ago, Do_High_Go said:

Does anyone here submit their suggestions actually? Because this is what needs to be done. No staff member will sit and read 13 pages of forum ranting :D
 

I am telling you this as someone who has worked as Customer Support for gaming company as well as GM, until the idea is submitted, it is as good as non existent.

i did in mission feed back with the topic.  13 pages too much, yes.  make a clear topic subject and it should be read.