So sick of trading chat, why can't we get an auction house?

[Urabask]

6 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Also someone disagrees with you.

And when he posts proof that he's a lawyer and maybe it'll matter that he's saying something contradicting the article I posted written by an actual lawyer:

https://www.networkworld.com/article/2207996/software/real-legal-issues-with-virtual-currencies.html

6 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Im not aware of every country possible laws, If it is illegal in few states then disable AH for players in those states.

i.e. Disable it in the USA.  So US players have to deal with all the consequences of an AH while not reaping any of the benefits.  I'm sure that would go over really well.

[Kaminariss]

7 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

If you are a seller you go to Maroo's and enter the "seller's" instance. There you just see a room with a console when you activate it allows you to post items you have for sale and the price you want for them(plat or barter). You just select the item, put in your terms for it, and post.

As a buyer you enter Maroo's and go to the "buyer's Instance. Once gain you are in a room with just a console in which you access all the offers in the entire sellers instance. Instead of having to play around with a scrolling chat window where people list items in different and non standardized way, now you can look up any item you want and see if anyone is offering the item up for sale. Once you locate the item you can just message the seller and either agree to his terms or negotiate a price. Once you reach an agreement then the seller can initiate a trade right there and it works out like any other trade.

Using warframe.market is MUCH simpler and does the same thing.

2 hours ago, Urabask said:

i.e. Disable it in the USA.  So US players have to deal with all the consequences of an AH while not reaping any of the benefits.  I'm sure that would go over really well.

If that would be the case then WoW AH couldn't have tax either. Works pretty much in the same way, you can convert real money for gold in WoW, heck, you can even convert WoW gold to real money (in blizzard shop). Yet it DOES have taxes.

You can convert real money to wow gold, then purchase something expensive from other player from AH, he will pay a tax in gold, then he can convert his earned gold into Blizzard shop balance, then he can purchase a virtual gift using real money that was converted from gold to yet another player.

And you say its not possible to make taxes in virtual currency.

[Aggh]

11 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Using warframe.market is MUCH simpler and does the same thing.

If that would be the case then WoW AH couldn't have tax either. Works pretty much in the same way, you can convert real money for gold in WoW, heck, you can even convert WoW gold to real money (in blizzard shop). Yet it DOES have taxes.

You can convert real money to wow gold, then purchase something expensive from other player from AH, he will pay a tax in gold, then he can convert his earned gold into Blizzard shop balance, then he can purchase a virtual gift using real money that was converted from gold to yet another player.

And you say its not possible to make taxes in virtual currency.

Man your reading comprehension is garbage and it's getting frusrating how smug you are despite not knowing what you're talking about.  WoW gold is never sold on a prepaid basis so the law doesn't apply.  It's the polar opposite of premium currencies like platinum.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Aggh

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

15 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Using warframe.market is MUCH simpler and does the same thing.

Then why not just fold it into the game itself?

[Kaminariss]

Then how you define prepaid? Isn't it paying before receiving something? Well thats exactly how wow token works. Quote from their FAQ:

Quote

You can purchase a WoW Token from the Shop for real money and sell it on the Auction House for gold

It is even closer to being prepaid if you compare it to mobile phones prepaids than warframe. Warframe is closer to currency exchange since you directly convert currencies.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

Then why not just fold it into the game itself?

That would be half of the Auction House without the auctioning part and without transactions part.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Kaminariss

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

3 minutes ago, Aggh said:

Man your reading comprehension is garbage.  WoW gold is never sold on a prepaid basis so the law doesn't apply.  It's the polar opposite of premium currencies like platinum.

Do you expect people to take you seriously when you do not even show said laws that you are attempting to tote around as the end all be all reason as to why DE will not add an AH?

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

I don't think it has anything to do with the legality of an auction house, it is an issue of development and infrastructure.

It's very possible that the player database they use is incapable of being used to implement an auction system, to do so would require massive amount of development time and resources.

There is also the added complexity of having auctioning be a whole new aspect of the game which has to be balance against the existing grind and rng drop rates. Once again, forcing the devs to dedicate resources and increase the compexity of their operations.

Nothing I have seen on DE's part show any hint they are committed to doing something like this. This is more than likely the main reason why an auction house isn't in the game.

The only possible solution that DE might entertain would be to polish and improve communication between buyers and sellers to facilitate the the existing trading system much easier. I personally think that they could easily adapt the existing market UI and with a little effort(compared to building out an auction system) can create a system which allows players to look for items and sellers to communicate their offerings and prices to a wider audience.

And even going that route would probably expose huge problems in the current RNG mechanics. I personally think though that shouldn't be a deterrence as this is a huge thing in the game which does have immense impact on the experience.

Edited March 5, 2018 by (PS4)HurricaneHugo76

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

3 hours ago, Urabask said:

And when he posts proof that he's a lawyer and maybe it'll matter that he's saying something contradicting the article I posted written by an actual lawyer:

https://www.networkworld.com/article/2207996/software/real-legal-issues-with-virtual-currencies.html

the same could be said about you. I will admit that I do not know everything, yet you cannot prove, based on an opinion piece via an unreliable and possibly biased source, the taxing AH is against the law. Now go cool your head before you decide to act like you know what you are talking about yourself.

[Shockwave-]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:14 PM, Kaminariss said:

DE wants you to buy cheap from other people. Why? Because you won't be able to earn much platinum by selling things. Remember you are limited on how many transactions per day you can make. And they are not earning any money from P2P transactions. They are earning money when you buy things from their shop.

Now some example.

1. Lets say Mirage Prime set costs now 50p. Lets assume a single void fissure earns you 5p. You need to run at least 10 missions and sell those items in order to buy mirage prime. Did DE earned any money on that transactions? Nope
2. Now if things were cheaper in half, Mirage Prime set 25p but if that is the case, single item will be worth around 2.5p, thats still 10 missions. So absolutely nothing has changed except the money flow.

In the first example you transfered about 100p (earned 50p spent 50p), in the second example 50p (earned 25p spent 25p). In both cases DE didn't earn a single penny. Even tho that plat must have been bought in first place. BUT... In the end people start spending money on their market like premium skins, weapons slots, formas, boosts etc.

Now the second example:

1. In order to buy Rhino premium skin you need to spend 150p (I just assumed it for easier calculatons). If the prices are like 5p per mission, you would need to run 30 void fissures to earn it. You would need around 2 days to do that thanks to limit and hell of a lot time spent on opening relics. Assuming fastest you can open a relic is around 7 minutes that is still 210 minutes spent in game = 3.5h.
2. Now if prime parts, mods, other tradeable items prices went down by half. In order to buy that premium skin you would need 60 void fissure missions. 4 days to trade loot and a total of 7h!!! in game. 

There is hardly any real life job that doesn't earn that much in 7 hours. 170 plat is ~$10 in the shop. Honestly? I would just buy it with real money. Wouldn't bother farming relics so long just to get premium skin. And if you wanna get prime by yourself (by targeting specific relics, doing radshares) prices wouldn't affect time spent on doing this at all.

So the important lesson time = money

 

You are incorrect. You are basically ignoring that with prices high DE makes more money. if, as a player there are tons of rare things in the game that I want, and don't want to spend the time farming to the point  I will buy plat from DE to buy those things.

If I can buy all the things I want in WF for 10.00 worth of play on a 75% off coupon, then that's all I'll ever spend. The cheaper things are P2P the less plat I have to buy to get those things.

OR

Take the example of the free player who doesn't want to buy any plat. They farm hard in game and make lots of plat because things are expensive. Vaulted primes sell for 1000 plat and puncture mod sets are 150 a pop and buzzkill sells for 500 (all prices these were at one time). Someone else bought all that plat and traded it to the free player, who just wanted enough plat to get by. But now he's sold a bunch of stuff and is sitting on 10,000 plat. Suddenly those sayadans that he never thought he'd ever spend plat on don't look so bad, so he buys cosmetics. If everything were really cheap (as with an Auction house) then he would have never made all that plat and never bought the cosmetics. In effect, DE loses plat sales, because the buyers that bought this players plat to buy sayadanans (which removes plat from circulation) never have to buy that plat.

Lastly, anything that devalues the price of anything in game, even P2P sales, increases the value of ALL outstanding plat. If things get more expensive then it reduces the value of the all the plat already bought.

DE has already made everything in game so unbelievable common there is nothing rare anymore. Ember sets once sold for 1300 plat (that's a lot of plat someone had to buy), but nothing sells for that much any more except the occasional riven. Primes are easy to get, now arcanes are easy to get, new release primes are SUPER easy to get with relics,  most of the event mods are not only back but super common. We'll never see prime frames going for 1000p like Frost and Ember were at one point. We won't see new primes selling for 500-800 like Vauban did when he came out (last frame before relics).

[Kaminariss]

34 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

If everything were really cheap

And thats where the the fault of your argument lies in, you are assuming that AH will make everything cheap. Nope it wont, and that invalidates your whole argument. Making trading more accessible will not only increase a number of sellers but also a buyers. You also proved my point:

43 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

DE has already made everything in game so unbelievable common there is nothing rare anymore.

Prices are going down on their own because everything is getting more and more easy TO ACQUIRE, not to buy. And thats the result of supply and demand curve. Just because trading is easier doesn't mean you wont have to get specific relics and run missions to open them.

Also as someone who has almost anything in the game and bought some plat from DE lemmie tell you this. I spent more on weapons/warframe slots, cosmetics than on any prime i bought in game.

 

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

On 2/24/2018 at 5:40 PM, SpectroSinjkai0 said:

The reason is because too many players are afraid of the thought of an auction house, however if we present the idea of an AH just for rivens first then it may gain favor seeing as rivens are a hard item to link sometimes and impossible to sell unveiled in warframe.market. This is very possible but does not have to be the exact same way as WoW since warframe is free however for this to work it'd need to be very exclusive to prime sets, arcanes, and unique rivens because those would take a huge load off of the rest of the market

I'm from xbox, not sure if pc can, but you can simply type [riven mod] and then select the riven of choice. but as somebody else put it, DE would lose $, yea organizing and being able to sit on a sale will lower prices, great for f2p players, but thats fine I do buy plat, and I'll wait, its my plat, idk if you farmed for 8 hours to get that thing, I usually am in the process of farming whatever I'm willing to buy, so take my price or wait, as I'm no stranger to farming.

Cosmetics are the best use of plat for me. But thankfully there are milestones to get there. Its hard to turn down a needed catalyst when that new weapon comes out that you want to try.

 

Edit: anyway, not having an auction house, keeps you in the game. and that is important. not placing your goods away and logging out for the day.

Edited March 5, 2018 by (XB1)Evilpricetag

[-Nghtmare]

I am not going to read 14 pages of comments sorry, but I do support this idea, it will help alleviate going through many people who suffer from chronic toxicity or simply want to charge something 10 times as much for the sake of taking advantage of people who are not well informed.

I have an MR19 account on PS4 and started recently on PC which is now MR15. Going through trade chat with MR20+ players trying to rip me off because they thought I was new was very very annoying, I feel bad for new players honestly (didn't meant to offer honest players).

Edited March 5, 2018 by Nghtmares

[Spectre-8]

AH will be bad for the game .

[helioth137]

5 hours ago, Spectre-8 said:

AH will be bad for the game .

i agree with you, within the framework i think you are thinking of: introducing an auction house which simply reduces prices of everything dramatically, because everyone starts selling their gear very quickly and easily, without any inherent plat/ credit cost in using the system... making it easier to "pay 2 win" (pay to progress super fast). 

but i think digital extremes have proven time and time again they can be creative and make it work, i think they can make this work as well.

I know a lot of people are frustrated by trade chat and would love to see an auction house instead, and would be willing to pay for it.

It's not about paying low prices, it's about avoiding the inconvenience, hassle, and out right cluster bomb of trade chat 

[Urabask]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

the same could be said about you. I will admit that I do not know everything, yet you cannot prove, based on an opinion piece via an unreliable and possibly biased source, the taxing AH is against the law. Now go cool your head before you decide to act like you know what you are talking about yourself.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.pillsburylaw.com/images/content/4/5/v2/4525/VirtualCurrency.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjxt9WowtXZAhWho1kKHVZ8Bo0QFjABegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1oV1Dt45yXFXtS0es50Mdf. Her's another law firm saying the same thing.  Basically every article discussing this comes to the same conclusion.  They even preempt what you're saying by saying that these laws apply to electronic value in any form.  I really doubt that they'd be  advertising their services in relation to virtual currencies if they weren't certain there was a need to comply with these laws.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Urabask

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

44 minutes ago, Urabask said:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.pillsburylaw.com/images/content/4/5/v2/4525/VirtualCurrency.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjxt9WowtXZAhWho1kKHVZ8Bo0QFjABegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1oV1Dt45yXFXtS0es50Mdf. Her's another law firm saying the same thing.  Basically every article discussing this comes to the same conclusion.  They even preempt what you're saying by saying that these laws apply to electronic value in any form.  I really doubt that they'd be  advertising their services in relation to virtual currencies if they weren't certain there was a need to comply with these laws.

That very article shows how there is nothing against imposing in-game taxation on goods.

[Urabask]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

That very article shows how there is nothing against imposing in-game taxation on goods.

No it doesn't.  The taxation discussed is taxation by a government.  Taxation by the developer is a separate issue.

The most stupid part of this argument is that no developer actually taxes premium currency merely to eliminate it from the economy.  They always use a secondary currency which you can earn in game for their auction house.

15 hours ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

Do you expect people to take you seriously when you do not even show said laws that you are attempting to tote around as the end all be all reason as to why DE will not add an AH?

No one said that they're the reason why DE will not add an AH.  They're the reason why an AH can't have a tax on plat which is basically the only way it could work.

15 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

It is even closer to being prepaid if you compare it to mobile phones prepaids than warframe. Warframe is closer to currency exchange since you directly convert currencies.

 

Except your account balance is denoted in Platinum in Warframe.  On battle.net your account balance is denoted in your country's currency.  The issue is that an auction house tax would be a service fee on your account balance.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Urabask

[Kaminariss]

3 hours ago, helioth137 said:

but i think digital extremes have proven time and time again they can be creative and make it work, i think they can make this work as well.

Yeah its called tax, limits of concurrent items, trade limit per day, postage fee, etc. There are trillions of ways to make proper implementation of AH, that were already implemented in other games. So if they wanted to do proper AH they would simply borrow few of those ideas and implement them.

For first month adjusting percentages and numbers. TADAM! AH done. Thats how most of the modern development is done:

Make some internal tests, few simulations, release to public, adjust:

I am pretty sure Digital Extremes is also working using agile development cycles, maybe not this one but similar.

15 minutes ago, Urabask said:

The most stupid part of this argument is that no developer actually taxes premium currency merely to eliminate it from the economy.

The most stupid idea is to think that AH tax is there to eliminate currency from circulation.

17 minutes ago, Urabask said:

Except your account balance is denoted in Platinum in Warframe.  On battle.net your account balance is denoted in your country's currency.

Except on battle net you can straight up by a prepaid (token) and convert it to currency in game.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Kaminariss

[Urabask]

11 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Except on battle net you can straight up by a prepaid (token) and convert it to currency in game.

Converting it to another currency means that it's no longer part of your account balance and they can do whatever they want to what you've converted it too.  DE would have to use a secondary currency for the auction house and allow players to convert it to platinum.  This would require a currency exchange which just adds another way for people to completely destroy the economy.

11 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

The most stupid idea is to think that AH tax is there to eliminate currency from circulation.

Oh boy.  You must think that Santa Claus actually exists too.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Urabask

[Kaminariss]

58 minutes ago, Urabask said:

You must think that Santa Claus actually exists too.

Well, thats what you think, tax is a must to pay for development of AH, Ive been saying that since the begining.

58 minutes ago, Urabask said:

Converting it to another currency means that it's no longer part of your account balance

What kind of resoning is that?

Warframe: I convert real money to platinum (direct currency exchange - hard to call that prepaid)
WoW: I convert real money to token, then convert token to gold (more like prepaid)

And remind us, who said that taxes are impossible on prepaid systems?

Edited March 5, 2018 by Kaminariss

[Kaminariss]

Since i can't delete posts...

Edited March 5, 2018 by Kaminariss

[sixmille]

Il y a 14 heures, Kaminariss a dit :

And thats where the the fault of your argument lies in, you are assuming that AH will make everything cheap. Nope it wont, and that invalidates your whole argument. Making trading more accessible will not only increase a number of sellers but also a buyers. You also proved my point:

Prices are going down on their own because everything is getting more and more easy TO ACQUIRE, not to buy. And thats the result of supply and demand curve. Just because trading is easier doesn't mean you wont have to get specific relics and run missions to open them.

Also as someone who has almost anything in the game and bought some plat from DE lemmie tell you this. I spent more on weapons/warframe slots, cosmetics than on any prime i bought in game.

 

There is no evidence that gameplay changes increase the number of spenders on any free to play game. It's 5% for every game, give or take, nothing the devs do will ever change this. You're talking about supply and demand without even understanding what it is. It's a theory that doesn't apply to 95% of the real life situations. In this case it's invalid because increasing the number of spenders is impossible. If it was proven an auction house would increase the number of paying players, it would have been implemented years ago, but it's not the case, so there is no need for this feature.

Now if you want to discuss economy, I'll be happy to provide. There is plenty of cases showing that increasing prices also increases demand. Feel free to ask if you're interested.

Edited March 5, 2018 by sixmille

[Kaminariss]

6 minutes ago, sixmille said:

There is no evidence that gameplay changes increase the number of spenders

As well as there is no evidence that it will increase number of sellers.

7 minutes ago, sixmille said:

You're talking about supply and demand without even understanding what it is. It's a theory that doesn't apply to 95% of the real life situations.

Here is probably where you lost all your creditability. "Supply and demand is theory that doesn't apply to real life." All I can say is: XD

8 minutes ago, sixmille said:

There is plenty of cases showing that increasing prices also increases demand. Feel free to ask if you're interested.

You want to teach economy to someone who has been in ecommerce segmet for at least 8 years? Also you are talking about something that nobody ever said, price =/= supply. In most situations increased price is not cause but a result of declining supply. Seems like you don't understand how supply and demand works. (Exclusive goods are good exception that proves the theory)

[Urabask]

6 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Well, thats what you think, tax is a must to pay for development of AH, Ive been saying that since the begining.

What kind of resoning is that?

Warframe: I convert real money to platinum (direct currency exchange - hard to call that prepaid)
WoW: I convert real money to token, then convert token to gold (more like prepaid)

And remind us, who said that taxes are impossible on prepaid systems?

What do you not understand about wow tokens being a purchase?  Selling wow tokens for gold would be more comparable to buying an ayatan sculpture with plat and converting it to endo.  Plat IS your account balance and nothing else that is what makes it comparable to a gift card balance.

Also if an AH was beneficial to the game DE would put in the dev time regardless of the cost.  They constantly implement systems and make changes without much regard for profitability.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Urabask

[Kaminariss]

55 minutes ago, Urabask said:

Plat IS your account balance and nothing else that is what makes it comparable to a gift card balance.

 

Gold IS your account balance and nothing else that is what makes it comparable to a gift card balance.

You can buy everthing in game (that is purchasable) for GOLD. Isn't that the same with platinum?
Platinum - in game virtual currency. Gold - in game virtual currency. Both convertable from real money.

Lets recap a bit. You said DE cannot make a tax in platinum because it is supposedly against some kind of law - which turned out to not be a true. And you even provided evidence yourself with a link to that article. Did you even read it? I bet you didn't. Because all that article says is that some countries/states have laws that transactions made using virtual currencies should have tax paid:

Quote

Various countries have imposed or are considering imposition of a tax on gains from virtual goods transactions. For example, China has imposed a 20% tax on such transactions

There isn't a single sentence that says companies cannot make trade tax themselves.

 

57 minutes ago, Urabask said:

Also if an AH was beneficial to the game DE would put in the dev time regardless of the cost.

That is one of the dumbest argument I have ever heard.

"If electricity was beneficial for humanty, people would put much pressure on development regardless of the cost." Yet it took us quite a while.

You see, there is nothing in this world that is worth regardless of the cost. You have no idea what is the cost of development of AH, and you claim devs would just do it regardless.

Thats just stupid. Even I don't know how much of the cost it would be for DE, I only know more or less just because I happen to be a software developer. What if it took them 5 months of work? Would that still be acceptable to not see any update for 5 months? Nope. And thats the valid reason against AH (also the reason I am neutral).