So sick of trading chat, why can't we get an auction house?

[Urabask]

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

Funny enough, that is the effect of supply and demand as well, but I belive the other guy said something about prices oscilating when new item comes, so it is not the same case.

First of all I said that in the post that you quoted.  And yes, it would still apply to new items since you'd have the same change in player population depending on the time of day.  

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

Unfortunately that is not how statistics works. I am not using warframe.market daily (tbh I use wfmarket maximum once per week) while I am playing daily at least one hour and there are tons of people like me. I dare to say its the majority of players. You cannot compare active player in the game to active players on the market. You could compare active players on market and active players on trade chat. That would be sensible comparison

It's more or less comparable to the unique players per day in Warframe since they have both have the kind of turnover you're talking about.  It's also from across all three platforms so if anything a much lower portion of the player population uses it than the numbers imply.

Trade chat isn't really relevant since with an Auction House you would engage the entire player population instead of just the player population that is willing to put up with staring at trade chat.

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

That is just assumption, now what will happen if they make postage fee 1p and sell tax 10%? In your assumption you also forgot that if you increase players that are participating in trades not only the number of sellers will increase but also a number of buyers. Equilibrium would still be kept. You are also assuming that prices would drop but that is not true. Again the rule of supply and demand

First of all they will never add a posting fee that requires plat because it would mean that you would need platinum to get platinum.  This could create situations where players would have to spend money to sell items. Then a sales tax?  Seriously?  On a premium currency?  That won't happen.  There's a reason why the current trade tax is in credits.

Furthermore it's ridiculous to imply that there would be equilibrium when prices on new items already crash about a month after release.  Now you're adding supply from all the players that haven't bothered selling items and you expect demand to be able to balance out that massive increase in supply.  It's just not going to happen.  Players only need one of each set so you're talking about an economy where it's inevitable for demand for an item to drop quickly while supply increases exponentially.

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

Would I dump all my prime parts I have been hoarding to AH? Nope because I would first need to have something to buy for that platinum. For example I have 9 sets of Trinity prime and unless they are gonna get over 120p I will not sell them. Should I dump garbage prime parts for 1-2p ? No because that would be a waste of my time and waste of trading limit for players more actively selling and buying.

This is just a case of confirmation bias.  You think that players wouldn't immediately dump their items because you don't need to.  There are more than enough players that need plat to continue playing the game and they will sell their items more often than they can buy items.  Most players don't even hit their trade limit per day so the idea that they'd suddenly care that they're wasting trades is a bit ridiculous.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Urabask

[Kaminariss]

4 minutes ago, Urabask said:

Then a sales tax?  Seriously?  On a premium currency?  That won't happen.

Thats exactly what would happen if they decide to make AH. Not having platinum tax would be ridiculous.

5 minutes ago, Urabask said:

First of all they will never add a posting fee that requires plat because it would mean that you would need platinum to get platinum.  This could create situations where players would have to spend money to sell items.

Nonsense. You would be paying tax when someone will buy item, not before. ex. selling item for 100p would get you 90p. 10p would get you 9p. Please have a little insight how taxing works.

7 minutes ago, Urabask said:

And yes, it would still apply to new items since you'd have the same change in player population depending on the time of day.  

No it would not happen, "oscillation" is incorrect term. Proper term is fluctuations (variations). Take a look at google images what is oscillation. If you are trying to make a proper conversation please use correct terms. 

9 minutes ago, Urabask said:

It's more or less comparable to the unique players per day in Warframe

No it is not comparable. Not much percent of playerbase is participating in trading daily. And its no wonder because economy in waframe is still at stone age.

10 minutes ago, Urabask said:

You think that players wouldn't immediately dump their items because you don't need.

That is more of a common sense. Why would suddenly everyone need to dump all their items? Why they are not dumping them now? Whats the difference?

11 minutes ago, Urabask said:

There are more than enough players that need plat to continue playing the game and they will sell their items more often than they can buy items.  Most players don't even hit their trade limit per day so the idea that they'd suddenly care that they're wasting trades is a bit ridiculous.

You just contradited yourself. First you say people would swarm AH once it has been created then you say that most player dont even hit trade limit.

[Loswaith]

15 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Do I really have to read anything past this?  Seriously.  Look at what you've just written here.  I don't want to be mean, but just look at it.  DE aren't mentally deficient in any way that I've noticed.

There is a huge difference between adding a system with the intent to allow players to help out their friends and clan mates, and a system that is designed around building up an economy around premium currency.
Oddly while you say you have actually noticed DE are reasonably clever, you seem to think they will throw out all and every restriction put on trading already, or that they simply have no possible way to actually make a trading post/auction house that would work for Warframe.

 

14 hours ago, Urabask said:

Even without that rare drops from relics have a 10% drop rate from radiant relics.  That is still significantly higher than anything of value in most MMOs.  It doesn't even take all that much effort to get a radshare together either.  You just go to recruitment chat and spend a few minutes getting a party together.  In other MMOs you have to do this just to run content at all.

Currently you can get everything from Prime Access that drops from a relic for 330 plat.  If people are still buying prime access it's because of the platinum and the accessories.

This is exactly my point, despite it already being fairly simple for players to get primes, DE still seem to be selling reasonable numbers of PA.  Making them slightly easier to get really wont have the doom and gloom factor so many players seem sure of by making trading that bit more accessible to everyone (especially newer players).

Edited February 28, 2018 by Loswaith

[(PSN)s3d_sas]

7 hours ago, Gussygoose said:

Easy trade = Less Platinum Buyers = Loss Profit

Make Warframe a buy-to-play game then they will reconsider adding an auction house, although that's impossible.

Who said auctions will be easy?  

[Kaotis]

hace 14 horas, PatternistSlave dijo:

Price fixing is only exacerbated by an automated system.  Actual scamming is very difficult in Warframe so I assume you mean people taking advantage of ignorance.  Also exacerbated by an automated system.  Ignore the social aspect if you like, but it's the main reason I prefer barter over a numbers game.

Actual scamming is dificult? Yesterday i put up a WTB for a common  mod that i didn't have the time to farm and the first 3 mesages were: hi , 200 | 5pl| offer

Now do tell if i"m a new player and i don"t know of the existance of the warframewiki(where to check where it drops) and i see some one maybe link it or on youtube and come to the trade chat and at that time only the 200 one is up... How am I not being scamed in the sense of overplaying for a common drop?

You comsider taking advantage of ignorance not to be scamed I disagree... it is indeed scamming, if no i invite you to read about the people that answered to fishing mails and ended up *losing* money(they didn't know how the laws worked and as a result weren't protected by them while they trusted a random scammer). I consider paying 195+ the normal price to be a scam

Edited February 28, 2018 by kaotis

[(PSN)Semyazza1985]

4 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Now that is something you don't understand. AH is superior in that case. Why?

Because I can spam all day long on trade chat: WTS [Hydroid Prime] set 50p - while completely ignoring all the whispers and someone who also wants to sell it may think that price went down. So people MAY start offering hydroid prime for lower value. This one is called "Ripple effect":

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/ripple-effect-business-22463.html

Using this method I could buy anything at lowered price (if ripple effect would work). The more people I get to spam with me the higher chance someone will sell it for 50p.

You can do the same thing in warframe.market

Why are you thinking that everyone sits on TC for 5 mins ? If you spend like hour is can be easy reads as spaming. I use option ignore. In AH you can do it in the same way but instaead one account you need multiply account just to make multiply trades at lower prices. Those are speculator.

4 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

It holds your item so you cannot back off

Just great. You know that price is changing because many factors not only your beloved suply - demand curve? (day/night or for example "Winter Plat Sale") And you want to put an average price with "buy now" button ? Secondly you know there is something called discount when you buying in bulks from one seller 5 item for 70 each gives 350 plat in total buying separetly but in bulk price is 250 plat cause you trade a discount.

4 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Pros:

• Makes life easier
• Scamming is impossible
• Trading is easier
• Economy actually gets better (prices will be more fluid, more stable)
• No need to be online if you are seller

• Maybe
• Scamming maybe isn't but specalator are waiting for that

• 4 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmwC8xR4kHQ

  Put that in consoles, every console player will love you for that easy trading :)

• Forget about discounts or giveaways (prices can be speculate)

• Seriously a pros ? 

[--RV--Draconian]

21 час назад, (PS4)TheDrift- сказал:

Trade chat should be free, auction should cost 10% of sale price in plat...that way DE get their cut...not happy with DE getting their share?  Then  use trade chat. 

That's actually not a terrible idea, however, i expect that prices in an auction house would just be +10% of trade chat prices. And i think people would still prefer trading in an auction house. At least, I certainly would, don't want to waste time searching for the perfect price.

Honestly, at this point, DE could just partner with warframe.market devs, give them API for accounts info (for better integration) and make things official. I think the market is sufficiently functional as is, just needs better UI.

[(PSN)KresTias]

For me big goal would be if AH allows us search and buy rivens from all regions

[Katoenplukker]

You can always hide your face behind the online avatar. You can scam people without having to suffer the consequence you would face IRL. That's the problem.

Hate trade chat? Better stay away from it.

[Urabask]

7 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Nonsense. You would be paying tax when someone will buy item, not before. ex. selling item for 100p would get you 90p. 10p would get you 9p. Please have a little insight how taxing works.

You literally called it a tax for posting items.  Bother reading what you wrote.

 

7 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

You just contradited yourself. First you say people would swarm AH once it has been created then you say that most player dont even hit trade limit.

I said that they currently don't hit the trade limit  and with the AH they would primarily hit it with sales. 

 

7 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

No it would not happen, "oscillation" is incorrect term. Proper term is fluctuations (variations). Take a look at google images what is oscillation. If you are trying to make a proper conversation please use correct terms. 

Oscillation means that the prices swing back and forth at similar rates at set intervals.  That's what happens.  If you haven't noticed it then it's because you're not paying attention.

7 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

No it is not comparable. Not much percent of playerbase is participating in trading daily. And its no wonder because economy in waframe is still at stone age.

That was the point I was making by comparing wfm concurrent players to Warframe concurrent players ...  few players participate in the economy and even fewer use WFM.

7 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

That is more of a common sense. Why would suddenly everyone need to dump all their items? Why they are not dumping them now? Whats the difference?

Because it takes more effort to sell items in the current system.  If you can just post your items and forget them then there's nothing stopping them from posting 25 items every day.

7 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Thats exactly what would happen if they decide to make AH. Not having platinum tax would be ridiculous.

Nope.  This would be in effect DE charging platinum for nothing.  i.e. They're taking money for nothing.  It would just look really bad.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Urabask

[Kaminariss]

1 hour ago, Urabask said:

You literally called it a tax for posting items.  Bother reading what you wrote.

Perhaps you have a problems with comprehension? All i said they should add SALE tax and maybe postage fee but that would depend if they make a limit of how many items can you post at once. If they set a constant limit of like 10 offers at once then postage fee is not required. Probably never bothered to read my previous comments?

1 hour ago, Urabask said:

I said that they currently don't hit the trade limit  and with the AH they would primarily hit it with sales. 

Again, this is your assumption, and I said it is wrong because people would be doing this already on warframe.market.

1 hour ago, Urabask said:

Oscillation means that the prices swing back and forth at similar rates at set intervals.

LOL NO! For the love of the god, https://warframe.market/items/mirage_prime_set/statistics

This is called price fluctuations.

1 hour ago, Urabask said:

few players participate in the economy and even fewer use WFM.

That is incorrect, currently you have 2 distribution channels: warframe.market and trade chat. To compare them you would need to compare how many active players are on trade chat and how many are on warframe.market. Active players in game has nothing to do with it. It only shows that maximum of 10% of player base participate in trades on daily basis, nothing else.

1 hour ago, Urabask said:

Nope.  This would be in effect DE charging platinum for nothing.  i.e. They're taking money for nothing.  It would just look really bad.

You are the only person in this thread who thought they wouldn't make sale tax. Taking money for nothing? So you are suggesting they are charity company and devs spent 3 months of development for nothing? That's a disrepect towards company. It looks like you have claiming attitude and you need to have everything for free.

[KennBone]

En 24/2/2018 a las 23:39, Dahx11 dijo:

Because DE will lose money :)

how can they lose money.. any kind of action house like " wftrader" its just tell players im selling some item at some price and that´s all where is the lose there?

[BahamutKaiser]

I'd rather not have an auction house, it would have worse problems. 

[Kaminariss]

28 minutes ago, BahamutKaiser said:

it would have worse problems.

Like for example? Worse than trade chat with absolutely every possible problem that market can have?

[Urabask]

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

You are the only person in this thread who thought they wouldn't make sale tax. Taking money for nothing? So you are suggesting they are charity company and devs spent 3 months of development for nothing? That's a disrepect towards company. It looks like you have claiming attitude and you need to have everything for free.

There isn't a single platinum purchase in the game where you don't recieve something for spending platinum.  And no the development time for an AH would not justify a plat sink that would put every other plat sink in the game to shame.  If they believed that would be an option we'd already have that tax instead of the credit tax anyways.  Furthermore expecting to charge money to participate in the economy for a F2P game would mean their economy is undermining the benefits of their monetization scheme.  It's just a really bad idea.

 

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

To compare them you would need to compare how many active players are on trade chat and how many are on warframe.market.

Nope.  Because you're trying to claim that wfm is an auction house so it should have the same effect on the economy.  Trade chat wouldn't be removed so it's a constant.

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

This is called price fluctuations

You do realize the graph shows exactly what I'm talking about right?  After prices settled once a large enough supply was established the price fluctuates at about the same rate during a 24 hour period.  There are no significant changes from day to day.

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

this is your assumption, and I said it is wrong because people would be doing this already on warframe.market

You really think that people are posting and sellling enough items to hit their trade cap on a daily basis?

 

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

you have a problems with comprehension? All i said they should add SALE tax and maybe postage fee but that would depend if they make a limit of how many items can you post at once. If they set a constant limit of like 10 offers at once then postage fee is not required. Probably never bothered to read my previous comments?

I responded to your idea of a posting fee on every item.  What you said earlier isn't relevant especially with the way you phrased it.  You also did not use the word maybe when referring to the posting fee.

[(PSN)Semyazza1985]

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

Like for example? Worse than trade chat with absolutely every possible problem that market can have?

It's like feeding the troll but I have to say it:

"You really don't know how open market works." 

[Pizzarugi]

3 hours ago, davej83 said:

how can they lose money.. any kind of action house like " wftrader" its just tell players im selling some item at some price and that´s all where is the lose there?

Exactly. It's literally non player-to-player interaction away from being a full-blown AH, yet somehow that interaction is crucial to keep the market from killing itself, according to people who don't want it?

I really don't see how listing things on those sites, spamming trade chat every 120 seconds, and performing redundant social interaction during the trading process is better than cutting out the tedium by making the whole thing automated.

[BahamutKaiser]

2 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Like for example? Worse than trade chat with absolutely every possible problem that market can have?

Yes. 

[Kaminariss]

2 hours ago, Urabask said:

 Because you're trying to claim that wfm is an auction house so it should have the same effect on the economy.

Yes it does have currently the most significant impact on the economy because there is no other reliable way to check prices. Trade chat is nowhere near.

2 hours ago, Urabask said:

 If they believed that would be an option we'd already have that tax instead of the credit tax anyways.  Furthermore expecting to charge money to participate in the economy for a F2P game would mean their economy is undermining the benefits of their monetization scheme.  It's just a really bad idea.

Thats the only option, read this thread, you are the only one so far who thinks that AH would be taxless. That is the price of convenience, as in just about every other game with AH. Haven't seen a single AH without tax (even real life aution houses have taxes). Thats naive to think game AH that requires significant amout of time to develop, a big portion to monitor and maintain would be "for free".

 

2 hours ago, Urabask said:

You do realize the graph shows exactly what I'm talking about right?

No, oscillation does not equal fluctuations. Price always starts big then as time passes it sabilizes at cretain level and fluctuate depending not only on time of the day. There are many other variables included. Thats why you cannot say price "oscillates", price fluctuates if anything.

 

2 hours ago, Urabask said:

You really think that people are posting and sellling enough items to hit their trade cap on a daily basis?

And you really think AH would change that? Of course at the very start there will be a boom because it will be something new but after a month everything will come back to normal levels driven by supply and demand curve.

 

2 hours ago, Urabask said:

I responded to your idea of a posting fee on every item.

That is just one of the ways to keep people on spamming auctions. The other way to make a limit of 5-10 concurrent items. Now the question for 100points: why something like that is necessary and what are the other ways to avoid problems? Hint: there are 3+ ways. And if it will not be limited it creates 2+ major problems.

[random__noob]

I understand the need to clean up the HORRIBLE mess that is the trade channel, but can I please call everyone that played Diablo 3 during the early stages get to come up and tell us what happens if you have high-end super-RNG-based items like rivens in a professional trading environment?

Because I still remember what happened. And we should learn a lesson from that.

I honestly vote Trade FUNCTION like the steam item sale function for easy items that are moved in large quantities, like non-vaulted prime parts or Mutalist Alad V coordinates, but keep the trade channel as it is for rivens and likely vaulted items and relics. Anything BUT that would be a horrible mess.

Edited February 28, 2018 by random__noob
typo

[PatternistSlave]

13 hours ago, Loswaith said:

There is a huge difference between adding a system with the intent to allow players to help out their friends and clan mates, and a system that is designed around building up an economy around premium currency.

They are competent and would know a trading system would be utilized to trade.  The level of naivete your assuming is outright absurd.

13 hours ago, Loswaith said:

Oddly while you say you have actually noticed DE are reasonably clever, you seem to think they will throw out all and every restriction put on trading already, or that they simply have no possible way to actually make a trading post/auction house that would work for Warframe.

These are issues the biggest game companies in the industry have struggled with.  Blizzard struggled with.  It might literally be impossible to maintain the level of accessibility to free players with an auction house.  Literally impossible.  Comparable games don't have them.

11 hours ago, kaotis said:

Actual scamming is dificult?

Yes very.  The system was made less convenient, but DE made it very difficult.

11 hours ago, kaotis said:

How am I not being scamed in the sense of overplaying for a common drop?

So you're being "scammed" any time you don't pay the lowest price possible?  Everything should be 1 plat?   Your incompetence as a buyer is not the fault of the seller.  It's not scamming to try and get the most you can for an item.  Scamming involves dishonesty.  There's nothing dishonest or misleading about a price.  A price is just a price.  You pay it or you don't.  The value of an item is whatever you pay for it.  Not whatever you might have been able to pay for it if you'd spent the time to find other sellers.

[Iccotak]

I like what Elder Scrolls Online does.
It has guild traders. 
In many major cities there are hubs of NPCs who represent the various player made guilds.
Any guild can purchase/rent these NPCs but the guilds that do are generally trade and economically focused. 

This allows players to check with all the guilds and find what they are looking for with the best price. 
Along with that it allows more passive income. A member of a guild can simply put the item they wish to sell and the price they want to trade it for in the guild store, and from there they simply wait for someone to buy it. 

However in ESO a player has to travel to the locations of these guild traders in order to compare prices. SO how would it work in Warframe?
Maybe they can put in a "Clan Market" tab in the Warframe store. Where a player can scan through the listings of various clans and what they are offering for sale.

This is just an idea

[Kaminariss]

21 minutes ago, random__noob said:

Diablo 3 during the early stages get to come up and tell us what happens if you have high-end super-RNG-based items like rivens in a professional trading environment?

Diablo 3 did not have daily trade limit. There was also massive amount of items to obtain in quick way. Most of the rivens out there are garbage, you need to get lucky to get rivens worth more than 1000p (which is $25). It is really hard to compare diablo AH to warframe. Not to mention diablo had AH straight out for dollars. You should see how WoW AH works. 

 

11 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Blizzard struggled with.  It might literally be impossible to maintain the level of accessibility to free players with an auction house.  Literally impossible.  Comparable games don't have them.

There are trillions of ways. Most problems blizzard ever had with auction house was that players were selling gold for real money, or selling boosts for real money. How did they fix it? They introduced a Token: https://us.shop.battle.net/en-gb/product/world-of-warcraft-token

In short:

• you can buy token for gold and exchange it for either currency in their shop (dollars, euros) as account ballance or game time.
• you can buy token for real money and sell it for gold in game

So they did not try to fight with windmill, they simply introduced more user friendly solution. WoW still requires to make monthly payments to play but for some wealthy players buying tokens for gold was the perfect solution. They could play for free and they didn't need to sell gold for money anymore with a risk of getting banned.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Kaminariss

[PatternistSlave]

1 minute ago, Kaminariss said:

How did they fix it?

Yes even their SUBSCRIPTION game has had and continues to have huge issues.  No it didn't completely remove gold sellers.  But I was talking about Diablo 3.  The looter more comparable to Warframe.  With an upfront price even.  That couldn't have an auction house.

[---No-Mercy---]

I think the trade system needs a redesign a little bit. The current model has been since launch, they have made improvements to the transaction model to make it more secure to deter scam but other than that its still the old PM then go to the dojo model, its very long winded and outdated especially when there are much more efficient models out there in other MMO's, its quite surprising actually this archaic models exists at all in this game. 

If anyone has played Star Trek Online, the way they deal with player owned goods is an exchange, you post your item with your desired price and it is advertised for 30 days, the item is taken out of your inventory and placed in the exchange.

This system can be easily filtered and searched for your desired item and also this promotes competition in prices since sellers can battle against each other to sell their items. Bought items off the exchange can then be simply added to the buyers inventory OR sent to them via in-game mail, you don't have to be online to sell your items since the item is stored in the exchange for 30 days, if no one has bought the item, a in game mail is sent notifying the seller and it is returned to their inventory for them to re sell at maybe a more competitive price.

The good thing about this model also is it can cap the platinum you can sell things for, this will promote buyers and platinum influx while deterring non appropriate sums of platinum being charged for items. I've seen some models going up for 2000-15000 platinum which is ridiculous. I think a more reasonable ceiling of 1000 platinum is more responsible.