[22.20.5] Spores Revisited Feedback MEGATHREAD

[(PSN)Radehx]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

If you look closer at my suggested changes, you'll realize why nothing changes for you.

Specifically, death by spores range is reduced only. 

Effectively nothing changes for you otherwise

So you won't address the FACT that your entire criticism and quest for change is based on you using spores in the wrong spots? In short...you refusing to adapt?

Again, I don't want DE to mess with her again, because they can #*!% it up by doing that...as they have before with countless other abilities/frames. She's fine now...unless you use spores in dumb spots, and that doesn't require a fix on the frame's part.

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[GPrime96]

15 minutes ago, DjKaplis said:

(Titania is another matrer, she feels fun but can't deny that she currently has many problems that need fixing, I hope they adress these in her rework)

She's very One trick pony. Her 1 - 3 needs improvements. 

So far, I'm enjoying using a Non - Maiming Strike Atterax with Saryn. With her Spores, Toxic Lash, and Miasma, I can wipe 20 lvl 110 heavily Armored enemies like the Napalm in the Simulacrum like their Trash Mobs. When i try to kill them with Toxic Lash by itself, My Atterax won't kill no where near as fast because of how fast Armor Scales in this game.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

So you won't address the FACT that your entire criticism and quest for change is based on you using spores in the wrong spots? In short...you refusing to adapt?

Again, I don't want DE to mess with her again, because they can #*!% it up by doing that...as they have before with countless other abilities/frames. She's fine now...unless you use spores in dumb spots, and that doesn't require a fix on the frame's part.

So. What you're telling me is 2-3 hour survivals, and ESO isn't the place to use her abilities when she's balanced for killing things in those areas? 

I ignored that part because I had hoped you would see why someone(me), who's played different types of saryns(3 whole saryn primes each with their own forma) with multitudes of playstyles, was perfectly qualified to make a feedback statement. 

On a feedback forum. 

Just like you are. As long as your feedback is constructive.

What you're trying to do is make me shut up. And I don't play that without facts. 

If you want an echo chamber where praise for the rework is the only thing, I don't mind that. What I won't stand for is ignorance and insults because you refuse to understand that people can have opinions on a feedback forum.

Keep your insults. To yourself. Quit refusing to adapt to this situation like you tell people to. 

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

13 minutes ago, VPrime96 said:

She's very One trick pony. Her 1 - 3 needs improvements. 

So far, I'm enjoying using a Non - Maiming Strike Atterax with Saryn. With her Spores, Toxic Lash, and Miasma, I can wipe 20 lvl 110 heavily Armored enemies like the Napalm in the Simulacrum like their Trash Mobs. When i try to kill them with Toxic Lash by itself, My Atterax won't kill no where near as fast because of how fast Armor Scales in this game.

You are not wrong. It feels really good to kill heavily armored enemies like they're butter. Have to tried adding "condition overload" to your atterax?

[(PSN)Radehx]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

So. What you're telling me is 2-3 hour survivals, and ESO isn't the place to use her abilities when she's balanced for killing things in those areas? 

I ignored that part because I had hoped you would see why someone(me), who's played different types of saryns(3 whole saryn primes each with their own forma) with multitudes of playstyles, was perfectly qualified to make a feedback statement. 

On a feedback forum. 

Just like you are. As long as your feedback is constructive.

What you're trying to do is make me shut up. And I don't play that without facts. 

If you want an echo chamber where praise for the rework is the only thing, I don't mind that. What I won't stand for is ignorance and insults because you refuse to understand that people can have opinions on a feedback forum.

Keep your insults. To yourself. Quit refusing to adapt to this situation like you tell people to. 

What do you mean "2-3 hour survivals and ESO" isn't the place to use her abilities? You shouldn't have any issues using spores pretty much from the start of MOT for example. If you struggle to spread spores during 2-3hr survival runs, it's not the frame or spores that are bad, it's you not using her correctly...clearly. Same goes for ESO after the first few levels.

The problem is, you accuse others of not listening, but fail to explain why the spore issue you list isn't based on you not adapting. The issue you list is only one if you use spores in the wrong spots...aka when enemies are too weak to require their debuff/damage. Like I said, I have ZERO issue spreading spores at levels that warrant their use. Explain to me how this is possible if spores are such an issue...

And pointing that out isn't an insult, it's an observation...because you flat out ignore that the issue you describe is based on you using spores against stuff that doesn't require that debuff/damage AT ALL. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

Just now, (PS4)Radehx said:

What do you mean "2-3 hour survivals and ESO" isn't the place to use her abilities? You shouldn't have any issues using spores pretty much from the start of MOT for example. Same goes for ESO after the first few levels.

The problem is, you accuse others of not listening, but fail to explain why the spore issue you list isn't based on you not adapting. The issue you list is only one if you use spores in the wrong spots...aka when enemies are too weak to require their debuff/damage. Like I said, I have ZERO issue spreading spores at levels that warrant their use. Explain to me how this is possible if spores are such an issue...

You didn't read many of my posts. You're just focusing on things I said that you don't like. 

Here's a brief look into it. 

I have bunches of builds for saryn. All of them have range at 190% minimum. 

(Keyword here) MOST of those builds don't work well because they don't have either efficiency or rage variant.

The ones that do work well I have problems with because they can straight kill enemies after a while and then reset. I don't really have a problem with them reseting, I have a problem with them not spreading. You see, in my experience, almost all the enemies with spores die at once regardless of when they spread them. It's going to happen.

From what I've seen, it's generally not well advised to keep moving from room to room with saryn because when enemies get to a significant level saryn dies in basically one hit so you have to keep a molt up. At that point, they have significant health pools so you have to add damage or reduce their health. Toxic lash, or miasma. Those cost energy and if you don't have efficiency or a rage variant you HAVE to use energy pizzas. 

I don't like that direction for her. 

I have made suggested changes based on this. Now. Trying to shut me up won't work because I have experience with saryn and the fact that this is a feedback forum. 

Here's the facts. Adapt to the situation like you keep telling people so rudely. Quit insulting people.

It makes you look like you have no idea what's going on. 

[(PSN)Radehx]

56 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

You didn't read many of my posts. You're just focusing on things I said that you don't like. 

Here's a brief look into it. 

I have bunches of builds for saryn. All of them have range at 190% minimum. 

(Keyword here) MOST of those builds don't work well because they don't have either efficiency or rage variant.

The ones that do work well I have problems with because they can straight kill enemies after a while and then reset. I don't really have a problem with them reseting, I have a problem with them not spreading. You see, in my experience, almost all the enemies with spores die at once regardless of when they spread them. It's going to happen.

From what I've seen, it's generally not well advised to keep moving from room to room with saryn because when enemies get to a significant level saryn dies in basically one hit so you have to keep a molt up. At that point, they have significant health pools so you have to add damage or reduce their health. Toxic lash, or miasma. Those cost energy and if you don't have efficiency or a rage variant you HAVE to use energy pizzas. 

I don't like that direction for her. 

I have made suggested changes based on this. Now. Trying to shut me up won't work because I have experience with saryn and the fact that this is a feedback forum. 

Here's the facts. Adapt to the situation like you keep telling people so rudely. Quit insulting people.

It makes you look like you have no idea what's going on. 

But that's my whole point!! The issue of spores not spreading is only because you are trying to apply spores to enemies that are too weak...and/or you apply them to 1-2 that are not anywhere near other enemies. In both cases, you are wasting energy unnecessarily. 

The cool thing about Saryn is that despite removing energy regen of toxic lash, she's super energy efficient now IF you don't waste spores in spots where they aren't needed. And the cases you list above are exactly such cases. If spores straight up kill enemies too quickly, you've used them against enemies that are too weak to warrant their use. So of course you'll run out of energy. But that isn't a problem with spores, it's you using the wrong ability for the content you are fighting. 

And the second you get to enemies that warrant their use, spreading spores is a total non issue. I use the spore button maybe once a minute at the start of MOT, less after the first 30min. 

Also, you can totally move around quickly with her because you don't have to stand still to spread spores...especially if you use weapons that make it easy. You don't even need good aim with her. Enter a room, pop molt in the centre (and don't cross the line of fire), spread spores. But again, that's at higher levels. At lower levels, just toxic lash is basically enough to kill stuff...and enemy damage obviously shouldn't be an issue there either.

A good exercise to learn how to dodge stuff is taking Banshee into the sim against 20 bombards. Don't focus on killing them, just practice dodging them as long as possible with parkour. This helps with ALL frames at higher level content, movement is (imo) more important than whatever tank you have. At one point, you get one-shot anyway, so movement is your true tank. And if I pop molt, I don't just stop moving...I keep on rolling because there might be enemies around that see me but not molt, in which case they obviously shoot at me, not molt. Lifeofrio has a pretty good Banshee video highlighting the importance of movement...it's the only way it's possible to take Banshee into high level solo content for example. 

Look, all I'm saying is that imo you haven't spent enough time testing in what situation to use what abilities. I run at 100 efficiency at all levels and never run out of energy...with Zenurik. I need 125 energy once a minute at high levels and a bit less than that at lower levels. That's suuuuuper easy to get. But that's because I don't mindlessly waste energy on spores when their use isn't needed. She's very very energy efficient if you use her correctly. 

And again, me pointing out that imo you aren't using her correctly isn't being rude or an attack...it's an observation because I and others seem to have no issue when it comes to the points you list. 

When the changes happened, the first thing I did was spend a whole afternoon in the sim testing her against different enemies at different levels...because old Saryn was one of my top 3 favorite frames. If you do that, you'll figure out when to use what combo of her abilities in order to be as energy efficient as possible. I was pissed off about losing toxic lash's energy regen at first, until I realized that she's no longer a spammer. I don't have any energy mods like streamline or flow.

Trying to apply spores against content that is too weak or too spread out is akin to bringing an F1 race car to a go-cart race and then wondering why you end up in the field behind the race track after trying to go full speed on a 30m stretch. Doesn't mean F1 cars are bad, it means the driver isn't using the right tool for the task. Saryn has all the tools you need up to stupid levels, but you have to pick the right tool for the right content. 

You would have a legit case if spores died too quickly and she didn't have any other abilities to make up for that...but her other abilities are AMAZING at slaughtering stuff, so it's not really a good argument.

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

But that's my whole point!! The issue of spores not spreading is only because you are trying to apply spores to enemies that are too weak...and/or you apply them to 1-2 that are not anywhere near other enemies. In both cases, you are wasting energy unnecessarily. 

The cool thing about Saryn is that despite removing energy regen of toxic lash, she's super energy efficient now IF you don't waste spores in spots where they aren't needed. And the cases you list above are exactly such cases. If spores straight up kill enemies too quickly, you've used them against enemies that are too weak to warrant their use. So of course you'll run out of energy. But that isn't a problem with spores, it's you using the wrong ability for the content you are fighting. 

And the second you get to enemies that warrant their use, spreading spores is a total non issue. I use the spore button maybe once a minute at the start of MOT, less after the first 30min. 

Also, you can totally move around quickly with her because you don't have to stand still to spread spores...especially if you use weapons that make it easy. You don't even need good aim with her. Enter a room, pop molt in the centre (and don't cross the line of fire), spread spores. But again, that's at higher levels. At lower levels, just toxic lash is basically enough to kill stuff...and enemy damage obviously shouldn't be an issue there either.

A good exercise to learn how to dodge stuff is taking Banshee into the sim against 20 bombards. Don't focus on killing them, just practice dodging them as long as possible with parkour. This helps with ALL frames at higher level content, movement is (imo) more important than whatever tank you have. At one point, you get one-shot anyway, so movement is your true tank. And if I pop molt, I don't just stop moving...I keep on rolling because there might be enemies around that see me but not molt, in which case they obviously shoot at me, not molt. Lifeofrio has a pretty good Banshee video highlighting the importance of movement...it's the only way it's possible to take Banshee into high level solo content for example. 

Look, all I'm saying is that imo you haven't spent enough time testing in what situation to use what abilities. I run at 100 efficiency at all levels and never run out of energy...with Zenurik. I need 125 energy once a minute at high levels and a bit less than that at lower levels. That's suuuuuper easy to get. But that's because I don't mindlessly waste energy on spores when their use isn't needed. She's very very energy efficient if you use her correctly. 

And again, me pointing out that imo you aren't using her correctly isn't being rude or an attack...it's an observation because I and others seem to have no issue when it comes to the points you list. 

When the changes happened, the first thing I did was spend a whole afternoon in the sim testing her against different enemies at different levels. If you do that, you'll figure out when to use what combo of her abilities in order to be as energy efficient as possible. I was pissed off about losing toxic lash's energy regen at first, until I realized that she's no longer a spammer. I don't have any energy mods like streamline or flow.

Trying to apply spores against content that is too weak or too spread out is akin to bringing an F1 race car to a go-cart race and then wondering why you end up in the field behind the race track after trying to go full speed on a 30m stretch. Doesn't mean F1 cars are bad, it means the driver isn't using the right tool for the task. Saryn has all the tools you need up to stupid levels, but you have to pick the right tool for the right content. 

You would have a legit case if spores would die too quickly and she didn't have any other abilities to make up for that...but her other abilities are AMAZING at slaughtering stuff, so it's not really a good argument.

Level 200 enemies is too weak events to use it on? You wrote a whole bunch of a contradictory statement there. 

You use spores in mot right at the start.Where enemies are roughly level 40~50.

But(as you say) I, who has run multitudes of saryns(that have wildly different stats except range and have said before that she works well with specific builds which you also neglect to have read), have ran through lvl 200 enemies using saryn. And that's too weak of enemies?

Really? 

You want to contradict yourself more? 

You seem to think that I think she's weak. I do not. I think she's the most damaging offensive frame in the game.

I do not, however, like her current mechanics and have been explaining to you that for the better part of a few days now. 

Subsequently when I explain the things I don't like, you think I'm doing badly with her.

Now. 

Unless my suggested changes would make your experience with her worse, please let it end here, because you refuse to take your own advice and adapt to not insulting people, as well as in general ignoring the entire issue at hand of

THIS. IS. A. FEEDBACK. FORUM. WHERE. PEOPLE. GIVE. FEEDBACK. 

It doesn't make them wrong to give feedback to things they think would make the game better. Calling people dumb, insulting them, or otherwise being belligerent only makes YOU look bad.

[SyBuhr]

22 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

1) Toxin mods scale from base damage (after base damage increase mods). Toxic lash scales from total damage after all mods (same as Rhino Roar).

2) Don't tell me that Saryn 2.0 didn't have damage, this hasn't changed. And I have no problem taking the back seat, allowing someone else to get kills and doing just the thing you said she can't do now - having fun with different weapons and debuffing - and doing some more damage only when my team needs it.

3) You can make more different builds for her now than ever. One of these builds is debuff - range, some efficiency and good duration, not really needed to add a lot of str. Besides - she can now debuff with Spores (corrosive procs) AND Miasma (viral). So actually she can debuff better.

(and when you complained about Miasma you totally forgot the 5m increased base range, 2s increased base duration, 25 less base cost and the fact that it now does proc a status effect) 

4) For someone who claims to usually spread spores with Ignis I don't see how Toxic Lash not giving energy when hitting enemies with melee would affect you at all. And the change isn't really noticeable (saying that as someone who actually used and still uses Toxic Lash). Spores cost 1/2 to cast on new targets while active, Toxic Lash now has higher duration and Miasma costs less energy - Saryn is quite the opposite of what you say, she uses less energy now.

EDIT: 5) Also, saying corrosive on spores doesn't matter as people use corrosive projection? Well, maybe people don't have to use corrosive projection as often now? Why do they even use it now - because some players told them that they need it vs armor...but most people don't do endurance runs where they actually need it. And there are other ways to deal with armored targets as well. Use something like Enemy Sense, Energy Siphon, Growing Power etc...

 

Basically most of your given arguments are just FALSE information. Fake news. I don't have a problem with people having different opinion but stating that opinion as facts and continually refusing to listen when someone explains where you might have misunderstood something is frustrating. 

Please test more or just...stop spreading misleading info.

 

Repeating again. Saryn is great now. Also after doing regular starchart, PoE or fissure missions where enemy density is lower she feels great as you can just have fun and fully use all of her abilities just fine.

Instead of ad-libbing my quote, you could stand to read it.

I never stated once saryn 2.0 didn't have damage. Infact, you could hit 12k damage ticks in 2 seconds. I did state Saryn 2.0 Did do a lot of damage, that much didn't really change, just how you got to those damage numbers and at what speed. Again, if you read my posts, which you didn't, you'd know that.

No, you really can't make different builds for her. What are you going to build for, exactly? Spamming Miasma for 50-75 base energy every 2 seconds? Building for Toxic Lash, which drops off at higher levels? Build for Molt? No, it is clear that the only builds now truly revolve around spore. And let me be blunt, they always sort of have. However, now it is more exacerbated on that, as that is not only her main draw now with the Damage out put it provides, but also the basis of the only two other synergies her kit contains.

You miss the point, Toxic lash lost an important aspect of its synergy with Spores that rewarded players for going and using it over using Miasma.

No, people will still use CP, because for literally doing nothing, you strip something like 30% of ALL enemies armor in the game. It is still more powerful than spores, in that regard. An instant removal of the hardest-scaling aspect enemies have is much more potent than singling out a group.

Basically, if you read my posts, you'd understand my critiques.

Saryn is great. As a DPS frame. Which you would have understood if you read my posts. I have literally no contention with that.

So please, read before speaking.

[MasaJin]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

You didn't read many of my posts. You're just focusing on things I said that you don't like. 

Here's a brief look into it. 

I have bunches of builds for saryn. All of them have range at 190% minimum. 

(Keyword here) MOST of those builds don't work well because they don't have either efficiency or rage variant.

The ones that do work well I have problems with because they can straight kill enemies after a while and then reset. I don't really have a problem with them reseting, I have a problem with them not spreading. You see, in my experience, almost all the enemies with spores die at once regardless of when they spread them. It's going to happen.

From what I've seen, it's generally not well advised to keep moving from room to room with saryn because when enemies get to a significant level saryn dies in basically one hit so you have to keep a molt up. At that point, they have significant health pools so you have to add damage or reduce their health. Toxic lash, or miasma. Those cost energy and if you don't have efficiency or a rage variant you HAVE to use energy pizzas. 

I don't like that direction for her. 

I have made suggested changes based on this. Now. Trying to shut me up won't work because I have experience with saryn and the fact that this is a feedback forum. 

Here's the facts. Adapt to the situation like you keep telling people so rudely. Quit insulting people.

It makes you look like you have no idea what's going on. 

At this point ignore them they seem yo only want to derail the thread after a couple of tests in more open area missions with less spawns and tests against different factions i feel as if her effectiveness is turned more vs grineer cus the armor stripping everyone is on about. She went from the only viral frame spreader to the most efficient armor destroyer do you think we could work both in among her abilities without "X"ing out the other?

[(PSN)Radehx]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

Level 200 enemies is too weak events to use it on? You wrote a whole bunch of a contradictory statement there. 

You use spores in mot right at the start.Where enemies are roughly level 40~50.

But(as you say) I, who has run multitudes of saryns(that have wildly different stats except range and have said before that she works well with specific builds which you also neglect to have read), have ran through lvl 200 enemies using saryn. And that's too weak of enemies?

Really? 

You want to contradict yourself more? 

You seem to think that I think she's weak. I do not. I think she's the most damaging offensive frame in the game.

I do not, however, like her current mechanics and have been explaining to you that for the better part of a few days now. 

Subsequently when I explain the things I don't like, you think I'm doing badly with her.

Now. 

Unless my suggested changes would make your experience with her worse, please let it end here, because you refuse to take your own advice and adapt to not insulting people, as well as in general ignoring the entire issue at hand of

THIS. IS. A. FEEDBACK. FORUM. WHERE. PEOPLE. GIVE. FEEDBACK. 

It doesn't make them wrong to give feedback to things they think would make the game better. Calling people dumb, insulting them, or otherwise being belligerent only makes YOU look bad.

You have issues spreading spores because either you are utterly incompetent in using her, or you try to apply them against the wrong content. You whine about spreading spore mechanics but then list examples that make it crystal clear you are using it against the wrong content. I wasn’t the one listing those examples, you did.

No idea where you got the lvl200 stuff, but it goes without saying that if you struggle to spread spores at those levels, you are simply a bad Saryn player. Not an attack, that’s a fact.

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[DjKaplis]

Hmm by the way if I understand correctly your reasoning for spores also spreading on death by spore damage (at 1/2 or 1/4 range) was so that they would be easier to keep up? You mentioned several quite performance heavy coding tasks after (as spread and damage increase conditions) and having more than one Saryn on team raising the max amount of spores that enemies can have...I summarize to make my post shorter but I hope I got your point.

 

Here are some problems with your suggestions that I can think of:

1)this (so many variables for spores) would drop overall PC performance of saryn - pings, ram, some lags maybe. Which is the thing they were trying to avoid with new spore mechanic and also already replied somewhere about more Saryns and spore count - it would drop performance therefore it is unlikely these changes would be too good.

2) usually spores can run out of damage only when they acumulate too high damage for current enemies and they are killed from spore damage before you can spread them further or new enemies can spawn. Current decay mechanic therefore is actually brilliant as you can't comfortably have several thousand spore damage and have no problems of keeping them up. It makes sense, spores aren't meant to instantaneously destroy anything that comes in range, that would not be fair. We need that decay to rein in our spore damage. 

That's only fair that if you want to do high damage with Saryn you SHOULD be working hard to keep it up otherwise everything around just dies without any effort and I for example don't want that. I prefer high investment, high reward type of play (as she also had at her 2.0 - to do really well wih her just casting spores and after ignoring them didn't work). 

[DjKaplis]

17 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

So please, read before speaking.

I did read your posts and it is clear to me that most of your arguments are either trying to mislead people with less knowledge on Saryn who might be reading this or entirely based on false information. Repeating same false facts again and again and refusing to listen when someone points that out.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

2 minutes ago, DjKaplis said:

Hmm by the way if I understand correctly your reasoning for spores also spreading on death by spore damage (at 1/2 or 1/4 range) was so that they would be easier to keep up? You mentioned several quite performance heavy coding tasks after (as spread and damage increase conditions) and having more than one Saryn on team raising the max amount of spores that enemies can have...I summarize to make my post shorter but I hope I got your point.

 

Here are some problems with your suggestions that I can think of:

1)this (so many variables for spores) would drop overall PC performance of saryn - pings, ram, some lags maybe. Which is the thing they were trying to avoid with new spore mechanic and also already replied somewhere about more Saryns and spore count - it would drop performance therefore it is unlikely these changes would be too good.

2) usually spores can run out of damage only when they acumulate too high damage for current enemies and they are killed from spore damage before you can spread them further or new enemies can spawn. Current decay mechanic therefore is actually brilliant as you can't comfortably have several thousand spore damage and have no problems of keeping them up. It makes sense, spores aren't meant to instantaneously destroy anything that comes in range, that would not be fair. We need that decay to rein in our spore damage. 

That's only fair that if you want to do high damage with Saryn you SHOULD be working hard to keep it up otherwise everything around just dies without any effort and I for example don't want that. I prefer high investment, high reward type of play (as she also had at her 2.0 - to do really well wih her just casting spores and after ignoring them didn't work). 

1) I won't argue on the performance issue because I do understand that it's severely taxing. It's a fair point 

2) from there I can see why more saryn's with this spread would be too much for the system. Much appreciated. 

3) the spores that spread on spore death would only deal base damage. The act of spreading them yourself(or allies because enemies killed by allies kills spores reliably with no spread) is what causes the damage to be dealt. 

I'm not saying it's perfect, it's just good suggestions that's hard to balance because infinity

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

You have issues spreading spores because either you are utterly incompetent in using her, or you try to apply them against the wrong content. You whine about spreading spore mechanics but then list examples that make it crystal clear you are using it against the wrong content. I wasn’t the one listing those examples, you did.

No idea where you got the lvl200 stuff, but it goes without saying that if you struggle to spread spores at those levels, you are simply a bad Saryn player. Not an attack, that’s a fact.

Ignoring everything I even said. 

Insulting again. 

Good job. 

You've proven my point that you have nothing to add constructively and hence, less than nothing to add to the conversation. You have achieved troll status, thus, will be ignored

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

27 minutes ago, MasaJin said:

At this point ignore them they seem yo only want to derail the thread after a couple of tests in more open area missions with less spawns and tests against different factions i feel as if her effectiveness is turned more vs grineer cus the armor stripping everyone is on about. She went from the only viral frame spreader to the most efficient armor destroyer do you think we could work both in among her abilities without "X"ing out the other?

My suggestion for changes actually includes both playstyles fairly well I believe. 

Let me know your feedback on it, won't you? 

And yes, he's being ignored now because he's proven incapable of coherent conversation outside of insulting. 

[(PSN)Radehx]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

Ignoring everything I even said. 

Insulting again. 

Good job. 

You've proven my point that you have nothing to add constructively and hence, less than nothing to add to the conversation. You have achieved troll status, thus, will be ignored

Again, YOU listed the very examples highlighting that you are hellbent in applying spores in dumb spots against content that doesn’t need spores’ de buff/damage. You are complaining about stuff dying too quickly and you struggling to spread spores, which CLEARLY is only an issue if you try using spores against the wrong content.

It’s a bit like complaining that you run out of energy trying to stack 10 sonars onto a lvl35 Butcher. The problem isn’t sonar’s energy usage, it’s you not using that tool correctly.

Feel free to ignore me, but that doesn’t change the fact that your complaints are akin to someone whining about not being able to build a house with a Barbie doll instead of using the right tools for the job 😉

If you are unwilling to think logically about abilities, you will have a bad time with a lot of frames...

And funny enough you accuse me of being a troll after I responded to the content of your post while your entire post is devoid of content and nothing but an insult. I think you should buy a mirror 😉

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[DjKaplis]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

1) I won't argue on the performance issue because I do understand that it's severely taxing. It's a fair point 

2) from there I can see why more saryn's with this spread would be too much for the system. Much appreciated. 

3) the spores that spread on spore death would only deal base damage. The act of spreading them yourself(or allies because enemies killed by allies kills spores reliably with no spread) is what causes the damage to be dealt. 

I'm not saying it's perfect, it's just good suggestions that's hard to balance because infinity

Hmm that condition that spores have more than base damage only when spread by self or 1/2 of ramp up when spread by allies, kind of like Saryn 2.0 did with toxin procs, not bad. That would leave only the performance issues to question I guess.

Well anyway my feedback stays that I really like her as she is right now and DE should give some more love to frames that indeed need changes more.

[SyBuhr]

1 minute ago, MasaJin said:

At this point ignore them they seem yo only want to derail the thread after a couple of tests in more open area missions with less spawns and tests against different factions i feel as if her effectiveness is turned more vs grineer cus the armor stripping everyone is on about. She went from the only viral frame spreader to the most efficient armor destroyer do you think we could work both in among her abilities without "X"ing out the other?

I don't honestly believe they want to de-rail the conversation. I think they are legitimately concerned that the new, top-dps frame will be taken away from them, and I understand that as much as the next person. I just don't think they understand the point of contention some players hold from her 2.0 stages, and thus gravitate towards, "She does good DPS, stop whining".

Yes, she is now more tuned vs. Grineer and Corrupted, since spores are corrosive now, and the synergies that build off of spores.

She is still good at killing infested and Corpus, just not with the basis of her kit, and thus she loses two important synergies because of it.

I mean, yeah she does shred armor... If the team doesn't use Corrosive Projection. (The most used in PUGs, from roughly 100 missions, 2/3's of them had 2 or more with Corrosive projection)

 

I think it is entirely possible to keep both fields happy in this regard. I have drafted several ideas to achieve it. Making her more viable in Open zones is a simple matter of potentially making spores a small AOE cast, rather than what we have now. It'd allow for more initial Patient-Zeroes, and help the initial spread. Considering there is already a hard-cap on the ramp-up, this won't be an issue, because many players will already see that number go up quickly now regardless. All this does is reward the Saryn for choosing more targets initially, rather than spamming spore non-stop. The drafted idea I came up with holds several other minor benefits, and some drawbacks to keep it from being outrageous, while still keeping it in line with what we have currently, DPS-wise. The hypothetical would also alleviate double-Saryn issues, but only at the minute levels; It wouldn't be a fix to that in particular.

Having the only ability apply viral keep you rooted is not something you want to do as a squishy frame. My suggestions are to allow it to uniquely spread Spores once per target, and then constantly apply a viral debuff to those around her while active. It'd remove the spam-4 mentality, It'd get the people who loved her viral debuff to now potentially mod for that over spores, and make Saryn more mobile. This should be the change moving forward, because if people really are using all of her abilities, that won't change with this, while also encouraging people to use Toxic Lash more for it's synergy.

Completely rework molt. As a flight mechanic, it is mediocre at best. My suggestion was to make it more of an engage tool, rather than a sometimes-useful disengage. The drafted idea rewards Saryn for using it as a means of cover for her team, when there are a lot of enemies around, or when a team-mate goes down, offering her a slight return to that team-oriented ideology that I complain she lacks now.

 

Of course, those are all drafted, and I honestly have no desire to update them.

Just now, DjKaplis said:

I did read your posts and it is clear to me that most of your arguments are either trying to mislead people with less knowledge on Saryn who might be reading this or entirely based on false information. Repeating same false facts again and again and refusing to listen when someone points that out.

No, you clearly did not. I've never argued against her DPS. I've stated her mechanics are clunky, and that's a fact. I've stated the basis of her entire kit is not useful for low-mid levels, which is true (accounts for roughly over half of what the entire game offers), everyone's agreed on that. You'd see that slowly, my stance from day 1, to now has changed. Not drastically, but it has changed slightly. It doesn't change my thoughts on her Design, however. I think her DPS is great, but I think mechanically, she is clunky to use, and poor to use in Open-World, the future direction of Warframe. I've solo'd Sortie (Spy, Rescue, Mobile Defense) with her, with Rescue having limited energy (Think it dropped me to 75 total energy). She is a power-house, DPS wise, and I've never contended that outside certain conditions that may (and do) affect her over-all performance, that are out of the player's control. Team-wise, she is atrocious, and I've already stated my contentions regarding that (and you'd know that if you did read my posts).

I've stated that this design direction removes an important part of her identity, in favor of becoming purely focused on DPS, also true. Not once have I seen a Miasma-built player. Why? It is not cost-effective for what you have to do, and what you get out of it. I haven't seen a molt-build player, which you could find in her 2.0 time (though it was OP and Campy AF). Why don't we see pure Toxic Lash builds anymore? Because again, for what it offers (and as a synergy that builds off of something guaranteed to kill), why? To put it into perspective, I can go with a Nekros (This is Squad, so there are Comms, bear that in mind), and go for roughly 1 and half hours Mot. We both can Duo Sorties just fine. It says something about her DPS. I've had contentions with her in missions with other DPS frames, which is just how it's going to be when you have more than 1 DPS frame, but could have been avoided if her abilities were planned out a bit more.

But as a support, as a Debuff frame, you cannot do that as well as you could before. I've never held success building for Miasma in Duo Sorties, with comms. 

That all said, I am not sure how you can say that this is all false information. Again, to make my stance clear, I am not advocating nerfs to her DPS, I think to a point, she needed it. I am advocating a change to allow her to be more suitable to teams, rather than the current playstyle that is forced to her as becoming a pure DPS frame. She's currently another DPS frame, in a game that is Inundated with DPS frames. If you give it 3-4 months, she's going to take a big hit, because the Developers will see what a monster she is for the highest level content that isn't open world. It isn't a good design, her design has remained archaic in nature from her 1.0 times, and it isn't healthy.

That, is the basis of my contention. If you disagree with that, if you like her as a DPS, that is fine. However, I am allowed to hold those thoughts without invalidation for it. If you think for a moment, I'd want to snatch away a DPS frame from a horde-shooter, you've clearly mis-read something somewhere.

If all you are going to do, is sit there and state that my opinion in a feedback forum is invalid, that's just piss-poor on your part. I have a right (to an extent) to disagree with you, as you do to me. However, I have stated my player experiences, roughly 70% of which was relatively negative in PUGs. That's not a good thing, and it is indicative of something seriously wrong, that wasn't wrong during her 1.0 or 2.0 times, and spanning various builds (Miasma, Toxic Lash, and yes, even Molt despite it not really offering anything). If I could say, "Yep, it's all my fault, I can't play" I'd shut my trap, but that's not the case. I've poured hours into my frames, and making them as efficient as I can. From Day-1 of this rework, I've practically played nothing but Saryn (Played Equinox once, just to relieve myself the tedium). Again, all I am advocating for, is a change to her kit that makes her ultimately better for teams, and potentially even better for Solo. The only reason I don't post my fullest thoughts is because you have certain other individuals who instantly decry it, and frankly, these forums are not worth my time above answering and replying.

 

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

8 minutes ago, DjKaplis said:

Hmm that condition that spores have more than base damage only when spread by self or 1/2 of ramp up when spread by allies, kind of like Saryn 2.0 did with toxin procs, not bad. That would leave only the performance issues to question I guess.

Well anyway my feedback stays that I really like her as she is right now and DE should give some more love to frames that indeed need changes more.

that's entirely fair. If you like her the way she is, that's great. Have fun(legitimately. Not sarcasm)

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

20 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

I don't honestly believe they want to de-rail the conversation. I think they are legitimately concerned that the new, top-dps frame will be taken away from them, and I understand that as much as the next person. I just don't think they understand the point of contention some players hold from her 2.0 stages, and thus gravitate towards, "She does good DPS, stop whining".

I don't feel you're wrong, but I personally refuse to accept anything that is said by someone that continuously insults people.

I've given said person many opportunities to accomplish this, but they refuse to. Even so far as their most recent post.

Speaking of posts, would you mind giving me some feedback on my suggested changes to saryn?

I'm going to revise it again to not stack multiple saryn spores because as someone stated, it would be super laggy for the system

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)Kairu_Aname
Spelling edits

[MasaJin]

1 hour ago, SyBuhr said:

I don't honestly believe they want to de-rail the conversation. I think they are legitimately concerned that the new, top-dps frame will be taken away from them, and I understand that as much as the next person. I just don't think they understand the point of contention some players hold from her 2.0 stages, and thus gravitate towards, "She does good DPS, stop whining".

Yes, she is now more tuned vs. Grineer and Corrupted, since spores are corrosive now, and the synergies that build off of spores.

She is still good at killing infested and Corpus, just not with the basis of her kit, and thus she loses two important synergies because of it.

I mean, yeah she does shred armor... If the team doesn't use Corrosive Projection. (The most used in PUGs, from roughly 100 missions, 2/3's of them had 2 or more with Corrosive projection)

 

I think it is entirely possible to keep both fields happy in this regard. I have drafted several ideas to achieve it. Making her more viable in Open zones is a simple matter of potentially making spores a small AOE cast, rather than what we have now. It'd allow for more initial Patient-Zeroes, and help the initial spread. Considering there is already a hard-cap on the ramp-up, this won't be an issue, because many players will already see that number go up quickly now regardless. All this does is reward the Saryn for choosing more targets initially, rather than spamming spore non-stop. The drafted idea I came up with holds several other minor benefits, and some drawbacks to keep it from being outrageous, while still keeping it in line with what we have currently, DPS-wise. The hypothetical would also alleviate double-Saryn issues, but only at the minute levels; It wouldn't be a fix to that in particular.

Having the only ability apply viral keep you rooted is not something you want to do as a squishy frame. My suggestions are to allow it to uniquely spread Spores once per target, and then constantly apply a viral debuff to those around her while active. It'd remove the spam-4 mentality, It'd get the people who loved her viral debuff to now potentially mod for that over spores, and make Saryn more mobile. This should be the change moving forward, because if people really are using all of her abilities, that won't change with this, while also encouraging people to use Toxic Lash more for it's synergy.

Completely rework molt. As a flight mechanic, it is mediocre at best. My suggestion was to make it more of an engage tool, rather than a sometimes-useful disengage. The drafted idea rewards Saryn for using it as a means of cover for her team, when there are a lot of enemies around, or when a team-mate goes down, offering her a slight return to that team-oriented ideology that I complain she lacks now.

That would be nice the aoe cast but what would make her skills work together more like before 

The sporeing molt was like a mine why not just make it so spores dont spread if u poped molt or enemies have to shoot molt for spores to spread or once spores are on molt that skill is locked till that molt is destroyed 

Toxic lash spreading toxic was felt like we were feeding spores with poison all of these would have more use if we droped the ram and damg of spored again making it so u had to use synergies to get similar or better effect to what we have now as adding energy regain back to lash would help with all those skills being casted

Miasma i at this point don't know where it would go other than removing it as a damg dealing skill and it being a aoe debuff or cc with better duration and keep it as a helper to spreading spores

Edited June 13, 2018 by MasaJin

[DjKaplis]

18 hours ago, SyBuhr said:

Read it, just shortening post.

I'm sorry that somehow your experience has been bad. But I'm going to repeat - most of your arguments are false or based on false presumptions on how her abilities work. I have played her in many different variations, more than enough to compare before and after. And so have the other people on this thread who have played her. But I guess maybe you are one of those people who can't adjust and need someone to figure out how to set up and play for you. 

For your sake I hope someone indeed makes a debuff/ toxic lash etc tutorials for new Saryn, I will keep enjoying playing her in the meanwhile.

Edited June 14, 2018 by DjKaplis

[(PSN)Radehx]

I ran into another Saryn last night and he was complaining about how "unreliable" and "uneffective" molt is. I love molt so shadowed him a bit because we didn't need 2 Saryn's sporing around. Long story short, here are a few pointers which might make people rethink their opinion of molt...

Molt is very reliable in pulling aggro. In fact, you can dance next to a whole bunch of enemies in total safety as long as you follow a couple of important guidelines. 

Molt seems to work on a line of sight basis. In short, enemies need to see molt for it to pull aggro away from you. Any enemies that can see you but not molt, because a column blocks molt for example, will fire at you. The chap I played with yesterday placed his molt in stupid spots 50% of the time and the aggro pulling thing was totally fixed once he realized this. 

In the big round room with the balconies in MOT for example, if you place molt below the balcony, every enemy on that balcony will not see molt and fire at you if they spot you. This isn't radial blind! You constantly have to think about where enemies are coming from and then place molt in a spot that is visible for those enemies...and make sure you don't get yourself in situations where enemies see you but not molt. This isn't all that hard once you figure out tilesets. 

Also, molt's tank is boosted by receiving damage in the first 3sec after casting. This too has a profound impact on how best to use molt. 

If there is only one enemy around and you cast molt before killing that enemy, your molt will be weak...and not ready to work against the horde about to come through the door. It will die quickly and you will have wasted energy for no sane reason. 

You want as much damage on molt during the first 3sec after casting! This means you have to get the hell away from molt after casting so enemies quickly and properly start firing at molt. And of course that's exactly where the speed boost comes in handy...it helps you getting the hell away from molt quickly, allowing it to pull aggro and improve its tank. Molt now scales with enemy levels, use this! 

One of my standard moves is to cast molt (in a good spot), buzz off quickly with the speed boost and let enemies fire at it for 3sec. During that time, I flip around and line up my shot. After 3sec I hit them with my favorite weapon...currently a viral Hunter Munitions Zarr which either kills stuff or CCs it. I am now left with 50sec of molt with a properly charged up tank. 50sec of reliable CC that won't die unless I'm too slow with killing...which isn't that likely with Saryn. 

You can test this in the sim. Cast Miasma and then molt. By the time enemies start moving again, the 3sec molt invulnerability will have already passed...and you will notice molt will die super quick. If you let stuff fire at molt for 3sec before Miasma though, you'll end up with a much stronger molt. The Miasma-Molt synergy is quite good because you can cast it right after the first 3sec of molt to take pressure off it and wipe them all out. Let's you keep a strong molt for longer this way.

I don't give a rat's ass about its damage tbh, but its explosion is kinda handy to spread spores in the end. 

Casting molt doesn't mean you are now an unmovable rock! It is always possible for enemies to come from somewhere you haven't considered...somewhere where they can't see molt, but you. Always parkour, never stand still, roll yourself to happiness. You don't really need good aim with most weapons that work well for Saryn, you can afford to jump around like a crazy person. 

If enemies fire at molt..it helps greatly not to step into the line of fire. Even if they don't fire at you, if you are in the line of fire, you will get hit. This sounds obvious, but it's something I see happening a TON with Saryns at the moment. 

Don't just stand there right in front of enemies either. Molt is reliable, but yeah, if you get right up into an enemy's face...there's a chance he'll notice you.

In short:

1) Pay attention to line of sight. Make sure you place molt in spots where enemies can see it. Never get yourself in situations where enemies see you but not molt. Situational awareness matters.

2) Get as much damage on molt as possible during the first 3sec. This means you shouldn't spam molt without a lot of enemies around. I sometimes wait with killing enemies on purpose, just so I can quickly make my molt stronger. Those 3 enemies you just killed before popping molt could have helped you to make molt stronger! 

3) Never stand still, keep moving! This kinda goes for all frames at higher levels tbh...but it helps at lower levels too. 

4) Not stepping into the line of fire when enemies shoot at molt is generally considered a good idea.

As long as you follow that stuff, molt is totally reliable and survives quite well. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[SyBuhr]

1 hour ago, DjKaplis said:

I'm sorry that somehow your experience has been bad. But I'm going to repeat - most of your arguments are false or based on false presumtions on how her abilities work. I have played her in many different variations, more than enough to compare before and after. And so have the other people on this thread who have played her. But I guess maybe you are one of those people who can't adjust and need someone to figure out how to set up and play for you. 

For your sake I hope someone indeed makes a debuff/ toxic lash etc tutorials for new Saryn, I will keep enjoying playing her in the meanwhile.

You clearly have not read what I've posted. 

Good day.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

...

In short:

1) Pay attention to line of sight. Make sure you place molt in spots where enemies can see it. Never get yourself in situations where enemies see you but not molt. Situational awareness matters.

2) Get as much damage on molt as possible during the first 3sec. This means you shouldn't spam molt without a lot of enemies around. I sometimes wait with killing enemies on purpose, just so I can quickly make my molt stronger. Those 3 enemies you just killed before popping molt could have helped you to make molt stronger! 

3) Never stand still, keep moving! This kinda goes for all frames at higher levels tbh...but it helps at lower levels too. 

4) Not stepping into the line of fire when enemies shoot at molt is generally considered a good idea.

As long as you follow that stuff, molt is totally reliable and survives quite well. 

Molt has relatively always worked like that. Even so, there are times where enemies will still keep aggro on you, rather than Molt. It's always been like that, from 1.0 to now. I have noticed positive changes from her 1.0 to 2.0 time, though nothing catches my eye from 2.0 to 3.0, and now 3.5/3.x. Generally speaking, you'll probably run into that uneffectiveness in the Plains, given how open they are, and the finite aggro range of Molt. (Mortars will still target you from afar, despite molt being in LOS, enemies will still shoot at you, even if Molt is in-between them from time-to-time). It's really just how Molt is and has always been.

So molt is as reliable as it has always been, which, yes, if it is smack-dab in the middle of a lot of enemies, very reliable. But that really isn't where you want to be as a squishy frame, even after the buff to her armor is considered. Bearing in mind, some level geometry is not always the best for Molt, and positioning has always been a bit of tedium in a game that requires constant, fast-paced movements.

Edit: Alternatively, placing Molt in the Air is a sort of Quick Fix to that, which I think works best in general.

Generally speaking, it is an OK disengage mechanic, but I feel that it should have been replaced with something else entirely.

Edited June 13, 2018 by SyBuhr
Air-Glided Molt Tech.