Why the Elite Onslaught Changes are Healthy (beware of opinions)

[Ascarith]

2 hours ago, Lakais said:

I honestly can't remember them saying that this mode is anything BUT a short, intense arcade mode not meant for long runs. And if DE had made it where you have only 20 minutes to go as far as you can then we would be sitting on this exact same issue with a different title. "Why make it only 20 minutes!? We can go for longer! DE is anti-fun and oppressive!" And how would you reconcile the arguments of people needing to leave early in a wave based game mode? 

So I'd argue back that Onslaught is technically Endless. In that you can push it WAAAY beyond what the Devs intended to be the "normal run time". But they have done what they should of done with Survival and Defense and every other Endless mode and put in a "soft cap" where the game respectfully but firmly goes "Well done! Get out." 

I think you're reading a little too much into my post. I didn't argue for different mechanics, just that DE could have done a better job relaying what we should have expected from the mode. I'm not sure what to make of your hypothetical because I never proposed that.

As for the second part, I'll grant you that in a Devstream, they said you weren't supposed to go for hours, but some people are struggling even before they hit the single hour mark. DE didn't literally say anything contrary to what we eventually got, but it could have been a lot clearer. 

Note the forum patch notes:

On 4/20/2018 at 10:27 AM, [DE]Megan said:

NEW ENDLESS GAMEMODE!
SANCTUARY ONSLAUGHT 

Compare this to the News entry: New Game Mode: Sanctuary Onslaught

I'd argue the News entry is less misleading, because it simply states it is a new mode (i.e. does not imply the mode is "endless" in any sense of the word). The forum Patch Notes specifically say it's a "new endless gamemode." (Also worth noting consistency contributes a lot to clarity). 

Admittedly, you can reasonably say the mode is literally endless. But if it is not so in a practical sense of the word, I think DE should have used different language. Moreover, when DE chooses to stick Onslaught into the preexisting category of "endless" modes, they can't really blame people for using the other modes already in that category to shape their expectations for what Onslaught is (or supposed to be). 

I'm not saying that DE isn't being literally truthful in what they say, I'm saying that I don't think DE is being all that clear in what they say.

 

[Kyronz]

Hopefully the next hotfix will fix a few of the asinine decisions they went with in the last hotfix.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

This would be fine, but they lowered the levels for no reason. If you want to test our killing potential, why lower the levels? Levels should've remained while hp was simply fixed. That way, killing potential is naturally fought instead of just cut off. Like i said, fighting what's in the game vs fighting the game itself. When it's the efficiency that's the only thing stopping  you, then you got this feeling of bs that people here feel.

[Lakais]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

This would be fine, but they lowered the levels for no reason. If you want to test our killing potential, why lower the levels? Levels should've remained while hp was simply fixed. That way, killing potential is naturally fought instead of just cut off. Like i said, fighting what's in the game vs fighting the game itself. When it's the efficiency that's the only thing stopping  you, then you got this feeling of bs that people here feel.

They had a reason, the difficulty curve. My guess is that DE don't measure and balance around the full-kit hardcore endgame player. They have their concept of how the mode should feel like and how long would be some sort of statistical "Standard run" of the missions (I always assume that to be one A-C rotation) and balance the enemy difficulty and scaling based on that. They fixed the enemy health and now they needed to tone it back down again so a reasonably kitted player could kill enough of these enemies and survive to match their estimates based on what they tweak the efficiency drain and so forth. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Lakais

[Mintaro]

12 hours ago, CrazyNutz said:

if the top spots on the leaderboards are 5 hours of work it will the "competative" aspect for anyone that dont have that time to invest. so making it shorter opens it up to more players.

so what do you want a few happy players or many happy players ? .. who knows now when they have the mode settup what stops them from adding other flavours aswell ?

And those hard drops on efficincy are also competitive?

[(PSN)Crixus044]

10 hours ago, Lakais said:

They had a reason, the difficulty curve. My guess is that DE don't measure and balance around the full-kit hardcore endgame player. They have their concept of how the mode should feel like and how long would be some sort of statistical "Standard run" of the missions (I always assume that to be one A-C rotation) and balance the enemy difficulty and scaling based on that. They fixed the enemy health and now they needed to tone it back down again so a reasonably kitted player could kill enough of these enemies and survive to match their estimates based on what they tweak the efficiency drain and so forth. 

But you see, standard or casual players could be in casual and standard missions, while hardcore players are in the hardcore missions. The minute you start mixing the 2, you get unbalance, hate, and annoyance. Hence, underpowered/ average stuff like castanas trinity is called op when it really is not.

You cannot say that a single rotation is a way to view the entirety of the game when the average health of enemies at those levels is around 20k yet our melee reaches 250k AVERAGE without slide spam or status included. With kps (kills per second) in mind, our effective dps is almost half our builds are able to put out, thus we are not performing up to our capabilities. That's clear evidence that we need stronger enemies.

The peak of enemy levels minus onslaught is 120, which was actually pretty hard back in 2015, when trials first came out and sorties were in the works, thus why it was chosen. I'm sure you remember Phoenix Intercept. Since then, our power has grown more than ever to where 100 isn't hard with our good gear. This is why our normal tactics need higher levels. Power increases against the same enemy year after year is power creep. Power increases against stronger and stronger enemies is progression. I've been saying this for years, prophesizing the recent events. Back in 2015, when our highest level was 40 yet our gear had grown so strong, that it was ready for level 100, people asked for a challenge and we got the level 100 missions. Recently, our gear has grown so strong and people are again asking for challenge, and just yesterday, what I've been saying for months has come true. Onslaught now reaches level 250.

It's not really hardcore when you think about it, just high level. Anyone can put 7 forma into their weapon and have the best gear in game. Now it's a matter of where you take it. The recent increase in onslaught elite levels to 250 is proof of this. Our gear is ready for it. For those who have the building knowledge and mechanics knowledge, level 250 is child's play.

I hope this lets you see our side of things.

[VampirePirate]

On 4/26/2018 at 8:29 AM, DrBorris said:

38:23

 

sorry... i'm not able to see the video.  I can see twitch but not youtube.

[Lakais]

16 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

But you see, standard or casual players could be in casual and standard missions, while hardcore players are in the hardcore missions. The minute you start mixing the 2, you get unbalance, hate, and annoyance. Hence, underpowered/ average stuff like castanas trinity is called op when it really is not.

You cannot say that a single rotation is a way to view the entirety of the game when the average health of enemies at those levels is around 20k yet our melee reaches 250k AVERAGE without slide spam or status included. With kps (kills per second) in mind, our effective dps is almost half our builds are able to put out, thus we are not performing up to our capabilities. That's clear evidence that we need stronger enemies.

The peak of enemy levels minus onslaught is 120, which was actually pretty hard back in 2015, when trials first came out and sorties were in the works, thus why it was chosen. I'm sure you remember Phoenix Intercept. Since then, our power has grown more than ever to where 100 isn't hard with our good gear. This is why our normal tactics need higher levels. Power increases against the same enemy year after year is power creep. Power increases against stronger and stronger enemies is progression. I've been saying this for years, prophesizing the recent events. Back in 2015, when our highest level was 40 yet our gear had grown so strong, that it was ready for level 100, people asked for a challenge and we got the level 100 missions. Recently, our gear has grown so strong and people are again asking for challenge, and just yesterday, what I've been saying for months has come true. Onslaught now reaches level 250.

It's not really hardcore when you think about it, just high level. Anyone can put 7 forma into their weapon and have the best gear in game. Now it's a matter of where you take it. The recent increase in onslaught elite levels to 250 is proof of this. Our gear is ready for it. For those who have the building knowledge and mechanics knowledge, level 250 is child's play.

I hope this lets you see our side of things.

I get the point and the logic. But I don't subscribe to it. Frankly the thing with the levels and power creep is a clear indication that a lot is wrong with the current progression. I don't see those high levels as a Challenge, I see them at best as a fancy, drawn out gamble. Because the levels stop being important the moment the mook enemy can essentially dropkick you regardless of build if you let them. And it starts mattering again when we can no longer dropkick more of them and faster. That is also the point where the border between "skillful use of mechanics" and straight up game breaking exploits becomes uncomfortably blurry. DE gave us these tools with the best of intentions for fun and varied gameplay. But as the saying goes "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." 

At some point, this power we have will have to be curbed. In my opinion, the bumping up of enemy level numbers does basically nothing because it frankly doesn't really mater when we can make builds that essentially oneshot them regardless of the number in their name or shut them down completely, effectively taking them out of the fight. The only realistic sustainable option for a "Challenge" is one that takes away or otherwise negates the various mechanics we use to cheese these missions. Be it in the style of nullifiers or Nox units who in general require a slightly different approach then a brain dead macro attack or unique mission modifiers that are directly aimed at cutting our potential down to size. I just think if DE does plan to go on with the current system, they need to get creative with the enemies and mission modifiers to provide this "challenge" to actually challenge. And to keep it fresh and interesting as the higher levels options is just not it. 

Now I admit, my idea of a challenge is different to most. Which is why I put most of them in quotation marks. It's a case of some people wanting content to match the effect we can have: enemies that warrant the insane damage output we are capable of. Versus someone like me who thinks late-game should be more about mastery of immediate combat mechanics and skills, rather then cookie-cutter builds. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Lakais

[(PSN)Crixus044]

22 hours ago, Lakais said:

I get the point and the logic. But I don't subscribe to it. Frankly the thing with the levels and power creep is a clear indication that a lot is wrong with the current progression. I don't see those high levels as a Challenge, I see them at best as a fancy, drawn out gamble. Because the levels stop being important the moment the mook enemy can essentially dropkick you regardless of build if you let them. And it starts mattering again when we can no longer dropkick more of them and faster. That is also the point where the border between "skillful use of mechanics" and straight up game breaking exploits becomes uncomfortably blurry. DE gave us these tools with the best of intentions for fun and varied gameplay. But as the saying goes "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." 

At some point, this power we have will have to be curbed. In my opinion, the bumping up of enemy level numbers does basically nothing because it frankly doesn't really mater when we can make builds that essentially oneshot them regardless of the number in their name or shut them down completely, effectively taking them out of the fight. The only realistic sustainable option for a "Challenge" is one that takes away or otherwise negates the various mechanics we use to cheese these missions. Be it in the style of nullifiers or Nox units who in general require a slightly different approach then a brain dead macro attack or unique mission modifiers that are directly aimed at cutting our potential down to size. I just think if DE does plan to go on with the current system, they need to get creative with the enemies and mission modifiers to provide this "challenge" to actually challenge. And to keep it fresh and interesting as the higher levels options is just not it. 

Now I admit, my idea of a challenge is different to most. Which is why I put most of them in quotation marks. It's a case of some people wanting content to match the effect we can have: enemies that warrant the insane damage output we are capable of. Versus someone like me who thinks late-game should be more about mastery of immediate combat mechanics and skills, rather then cookie-cutter builds. 

I agree that we cannot keep up this power gain. I remember in early 2015, level 100 was thought to be hard, and it was. Later throughout the year, we started getting power boosts up to the point where I did a solo ODS for 5 1/2 hours. It was a highlight in my WF history. Then Second Dream came out, then Shadow Debt, then all these wacky primes, primed mods, reworks, status craze, etc. we have gotten to a point that level 1000 is considered not hard. I don't agree that there's many things that can one shot any enemy of any level, especially not at the efficiency rate of onslaught. Our main strength is our overbearing DPS, which tanky enemies are the only things that mitigate that. Cheesy counters is really not the way to go. There isn't enough cheesy methods that we have that need something equally cheesy, because it's only a matter of time before our cheese is removed. Look at old saryn, old ash, old mag, mag+saryn, etc. There isn't much cheese left to fight the level 5000s that require such a detrimental addition. Cheese counters is the idea that instead of players fighting the content in the game, we must fight the game itself, which is just bad. Slide spam needs to go, this I am on-board with, but take that away and we really don't have much.

About enemies 1 shotting us, this is true of frames that are not suppose to take damage like dps frames and cc frames lol. Tanks can definitely take the hits when combo'd right. I can any tank minus weakling Chroma (RIP) up to the necessary EHp for tanking extreme level dps like we are able to output, so we got the insane dps and the insane tankiness as well as our insane cc, now we need an insane enemy, then we have the progression.

I see people are starting to use my terminology of cookie cutter builds lol

All in all, if we get rid of slide spam, which is the last of the aoe cheese in warframe, sharpen up enemy behavior, bump oup the levels, and curb the power buffs, we're gonna be fine. 

[Lakais]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I agree that we cannot keep up this power gain. I remember in early 2015, level 100 was thought to be hard, and it was. Later throughout the year, we started getting power boosts up to the point where I did a solo ODS for 5 1/2 hours. It was a highlight in my WF history. Then Second Dream came out, then Shadow Debt, then all these wacky primes, primed mods, reworks, status craze, etc. we have gotten to a point that level 1000 is considered not hard. I don't agree that there's many things that can one shot any enemy of any level, especially not at the efficiency rate of onslaught. Our main strength is our overbearing DPS, which tanky enemies are the only things that mitigate that. Cheesy counters is really not the way to go. There isn't enough cheesy methods that we have that need something equally cheesy, because it's only a matter of time before our cheese is removed. Look at old saryn, old ash, old mag, mag+saryn, etc. There isn't much cheese left to fight the level 5000s that require such a detrimental addition. Cheese counters is the idea that instead of players fighting the content in the game, we must fight the game itself, which is just bad. Slide spam needs to go, this I am on-board with, but take that away and we really don't have much.

About enemies 1 shotting us, this is true of frames that are not suppose to take damage like dps frames and cc frames lol. Tanks can definitely take the hits when combo'd right. I can any tank minus weakling Chroma (RIP) up to the necessary EHp for tanking extreme level dps like we are able to output, so we got the insane dps and the insane tankiness as well as our insane cc, now we need an insane enemy, then we have the progression.

I see people are starting to use my terminology of cookie cutter builds lol

All in all, if we get rid of slide spam, which is the last of the aoe cheese in warframe, sharpen up enemy behavior, bump oup the levels, and curb the power buffs, we're gonna be fine. 

The things with the frames you mentioned were good additions by the Devs to force players to be more involved in a fight. As for my logic of level irrelevancy, it was based on a generalization. As I said "if you let them". And not everyone runs tank frames just as not everyone has the rivens, mods, arcanes etc etc to have the top tier best damage output. 

DE has already implemented CC counters in the form of diminishing returns (the duration and strength of CC attacks gets smaller the more times you use it on them) but this is on bosses who have the insane tankyness to survive enough attacks to make use of this. And I'd also argue that just making enemies strong enough to create this type of progression is the wrong move. I don't think DE should move the route of old-guard RPG's with their hard level systems (see WoW, Borderlands or Diablo or any WoW clone MMO). Personally I believe DE should move towards a flat, non-scaling system where an enemy doesn't grow stronger to create difficulty. But rather this challenge and difficulty is created through different enemies and their population numbers. Meaning a Lancer will always have the same health and damage regardless how many hours in a survival you spend. It's just an Elite lancer is considerably more powerful and becomes more numerous the further you go and a Heavy unity (gunner or bombard) is even MORE powerful. Difficulty through the types of enemies you face, rather then a number next to their name implying some multiplier to their health and damage output. 

Though admittedly, this change would require a massive overhaul in the way some mods work and most importantly, why some mods even exist. For example any more that provides more damage would need to be nerfed HARD. The entire logic and thought pattern behind this system is different to a scaling level based one we have now. 

The issue with slide spam specifically is the range and the fact that it does MORE damage then a normal attack. And lets not forget the few mods that really blow this thing out of the water. I believe that equally set up, a focused single-target attack should ALWAYS deal considerably more damage then a wide-range AoE attack. Slide attacks in general do more damage AND they work wonky as hell with terrain. I might be mistaken but I always feel like melee slide-attacks have punch-through which is weird as all hell and they also hit targets meters above and bellow the plane of attack. Which is all just... weird. Slide attacks are great to have, it's just I think they work strangely and a bit too well. 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

4 minutes ago, Lakais said:

The things with the frames you mentioned were good additions by the Devs to force players to be more involved in a fight. As for my logic of level irrelevancy, it was based on a generalization. As I said "if you let them". And not everyone runs tank frames just as not everyone has the rivens, mods, arcanes etc etc to have the top tier best damage output. 

DE has already implemented CC counters in the form of diminishing returns (the duration and strength of CC attacks gets smaller the more times you use it on them) but this is on bosses who have the insane tankyness to survive enough attacks to make use of this. And I'd also argue that just making enemies strong enough to create this type of progression is the wrong move. I don't think DE should move the route of old-guard RPG's with their hard level systems (see WoW, Borderlands or Diablo or any WoW clone MMO). Personally I believe DE should move towards a flat, non-scaling system where an enemy doesn't grow stronger to create difficulty. But rather this challenge and difficulty is created through different enemies and their population numbers. Meaning a Lancer will always have the same health and damage regardless how many hours in a survival you spend. It's just an Elite lancer is considerably more powerful and becomes more numerous the further you go and a Heavy unity (gunner or bombard) is even MORE powerful. Difficulty through the types of enemies you face, rather then a number next to their name implying some multiplier to their health and damage output. 

Though admittedly, this change would require a massive overhaul in the way some mods work and most importantly, why some mods even exist. For example any more that provides more damage would need to be nerfed HARD. The entire logic and thought pattern behind this system is different to a scaling level based one we have now. 

The issue with slide spam specifically is the range and the fact that it does MORE damage then a normal attack. And lets not forget the few mods that really blow this thing out of the water. I believe that equally set up, a focused single-target attack should ALWAYS deal considerably more damage then a wide-range AoE attack. Slide attacks in general do more damage AND they work wonky as hell with terrain. I might be mistaken but I always feel like melee slide-attacks have punch-through which is weird as all hell and they also hit targets meters above and bellow the plane of attack. Which is all just... weird. Slide attacks are great to have, it's just I think they work strangely and a bit too well. 

Even if you removed the slide buffing mods, dps wise, slide spam is stronger the 90% of the stance combos in game. I always said that a cooldown to slides like a .75 seconds delay would be perfect, but the users of slide spam are a noisy bunch and hate this. Scaling enemy population and damage/ai instead of health is a system that cannot work in warframe. This system works exceptionally well in other games and it's good that you bring it up, but not WF. our AoE capabilities kills the population scaling as well, and enemy aoe, hitscan weapons, and already scaling damage really hurt that solution, as well as our parkour ability against projectiles.

Honestly, check out a level scaling calculator and looks at the stats of an enemy that high, and see if you can come up with a method that can get at least 3 kills every 10 seconds (The baseline for sustaining a survival).

If you're not running a strategic team, then you're not gonna get far. That's all there is too it. You really don't need rivens, even though they help. We've been fine without them for years. If you don't have the top tier level items, then don't try to fight top tier level enemies. If you want a casual build, go fight casual level enemies and get rewards at a casual pace until you're top tier and earn the ability to fight top tier enemies and get top tier rewards at a top tier pace. I'm a nice guy, but you cannot cater so much to people in a video game. You have to give clear limits. These limits are challenges for people to break through and ascend to the next level. That's how games work. If you want to go far, just like any RPG, you gotta run the holy trinity of RPG, which is healer/support, tank, dps. Everyone has their role clearly laid out, they can do their job, then we can get the performance necessary. That's all there is too it. There has to be something in game that not everyone or everything can do. That's how you get an endgame.