Banshee Rework/Revisit

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

Been a while since I’ve done this, a complete post of a rework to a frame, that is.

First let’s start off with a bit of backstory. Banshee used to be a frame I hated. I didnt understand the appeal. She was weak, paper thin. I mean I like to play glass cannons, but I only saw her as glass, not a cannon. And then one day... One day I finally got her. And now she’s one of my favorite frames in the game!

Now that being said, she’s not perfect, and I’d like to compile a few ideas to improve and alter her kit without completely changing her. The ideas I’ll be proposing won’t change the way she works overall, but add a bit of synergy to her kit (centered around Silence) while keeping her as a burst dps/stealth hybrid frame but also make her a debuff/support frame and a type of debuff frame we don’t really have ATM.

Without further ado, let’s get started.

 

Suppressor: No need to change this. A wonderful Passive.

Sonic Boom: Angle of the blast is affected by Power Range as well as distance, similar to Oberon’s Hallowed Ground. With enough of Power Range Sonic Boom can achieve a full 360 degrees. If used on an enemy that’s affected by Silence, applies the “Weakness” debuff which multiplies Ability Damage by 1.5x at base and stacks upon multiple casts, but each stack has its own independent timer, based on Power Duration. Damage multiplier is based on Power Strength.

Reasoning: Sonic Boom, I feel, is Banshee’s least used Ability. Soundquake offers better CC and damage, which it rightfully should, it’s her 4th ability, after all. However, by adding a weakness debuff she can provide a unique type of damage boost on top of of reliable CC. And combined with her already stellar Sonar, can be a true terror.

Sonar: Largely unchanged except added functionality with Silence. While Silence is active, using Sonar resets Silence duration and causes surrounding enemies to stagger.

Reasoning: Adds a unique way to “recast” Silence without simply casting Silence again. Promotes the use of Sonar as much as possible without it putting Banshee in danger as long as she has Silence up.

Silence: Retains it’s normal abilities, but with an added function. Enemies that provide buffs to their allies or cause a debuff to you and your allies when you get close to them (any Eximus unit, Ancient Disruptors, Ancient Healers, Toxic Ancients, Shield Drones, etc.) will have their effect nullified when they become affected by Silence. Naturally, this effect can be nullified by nullifiers if they enter its bubble.

Reasoning: Wanted to incorporate the standard RPG Silence debuff to her kit. There also aren’t enough ways to counteract Eximus Units. So why not make the one Warframe with the ability called Silence into our very own Nullifier? 

Soundqauke: No change. A solid dps ability that doesn’t need anything else done to it... except maybe a change in damage type. Blast causes grave issues against common Eximus types, making it do 0 Damage, effectively becoming absolutely useless. Maybe my Silence tweak could nullify enemy resistances to Blast? Possibly.

Reasoning: Not much needs to be done with this ability since my proposed change to Sonic Boom with its Augment and Sonar/Silence Combo would greatly improve this Abilities performance (at the cost of bit more energy) as well as keep the Banshee from AFKing (What better way to keep the Banshee from AFKing than to ensure that they’re casting their other abilities?). Along with that, I feel it would make her kit more fluid and fun.

That is all. Let me know what you think. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by (XB1)Ivan of Jupiter

[Blade_Wolf_16]

100% agree. Banshee is pretty good, but extremely simple and lacks variety. I really like the proposed Sonar/Silence changes and I think it would make her a lot more viable as a CC/Debuff frame. 

[Rabbid-]

23 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ivan of Jupiter said:

 

 

Silence: Retains it’s normal abilities, but with an added function. Enemies that provide buffs to their allies or cause a debuff to you and your allies when you get close to them (any Eximus unit, Ancient Disruptors, Ancient Healers, Toxic Ancients, Shield Drones, etc.) will have their effect nullified when they become affected by Silence. Naturally, this effect can be nullified by nullifiers if they enter its bubble.

Reasoning: Wanted to incorporate the standard RPG Silence debuff to her kit. There also aren’t enough ways to counteract Eximus Units. So why not make the one Warframe with the ability called Silence into our very own Nullifier? 

 

1

Too op imo since a sortie with an eximus spawn condition will basically make it a normal high-level mission 
Nekros can already control an army of eximus, why make them useless when you can use it for your own benefit
Void missions will also be less challenging because of the ancient infested that's giving dmg reduction becoming useless when they can just die with 1 hit even in high levels 
Just too op imo

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

7 minutes ago, Rabbid- said:

Too op imo since a sortie with an eximus spawn condition will basically make it a normal high-level mission 
Nekros can already control an army of eximus, why make them useless when you can use it for your own benefit
Void missions will also be less challenging because of the ancient infested that's giving dmg reduction becoming useless when they can just die with 1 hit even in high levels 
Just too op imo

Fair enough, but I’ll go ahead and counter this statement.

Don’t really understand the point about Nekros. Shadows themselves wouldn’t be summoned nullified if that’s what your worried about. In fact a Silence Banshee and a SotD Nekros would be a stellar combo and truly turn the tables on the enemy.

Eximus Strongholds would still be dangerous. Eximus Units naturally spawn 10-15 levels higher than the rest of the lesser units. They hit harder, have more health and more armor/shields.

As for making Void Missions easy... yeah... that’s kind of the point of traditional RPG Silence. As a rebuttal, high level Void missions have an enemy Damage multiplier. This seems like a fair trade off to me lol.

If you’re that worried about it being OP perhaps it could be percentage based? Making Eximus and Healers less effective, but not entirely nullified?

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

26 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

100% agree. Banshee is pretty good, but extremely simple and lacks variety. I really like the proposed Sonar/Silence changes and I think it would make her a lot more viable as a CC/Debuff frame. 

Thanks for the vote of approval lol. Yeah she’s a fantastic frame, but feels a bit outdated. Her kit just isn’t fluid imo. She comes from an era of Warframe where there was no ability synergy and no ability cohesiveness and it truly shows.

[Deatrone]

I like the changes you suggested, but i am absolutely shocked that you feel like Sound Quake is fine.
It's absolutely not imo, actually its one of the worst ultimate abilities in the game(without augment that is). So i'd like to see some drastic changes to her 1 and 4, because those two are not really worth the time you spend on casting them, especially her quake, which locks you in place and drains a good chuck of energy to deal some very low damage(200 per second) and cc enemies. So basically, her ultimate stuns you and enemies around you, which is a very poor concept in my eyes.

Maybe just add RQ to her 4th baseline? And add some duration to that knockdown, like 5 seconds, so you don't need to spam it.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Deatrone

[(PSN)Cynicaid]

I'd love it if Silence reapplied its effect every few periodically. Some decent crowd control to excuse her extremely squishy nature without gimping her durations/range.

 

Oh, and Soundquake just needs to be replaced outright. It is such a boring, useless, ultimate that I can't help but play her as if she only has 3 skills plus a dedicated afk button.

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

7 hours ago, Deatrone said:

I like the changes you suggested, but i am absolutely shocked that you feel like Sound Quake is fine.
It's absolutely not imo, actually its one of the worst ultimate abilities in the game(without augment that is). So i'd like to see some drastic changes to her 1 and 4, because those two are not really worth the time you spend on casting them, especially her quake, which locks you in place and drains a good chuck of energy to deal some very low damage(200 per second) and cc enemies. So basically, her ultimate stuns you and enemies around you, which is a very poor concept in my eyes.

Maybe just add RQ to her 4th baseline? And add some duration to that knockdown, like 5 seconds, so you don't need to spam it.

I’ve never had an issue with SQ. Sure it locks you down making you a target, but the trade of is radial CC and DPS. Also something that many people don’t seem to understand is that Sonar can improve SQ DPS. Sure 200 a tick may seem low, but what about 2k (or more depending on your build) per tick?

i actually quite like SQ, although I don’t use it like a lot of the usual “Banshee Players”. I don’t abuse it and use it sparingly. Only when there’s a large grouping of enemies.

Edited February 28, 2018 by (XB1)Ivan of Jupiter

[Deatrone]

Il y a 13 heures, (Xbox One)Ivan of Jupiter a dit :

I’ve never had an issue with SQ. Sure it locks you down making you a target, but the trade of is radial CC and DPS. Also something that many people don’t seem to understand is that Sonar can improve SQ DPS. Sure 200 a tick may seem low, but what about 2k (or more depending on your build) per tick?

That's still very low considering that is locks you in place. i never use it when i run sonar build, because there is no reason to do so. If you need aoe stun, you use silence, if you need someone in front of you knocked down for some reason, you use 1, and in both cases you can use your weapons on those cc'd enemies.
But hey, we can have different opinions. I would still prefer completely new ultimate instead of this one though.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Silence can still stun persists inside Nullifier bubble, meaning an enemy pushed back by Sonic Boom Ragdoll but was in Silence Aura will do the 'Headache' animation when standing inside a Nullifier bubble.

Enemies currently doing 'Headache' animation will also finish Animation even with Nullifier bubble covering them.

(Prolonged Paralysis is the same in that regards as stunned enemies stay laying down for remainder of stun duration even if Nullifier bubble is covering them.)

Nullifier Bubble does not negate stun animation or duration from Silence or Prolonged Paralysis, only prevents them from being applied in the first place.

 

The Sonic Boom additional debuff basically overlaps with Sonic Fracture Augment, which uses Sonic Boom to apply an armor debuff.

(Sonic Fracture Armor debuff stacks as you described for a Sonic Boom debuff)

I personally would have preferred Sonic Boom having an interaction with Silence in that it would not Ragdoll and instead would refresh stun duration:

Silence is pretty much a Melee-oriented ability with the weakness being the initial stun duration being short. Sonic Boom ragdolling enemies away is not melee friendly, but together they could be reliable Mobile stun.

Some 1-handed cast-ability tweaks for Silence and/or Sonar would do fine.

 

Sonar really doesn't need any interaction with her other Abilities and can be left as-is. The weakness stacking of multiple Sonar Weakpoints along with Enemy radar showing would far exceed Sonic Boom having a highlighted weakpoint.

Base 100% Powerstrength is 5x damage multiplier with multiple casts being near exponential.

5 overlapping casts is 5*5*5*5*5 or 5^5th = 3,125  for a 3,125x Multiplier

Thus it would make more sense to simply cast another additional Sonar for Weakpoints than to cast several Sonic Boom weakpoints. 

1 Sonar (5x stackable multiplier)cost 2 Sonic Booms (1.5x Stackable Multiplier) [1.5 * 1.5 = 2.25 or half of a Sonar Multiplier for the same energy cost]*

or if Sonic Boom was given Combo mechanic then it might be more beneficial to cast additional Sonic Booms rather than an additional Sonar.

[TKDancer]

i just want to be able to recast silence in any way, thats all im asking for DE

[TheGrimCorsair]

22 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

i just want to be able to recast silence in any way, thats all im asking for DE

Yeah, that'd be great. Just make sure if recasting it while it's active it doesn't re-stun all the enemies under its umbrella and it'd be perfect.

[TKDancer]

1 minute ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Yeah, that'd be great. Just make sure if recasting it while it's active it doesn't re-stun all the enemies under its umbrella and it'd be perfect.

no i want the re-stun

[TheGrimCorsair]

Just now, TKDancer said:

no i want the re-stun

You want a power that would be incredibly overpowered. Gotcha. Sonar's too advanced for you, amirite? That left mouse button is real tricky.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

7 minutes ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

You want a power that would be incredibly overpowered. Gotcha. Sonar's too advanced for you, amirite? That left mouse button is real tricky.

That is why I proposed Sonic Boom counting as the re-stun for Silence when used together.

Sonic Boom already has a CC-cooldown on. Affected targets.

Using with Silence would replace Sonic boom Ragdoll with silence re-stun. Same CC-cooldown can be applied.

[TKDancer]

21 minutes ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

You want a power that would be incredibly overpowered.

yeah id like consistent CC that doesnt require jumping back and forth like a mad rabbit to re-stun enemies

 

EDIT: also the stun is so short lived, yall really like exaggerating how powerful being able to recast a 3rd skill that costs 75 energy at base that causes a very short stun would be when things like.. limbo, or rhino, or harrow, etc exist

Edited February 28, 2018 by TKDancer

[EinheriarJudith]

2 hours ago, TKDancer said:

yeah id like consistent CC that doesnt require jumping back and forth like a mad rabbit to re-stun enemies

 

EDIT: also the stun is so short lived, yall really like exaggerating how powerful being able to recast a 3rd skill that costs 75 energy at base that causes a very short stun would be when things like.. limbo, or rhino, or harrow, etc exist

there is nothing wrong with banshee CC and while we agree a re-castable silence would be lovely. id take making it a one handed as well. it doesn't need to re-stun since you can re-stun by moving around. dont like moving around? you are playing the wrong game.

[TKDancer]

3 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

 dont like moving around? you are playing the wrong game.

u people are so freaking weird

 

the ability to do a freaking re stun wont break ur fav frame, stop being elitist weirdos

 

yes there is a problem with banshee CC cause having to jump back and forth from the same group of enemies is extremely odd and makes no sense, even weirder is when u are standing at the edge of the abilities effect and can literally take 2 steps forward/back to keep re-stunning them

 

being able to fully recast silence in some way that included the stun again would be a great QoL change for banshee

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, TKDancer said:

u people are so freaking weird

 

the ability to do a freaking re stun wont break ur fav frame, stop being elitist weirdos

 

yes there is a problem with banshee CC cause having to jump back and forth from the same group of enemies is extremely odd and makes no sense, even weirder is when u are standing at the edge of the abilities effect and can literally take 2 steps forward/back to keep re-stunning them

 

being able to fully recast silence in some way that included the stun again would be a great QoL change for banshee

so suggesting not to be static in a parkour game (a game built on movement) is being elitist? even though we both agree on a recast of silence. she can already re-stun. i love how non lazy banshee is especially with SQ augment change

[TKDancer]

Just now, EinheriarJudith said:

so suggesting not to be static in a parkour gam

stop being disingenuous!  there's a very big difference between being mobile and literally jumping from point A to point B and repeating that just to refresh a stun, a very short lived one

 

there is literally no reason for us to not be able to refresh it ourselves by actually using the ability again

 

"non-lazy" u spelled clunky wrong, and if this was ever changed nothing would be stopping you from continuing to play in the clunky way u seemingly like

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, TKDancer said:

stop being disingenuous!  there's a very big difference between being mobile and literally jumping from point A to point B and repeating that just to refresh a stun, a very short lived one

 

there is literally no reason for us to not be able to refresh it ourselves by actually using the ability again

 

"non-lazy" u spelled clunky wrong, and if this was ever changed nothing would be stopping you from continuing to play in the clunky way u seemingly like

were done. there is nothing to see here. you want to turn an already strong power into and even stronger power. no thanks.

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

5 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

so suggesting not to be static in a parkour game (a game built on movement) is being elitist? even though we both agree on a recast of silence. she can already re-stun. i love how non lazy banshee is especially with SQ augment change

 

2 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

stop being disingenuous!  there's a very big difference between being mobile and literally jumping from point A to point B and repeating that just to refresh a stun, a very short lived one

 

there is literally no reason for us to not be able to refresh it ourselves by actually using the ability again

 

"non-lazy" u spelled clunky wrong, and if this was ever changed nothing would be stopping you from continuing to play in the clunky way u seemingly like

Let’s not let this debate devolve into an argument here, guys. If you’ve got nothing constructive to say don’t say anything at all or the thread will be locked.

[TKDancer]

1 minute ago, EinheriarJudith said:

were done. there is nothing to see here. you want to turn an already strong power into and even stronger power. no thanks.

a short stun that can only be refreshed by getting away from enemies and back isnt "an already strong power" lmao

 

radial blind is considerably better despite (sorta) requiring line of sight, and its a starter frame's 2nd ability

[TKDancer]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ivan of Jupiter said:

 

Let’s not let this debate devolve into an argument here, guys.

very well, back to the topic:

i have mixed feelings about how quake should work: obviously in dont want smth that can lock down entire maps to let others go and kill enemies, or smth that can melt anything below sortie levels(specially when up against enemies without armor) but im not sure i want it to be purely CC... anyways i do have some thoughts on resonating quake

i personally think RQ should either go back to their original reworked idea of creating a temporary quake that keeps going on its on for a few seconds*maybe give it reduced range?) or get a new faster animation

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

38 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

very well, back to the topic:

i have mixed feelings about how quake should work: obviously in dont want smth that can lock down entire maps to let others go and kill enemies, or smth that can melt anything below sortie levels(specially when up against enemies without armor) but im not sure i want it to be purely CC... anyways i do have some thoughts on resonating quake

i personally think RQ should either go back to their original reworked idea of creating a temporary quake that keeps going on its on for a few seconds*maybe give it reduced range?) or get a new faster animation

Yeah I can understand that. The biggest issue is that DE has stated that they don’t want to remove and replace abilities anymore. And since it is one of her best abilities (DPS wise), it’s not likely it’ll happen.