Devstream #112 Overview

[MysteriousTenno]

"Vlad" doesn't look like vampyr sci-fi incarnation for me, nor his abilities strongly give that vibe, but he is look badass and cool. And when he come out, it would be insta buy for me! Though his armor...can it be optional? And chance to wear it in other warframes?

[DiabolusUrsus]

12 hours ago, Rauxa9 said:

non primes are present day iterations of the primes; non primes were used after the war when all the original primes were thought to be lost. The tenno try to recreate them and their power as best as they can.

Right, but how much time was there "after the war?" There is no indication that a large amount of time transpired between finishing the Sentient War and starting the slaughter of the Orokin; the first attack took place during a ceremony honoring the Tenno for victory.

How much time did they spend just wandering around post-Orokin? How long did it take take the Grineer Empire to show up? When were the Primes lost, and why? It HAD to be post-Orokin, or else it would have been simple to re-create lost Primes. Yet all the lore quest tie-ins reward non-primes... 

12 hours ago, Rauxa9 said:

Vlad is a sentient hybrid, utilizing their tech and tenno tech based off Orokin designs for warframes and is with frames like Gara, titainia, harrow, etc on being new

Nope, I don't buy it. Gara explicitly dates back to the times of the first Sentient War. Harrow existed early enough that Lotus 

Didn't even know he existed.

Titania existed long enough in the past to protect an OROKIN scientist.

None of those frames were created present-day or even pre-Cryo. If Vlad's design is even permissible in the lore to begin with it would have to be a modern creation for it to make any sort of sense... Making him the first confirmed "Tenno original" design (and making his inevitable Prime release also lore-breaking).

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Right, but how much time was there "after the war?" There is no indication that a large amount of time transpired between finishing the Sentient War and starting the slaughter of the Orokin; the first attack took place during a ceremony honoring the Tenno for victory.

 

We can assume that alot of time didn't pass when the war with the sentients ended and they celebrated the victory because why wait long to celebrate the victory of a war that could probably end them?

 

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

How much time did they spend just wandering around post-Orokin? How long did it take take the Grineer Empire to show up? When were the Primes lost, and why? It HAD to be post-Orokin, or else it would have been simple to re-create lost Primes. Yet all the lore quest tie-ins reward non-primes... 

A timeframe is unknown but through the synthesis scans it can be seen that they were around for a while after the fall of the orokin. The grineer empire wasn't an empire at first, it began with the rebellion as seen with the few synthesis text with them presumably making an orokin as their leader.

As for the question of when primes were lost, it's hard to say. We don't have anything to conclude why prime tech was lost or why all quest reward tenno version of warframes. It could simply just be game mechanics separate from the lore since DE doesn't make primes of a new warframe when released. 

What makes sense to me and can be safely assumed, is that at after the fall of the orokin, the tenno didn't have access to the orokin technology that allowed the forging of prime warframes/weapons and had to copy the designs and make due with that. This can also apply to Gara. since her fight with the sentient was after the fall of the orokin.

Honestly, I'm thinking that the tenno warframes were actually the base warframes like protoypes before being reforged with orokin tech which can explain why they come first but something keeps nagging me that that's not right.

 

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

7 hours ago, MysteriousTenno said:

"Vlad" doesn't look like vampyr sci-fi incarnation for me, nor his abilities strongly give that vibe, but he is look badass and cool. And when he come out, it would be insta buy for me! Though his armor...can it be optional? And chance to wear it in other warframes?

He draws more from the revenant/eidolon inspiration than a vampire-themed warframe.

[ADRAKATA9]

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Right, but how much time was there "after the war?" There is no indication that a large amount of time transpired between finishing the Sentient War and starting the slaughter of the Orokin; the first attack took place during a ceremony honoring the Tenno for victory.

How much time did they spend just wandering around post-Orokin? How long did it take take the Grineer Empire to show up? When were the Primes lost, and why? It HAD to be post-Orokin, or else it would have been simple to re-create lost Primes. Yet all the lore quest tie-ins reward non-primes... 

Nope, I don't buy it. Gara explicitly dates back to the times of the first Sentient War. Harrow existed early enough that Lotus 

 

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Didn't even know he existed.

 

Titania existed long enough in the past to protect an OROKIN scientist.

None of those frames were created present-day or even pre-Cryo. If Vlad's design is even permissible in the lore to begin with it would have to be a modern creation for it to make any sort of sense... Making him the first confirmed "Tenno original" design (and making his inevitable Prime release also lore-breaking).

based off of Orokin designs meaning that he is made the same way warframes are at base, and that he is as new as Gara and the rest realease wise, not lore wise. 

Lore wise (problably, not exact), he's relatively new unless he was a project that was in the dark for a while and everyone is just now knowing about it.

[DiabolusUrsus]

55 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

We can assume that alot of time didn't pass when the war with the sentients ended and they celebrated the victory because why wait long to celebrate the victory of a war that could probably end them?

That's literally what I just said.

55 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

A timeframe is unknown but through the synthesis scans it can be seen that they were around for a while after the fall of the orokin. The grineer empire wasn't an empire at first, it began with the rebellion as seen with the few synthesis text with them presumably making an orokin as their leader.

I believe the Grineer rebellion coincided (roughly) with the Tenno assault on the Orokin. The resulting chaos and instability is what would have made the Orokin vulnerable enough for the rebellion to succeed.

55 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

As for the question of when primes were lost, it's hard to say. We don't have anything to conclude why prime tech was lost or why all quest reward tenno version of warframes. It could simply just be game mechanics separate from the lore since DE doesn't make primes of a new warframe when released.

Gameplay and story segregation is fair enough... But that's still pretty egregious and I would want to hear DE explain it as such instead of leaving us guessing over something that isn't even an actual story item.

55 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

What makes sense to me and can be safely assumed, is that at after the fall of the orokin, the tenno didn't have access to the orokin technology that allowed the forging of prime warframes/weapons and had to copy the designs and make due with that.

No, it's not a safe assumption at all. If that were the case it should be impossible to recover Primes by crafting them through the Foundry.

55 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

This can also apply to Gara. since her fight with the sentient was after the fall of the orokin.

Except unless Gara suffered an equally catastrophic defeat BEFORE fighting the Sentient, she should still have had her Prime.

55 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

Honestly, I'm thinking that the tenno warframes were actually the base warframes like protoypes before being reforged with orokin tech which can explain why they come first but something keeps nagging me that that's not right.

Seems especially wrong considering Ballas (the original designer) is the one unveiling all the Primes in the trailers.

44 minutes ago, Rauxa9 said:

based off of Orokin designs meaning that he is made the same way warframes are at base, and that he is as new as Gara and the rest realease wise, not lore wise. 

Lore wise (problably, not exact), he's relatively new unless he was a project that was in the dark for a while and everyone is just now knowing about it.

Obviously he is "new" release-wise. What does that have to do with his validity in terms of the lore?

Thing is we don't know anything at all about how he fits into the timeline. The main point of contention here is that based on the established lore combining a Warframe and anything Sentient seems entirely implausible.

[Urlan]

22 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

That's literally what I just said.

I believe the Grineer rebellion coincided (roughly) with the Tenno assault on the Orokin. The resulting chaos and instability is what would have made the Orokin vulnerable enough for the rebellion to succeed.

Gameplay and story segregation is fair enough... But that's still pretty egregious and I would want to hear DE explain it as such instead of leaving us guessing over something that isn't even an actual story item.

No, it's not a safe assumption at all. If that were the case it should be impossible to recover Primes by crafting them through the Foundry.

Except unless Gara suffered an equally catastrophic defeat BEFORE fighting the Sentient, she should still have had her Prime.

Seems especially wrong considering Ballas (the original designer) is the one unveiling all the Primes in the trailers.

Obviously he is "new" release-wise. What does that have to do with his validity in terms of the lore?

Thing is we don't know anything at all about how he fits into the timeline. The main point of contention here is that based on the established lore combining a Warframe and anything Sentient seems entirely implausible.

Ballas likely designed or ordered the Design of Primes, but didn't design regular warframes; that would have been the Orokin Scientist Titania defended in Silver Grove's backstory - Sylvanna, the lady that is now the Silver Grove awareness wise - similar to a Cephalon in a way. Outside of two primes that suggest that Tenno copies (though its not explained what are the copies as Corpus seem to make the Mk1) Primes are suggested as being made as rewards for particularly valued Tenno. Otherwise, I would agree quite a bit, the time-line doesn't support an Eidolon Warframes fitting in the timeline without time-travel. A prime of the warframe if the Eidolon Warframe is afflicted would be featuring a different look and power structure - a different warframe basically - while so far, nothing in game suggests Sentient and warframe can integrate to this point in the first place.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I believe the Grineer rebellion coincided (roughly) with the Tenno assault on the Orokin. The resulting chaos and instability is what would have made the Orokin vulnerable enough for the rebellion to succeed.

The grineer rebellion happened after sometime after the fall of the orokin, I wouldn't put it close to when the tenno went on their rampage but not too far either. 

 

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

No, it's not a safe assumption at all. If that were the case it should be impossible to recover Primes by crafting them through the Foundry.

We found their blueprints from orokin towers from the void. While I understand the reasoning but what I said is possibly the closest we can get to why we have base versions. 

 

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Except unless Gara suffered an equally catastrophic defeat BEFORE fighting the Sentient, she should still have had her Prime.

Seems especially wrong considering Ballas (the original designer) is the one unveiling all the Primes in the trailers.

 

Not that far fetched like your making it out to be. It makes sense on the pretense that we receive the base versions instead of the prime versions, but that might just be because DE doesn't make the prime version first. Titania's quest already showed that he isn't necessarily the person to builds the warframes with his own hands. The prime trailers only allude to Ballas creating the warframes and the reasons for why he created them.

He could be easily replaced with someone else narrating the trailers. I still think that the base versions were created first and then the prime versions later which would explain why we get the base versions first. Or it could be more like the prime version were only handed to the leaders or most prominent tenno like Urlan said. 

I still don't think that it is far-fetched for Ballas to create a warframe that can produce sentient energy, He's a mad scientist just like that.

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, ShadowExodus said:

The grineer rebellion happened after sometime after the fall of the orokin, I wouldn't put it close to when the tenno went on their rampage but not too far either. 

 

We found their blueprints from orokin towers from the void. While I understand the reasoning but what I said is possibly the closest we can get to why we have base versions. 

 

Not that far fetched like your making it out to be. It makes sense on the pretense that we receive the base versions instead of the prime versions, but that might just be because DE doesn't make the prime version first. Titania's quest already showed that he isn't necessarily the person to builds the warframes with his own hands. The prime trailers only allude to Ballas creating the warframes and the reasons for why he created them.

He could be easily replaced with someone else narrating the trailers. I still think that the base versions were created first and then the prime versions later which would explain why we get the base versions first. Or it could be more like the prime version were only handed to the leaders or most prominent tenno like Urlan said. 

I still don't think that it is far-fetched for Ballas to create a warframe that can produce sentient energy, He's a mad scientist just like that.

The Simaris lore puts the Grineer rebellion in full swing shortly following or close enough to the Orokin Elite Massacre, during this same round about time period called the Fall, the Sentient that would become the Eidolon was rampaging around ancient Earth (ER in Quill's lore entry from Saya's Vigil) and would eventually be taken down by Gara and Unum with some kind of Void bomb (maybe a small Void Cascade bomb) while the survivors of the Massacre tried to a escape a tower that had civilians as the infested were going amok and taking over. The Queens likely saw this as their chance to seize power and had their own Military Grineer throughout the Empire to move when weakness showed, alternatively Veytok organized his own rebellion that came under the Queen's control with no one else to overcome their commands. During the tail end of this period, we are winding down and going into cryostasis with a few saving Lorists, and potentially the Sands of Inaros' Tenno met their end against a storm of infested invading the lands of Baro's ancestors; it is also likely that Lotus moved Lua into the Void during this time; but it would be difficult then for the Arcane machines and Hunhow to know this unless the machines directly conveyed Lotus' actions to the Sentient forces as some theories believe. The survivors of the lower caste Orokin society eventually grouped together into family merchant units and started calling themselves the Corpus - an Orokin term for one's "family or skill teaching unit" becoming one of the great powers in the wake of the Fall. Eventually, the infested themselves were cleaned out except from small pockets according to the Lotus, those in the Derelict and perhaps Eris (that part is less clear) and were introduced around the waking of the Tenno much later by Dr. Tengus and maybe Alad V due to his experimentation on warframes.

As far as we know, Ballas didn't personally create warframes; but was in charge as an Executor of the projectl first through his love Archimedian Margulis who go the one who at least designed the orginals up to Titania, Silvana; an Orokin Scientist specializing in Technocyte bio-engineering. After Silvana fled the project as it was becoming directed towards the war by Ballas, the Executor sent Dax forces to kill her and burn her work on Earth to the ground. We get blueprints for the Titania that defended Silvana as she transferenced into the Grove and much like the other quest warframes, it is a normal model warframe versus a prime.Ballas however didn't stop the warframe project, and kept it going, even giving briefings and presentations to his fellow Executors about the improved Prime versions as displayed with the Prime Trailers. So I would agree on this point totally.

Part of the problem involving Ballas making a Sentient or particularly Eidolon Warframe as this one is called; is that Quill - a guy who can see both forward and backward in time as well as other parallel versions of the possibilities of the choices of these realities says Sentient are immune to Technocyte. We in Plague Star event use materials and plants that have been exposed to Eidolon energies to improve the poisoning of Hek's beloved Boil. On the other hand, warframes are meant to channel Void energy and use it to fuel themselves as we transference into them, and also power their abilities - such an situation that would degrade or disperse Sentient energies as displayed by the Eidolon Warframe's Breath of Eidolon leaking from its head and chest. Basically, making a Hybrid of such two materials being suggested impossible in-setting; and both having natures that would destroy the other if successful. To top this off, considering the Sentient energy is obviously Eidolon energy as the Devstream and Summary display; and it requires such a creature even if somehow successful to be created during a time-frame when the Orokin Empire was shattered and while Ballas seemingly found a way to cheat death; the Warframe project would have not been continued considering the Fall going down everywhere when Eidolons would have eventually formed in the centuries after Gara blowing the original huge Sentient up.

[Ozais]

Spoiler

 

[DiabolusUrsus]

8 hours ago, Urlan said:

Ballas likely designed or ordered the Design of Primes, but didn't design regular warframes; that would have been the Orokin Scientist Titania defended in Silver Grove's backstory - Sylvanna, the lady that is now the Silver Grove awareness wise - similar to a Cephalon in a way. Outside of two primes that suggest that Tenno copies (though its not explained what are the copies as Corpus seem to make the Mk1) Primes are suggested as being made as rewards for particularly valued Tenno. Otherwise, I would agree quite a bit, the time-line doesn't support an Eidolon Warframes fitting in the timeline without time-travel. A prime of the warframe if the Eidolon Warframe is afflicted would be featuring a different look and power structure - a different warframe basically - while so far, nothing in game suggests Sentient and warframe can integrate to this point in the first place.

Fair point; I forgot that there were some sub-contracted Warframes.

Also thanks for your second response; you said everything I was going to and covered some things I would have missed.

 

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

3 hours ago, Urlan said:

The Simaris lore puts the Grineer rebellion in full swing shortly following or close enough to the Orokin Elite Massacre, during this same round about time period called the Fall, the Sentient that would become the Eidolon was rampaging around ancient Earth (ER in Quill's lore entry from Saya's Vigil) and would eventually be taken down by Gara and Unum with some kind of Void bomb (maybe a small Void Cascade bomb) while the survivors of the Massacre tried to a escape a tower that had civilians as the infested were going amok and taking over. The Queens likely saw this as their chance to seize power and had their own Military Grineer throughout the Empire to move when weakness showed, alternatively Veytok organized his own rebellion that came under the Queen's control with no one else to overcome their commands.

I have no idea why you made such an info dump but I read it anyway XD. 

You are mentioning two different events here. The event with Gara protecting ancient Cetus the downfall of the orokin was still fairly recent, evident by the Childhood Games' fragment "In the dying days of the Orokin, with forums and promenades still blood-wet from Tenno betrayal" Which gives a nice specific time frame of when that happened.

But the timeframe for when the grineer rebellion started is still unknown only being some point after the fall of the orokin and when the infestation was on a rampage like you mentioned. The grineer Queens were not in power nor did they have a legion of grineer at their call, nothing mentions this. Veytok was the instigator that started the grineer rebellion and Bilsa was in command of them at that point of time. When the Twin Queens took over and became the leaders is unknown, same as to what happened to Bilsa.

3 hours ago, Urlan said:

 During the tail end of this period, we are winding down and going into cryostasis with a few saving Lorists, and potentially the Sands of Inaros' Tenno met their end against a storm of infested invading the lands of Baro's ancestors; it is also likely that Lotus moved Lua into the Void during this time; but it would be difficult then for the Arcane machines and Hunhow to know this unless the machines directly conveyed Lotus' actions to the Sentient forces as some theories believe.

3

I personally don't accept fan-made theories if it doesn't follow all the points presented by the current lore. But the timeline of events could certainly happen in that way although I don't know about arcane machines conveying Lotus's actions to the Sentients because if they did, Hunhow would've known where the tenno was without having to probe the Lotus' mind. 

 

3 hours ago, Urlan said:

The survivors of the lower caste Orokin society eventually grouped together into family merchant units and started calling themselves the Corpus - an Orokin term for one's "family or skill teaching unit" becoming one of the great powers in the wake of the Fall. Eventually, the infested themselves were cleaned out except from small pockets according to the Lotus, those in the Derelict and perhaps Eris (that part is less clear) and were introduced around the waking of the Tenno much later by Dr. Tengus and maybe Alad V due to his experimentation on warframes.

We know that Corpus units existed long before the fall of orokin with the Detron Crewman Synthesis, but everything else you said is correct. It was Dr.Tengus by himself who brought back the infestation btw

7 hours ago, Urlan said:

As far as we know, Ballas didn't personally create warframes; but was in charge as an Executor of the projectl first through his love Archimedian Margulis who go the one who at least designed the orginals up to Titania

Margulis didn't design the warframes as she directly opposed the idea, it was all Balla since he saw what could be gained if he were to weaponize transference.

 

7 hours ago, Urlan said:

We get blueprints for the Titania that defended Silvana as she transferenced into the Grove and much like the other quest warframes, it is a normal model warframe versus a prime.Ballas however didn't stop the warframe project, and kept it going, even giving briefings and presentations to his fellow Executors about the improved Prime versions as displayed with the Prime Trailers. So I would agree on this point totally.

This last bit sounds a lot like headcanon more than anything. Ballas wouldn't need to stop the project if he's the one designing the warframes. The prime trailers only showed that Ballas was the designer and the reasons/purpose as to why he designed those warframes with those abilities they have or just monologues he was having while they were being created.

 

7 hours ago, Urlan said:

; is that Quill - a guy who can see both forward and backward in time as well as other parallel versions of the possibilities of the choices of these realities says Sentient are immune to Technocyte.

 

Ok, you've entered uncharted waters here that I will in no way encourage. First of all, The Quills - a secretive order, loyal to Unum. They cannot see forward/backwards/parallel any of that... well except the future since it's been stated that they can divine the future. But there's NO WAY they have omni-precognition nor the ability to see the past. 

Sentients being immune to the Technocyte was a known fact ever since it was a failed attempt as a bio-weapon against them. They don't need those supposed powers to find that out. 

7 hours ago, Urlan said:

such an situation that would degrade or disperse Sentient energies as displayed by the Eidolon Warframe's Breath of Eidolon leaking from its head and chest.

This is just more headcanon, don't you think that it's just there for visuals. I don't think energy continuously flowing would count as a leakage. And I doubt DE always consider the lore when designing a warframe. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Urlan said:

Part of the problem involving Ballas making a Sentient or particularly Eidolon Warframe as this one is called; is that Quill - a guy who can see both forward and backward in time as well as other parallel versions of the possibilities of the choices of these realities says Sentient are immune to Technocyte. We in Plague Star event use materials and plants that have been exposed to Eidolon energies to improve the poisoning of Hek's beloved Boil. On the other hand, warframes are meant to channel Void energy and use it to fuel themselves as we transference into them, and also power their abilities - such an situation that would degrade or disperse Sentient energies as displayed by the Eidolon Warframe's Breath of Eidolon leaking from its head and chest. Basically, making a Hybrid of such two materials being suggested impossible in-setting; and both having natures that would destroy the other if successful. To top this off, considering the Sentient energy is obviously Eidolon energy as the Devstream and Summary display; and it requires such a creature even if somehow successful to be created during a time-frame when the Orokin Empire was shattered and while Ballas seemingly found a way to cheat death; the Warframe project would have not been continued considering the Fall going down everywhere when Eidolons would have eventually formed in the centuries after Gara blowing the original huge Sentient up.

Mind you know. Eidolon Phylaxis was specifically engineered to combat the infested boil by exploiting the Sentient's immunity. As I've said before, it's not far-fetched that Ballas would create a warframe that is capable of using sentient energy, and we already have a warframe that is able to use Sentient Powers (shadow stalker). But I digress, they specifically said that this warframe is afflicted with sentient energy not made of sentient parts. Nothing shows that mixing together sentient and technocyte will have adverse effects.

 

Eidolons are sentients, there is no "Eidolon Energy" it is sentient energy, they're the same thing.  And all warframes were created during the war with the senitients. It's more lore breaking if they were to be created after the fall of the orokin especially if they have prime versions.

 

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, ShadowExodus said:

I have no idea why you made such an info dump but I read it anyway XD. 

You are mentioning two different events here. The event with Gara protecting ancient Cetus the downfall of the orokin was still fairly recent, evident by the Childhood Games' fragment "In the dying days of the Orokin, with forums and promenades still blood-wet from Tenno betrayal" Which gives a nice specific time frame of when that happened.

But the timeframe for when the grineer rebellion started is still unknown only being some point after the fall of the orokin and when the infestation was on a rampage like you mentioned. The grineer Queens were not in power nor did they have a legion of grineer at their call, nothing mentions this. Veytok was the instigator that started the grineer rebellion and Bilsa was in command of them at that point of time. When the Twin Queens took over and became the leaders is unknown, same as to what happened to Bilsa.

I personally don't accept fan-made theories if it doesn't follow all the points presented by the current lore. But the timeline of events could certainly happen in that way although I don't know about arcane machines conveying Lotus's actions to the Sentients because if they did, Hunhow would've known where the tenno was without having to probe the Lotus' mind. 

 

We know that Corpus units existed long before the fall of orokin with the Detron Crewman Synthesis, but everything else you said is correct. It was Dr.Tengus by himself who brought back the infestation btw

Margulis didn't design the warframes as she directly opposed the idea, it was all Balla since he saw what could be gained if he were to weaponize transference.

 

This last bit sounds a lot like headcanon more than anything. Ballas wouldn't need to stop the project if he's the one designing the warframes. The prime trailers only showed that Ballas was the designer and the reasons/purpose as to why he designed those warframes with those abilities they have or just monologues he was having while they were being created.

 

Ok, you've entered uncharted waters here that I will in no way encourage. First of all, The Quills - a secretive order, loyal to Unum. They cannot see forward/backwards/parallel any of that... well except the future since it's been stated that they can divine the future. But there's NO WAY they have omni-precognition nor the ability to see the past. 

Sentients being immune to the Technocyte was a known fact ever since it was a failed attempt as a bio-weapon against them. They don't need those supposed powers to find that out. 

This is just more headcanon, don't you think that it's just there for visuals. I don't think energy continuously flowing would count as a leakage. And I doubt DE always consider the lore when designing a warframe. 

 

 

Mind you know. Eidolon Phylaxis was specifically engineered to combat the infested boil by exploiting the Sentient's immunity. As I've said before, it's not far-fetched that Ballas would create a warframe that is capable of using sentient energy, and we already have a warframe that is able to use Sentient Powers (shadow stalker). But I digress, they specifically said that this warframe is afflicted with sentient energy not made of sentient parts. Nothing shows that mixing together sentient and technocyte will have adverse effects.

 

Eidolons are sentients, there is no "Eidolon Energy" it is sentient energy, they're the same thing.  And all warframes were created during the war with the senitients. It's more lore breaking if they were to be created after the fall of the orokin especially if they have prime versions.

 

Thank you for reading it, at least, one must always struggle to be heard in a generation used to phone texts! As per the counterpoints.

1. That was the point, Gara and the Eidolon fighting were during the beginning of the period known as the Fall; almost in time with the celebrations of what the Orokin Elite felt was the end of the Old War. This is a period over a thousand years from Present Day Warframe. After the murder of the Orokin Elite.

2. We are given a rough idea of the Grineer rebellion by putting together the information from the quest Natah, the Grineer Rebellion started at the Sentient counter attack against the Orokin Elite - which Tyl Regor credits to them versus Tenno; the Kuria Statue lore entries which state the Queens growth during the Old War period and moving to solidify that power before the Fall; and then being in full control afterward; and lastly the Simaris Eviserator and the Guardsmen entry. This gives us a rough still not fleshed idea of what has happened with the Grineer as by the time the Anti-Moa entry has occurred, the newly fugitive elements of the lower Orokin Castes are talking about their life; having kids which was not how the Orokin Empire did it; and how the Grineer are fleshed out enough as a force to organize traps and boarding parties against these survivors and recognized as a threat to surviving in the outer reaches.

3. Hunhow taunts the Lotus with knowing where we are, about the Womb in the Sky, a place he can not go but the Stalker can. This is the same message from Arcane machines; established in the 2nd Dream, Lotus took Lua into the Void after her father's defeat and the later massacres. This would thus suggest Hunhow would have had little to no knowlege about this development - yet he did - this is not part of their theory; their theory is that the Arcane machines are how Hunhow knew; considering that the Hologram telling us about "All is silent and Calm, hushed and empty is the Womb of the Sky" is the image of a Sentient piece; its not one without merit. I was mentioning it, because I feel that acknowledging other possibilities when we haven't got evidence yet is important. The fact of the Hunhow thing with Lotus was the sorta complicated 'I know he knows something but does he know what I know and that I think I know that he knows something situation'. Lotus was paranoid that since Hunhow has complete knowledge of self on all of his shards, that he might be able to do the same with her. Thus she chances linking to his mind through us going to Hunhow's body on Uranus; which doesn't work out that well - Hunhow knew what she had done, but not how to get in and get it out of the Void so he could attack or destroy it within. Thus the beginning of 2nd Dream.

4. The Crewman Project. Certainly sounds like how the Corpus arrange their manpower now right? That said, its not about the 'Corpus' but about a project to send manned expeditions to Tau Ceti instead of the later accepted due to Ballas' scheming early Sentients option. The mentions in the Simaris entries about Corpus are one mentioning how in that entry the Archimedian presenting the Sentient Project will be vaped and his entire corpus (with a lower case) or family/teaching unit - clade for the Cetus equivalent I believe - would be killed as well if he refused to accept his previous rejection and current vaporization. Mara Detron does however mention that there existed some that were considered smugglers and criminals during the Orokin Empire - who called themselves Corpus in a mob style- Its possible that these criminal and smuggler elements formed up with lower caste survivors to form what we now call the Corpus.

5. Ballas didn't design the warframes. Nothing establishes that he did, at least not yet; her presented them he oversaw the Project as the Executor in charge sure but it was his love Archimedian Margulis who pulled in Archimedian Silvana, and expert in Technocyte Bio-engineering to design and craft these surrogate bodies for the Tenno she had both adopted and sought to heal mentally. Ballas took over more directly after executing Margulis and having Dax attempt to kill a Silvana that went AWOL sure, but in their failure, it was possible his fellow Executors on the Counicl of Seven could see his own. Silver Grove presents this about the origin of the warframes. Which is easy enough to learn by doing the quest or reading the apothic entries from the wiki if you prefer. I don't know where you got that Margulis opposed the idea of warframes, but I feel that perhaps you are drawing from Silvana and likely Margulis' opposition to the Tenno being killed or used as child soldiers. That makes the most sense, as this at least has support in the game and lore entries. I will pass on the head-canon crack because it seems like maybe you didn't read the lore about Silver Grove and the beginnings of the warframes. Now, it isn't that their isn't anything to support the idea that Ballas was involved in making a plan for weaponizing the Tenno from the start; combining the proto-warframe infested creatures from the Rhino prime entry into how the Tenno - at that time in cold storage could control and tame the beasts would very likely lead to the Executors like Ballas directing it to being a superior weapon against the Sentient.

6. Uncharted waters, sounds like a cool TV show or book. Ask Quill about stuff when you visit him or learn about him after Saya's Vigil. Quill will tell you he can see different versions, futures, pasts, and present and among them he chose the path he did. Particularly ask him about Onkko. What Quill has, from his linking with the Unum is called Quantum Awareness; not quite omniscience but pretty close to most folk. Quill Onkko already was a historian and archivist, studying and writing down the Oral histories of Cetus and the Ostrons but become chosen by the Unum after learning more about his awareness and exploring each possible incarnation and potential life he could have with Saya - only one was acceptable - Saya being with his best friend Konzu. Even Quill Onkko's message as you leave him and meet him is a reference to this Quantum awareness, give it a try and you will likely see what I am talking about. DE Steve put a lot of time into this; "Onkko will mention Tenno leaving simple Nexus at Quill Onkko Primary" he is speaking in multiversal lingo with the Tenno. In fact, listen to some of his lines as he just talks to himself, and he hints about the activities of the Quills, himself, others all connecting and linking their observations from other planets through Quill Onkko and the Unum. I mentioned this Quantum awareness simply to the point that if Onkko is saying Eidolons, and indeed all Sentient are immune to Technocyte and telling this to Konzu, there is no reason to disbelieve him in-universe. The leap, if it is one; is that the Quills are similar to the Corrupted for Unum, the Kuva Temple Tower.

7. Sentient energy being dispersed by Void energy is stated as the reason we can kill Hunhow shards - by Teshin - and by Quill Onkko as the reason why amp'd Void lasers are needed to puncture the Eidolon's shields. I don't think its just energy, since the Devs said that the energy covering the warframe was Eidolon energies afflicting it - something that can't work if that warframe is going to be used by a Tenno as it will be filled with Void Energy and thus degrade any Sentient bits in it, and disperse the Sentient energy. Looking at the Breath of Eidolon items and decorations based on them tell the reader that the flowing misting energy flowing out of them are Eidolon energies. As I said earlier, no head-canon at all; but reading what is in the game and what was presented for us.

8. It is important to note "Eidolon energy" since you can look at the devstream and summary overview to remember that it is stated to be "Eidolon Energy" as it is the Eidolon warframe. The Phylaxis is important because it shows Sentient are immune to the very stuff that makes our warframes. We make the Phylaxis from materials imbued with Eidolon Sentient energies in fact - what the people of Cetus call Breath of Eidolon - which shows the very energy itself is poison to Technocyte just as Quill said! Further, the Eidolons are certainly Sentient, but not the living deal; it isn't Hunhow and the differences in energy emanations between the completed creature and its remnants are not fully explored yet. That said, as stated several times, the energy coming from the Eidolon Warframe is Eidolon Energy, as its what is said to be inflicting the warframe. Eidolons as we have gone back and forth on are from a different time period than the warframe project which was before we massacred the Orokin Elite, and the Eidolons formed after the Sentient attacking the Unum died and Cetus slowly formed around the Tower. This is all in the codex, Simaris, and descriptions of things - the world building we were talking about earlier. The problem is that so far, from what we have, Sentient and Warframe combining are a no-go; and even if Eidolons somehow were different in this regard, the Eidolons didn't form yet; course we find during Plague Star that Eidolon energies are posionous to Technocyte so that also hurts the case for it being possible. Could Ballas with his new dark skin and weird stretchy arm maybe have invented some way of doing it in the thousands of years since the Executor Council was killed, Sentient that attacked Unum died; and now? Maybe, by breaking Sentient stuff somehow to the point it didn't give off its energy or evolving warframe technocyte to being able to eat Sentient parts and energy; but again; that wouldn't allow for Primes unless the warframe was different in the long ago past; mind this would have to be without the original designer of the warframes as presented by Silver Grove.

Still, its probably easier to say head-canon without looking at the writing the devs have done. Thanks again for reading those walls of text!

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

16 hours ago, Urlan said:

We are given a rough idea of the Grineer rebellion by putting together the information from the quest Natah, the Grineer Rebellion started at the Sentient counter attack against the Orokin Elite - which Tyl Regor credits to them versus Tenno; the Kuria Statue lore entries which state the Queens growth during the Old War period and moving to solidify that power before the Fall; and then being in full control afterward; and lastly the Simaris Eviserator and the Guardsmen entry. This gives us a rough still not fleshed idea of what has happened with the Grineer as by the time the Anti-Moa entry has occurred, the newly fugitive elements of the lower Orokin Castes are talking about their life; having kids which was not how the Orokin Empire did it; and how the Grineer are fleshed out enough as a force to organize traps and boarding parties against these survivors and recognized as a threat to surviving in the outer reaches.

The Kuria statue lore didn't state anything about the Queen's Growth during the old war period other than growing and understanding each other. What it did state however, is what they did during the grineer rebellion. They were fighting against the grineer at some point in time (for survival most likely) and during that time, they earned the loyalty of the grineer through the strength they presented because of their deep bond with each other. Nothing in the Kuria states anything about Twin Queens scheming anything before the fall of the orokin. 

16 hours ago, Urlan said:

Hunhow taunts the Lotus with knowing where we are, about the Womb in the Sky, a place he can not go but the Stalker can. This is the same message from Arcane machines; established in the 2nd Dream, Lotus took Lua into the Void after her father's defeat and the later massacres. 

 

Ahh you make sense here,  I forgot that he knew the words mentioned by the arcane machine. The part I was thinking of was when he looked into her mind to find the void gate that leads to Lua.

16 hours ago, Urlan said:

The Crewman Project. Certainly sounds like how the Corpus arrange their manpower now right? That said, its not about the 'Corpus' but about a project to send manned expeditions to Tau Ceti instead of the later accepted due to Ballas' scheming early Sentients option. The mentions in the Simaris entries about Corpus are one mentioning how in that entry the Archimedian presenting the Sentient Project will be vaped and his entire corpus (with a lower case) or family/teaching unit - clade for the Cetus equivalent I believe - would be killed as well if he refused to accept his previous rejection and current vaporization. Mara Detron does however mention that there existed some that were considered smugglers and criminals during the Orokin Empire - who called themselves Corpus in a mob style- Its possible that these criminal and smuggler elements formed up with lower caste survivors to form what we now call the Corpus.

Nothing said here is wrong.

16 hours ago, Urlan said:

Ballas didn't design the warframes. Nothing establishes that he did, at least not yet; her presented them he oversaw the Project as the Executor in charge sure but it was his love Archimedian Margulis who pulled in Archimedian Silvana, and expert in Technocyte Bio-engineering to design and craft these surrogate bodies for the Tenno she had both adopted and sought to heal mentally. Ballas took over more directly after executing Margulis and having Dax attempt to kill a Silvana that went AWOL sure, but in their failure, it was possible his fellow Executors on the Counicl of Seven could see his own. 

1

Ballas did design the warframes, I'm standing by that. Prime trailers allude to this and the recent sacrifice teaser site fully stated that he is the creator. He doesn't have to put a hand in building the warframes himself, that's what many others are for like Silvana. 

I have to correct myself, Margulis was dead before she could oppose the idea of warframes. What she was opposing was the orokin wanting to kill the tenno. Margulis' execution was a few years before the complete development of transference and warframes. I keep forgetting that piece of information that they executed Margulis before she could finish her work on Transference and that Ballas continued and completed it.

16 hours ago, Urlan said:

Uncharted waters, sounds like a cool TV show or book. Ask Quill about stuff when you visit him or learn about him after Saya's Vigil. Quill will tell you he can see different versions, futures, pasts, and present and among them he chose the path he did. Particularly ask him about Onkko. What Quill has, from his linking with the Unum is called Quantum Awareness; not quite omniscience but pretty close to most folk. Quill Onkko already was a historian and archivist, studying and writing down the Oral histories of Cetus and the Ostrons but become chosen by the Unum after learning more about his awareness and exploring each possible incarnation and potential life he could have with Saya - only one was acceptable - Saya being with his best friend Konzu. Even Quill Onkko's message as you leave him and meet him is a reference to this Quantum awareness, give it a try and you will likely see what I am talking about. DE Steve put a lot of time into this; "Onkko will mention Tenno leaving simple Nexus at Quill Onkko Primary" he is speaking in multiversal lingo with the Tenno. In fact, listen to some of his lines as he just talks to himself, and he hints about the activities of the Quills, himself, others all connecting and linking their observations from other planets through Quill Onkko and the Unum. I mentioned this Quantum awareness simply to the point that if Onkko is saying Eidolons, and indeed all Sentient are immune to Technocyte and telling this to Konzu, there is no reason to disbelieve him in-universe. The leap, if it is one; is that the Quills are similar to the Corrupted for Unum, the Kuva Temple Tower.

4

The quill we meet is Onkko. The Quills is an order that serves the Unum. There is nothing suggesting that there is a "linking" with the Unum. If there is, gonna have to provide a source.

I'm not gonna deny the one quote that suggested that he saw multiple futures and chose the one that was safest. But I still don't think that would count as Quantum Awareness as seeing parallels nor does it allow him to see into the past, nothing suggested this. He saw possible futures at the moment of his choice. Whether that ties into parallels versions of the universe or whatever is another debate entirely.

"Onkko will mention Tenno leaving simple Nexus at Quill Onkko Primary" I don't see how this connects to multiversal lingo. It's really just Onkko saying the tenno is leaving from the shop/area/ center while referring to himself.

Where does it say that the Quills expand to other planets? Afaik it's only been said that they operate around Cetus or earth for that matter.

I'm not understanding it. How does Onkko or the Quills knowing that Sentients are immune to technocyte = Quantum Awareness? It's simple info that was known for how many years when the orokin used the technocyte as a bio-weapon against the sentients and failed. 

The Quills is an order that is loyal and serves the Unum, it's no different than the grineer being loyal to the Twin Queens. They choose to join it as seen with Onkko, no brainwashing needed.

On 2018-06-05 at 12:44 AM, Urlan said:

Sentient energy being dispersed by Void energy is stated as the reason we can kill Hunhow shards - by Teshin - and by Quill Onkko as the reason why amp'd Void lasers are needed to puncture the Eidolon's shields. I don't think its just energy, since the Devs said that the energy covering the warframe was Eidolon energies afflicting it - something that can't work if that warframe is going to be used by a Tenno as it will be filled with Void Energy and thus degrade any Sentient bits in it, and disperse the Sentient energy. Looking at the Breath of Eidolon items and decorations based on them tell the reader that the flowing misting energy flowing out of them are Eidolon energies. As I said earlier, no head-canon at all; but reading what is in the game and what was presented for us.

 

Ok, you've explained why void energy can penetrate sentient shielding. But it really isn't lore breaking as people are trying to make it out to be. The warframe is afflicted with sentient energy, not said to be made of sentient parts. And it's not like there is nothing supporting the use of sentient abilities. Shadow Stalker perfectly displays that. I mean there has to be something powering the warframe to make him able to use the powers bestowed on him by hunhow. Operator Amps uses sentient cores/shards/breath of the eidolon and have a sentient aesthetic to it. Hunhow has also specifically said that Orokin would chisel weapons from their bones. Although it is a stretch to say if they gave those weapons to tenno which is more than likely but either way. All i'm saying that it's not a stretch for a warframe to channel void energy into sentient energy. Vlad would more than likely take breath of the eidolon, sentient cores and or eidolon shards. The same mats that an operator amp. 

 

On 2018-06-05 at 12:44 AM, Urlan said:

It is important to note "Eidolon energy" since you can look at the devstream and summary overview to remember that it is stated to be "Eidolon Energy" as it is the Eidolon warframe.

The devstream nor the overview says eidolon energy. "Our next warframe is afflicted by sentient energy" Every reference to eidolons is strictly from a theme point of view for the design of the warframe.

On 2018-06-05 at 12:44 AM, Urlan said:

The Phylaxis is important because it shows Sentient are immune to the very stuff that makes our warframes. We make the Phylaxis from materials imbued with Eidolon Sentient energies in fact - what the people of Cetus call Breath of Eidolon - which shows the very energy itself is poison to Technocyte just as Quill said!

Sentients are immune to pathogen Technocyte, the virus. The phylaxis description specifically says that they exploit the sentient immunity to technocyte. "Formulated specifically to combat infested boils" If there is a piece of lore that specifically says that sentients are poison to the infestation then link the source otherwise nothing suggests this. Sentients are immune to the infestation just like Tenno are immune to the infestation.

 

On 2018-06-05 at 12:44 AM, Urlan said:

Further, the Eidolons are certainly Sentient, but not the living deal; it isn't Hunhow and the differences in energy emanations between the completed creature and its remnants are not fully explored yet. That said, as stated several times, the energy coming from the Eidolon Warframe is Eidolon Energy, as its what is said to be inflicting the warframe. Eidolons as we have gone back and forth on are from a different time period than the warframe project which was before we massacred the Orokin Elite, and the Eidolons formed after the Sentient attacking the Unum died and Cetus slowly formed around the Tower. This is all in the codex, Simaris, and descriptions of things - the world building we were talking about earlier.

Eidolons are living, mind-broken but certainly alive. I still have not seen any reference in warframe saying Eidolon Energy. Everything is mentioned as Sentient energy. Eidolons are Sentients, it's the same as Hunhow. The difference is Eidolons are the remains of the colossal sentient Gara blew up and they are simple-minded, yearning to unite themselves again. This was mentioned in the glass fragments and for all, we know Eidolons could just simply be the name given to the roaming remains of the colossal sentient by the people of cetus since it was referred to as sentient rather than Eidolon in the codex entries. Cetus was already formed around the tower of Unum by that time too... well ancient Cetus.

On 2018-06-05 at 12:44 AM, Urlan said:

The problem is that so far, from what we have, Sentient and Warframe combining are a no-go; and even if Eidolons somehow were different in this regard, the Eidolons didn't form yet; course we find during Plague Star that Eidolon energies are posionous to Technocyte so that also hurts the case for it being possible.

1

Eidolons are sentient, so I don't see the reasoing in why Vlad couldn't be created and afflicted by sentient enery from other sentients. Again nothing suggest that Eidolon energies are poisonous to technocyte. The Phylaxis itself stated that it exploited sentient immunity and formulated to combat the boil. 

On 2018-06-05 at 12:44 AM, Urlan said:

. Could Ballas with his new dark skin and weird stretchy arm maybe have invented some way of doing it in the thousands of years since the Executor Council was killed, Sentient that attacked Unum died; and now? Maybe, by breaking Sentient stuff somehow to the point it didn't give off its energy or evolving warframe technocyte to being able to eat Sentient parts and energy; but again; that wouldn't allow for Primes unless the warframe was different in the long ago past; mind this would have to be without the original designer of the warframes as presented by Silver Grove.

You're basing this off of Eidolons being different form Sentients. Which they're not. It's still sentient, Vlad doesn't have to be specifically created from an eidolon. As i've said before anything mentioning it is simply from a design/inspiration/thematic point of view than a lore pov. How can Silvana be the original designer of the warframes? All she did was build them. If she was the original designer then any warframe after Titania is lore breaking. 

[Urlan]

31 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

The Kuria statue lore didn't state anything about the Queen's Growth during the old war period other than growing and understanding each other. What it did state however, is what they did during the grineer rebellion. They were fighting against the grineer at some point in time (for survival most likely) and during that time, they earned the loyalty of the grineer through the strength they presented because of their deep bond with each other. Nothing in the Kuria states anything about Twin Queens scheming anything before the fall of the orokin. 

Ahh you make sense here,  I forgot that he knew the words mentioned by the arcane machine. The part I was thinking of was when he looked into her mind to find the void gate that leads to Lua.

Nothing said here is wrong.

Ballas did design the warframes, I'm standing by that. Prime trailers allude to this and the recent sacrifice teaser site fully stated that he is the creator. He doesn't have to put a hand in building the warframes himself, that's what many others are for like Silvana. 

I have to correct myself, Margulis was dead before she could oppose the idea of warframes. What she was opposing was the orokin wanting to kill the tenno. Margulis' execution was a few years before the complete development of transference and warframes. I keep forgetting that piece of information that they executed Margulis before she could finish her work on Transference and that Ballas continued and completed it.

The quill we meet is Onkko. The Quills is an order that serves the Unum. There is nothing suggesting that there is a "linking" with the Unum. If there is, gonna have to provide a source.

I'm not gonna deny the one quote that suggested that he saw multiple futures and chose the one that was safest. But I still don't think that would count as Quantum Awareness as seeing parallels nor does it allow him to see into the past, nothing suggested this. He saw possible futures at the moment of his choice. Whether that ties into parallels versions of the universe or whatever is another debate entirely.

"Onkko will mention Tenno leaving simple Nexus at Quill Onkko Primary" I don't see how this connects to multiversal lingo. It's really just Onkko saying the tenno is leaving from the shop/area/ center while referring to himself.

Where does it say that the Quills expand to other planets? Afaik it's only been said that they operate around Cetus or earth for that matter.

I'm not understanding it. How does Onkko or the Quills knowing that Sentients are immune to technocyte = Quantum Awareness? It's simple info that was known for how many years when the orokin used the technocyte as a bio-weapon against the sentients and failed. 

The Quills is an order that is loyal and serves the Unum, it's no different than the grineer being loyal to the Twin Queens. They choose to join it as seen with Onkko, no brainwashing needed.

 

Ok, you've explained why void energy can penetrate sentient shielding. But it really isn't lore breaking as people are trying to make it out to be. The warframe is afflicted with sentient energy, not said to be made of sentient parts. And it's not like there is nothing supporting the use of sentient abilities. Shadow Stalker perfectly displays that. I mean there has to be something powering the warframe to make him able to use the powers bestowed on him by hunhow. Operator Amps uses sentient cores/shards/breath of the eidolon and have a sentient aesthetic to it. Hunhow has also specifically said that Orokin would chisel weapons from their bones. Although it is a stretch to say if they gave those weapons to tenno which is more than likely but either way. All i'm saying that it's not a stretch for a warframe to channel void energy into sentient energy. Vlad would more than likely take breath of the eidolon, sentient cores and or eidolon shards. The same mats that an operator amp. 

 

The devstream nor the overview says eidolon energy. "Our next warframe is afflicted by sentient energy" Every reference to eidolons is strictly from a theme point of view for the design of the warframe.

Sentients are immune to pathogen Technocyte, the virus. The phylaxis description specifically says that they exploit the sentient immunity to technocyte. "Formulated specifically to combat infested boils" If there is a piece of lore that specifically says that sentients are poison to the infestation then link the source otherwise nothing suggests this. Sentients are immune to the infestation just like Tenno are immune to the infestation.

 

Eidolons are living, mind-broken but certainly alive. I still have not seen any reference in warframe saying Eidolon Energy. Everything is mentioned as Sentient energy. Eidolons are Sentients, it's the same as Hunhow. The difference is Eidolons are the remains of the colossal sentient Gara blew up and they are simple-minded, yearning to unite themselves again. This was mentioned in the glass fragments and for all, we know Eidolons could just simply be the name given to the roaming remains of the colossal sentient by the people of cetus since it was referred to as sentient rather than Eidolon in the codex entries. Cetus was already formed around the tower of Unum by that time too... well ancient Cetus.

Eidolons are sentient, so I don't see the reasoing in why Vlad couldn't be created and afflicted by sentient enery from other sentients. Again nothing suggest that Eidolon energies are poisonous to technocyte. The Phylaxis itself stated that it exploited sentient immunity and formulated to combat the boil. 

You're basing this off of Eidolons being different form Sentients. Which they're not. It's still sentient, Vlad doesn't have to be specifically created from an eidolon. As i've said before anything mentioning it is simply from a design/inspiration/thematic point of view than a lore pov. How can Silvana be the original designer of the warframes? All she did was build them. If she was the original designer then any warframe after Titania is lore breaking. 

Nothing in the game says Ballas designed the warframes - you are taking that as a fan theory and inferring it due to Ballas presenting the Prime warframes - Ballas was the Executor in that the Project was made under. This is in the game, and you can read the codex entries and lore about it. On the same token, since you don't intend to look at Quill's lines in the game for the most part, check the Wiki under Quill Onkko quotes. This should help you understand their nature. The Kuria do not say the Queens fought the Grineer, particularly not during the Fall, the Queens Fought with the Military Grineer from the aspect of being their leaders during the Old War. The reason for this is that they were Orokin Elite but unlike other Elite, their bodies were not perfect and symmetrical; but twisted in the Elite's eyes, more like Grineer. The Elite were going to kill them, but their 'father' stopped this, and felt they could still of use. This is inferred to be Ballas, particularly since the Elder Queens mention being connected to the Warframe project but nothing outright says this. The purpose was leading the newly made Military Grineer, as said in the Furia entries.

Sentient are living creatures with their will; (mechanical creatures sure but alive) the EIdolons are not the original Sentient, they live in the aspect of still existing sure, but are not the Sentient that attacked the Unum. Its mind was destroyed. Hunhow's body was defeated, and rests on in the seas of Uranus but can be revived as Lotus and Hunhow speak about. That was Natah's next role after having the Elites killed by the Tenno and then being supposed to kill the Tenno themselves; revive her father. Hunhow is not dead, but his main body is out of commision. Sentient Cores are traded in to Quill, for rep; not made into Amps. Sentient bones could be made into weapons; sure; taking the parts from them or even using their parts for gear that isn't going to be exposed to much Void Energy. This can also be taken as a rather vague statement as it can be interpreted from raw using limbs or body parts - still active as Hunhow states all his parts are imbued with his will - or could be read as people like those of Cetus melting down or scrapping out the minerals or gems of the Sentient parts for their components. His War and Broken War being our only stated Sentient weapons that seem capable of enduring Void Energy - as they didn't deteriorate and seem to be able to channel energy effectively enough. Stalker is wearing a true Pakal armor, made from a Sentient Hunhow Shard, which Hunhow-War and Shadow Stalker interact with. This is not integrated into his warframe but is acting as Adaptive armor. We don't know in-game if Shadow Stalker is immitating Sentient attacks using his power or acting in synch with Hunhow to fire them off.

With Eidolons, I am not thinking they are not Sentient, as I have repeated said, I have however said that Eidolons are not the original Sentient are not indicative of other Sentients; the creatures - still Sentient - are not the once living original Sentient but Shards like Hunhow's that move without their core will. Like if you killed the mind of the Borg collective (the queen in the movies) and each part had to develop its own separate awareness. The Eidolons are the result of a particular Sentient being killed, but its core awareness going boomy due to Gara allowing herself to be chewed to bits clutching a Void Bomb. So yeah, its Shards - the Eidolons - are still part of it; seem to be trying to pull themselves together into a whole using trees and stones, but the mind of the Original Sentient that attacked Earth is not alive. Thus the name Eidolon - it means phantasm or remenant - a hollow shell.

Breath of Eidolon is used in many Ostron items of value. The descriptions say that the people of Cetus use the Breath to tune the fires of the forge or cure the finished products. This can be read as the items being treated in Eidolon Energy or can be seen as being treated based on how you want to look at it; if one saw it as being treated in the stuff, imbuing it with Sentient energies, then it would be similar to how the Devs described an Affliction at least as long as being so enchanted, the item is able to generate and maintain more Eidolon Breath. The bigger concern one might have in Quill's constructions is the Magus or Virtuos that need Eidolon Shards; as nothing explains this yet; but it could be seen in a similar manner releasing energy or using their base materials to make something else that is not melted by us. Or indeed, by us having little Sentient wills entrapped in a  bobble on our clothes or amps, like a spirit in a sealed jar of waste in Lovecraft's stories.

Technocyte isn't a virus, as looking at nanospores and reading the codex/simaris lore will help explain. Its a bio-mechanical mix of organic tissues,.think bacteria or fungal spores; and nanobots There life cycle to form nanospores which can invade or be breathed into susceptible hosts or materials and then improve or reshape them based on some blueprints, purpose, or design. Left alone, Nanospores form Plastids, which form Mutagen Samples and Mass as well as can be used in the manufacture of other materials or important items. When the Sentient became a threat for turning the Orokin Elite technology against the Empire, the Orokin fell back to Technocyte technology, something they might have used before or invented largely for this purpose - its not clear on the subject - in this they would convert people or things to use in the efforts against the Sentient for the Old War. This was used against the Sentient because the mechanical creatures couldn't control Technocyte organisms and later, as warframes could be used with Tenno controlling them focus Void energy as a potent weapon against the Sentient - for it was their weakness still - and allow a better chance of victory. The problem with Technocyte from our standpoint is that normal Infested seem to have their minds burned out or subsumed to an animalistic state which leaves them trying to consume or assimilate anything not Technocyte infected. It has been shown that some infested creatures seem to act as control creatures or speak for the Infestation. Phorid, Lephantis, Jordas Golem, and Mutalist Alad V though he cured himself due to our actions (how exactly, is another story). It can be inferred then and gathered from dialogue of these entities and Alad V that Techocyte is linked to each other at least in among the same strains. Mutalist Alad V for instance only talking about being linked and feeling all the hunger and wants of his Mutalist based strain of Infestation: while Lephantis seems to be linked to the ancient pre-Fall Derelict infested: Jordas Golem to a strain infesting ships near Eris fusing his Cephalon consciousness to that strain as their 'Voice'; and Phorid representing the infested strains from the work of Dr.Tengus and potentially pre-mutalist Alad V. Since the Infestation is said to have gone berserk when we killed the Orokin Elite on Lotus(Natah)'s orders, it would make sense that the Orokin Elite had originally designed controls for the Bio-mechanical organisms linked to themselves or entities linked to them, but that gets into vague and cloudy waters admittedly. The important take away is the nature of the infestation is to continue, consume, and remake mater to follow whatever purpose or precept the Orokin Elite gave them at the time. Sentient being immune to this is admittedly odd; but is stated in-game as being the case. If one wanted to change Plague Star from this, saying that the Iridite, Nistlepods, and Maprico were are using are just naturally bad for Techoncyte; then that would be absolutely fine plot wise - since very little suggests Sentient Immunity otherwise!

[Duduminador]

Lemme add my 2 cents (this may have been suggested before tho)

There is a chance in all this, that Warframes and Sentient are related to begin with.

I mean, the way sentient body is designed, with that unic smooth bendy metal lines, is not just a thing inherent to Warframe's art style (game). within the game, there are distinct looks for distinct tech. Corpus are blocking, they make you think of cabinets, robots, processors, etc... Grineer tech is a lot more about hydraulic mechanics without interfaces, armors, pistons etc, some of their weapons are as simple as a an assault rifle with some augment straped together with duct tape. Warframes are pretty unic with the bendy metal layers, organic looking parts, and so Sentients share that.

If I had to bet on it, while there is no direct connection between Warframes and Sentients, it is possible that both developed as upgrades from a more ancestor form of technology, something that perhappes Margulis used as a base. One that evolved in 2 different ways. Warframes are the result of that same tech evolving with technocytes, Sentients are the result of that Tech envolving with whatever-it-is-that-those-drones-found-on-the-Tau-system.

My point is, people are using the void-is-toxic-to-Sentient as the single theory to refute a Warframe that's plagued by Sentient energy. While that does make sense, there may (or certainly) be other factors that can instead contribute to a hybrid warframe being possible. Let's not forget that both Technocyte and Sentients have the same instinct, adapt. One adapts through a more organic way, changing the host physicaly, the other adapts through knowledge, learning, as a highly advanced algorithm (which rises the question of whether or not this learning can make their physical body develop, and whether losing that knowledge can physicaly change them)

 

I personally have my own theory about how void energy isn't an immediate Sentient's weakness. In fact, it isn't truly effective against Sentients at all and the "void energy is toxic to sentients" while true, may be getting a misinterpretation. I mean, void energy is actually toxic to everyone, but doesn't really take a tool on living creature's body, Rell's story arc shows how void energy is dangerous because it can warp the mind.

To my understanding Sentient's are a very advanced AI, so their main ability is learning, Void beams effectiveness resumes to the fact that just as a normal person can go mad under long therm exposure, Sentients exposed to a burst of void energy may cause them to "forget" what they just learned, and THAT is the big deal, a batalyst adapts to every form of damage its hit with, but when it's hit by Void energy, that ability gets reset. Natha may have become sterile, not because void energy affected her body, but because it took a tool on her code, and being an AI that had consequences on her body as well.

Now take a look at the Eidolons, they sit at the complete opposite nature to that of oculysts/batalysts/conculysts, they don't have an objective, no goal, purpose, in fact they can't even adapt to damage, it almost seen like they lack the core stuff of Sentients, mind... Wait... lore takes care of that, Gara's story fragments in fact state that Eidolons did have goals, destroy the Towers, but at some point a massive burst (of supposedly void energy) obliterated not just their learning capabilities, but their minds all together. So in a way, just as a conculyst loses its short therm memory when hit by a void beam, an Eidolon lost all of it when hit by a massive void burst.

Void energy isn't particulary efficient damage against sentients as a way of cause physical harm, but just as its exposure can warp a person's mind, it can do the same thing to sentients (but they rely heavily on their learning ability).

And it gets worse, maybe, just maybe, a sentient can even adapt to Void energy. after all, look at the Teralyst on the Codex, they do in fact, contrary to every other sentient on the system, resist Void energy, and contrary to every other sentient on the system, they have been around long enough to be able to do it.

Resume: there really isn't that many reasons to refute a Warframe that can use sentient energy (heck I wouldn't be surprised if the sentient themselves use harnessed void energy to protect their weak spots, hence why its the only thing that can damage them in that state). Dare I say, that given enough time, a Sentient that can use void energy, or a Warframe that can use sentient energy is inevitable.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

On 2018-06-06 at 12:42 PM, Urlan said:

Nothing in the game says Ballas designed the warframes - you are taking that as a fan theory and inferring it due to Ballas presenting the Prime warframes - Ballas was the Executor in that the Project was made under. This is in the game, and you can read the codex entries and lore about it.

 

Alot in the game links Ballas to being the creator of the warframes. Let's look at the facts from the different sources; Using spoiler tags since replies are getting long.

Spoiler

Margulis, from your winter ashes, there has sprung a field of flowers. Conceived by me, germinated for deadly purpose. You used to dream of old Earth, didn't you? Bathed in gold and solemn blue. I intend to reclaim it now, from the spores and the ruin. It came to me like a proverb: Fight poison with... poison. Cure this sick horde with the greatest of plagues.

I will call her... Saryn.

Metaphors upon metaphors. Lets break this down

• Margulis, from your winter ashes, there has sprung a field of flowers - This obviously refer to Margulis' execution and the research she on transference she left behind. 
• Conceived by me, germinated for deadly purpose - Ballas completed the research (or used) and weaponized transference with warframes
• It came to me like a proverb: Fight poison with.... poison - For a simple overseer of a project, he sure had an idea of what would become Saryn
• I will call her... Saryn. - I'm sure the naming of a invention comes from the one who originally designs/created said invention. 

That's enough evidence to show that Ballas did indeed was creating warframes.

 

Spoiler

Oh, how you suffered to become this beast. Yet you laughed at me. Others writhed and raged in the vice, but you, you played the fool. And so it was, that you distorted my design.

A sanguine trick. A murderous comedy. But no one is laughing anymore... except you.

The mere vapors of your life, shimmering still. Mirage.

Unlike the metaphorical description of the creation of Saryn Prime. This directly states that his design was distorted in however way that is unknown. 

And then the final nail in the coffin "Lua brings you strength. But you cannot defy creator." Even more direct than the Mirage Prime trailer if it wasn't direct enough. Ballas being said to be the creator of the warframes isn't mere fan theory like you're trying to pass it as. 

 

 

On 2018-06-06 at 12:42 PM, Urlan said:

On the same token, since you don't intend to look at Quill's lines in the game for the most part, check the Wiki under Quill Onkko quotes. This should help you understand their nature.

Spoiler

I've looked at the quotes multiple times but nothing suggest even a tiny amount of quantum awareness. Onkko is no different than a fortune teller that is loyal to an entity. Most of his quotes is just fortune teller lingo on how the tenno will change the future or metaphorical talk on whats happening in that moment whether waiting, creating amps, leaving etc. "Tenno seperating from simple nexus at Quill Onkko Primary" - No different from saying "Tenno is leaving the shop" or something similar to that, nothing more nothing less. He's an ostron with divination, seeing multiple paths depending on choices isn't quantum awareness nor does it suggest that he can see parallels or whatever. Simply means that warframe is the type of story where the future isn't set in stone like many other stories. 

 

On 2018-06-06 at 12:42 PM, Urlan said:

The Kuria do not say the Queens fought the Grineer, particularly not during the Fall, the Queens Fought with the Military Grineer from the aspect of being their leaders during the Old War. The reason for this is that they were Orokin Elite but unlike other Elite, their bodies were not perfect and symmetrical; but twisted in the Elite's eyes, more like Grineer. The Elite were going to kill them, but their 'father' stopped this, and felt they could still of use. This is inferred to be Ballas, particularly since the Elder Queens mention being connected to the Warframe project but nothing outright says this. The purpose was leading the newly made Military Grineer, as said in the Furia entries.

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

#1 -
A Story once lost
Recovered by fate
The tale of two sisters
Who bore the same face

#2 - 
Born one quiet morning
Amidst the great war
All elders were gathered
For this life's new dawn

#3 - 
Confused and bewildered
They judged them amiss
For they never witnessed
Two self-same as these

#4 -
A mirrored reflection
Had come into life
By will of their father
Kept safe from the knife

#5 -
Their sameness was shunned
As slave-like and soiled
They tended their strays
Rejected by all

#6 -
As both Girls Matured
Their bond grew in depth
They had the same poise
Same senses, same strength

#7 -
The Uprising came
And Spread like a weed
An army of copy-men
Ferocious and Free

#8 -
And much like the sea
They came just like waves
For years they fought on
For years we remained

#9 -
Like chisel to stone
War molded the twins
Who ravaged the hordes
Became legend to them

#10 -
They had a deep strength
That came from Each other
Unlike all these copies
Identical, but not brothers

#11 -
The copies could see it
They yearned for it too
If the twins could do it
Perhaps they could too

#12 -
The twins had attained
Something more than a whole
A true understanding
Of each other soul

#13 -
The copies became believers
One by one bowed to the twins
And led forth by their new masters
They ravaged the colonies

#14 -
Now a power to follow
Not a force to be fought
From the ashes of war
The Twin Queens were wrought

Spoiler within a spoiler... #spoilerception

The reason why the twinqueens was shunned by orokin isn't because their bodies weren't perfect. It was specifically because they were twins. #1 - #5 perfectly says that. The queens we see now are not in their original bodies, they've been jumping bodies through the continuity which we know is what gives the orokin (or at least the elite) their supposed immortality. 

#7 Specifically says the uprising and army of copy men. No brainer to see that this is the grineer rebellion which we know happened after the fall of the orokin not before. 

And much like the sea
They came just like waves
For years they fought on
For years we remained

#8 Directly says that the queens were fighting the grineer whether it was intentional or for survival is up for debate. Otherwise my comprehension is jack S#&$ if that isn't what "And much like the sea, They came just like waves, For years they fought on, For years we remained "

#9 Also directly says that they easily survived the onslaught from the grineer

#10 - #14 Then tells us how deep their bond became and how much the grineer yearned for a bond similar and started to become believers. Note that this happened after they were fighting each other for years. And it makes sense too. Cloned copies saw the bond between twins (which are like copies of each other) and yearned for that same bond. 

And I absolutely have no idea where you got that link of Ballas being the father of the twin queens. That sounds more like fan theory. 

 

 

On 2018-06-06 at 12:42 PM, Urlan said:

Sentient are living creatures with their will; (mechanical creatures sure but alive) the EIdolons are not the original Sentient, they live in the aspect of still existing sure, but are not the Sentient that attacked the Unum. Its mind was destroyed. Hunhow's body was defeated, and rests on in the seas of Uranus but can be revived as Lotus and Hunhow speak about. That was Natah's next role after having the Elites killed by the Tenno and then being supposed to kill the Tenno themselves; revive her father. Hunhow is not dead, but his main body is out of commision. Sentient Cores are traded in to Quill, for rep; not made into Amps. Sentient bones could be made into weapons; sure; taking the parts from them or even using their parts for gear that isn't going to be exposed to much Void Energy. This can also be taken as a rather vague statement as it can be interpreted from raw using limbs or body parts - still active as Hunhow states all his parts are imbued with his will - or could be read as people like those of Cetus melting down or scrapping out the minerals or gems of the Sentient parts for their components. His War and Broken War being our only stated Sentient weapons that seem capable of enduring Void Energy - as they didn't deteriorate and seem to be able to channel energy effectively enough. Stalker is wearing a true Pakal armor, made from a Sentient Hunhow Shard, which Hunhow-War and Shadow Stalker interact with. This is not integrated into his warframe but is acting as Adaptive armor. We don't know in-game if Shadow Stalker is immitating Sentient attacks using his power or acting in synch with Hunhow to fire them off.

Spoiler

The whole point I was making is that Eidolons are still Sentients, that's why I mentioned Hunhow. They are still the same species/race. A sentient warframe is still able to be made before the war since they were fighting sentients. Doesn't have to be tied to eidolons. And as I said before, they specifically said a warframe afflicted with sentient energy. Nothing says that a warframe can't channel void energy into sentient energy, it doesn't have to be made of sentient parts but at most he will very likely be taking breath of the Eidolon as a required component to craft.

I doubt Shadow stalker can imitate damage adaptation and laser spheres seen by battalystss. As i've said, he has to be powering those abilties from somewhere although the damage adaptation does make him susceptible to void damage (I mean resetting his adaptation).

 

On 2018-06-06 at 12:42 PM, Urlan said:

Breath of Eidolon is used in many Ostron items of value. The descriptions say that the people of Cetus use the Breath to tune the fires of the forge or cure the finished products. This can be read as the items being treated in Eidolon Energy or can be seen as being treated based on how you want to look at it; if one saw it as being treated in the stuff, imbuing it with Sentient energies, then it would be similar to how the Devs described an Affliction at least as long as being so enchanted, the item is able to generate and maintain more Eidolon Breath. The bigger concern one might have in Quill's constructions is the Magus or Virtuos that need Eidolon Shards; as nothing explains this yet; but it could be seen in a similar manner releasing energy or using their base materials to make something else that is not melted by us. Or indeed, by us having little Sentient wills entrapped in a  bobble on our clothes or amps, like a spirit in a sealed jar of waste in Lovecraft's stories.

Spoiler

Gonna have to link the source to that because the description I'm getting is " A gas found solely on the plains on Eidolon. Refined to its purest form" 

Breath of the Eidolon isn't Sentient Energy, it's a gas. Two different states. and there is no mention of Eidolon Energy.

I ignore anything with arcanes and see it as purely a game mechanic and nothing lore related because there are no in lore description of them. 

 

On 2018-06-06 at 12:42 PM, Urlan said:

Technocyte isn't a virus, as looking at nanospores and reading the codex/simaris lore will help explain. Its a bio-mechanical mix of organic tissues,.think bacteria or fungal spores; and nanobots There life cycle to form nanospores which can invade or be breathed into susceptible hosts or materials and then improve or reshape them based on some blueprints, purpose, or design. Left alone, Nanospores form Plastids, which form Mutagen Samples and Mass as well as can be used in the manufacture of other materials or important items. When the Sentient became a threat for turning the Orokin Elite technology against the Empire, the Orokin fell back to Technocyte technology, something they might have used before or invented largely for this purpose - its not clear on the subject - in this they would convert people or things to use in the efforts against the Sentient for the Old War. 

This was used against the Sentient because the mechanical creatures couldn't control Technocyte organisms and later, as warframes could be used with Tenno controlling them focus Void energy as a potent weapon against the Sentient - for it was their weakness still - and allow a better chance of victory.

The problem with Technocyte from our standpoint is that normal Infested seem to have their minds burned out or subsumed to an animalistic state which leaves them trying to consume or assimilate anything not Technocyte infected. It has been shown that some infested creatures seem to act as control creatures or speak for the Infestation. Phorid, Lephantis, Jordas Golem, and Mutalist Alad V though he cured himself due to our actions (how exactly, is another story). It can be inferred then and gathered from dialogue of these entities and Alad V that Techocyte is linked to each other at least in among the same strains. Mutalist Alad V for instance only talking about being linked and feeling all the hunger and wants of his Mutalist based strain of Infestation: while Lephantis seems to be linked to the ancient pre-Fall Derelict infested: Jordas Golem to a strain infesting ships near Eris fusing his Cephalon consciousness to that strain as their 'Voice'; and Phorid representing the infested strains from the work of Dr.Tengus and potentially pre-mutalist Alad V.

Since the Infestation is said to have gone berserk when we killed the Orokin Elite on Lotus(Natah)'s orders, it would make sense that the Orokin Elite had originally designed controls for the Bio-mechanical organisms linked to themselves or entities linked to them, but that gets into vague and cloudy waters admittedly. The important take away is the nature of the infestation is to continue, consume, and remake mater to follow whatever purpose or precept the Orokin Elite gave them at the time. Sentient being immune to this is admittedly odd; but is stated in-game as being the case. If one wanted to change Plague Star from this, saying that the Iridite, Nistlepods, and Maprico were are using are just naturally bad for Techoncyte; then that would be absolutely fine plot wise - since very little suggests Sentient Immunity otherwise!

Spoiler

Technocyte IS a virus. or more specifically a parasite. And where did this sudden life cycle come from? Where in the lore mentions this? 

Well that makes sense doesn't it? It's a techno-organic parasite, what other function is there other than to constantly consume anything that's not infested. The Orokin used technocyte as a biological pathogen against the sentients which obviously the Sentients showed immunity to sicne it failed and backfired. The reason for using it against the Sentients is fine but technocyte or was used in warframes purely because it provided the biological tissue that could be used to create surrogate bodies. Warframes can be controlled as seen in once 

All infestation is linked to a hive mind no matter if it's different strains or not it's still the same virus. Lephantis is an Old War relic that seemingly enough possesses enough intelligence to speak albeit it's still restricted to the behavior of wanting to consume everything like a virus does. J3-Golem was a ship cephalon corrupted by infestation, hence it was able to speak but still retained the behaviour to consume same with Phorid. Alad V was in control before the infestation finally corrupted his mind adn like the others, regressed into a behaviour into wanting to infect everything. And we provided the cure for his infestation btw during the tubemen of Regor event. It's how he severed himself from their control in the first place is the question.

The need to consume and assimilate everything is a basic function of a biological pathogen. The orokin may have had a way to control them but that is unkown and unlikely since there was mention of a great plague which means that the orokin lost control of the pathogen they created once. 

It makes sense for Sentient to be immune to the infestation. Adaptation plays a role in it and the fact that the bio-weapon had no effect on them in their war with the orokin before the tenno came into play. Eidolon Phylaxis directly confirms that sentients are immune to technocyte just like Warframes (because their skin is made from infested tissue and/or because of something Helminth did) and Tenno (for whatever reason). And I think the fact that we aren't using any eidolon materials is purely because the grind for them would be horrendous, especially since it is an event and people would complain about having to grind bounties to then craft Eidolon Phylaxis.

 

 

[Urlan]

@ShadowExodusThe part of the Silver Grove, if you want to read it, is the Apothic entries. It details Silvana being called to assist Margulis in creating what came to be known as warframes to act as therapy for the Tenno children. Ballas presents prime variants to his peers in this trailers and claims to be their creator, this is a claim also made by the Queens in War Within so either they were part of the project and thus under Ballas or being Orokin Elite is enough that being in charge is good enough for taking credit. Silvana is the one listed as making the warframes and doing so for Margulis originally (under Ballas) presenting Titania (according to the Blueprints a normal one) to Ballas who was overjoyed. Now, this opens up any warframe designs after Titania maybe not being done by Silvana; or that the others were made first but has not said Ballas made any. Considering that Saryn, Oberon, and Loki specters are presented as guardians of the Silver Grove in their deluxe skins; it would be pretty logical to consider those warframes already done by the time Silvana went AWOL.

As for Quill, you want the Onkko Quotes section http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Onkko/Quotes

Ask him about Onkko and his relationship with Saya. Quill Onkko will mention that he can see the future and not just one but various possibilities. Upon meeting the Tenno, stating that he has known you, will know you, and has known of you before you entered the door. If you simply sit around in Quill Onkko's cave, and listen to him talking, he is coordinating other Quill on other Planetary nodes about things that coulld be affecting causality and informing the people involved of the consequences of their actions in those locations; worrying about changes caused that could create uncontrolled results. Quill Onkko demonstrates awareness, perhaps from his Link to the Unum, as he implies; that shows the ability to perceive the past, present, and future as well as the potentiality of the myriad choices and effects of taking those paths. This kind of awareness is not quite Omniscience, but is a state called Quantum Awareness; in that the person or thing is able to draw upon the possibilities of their time and places all being branches off of singular potentialities that each branch off of others. These points that can affect such changes in state are called Nodes or which each having infinite possibilities or branches. The meeting place of these different potentialities of the same nodes are called a Nexus. And act as observable junctions at which the different potentialities could diverge or join to flow along similar or dissimilar paths. As it is Quill Onkko Primary, this version of Onkko speaking to us is what would be called the Prime or Root version of this character, place, or idea. The most mean variance of differences would then be a Simple Nexus or meeting place of these potentialities. Some links that might help with these theories are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis

http://www.axonnsays.com/2014/10/free-will-as-a-function-of-the-multiverse-can-explain-quantum-paradoxes/

While this link is great for identifying the ideas in some pop culture examples.

https://www.universeguide.com/fact/multiverse

Stalker displays adaptive armor and abilities in tune with Hunhow Shards when using his Pakal armor and War as one can observe from fighting him post 2nd Dream. This is instead of using his warframe abilities which normal Stalker uses prior.

As for a Virus, you are aware that viruses are not living creatures but rather RNA stands stored in malformed proteins? It is very logical to consider Technocyte parasitical, since it is made to modify other organisms or materials but the nature of Technocyte is an organic cell element joined with nanobots. The result as described in looking at Nanospores and other infested growths shows similarities to Bacterial or Fungal life cycles collecting organic material to make large colonies that then spread in an aerosol manner throughout a location as spores that then in turn form further colonies and growths. Viruses do not live, they are more biological instructions, parts of biological code that could make something that connects onto biological stuff like cells, proteins, or enzymes to reprogram the materials. As for their use, the Infested were used as a bio-weapon, but no mention is made of the Orokin trying to infect the Sentient with the Technocyte directly though as stated, it would have made sense for a techno-organic nanoswarm would be quite useful against the Sentient as both are highly adaptive but immunity is immunity. Consider a real virus like Chickenpox since you brought up viruses, if one is immune, they can't get infected, the Zoster Virus can't get in and do anything - it can't connect - but a person can be infected by Chickenpox and gain resistance, due to the way Chickenpox works, it hides in the infected person's nervous system allowing the body to develop resistance through antibodies - this process is often called "immunization" but is actually the body adapting its defenses to protect against and resist but not become immune to the virus. Immune systems mostly work this way in the real world. Something immune is immune, but otherwise we are infected and build resistance or die. This is not particular to viral infections however and is true of any foreign body invading your own. The need to propagate and consume is a need of all life and is not restricted to bacteria, fungus, mold, or more complex organisms.

No one implied Mutalist Alad V wasn't given a Cure developed from stolen Tyl Regor research but what is important about the example control organisms given are that they don't seem to share awareness of each particular quirk these strains have. Lephantis is a bio-weapon made to lead Infested during the Old War and is the source of the Infested hoards coming from the Derelict and Phorid mostly seems to share the same or similar awareness considering Dr Tengus got the infestation from the Derelicts; Jordas Golem however is identified by his desiring to trick other Cephalons and ships into getting infected by it; forming more Jordas Golems as dealt with during the Jordas Verdict and Precept. Jordas is a mouth piece but due to the nature of his integration his mind is constantly interjected with with his strain's hunger and insidiousness. Mutalist Alad V's strain was from experimentation on warframe technocyte and potentially organisms from the Phorid line of Dr Tengus escapees and display a desire of unity as with all Infested, but wanting to make an 'Empire' of such filtering through Alad V's own still individual mind. The importance is that Mutalist Alad V was being a control organism and this implies that while the Technocyte sees and identifies itself as like and of oneness, they are do not show a unified hivemind. Lephantis,Phorid, and Mutalist Alad V don't demand Pheliac pods to serve their addiction, they don't try to trick us with bait and switches Mutalist Alad V tries to get us to join his strain willingly, none of the others do - though this might be more due to the relative strong mind of Alad V Jordas didn't do the same and he was a Cephalon who would have had to have existed for at least a thousand years. A unified Hive mind would have no variance though, since its one mind. We instead see strong organism actings as directors for more animalistic ones with a mind for several parts of the same body. The warframes also don't have any link to some greater mind as far as we have yet seen, despite being Technocyte organisms which confuses Lephantis, Phorid, and the infested side of Jordas Golem.

Eidolon gems refer to Nyth and Sentrium one a stone touched and changed by Breath of Eidolon, those gases only found on the Plains and the other is supposed to be made of the original Sentient Organism's fossilized blood fluids. These are described as connected to the Eidolon. As far as Phylaxis not using more obvious Eidolon resources to craft, when has grind stopped DE if they felt it was for the best?😄 The resources are used in a mixture because that is how saturated with Eidolon energy they are. I am not sure why you keep returning to the Eidolon being a Sentient. We know its a Sentient, it is part of that faction and made up of Sentient parts (and trees and rocks, and soon Unum meat) but these are not the Sentient that attacked Earth at the beginning of the Fall - as you can see from the remains all over the plave and from Quill Onkko's helpful lore entries about the Gara Sentient legend, the original Sentient was a complete Sentient organism with a malevolent but cunning will. The Eidolons are still Sentient but no longer that original Sentient that attacked the Unum; that thing went boomy - and the main casualty being its mind - think of it as the opposite of Hunhow. Hunhow's not dead though his body is defeated and inactive on the seabeds of Uranus while the nameless Sentient of the Plains was broken and scattered across the place - only its parts remain - like cells trying to stay alive after a human has died. They are human cells, but not a human. Same of the Eidolons, organisms that exist as former parts of a much greater Sentient that now are creatively unique to their original Host Sentient's form which according to the rubble was more similar to Hunhow's own.

[Kidkilla]

On ‎2018‎-‎06‎-‎05 at 1:18 AM, Urlan said:

The Simaris lore puts the Grineer rebellion in full swing shortly following or close enough to the Orokin Elite Massacre, during this same round about time period called the Fall, the Sentient that would become the Eidolon was rampaging around ancient Earth (ER in Quill's lore entry from Saya's Vigil) and would eventually be taken down by Gara and Unum with some kind of Void bomb (maybe a small Void Cascade bomb) while the survivors of the Massacre tried to a escape a tower that had civilians as the infested were going amok and taking over. The Queens likely saw this as their chance to seize power and had their own Military Grineer throughout the Empire to move when weakness showed, alternatively Veytok organized his own rebellion that came under the Queen's control with no one else to overcome their commands. During the tail end of this period, we are winding down and going into cryostasis with a few saving Lorists, and potentially the Sands of Inaros' Tenno met their end against a storm of infested invading the lands of Baro's ancestors; it is also likely that Lotus moved Lua into the Void during this time; but it would be difficult then for the Arcane machines and Hunhow to know this unless the machines directly conveyed Lotus' actions to the Sentient forces as some theories believe. The survivors of the lower caste Orokin society eventually grouped together into family merchant units and started calling themselves the Corpus - an Orokin term for one's "family or skill teaching unit" becoming one of the great powers in the wake of the Fall. Eventually, the infested themselves were cleaned out except from small pockets according to the Lotus, those in the Derelict and perhaps Eris (that part is less clear) and were introduced around the waking of the Tenno much later by Dr. Tengus and maybe Alad V due to his experimentation on warframes.

As far as we know, Ballas didn't personally create warframes; but was in charge as an Executor of the projectl first through his love Archimedian Margulis who go the one who at least designed the orginals up to Titania, Silvana; an Orokin Scientist specializing in Technocyte bio-engineering. After Silvana fled the project as it was becoming directed towards the war by Ballas, the Executor sent Dax forces to kill her and burn her work on Earth to the ground. We get blueprints for the Titania that defended Silvana as she transferenced into the Grove and much like the other quest warframes, it is a normal model warframe versus a prime.Ballas however didn't stop the warframe project, and kept it going, even giving briefings and presentations to his fellow Executors about the improved Prime versions as displayed with the Prime Trailers. So I would agree on this point totally.

Part of the problem involving Ballas making a Sentient or particularly Eidolon Warframe as this one is called; is that Quill - a guy who can see both forward and backward in time as well as other parallel versions of the possibilities of the choices of these realities says Sentient are immune to Technocyte. We in Plague Star event use materials and plants that have been exposed to Eidolon energies to improve the poisoning of Hek's beloved Boil. On the other hand, warframes are meant to channel Void energy and use it to fuel themselves as we transference into them, and also power their abilities - such an situation that would degrade or disperse Sentient energies as displayed by the Eidolon Warframe's Breath of Eidolon leaking from its head and chest. Basically, making a Hybrid of such two materials being suggested impossible in-setting; and both having natures that would destroy the other if successful. To top this off, considering the Sentient energy is obviously Eidolon energy as the Devstream and Summary display; and it requires such a creature even if somehow successful to be created during a time-frame when the Orokin Empire was shattered and while Ballas seemingly found a way to cheat death; the Warframe project would have not been continued considering the Fall going down everywhere when Eidolons would have eventually formed in the centuries after Gara blowing the original huge Sentient up.

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You're forgetting that Ballas admitted he was playing both sides during the flash back scenes in the Sacrifice and that Umbra was a direct result of that (I'm guessing that the Stalker and his followers are also Umbra). If DE want to go down this road, I'm sure they'll make the lore fit that he found a way to make Vlad.

Regardless, I've not been this excited about a frame since Nidus. Looking forward to it!

[konaka123]

3 hours ago, Kidkilla said:

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You're forgetting that Ballas admitted he was playing both sides during the flash back scenes in the Sacrifice and that Umbra was a direct result of that (I'm guessing that the Stalker and his followers are also Umbra). If DE want to go down this road, I'm sure they'll make the lore fit that he found a way to make Vlad.

Regardless, I've not been this excited about a frame since Nidus. Looking forward to it!

The previous response was posted before the sacrifice was released.