[22.20.5] Spores Revisited Feedback MEGATHREAD

[Unktena]

1 hour ago, SyBuhr said:

But what about the people who loved her as a Debuff support frame? Well, tough S#&$ lad, because the only miniscule debuff she has (corrosive on spores), is practically the most used Aura and Element on weapons. Viral at 75 base energy isn't even worth it at that point, just put it on your Ignis Wraith, because why wouldn't you use that weapon (and only that) on Saryn at this point. Only purpose for Miasma is those last second spore spreads, that's it. 

Just pointing things out as I see them.
When there is CPs. People should be bringing Viral. Just simple math. Saryn 2.0 "Debuff" frame was just Viral Procs. Sure that's great and all, but nothing too fancy viral procs aren't too hard to get and you only need one every 6 seconds. I personally prefer the Corrosive proc because people don't always bring 4 CPs and armor is a lot of DR. I can generally feel when I'm the only CP even in level 40 or 50 missions. Also it lets me run different Auras. The rework as a whole I prefer a lot. The molt is guaranteed to last for a couple of seconds which makes regenerative molt be usable past level 40. Like I said earlier Viral procs only need one every 6 seconds and you need a good deal of Corrosive procs to strip armor, so I prefer the elements as they are.Her Toxic Lash applying to all weapons is also a nice change I didn't like feeling "restricted" in my weapon use.

Another of your points was how Saryns compete with other frames, and other Saryns. I have 2 points for this: The First is that Saryn 2.0 conflicted, maybe there was a change that I missed but if another Saryn had spores on an enemy you couldn't apply spores to them. Nova has a similar issue with her molecular prime. The Second point is that all kill frames reduce the effectiveness of other kill frames people just don't seem to say anything. If you have 2 Mesas in a room one of them is going have less kills. In fact that works just shooting.

I'm probably losing coherency, but I felt like I should address the viral issue. You need 1 energy orb every 2 casts of Miasma 112m Diameter the proc is going to last for 18 seconds per cast. Doesn't seem too hard to pull off.
 

Closing Issues with your post:
Saryn 1.0(?) Negative Duration increasing Miasma's damage I haven't seen spam anywhere near that tier from any frame, other than old nekros and desecrate.
Viral while nice, isn't anywhere near the end all be all and I see plenty of people who don't use CP.
I still have a Debuff Saryn build. Well, Range and Duration.
They changed launchers (Ignis included) to need to be aimed at a spore. So it still uses Lash.
People like DPS frames, when was the last time you saw a Debuff Equinox.
Anyone can decide not to revive you, "I could lose my bloodrush stacks."
Maybe I'm lucky, but I haven't had a group disband because I was Saryn.
Nidus is worse off than Saryn. If you can't build spores don't. I generally have no troubles reaching about 600 or 700 damage and while that isn't very high it is almost instantly killing things. But . . . I'm not always trying to spread them.
This might sound weird, but good frames trivialize content. I can AFK if I see a loki in many missions, same with mesa or frost in defense. I've even solo'd defenses and the like as Excal.

TL:DR DPS Frames compete for kills; there is no way around that. You can choose to only care about spores, but you still have a good kit and very little was taken away from the first rework to this iteration (Mostly just the elemental swap on 1&4). Saryns competing for spores is an old issue, maybe it wasn't noticed because no one was playing Saryn.
Hopefully the things I said made some sense.
I originally came here to see if there was any confirmation on how things like Energy Conversion work with her longer Duration abilities, but I felt like I needed to give an opinion as someone who likes the new Saryn

Edited June 9, 2018 by Unktena
Reworded the last sentence.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

10 hours ago, Reclaimer2448 said:

A lot of the times I feel like my Ignis isn't spreading them around until I use Toxic Lash either, with the exception of when my cross-hair is right on the spore. Didn't they (explosives in general) used to spread it in 2.0?

 

Ignis does spread them, but you have to aim for them. 

And yes, explosives used to spread spores in 2.0 times regardless of if it killed

[Unktena]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

Ignis does spread them, but you have to aim for them. 

And yes, explosives used to spread spores in 2.0 times regardless of if it killed

That was a change to explosive weapons IIRC. They used to always get headshots too.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

Just now, Unktena said:

That was a change to explosive weapons IIRC. They used to always get headshots too.

It was a change at the 3.0 spores.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

12 minutes ago, Unktena said:

Just pointing things out as I see them.
When there is CPs. People should be bringing Viral. Just simple math. Saryn 2.0 "Debuff" frame was just Viral Procs. Sure that's great and all, but nothing too fancy viral procs aren't too hard to get and you only need one every 6 seconds. I personally prefer the Corrosive proc because people don't always bring 4 CPs and armor is a lot of DR. I can generally feel when I'm the only CP even in level 40 or 50 missions. Also it lets me run different Auras. The rework as a whole I prefer a lot. The molt is guaranteed to last for a couple of seconds which makes regenerative molt be usable past level 40. Like I said earlier Viral procs only need one every 6 seconds and you need a good deal of Corrosive procs to strip armor, so I prefer the elements as they are.Her Toxic Lash applying to all weapons is also a nice change I didn't like feeling "restricted" in my weapon use.

Another of your points was how Saryns compete with other frames, and other Saryns. I have 2 points for this: The First is that Saryn 2.0 conflicted, maybe there was a change that I missed but if another Saryn had spores on an enemy you couldn't apply spores to them. Nova has a similar issue with her molecular prime. The Second point is that all kill frames reduce the effectiveness of other kill frames people just don't seem to say anything. If you have 2 Mesas in a room one of them is going have less kills. In fact that works just shooting.

I'm probably losing coherency, but I felt like I should address the viral issue. You need 1 energy orb every 2 casts of Miasma 112m Diameter the proc is going to last for 18 seconds per cast. Doesn't seem too hard to pull off.
 

Closing Issues with your post:
Saryn 1.0(?) Negative Duration increasing Miasma's damage I haven't seen spam anywhere near that tier from any frame, other than old nekros and desecrate.
Viral while nice, isn't anywhere near the end all be all and I see plenty of people who don't use CP.
I still have a Debuff Saryn build. Well, Range and Duration.
They changed launchers (Ignis included) to need to be aimed at a spore. So it still uses Lash.
People like DPS frames, when was the last time you saw a Debuff Equinox.
Anyone can decide not to revive you, "I could lose my bloodrush stacks."
Maybe I'm lucky, but I haven't had a group disband because I was Saryn.
Nidus is worse off than Saryn. If you can't build spores don't. I generally have no troubles reaching about 600 or 700 damage and while that isn't very high it is almost instantly killing things. But . . . I'm not always trying to spread them.
This might sound weird, but good frames trivialize content. I can AFK if I see a loki in many missions, same with mesa or frost in defense. I've even solo'd defenses and the like as Excal.

TL:DR DPS Frames compete for kills; there is no way around that. You can choose to only care about spores, but you still have a good kit and very little was taken away from the first rework to this iteration (Mostly just the elemental swap on 1&4). Saryns competing for spores is an old issue, maybe it wasn't noticed because no one was playing Saryn.
Hopefully the things I said made some sense.
I originally came here to see if there was any confirmation on how things like Energy Conversion work with her longer Duration abilities, but I felt like I needed to talk on why I like new Saryn.

The last line of that is contradiction.

Nowhere in that post was anything about what you liked. What was in it was effectively, "I don't like the things you said here". 

Come up with a non-contradictory statement before typing, please. 

[Unktena]

Sorry, I like the new Saryn.
I prefer that her 1 has corrosive procs, I like that her 3 applies to all weapons, I prefer her 4 doing Viral, I like the fact that her 2 survives for at least 2 seconds. I thought I had that in the post somewhere.
My first bit of text goes over that. (Edit)

Edited June 9, 2018 by Unktena

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

6 minutes ago, Unktena said:

Sorry, I like the new Saryn.
I prefer that her 1 has corrosive procs, I like that her 3 applies to all weapons, I prefer her 4 doing Viral, I like the fact that her 2 survives for at least 2 seconds. I thought I had that in the post somewhere.
My first bit of text goes over that. (Edit)

Good. Now explain your build, why it works, what doesn't work, and what you don't like. 

This isn't jabs at you, it's illustrating how to make constructive feedback

[Unktena]

I like where she is and I don't really want to see her changed. I felt like I should point out that the issues the other person had with Saryn, mostly the competing issues, are issues that are bigger than just Saryn. I feel she is a good DPS option with a good self buff and sustain that is now guaranteed to at least give you 2 tics of healing. I place more value on Corrosive procs than Viral procs. I have a mixed build with Str as the Priority a mixed build with range as priority and a range build with efficiency and duration. I prefer the str focused one most of the time because it's bigger heals and a better buff. It would be nice if spores were easier to spread, but that seems like a hard balancing point and it is a facet of the kit. One that has been recently emphasized.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

Good. Now, we've been discussing this for a while but we've been trying to come up with changes that would make her more consistent without just breaking the game.

I believe I've done that to an extent earlier in the thread. If you want I can bring it to this page to see again, or you can go reading some other good ideas that people have had so far

[(PSN)Radehx]

So we all still trying to "balance" Saryn based on low levels? Because it kinda sounds like it...and imo that's an idiotic idea. 

There are frames that simply work better at higher levels, just like there are frames that work better at lower than higher levels. Don't think Nidus/Saryn work great against lvl20? Fine, take another frame...just like you should pick another frame when playing higher levels. Not every ability works fine against everything and that's ok imo. It's called variety, deal with it.

Saryn can now reliably strip armor and halve health. At lower levels she does it so successfully, stuff dies too quickly for the spore train to take off...but that is OK because she doesn't need a gazillion spore stacks at those levels, just like Nidus doesn't need 100 stacks to beat lvl30 enemies...one stomp is enough. Whining about all this is so silly. If you want to experience the full power of those frames, move up to higher levels and challenge yourself a little. 

People need to also get over decay, it's bloody irrelevant. By the time you need all those stacks, you'll generate them in no time. Use Miasma at lower levels. By the time it falls off, you can start the spore train. Or use Toxic Lash...a lower levels that on its on provides you with all the damage you need.

I pretty much agree with H3dsh0t's assessment: 

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Snip

You aren't helping in any meaningful way whatsoever. 

If you have been paying attention(likely not from that injection of stupid) we've been discussing more than just her low level competence. 

Now before you prattle on about her damage being great, we've basically been ignoring that facet because it's fine. There's no disputing the damage she has. 

What we ARE actually discussing is the mechanics of delivering that damage. "Git gud" doesn't stop people from having legitimate feedback and as far as I'm concerned, you didn't say anything in the post I'm replying to. 

Ok? If you can't do anything but tell people they're wrong without any clear point against theirs, then you have nothing to say except,

"I'm fine, you should be too because I'm not capable of thinking of my own opinion. Here's a video of someone else's opinion"

If you want to have constructive feedback then:

Tell us your build

Tell us your likes

Tell us your dislikes

Tell us what works

Tell us what doesn't work

Tell us what might be changed to make it work

Follow that pattern and i'm sure you'll come up with constructive feedback instead of insulting people.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Saryn is so goood now. I can spore 4 lvl 150 gunners and 4 lvl 150 corrupted bombards... Activate toxic lash, Pop the spores with any gun... Cast miasma then completely wreck them in mere seconds with any melee....

I absolutely love this rework. 

Tried toxic lash with secura penta... EPIC!

With daikyu.... EPIC!

With akbronco prime... EPIC!

With dark split sword... WOW

Superb!

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[(PSN)Radehx]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

snip

 

I video I posted just explains it all. 

You have to apply the correct abilities for the level you play at. Don't expect spores to be key at all levels. At some, toxic lash on its own is all you need. Adapt! 

She has everything she needs to be good at all content. At lower and mid levels, using toxic lash alone mixed in with a bit of miasma means you won't have to worry about having to keep the spore train going. Also means you won't run into as many energy issues trying to get the spore train going pointlessly. By the time you actually need that damage, applying spores isn't hard at all and super energy efficient. Decay is a total non issue.  

In short, she has ways to apply the perfect amount of damage per level and whining over spores not being the optimal solution at all levels is ridiculous! She CAN apply damage effectively, at all levels...just don't expect all her abilities to be optimal at all levels. The same goes for a lot of other frames. 

Sad spores aren't optimal at lower levels? Get over it.

[(PSN)Radehx]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Saryn is so goood now. I can spore 4 lvl 150 gunners and 4 lvl 150 corrupted bombards... Activate toxic lash, Pop the spores with any gun... Cast miasma then completely wreck them in mere seconds with any melee....

I absolutely love this rework. 

Tried toxic lash with secura penta... EPIC!

With daikyu.... EPIC!

With akbronco prime... EPIC!

With dark split sword... WOW

Superb!

 

Super fun with the Glaive Prime too. The quick attack where the Glaive circles around you 3 times is perfect to spread spores. Toxic lash is probably my favorite Saryn ability, the damage output scales so nicely.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

I video I posted just explains it all. 

You have to apply the correct abilities for the level you play at. Don't expect spores to be key at all levels. At some, toxic lash on its own is all you need. Adapt! 

She has everything she needs to be good at all content. At lower and mid levels, using toxic lash alone mixed in with a bit of miasma means you won't have to worry about having to keep the spore train going. Also means you won't run into as many energy issues trying to get the spore train going pointlessly. By the time you actually need that damage, applying spores isn't hard at all and super energy efficient. Decay is a total non issue.  

In short, she has ways to apply the perfect amount of damage per level and whining over spores not being the optimal solution at all levels is ridiculous! She CAN apply damage effectively, at all levels...just don't expect all her abilities to be optimal at all levels. The same goes for a lot of other frames. 

Sad spores aren't optimal at lower levels? Get over it.

Shes optimal at all levels. Indeed, i agree. I wish they would rework rhino in the same way they just did saryn. He doesn't even have whats considered. high armor anymore.

[(PSN)Radehx]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Shes optimal at all levels. Indeed, i agree. I wish they would rework rhino in the same way they just did saryn. He doesn't even have whats considered. high armor anymore.

Imo people should just get over the need to use spores in all circumstances. Use it tactically in the right spots. It's not as if she doesn't have skills to compensate when needed. 

I think that's what DE is going for with recent reworks, giving frames the ability to scale better by using all abilities. Start off with just toxic lash which is super energy efficient, mix in Miasma once you've built up energy a bit and then easy into spores as enemy armor gets tougher. She can move up in levels seamlessly and is now much more energy efficient. I run with efficiency at 100 and pretty much never run out of energy no matter which level I play at.

Trying to get spores going at lvl30 is silly and totally not needed, toxic lash alone is enough to crush those levels. My quick attack with the toxic lash boosted Glaive AOE one-shots everything around me without even using spores up past lvl50. 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Imo people should just get over the need to use spores in all circumstances. Use it tactically in the right spots. It's not as if she doesn't have skills to compensate when needed. 

I think that's what DE is going for with recent reworks, giving frames the ability to scale better by using all abilities. Start off with just toxic lash which is super energy efficient, mix in Miasma once you've built up energy a bit and then easy into spores as enemy armor gets tougher. She can move up in levels seamlessly and is now much more energy efficient. I run with efficiency at 100 and pretty much never run out of energy no matter which level I play at.

Trying to get spores going at lvl30 is silly and totally not needed, toxic lash alone is enough to crush those levels. My quick attack with the toxic lash boosted Glaive AOE one-shots everything around me without even using spores up past lvl50. 

I agree... Toxic lash and miasma can go up to and including lvl 100 enemies tbqh, without a single spore.

 

[(PSN)Radehx]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

I agree... Toxic lash and miasma can go up to and including lvl 100 enemies tbqh, without a single spore.

 

The one thing I want them to fix though is the FPS lag you get once spores really kick in. We had the same lag back in the day with the old spores before they fixed it. Seems to be back now whenever there are a lot of spored enemies around. 

I'd also be ok with slightly "nerfing" Miasma's damage (keep the viral procs!) in exchange for a slightly longer CC stun. Up it from 6 to maybe 8-10sec. You'd still get the benefit of viral procs, the advantage of helping to spread spores...but it could be used less as a low level nuke. In exchange, you'd get better CC. The stun duration is currently not affected by your duration stat...I think that should be changed.

Can totally live without that though, just think it would kinda make sense. 

Overall though, I think she's in a great spot. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[Ikusias]

Honestly guys, after trying Saryn post 3.5 rework, reading your comments and checking some notorious youtubers reviews, i'm still convinced that [DE]Pablo should have picked the entirety of this rework and stuffed it in a new warframe while leaving Saryn the hell alone, the only thing that was needed to make her reasonable in ideal conditions like Eso was to put a check on toxin procs scaling due to weapon damage amd on the number of sphores recastable on a single molt...

Molt turret was used for 2 reasons, as it in fact cut out a lot of potential damage negating the status procs inflicted on it from trasmitting to the propagating sphores: energy recovery with toxic lash and inefficent builds and being able to infect enemies safely above a certain level due to Saryn's squishiness, exacerbated when rework 2.0 removed a good chunk of her Hp replacing it with a pittance of extra armor and making regenerative molt much less useful as an augment

There were better ways to go at this, anything thatn nuking the place from orbit and than admitting dissatifaction like [DE]Pablo did, check his answer halfpage down https://old.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/8mp03f/pablos_plan_opinion_about_saryn_35_compiled_from/  

I've invested plat and time in a frame that's been drastically altered in ways that I strongly dislike.

i understand that new players can find Saryn 3.5 easier/more immediate to use, and like the potentially obscene DPS, but what about the people that bought her prime access or skins or anything else because they liked her as she was? I take this as a big "XXXXXXX you" to players from DE and from Pablo, all for that crap mode that is Onslaught.

No need to ask, YES I'm salty like an entire salt mine, because as it is i won't be using Saryn anymore because she isn't Saryn anymore.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

I video I posted just explains it all. 

You have to apply the correct abilities for the level you play at. Don't expect spores to be key at all levels. At some, toxic lash on its own is all you need. Adapt! 

She has everything she needs to be good at all content. At lower and mid levels, using toxic lash alone mixed in with a bit of miasma means you won't have to worry about having to keep the spore train going. Also means you won't run into as many energy issues trying to get the spore train going pointlessly. By the time you actually need that damage, applying spores isn't hard at all and super energy efficient. Decay is a total non issue.  

In short, she has ways to apply the perfect amount of damage per level and whining over spores not being the optimal solution at all levels is ridiculous! She CAN apply damage effectively, at all levels...just don't expect all her abilities to be optimal at all levels. The same goes for a lot of other frames. 

Sad spores aren't optimal at lower levels? Get over it.

"Get over it" gotcha. You basically said a bunch of nothing. Fluffy nothing. The video means you don't have your own opinion and are influenced easily by others. 

Again, nobody is arguing how much damage she does. Just inconsistencies. Now if you actually want to be a part of the discussion, don't tell people to, in any way, "git gud" because it highlights how very little you understand.

Second, telling people not to have a very valid opinion on a feedback forum makes you look dumb.

Not anybody else. 

If you want to actually leave feedback. Do the following:

Tell us your build

Tell us your likes

Tell us your dislikes

Tell us what works

Tell us what doesn't work

Tell us what might be changed to make it work

Follow that pattern and i'm sure you'll come up with constructive feedback instead of insulting people.(again)

[(PSN)Radehx]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

"Get over it" gotcha. You basically said a bunch of nothing. Fluffy nothing. The video means you don't have your own opinion and are influenced easily by others. 

Again, nobody is arguing how much damage she does. Just inconsistencies. Now if you actually want to be a part of the discussion, don't tell people to, in any way, "git gud" because it highlights how very little you understand.

Second, telling people not to have a very valid opinion on a feedback forum makes you look dumb.

Not anybody else. 

If you want to actually leave feedback. Do the following:

Tell us your build

Tell us your likes

Tell us your dislikes

Tell us what works

Tell us what doesn't work

Tell us what might be changed to make it work

Follow that pattern and i'm sure you'll come up with constructive feedback instead of insulting people.(again)

Dude, you need to breathe and calm down!

What if the video I posted shows exactly what I think? Think before you post. If you can't even look at concrete examples people post, it's hard to take you seriously. The video does EXACTLY what you ask for. It goes over builds and shows what works and when...and what doesn't in certain situations. As have I by explaining how to use spores in combination with her other abilities...and when some abilities work better than others.

Overall, I'm totally fine with the changes. She has tools in her kit that work at all levels but not all of them work at all levels...and that's FINE. 

So again, either you post why you disagree with the content I posted...or yeah...what can I say...get over it. If you simply disregard the content, no one should take you seriously. 

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Dude, you need to breathe and calm down!

What if the video I posted shows exactly what I think? Think before you post. If you can't even look at concrete examples people post, it's hard to take you seriously. The video does EXACTLY what you ask for. It goes over builds and shows what works and when...and what doesn't in certain situations. As have I by explaining how to use spores in combination with her other abilities...and when some abilities work better than others.

Overall, I'm totally fine with the changes. She has tools in her kit that work at all levels but not all of them work at all levels...and that's FINE. 

So again, either you post why you disagree with the content I posted...or yeah...what can I say...get over it. If you simply disregard the content, no one should take you seriously. 

I'm disregarding the video because it isn't YOUR opinion. And it appears that your opinion is that "everyone else is dumb to think other than me". 

It even goes as far as I have posted suggested changes in this thread that have positive changes for saryn to make her consistent. 

Now. I'll accept the second section in this post as feedback, but any insulting again means you don't understand what people are talking about. 

If you need my suggested changes, I can bring them over in my next post. 

[(PSN)Radehx]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

I'm disregarding the video because it isn't YOUR opinion.

 

Oh right...so now I can't totally agree with the content of a video and use that to highlight my point? 

Like I said, you are so set in your little tantrum, you can't even look at other evidence anymore. I saw your changes, I disagree with them because Saryn is fine imo...and I've explained why both in text form and by posting a video I 100% agree with. And that video does everything you ask for by going over builds and abilities. The comical notion that people can't agree with videos is clownish. That's not an insult, it's a fact.

Edited June 10, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

Then you can only say she's fine as is.

Say that and leave, because that is your opinion and that's all you're going to say and then insult other people who have a different opinion. 

Good job on the feedback

[(PSN)Radehx]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

Then you can only say she's fine as is.

Say that and leave, because that is your opinion and that's all you're going to say and then insult other people who have a different opinion. 

Good job on the feedback

I have outlined WHY I am fine with the changes. You were the one creating a tantrum just because I don't agree with your notion that Saryn is bad.

Also, it's hard to take you seriously if you act like the forum police telling others what they can or can't post. That's not an insult, it's an observation based on your posts. 

Edited June 10, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx