*Semi-Spoilers* Can someone explain to me...

[Ceadeus]

Why I would ever take Sacrificial Pressure over Prime Pressure point?  Prime Pressure Point: 165% Melee Damage.  Sacrificial Pressure: 110% Melee Damage.  Wot?

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

Mainly for killing sentients.  

They haven't come out and officially revealed it - but the game has been leaning towards the Sentient Outpost in the Tau System for some time now - and given where a certain character claimed to be going at the end of the quest, I think it's safe surmise what will be announced at Tennocon this year - or maybe sometime in the near future.  

In which case Tau resistance from the mod set (which protects against sentients) will prove handy.  Is it worth the loss of damage though? as of yet we don't know.

I'd say for now the mod is relatively useless - but will prove to be much more of a boon later on. 

Edited June 15, 2018 by (PS4)lagrue

[Brandr_]

Because coupling it with the crit mod levels both of them up, and depending on the weapon that crit chance is worth more than pure damage

[Clem2-TheClemening]

5 minutes ago, wolf96781 said:

Because coupling it with the crit mod levels both of them up, and depending on the weapon that crit chance is worth more than pure damage

Blood Rush is still better. After even one combo level, it surpasses it, and it doesn't need the new polarity.

[(PSN)randy_lahey__--]

1 hour ago, Clem2-TheClemening said:

Blood Rush is still better. After even one combo level, it surpasses it, and it doesn't need the new polarity.

U cant put on the new polaritys they are only on umbra and his new sword. If you remove them u cant get them back either. 

[45neo]

3 hours ago, Clem2-TheClemening said:

Blood Rush is still better. After even one combo level, it surpasses it, and it doesn't need the new polarity.

blood rush scales with any crit mods you have, so having sacrificial steel will make blood rush scale faster that with true steel

[45neo]

Sacrificial pressure isn't really much of an upgrade except vs sentients, where the extra damage to sentients acts as an additional damage multiplier. As stated above coupling it with Sacrificial steel boosts them both. When both are equipped and maxed sacrificial pressure ends up being only 30% less melee damage multiplier than primed pressure point, but sacrificial steel will be 53% more crit chance multiplier. Which scales with blood rush meaning on blood rush builds you will end up with more damage over time than using primed pressure point and true steel.

Edited June 15, 2018 by 45neo

[Clem2-TheClemening]

18 minutes ago, 45neo said:

blood rush scales with any crit mods you have, so having sacrificial steel will make blood rush scale faster that with true steel

Even then, I can't think of any situations you would use Blood Rush, Organ shatter AND true/sacrifical steel.

[45neo]

6 hours ago, Clem2-TheClemening said:

Even then, I can't think of any situations you would use Blood Rush, Organ shatter AND true/sacrifical steel.

you would use true steel over organ shatter, except in some VERY fringe situations (huge crit damage and reeeeally low crit chance) true/sacrificial steel will provide better scaling than organ shatter... I have done the calculations before.

[Clem2-TheClemening]

6 minutes ago, 45neo said:

you would use true steel over organ shatter, except in some VERY fringe situations (huge crit damage and reeeeally low crit chance) true/sacrificial steel will provide better scaling than organ shatter... I have done the calculations before.

Good to know, I usually go status for melee.

[Clem2-TheClemening]

1 hour ago, 45neo said:

you would use true steel over organ shatter, except in some VERY fringe situations (huge crit damage and reeeeally low crit chance) true/sacrificial steel will provide better scaling than organ shatter... I have done the calculations before.

I just did the calculations myself. Primed Pressure Point + Sacrificial Steel beats Sacrificial Pressure + Sacrificial Steel. 

Organ Shatter always beats Sacrificial Steel

Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11F5_ntX7ePWL8Wz3zCa8XMRmXgiCFgbfI2YOm2LT9JI/edit?usp=sharing

Edited June 16, 2018 by Clem2-TheClemening
Fixed calculations regarding blood rush

[Starcanum]

1 hour ago, 45neo said:

you would use true steel over organ shatter, except in some VERY fringe situations (huge crit damage and reeeeally low crit chance) true/sacrificial steel will provide better scaling than organ shatter... I have done the calculations before.

That's weird, considering the huge crit damage + low crit chance would benefit from crit damage less than avg crit damage + avg crit chance, 5% CC x3 CD gives you (1+0.05*((3*1.9)-1))/((1+0.05*(3-1))=1.12 while 20% crit x1.5 CD gives you (1+0.2*((1.5*1.9)-1))/((1+0.2*(1.5-1))=1.245 dps increase. And comparing it to true steel/s steel in both of those cases, (1+(0.05*1.6)*(3-1))/((1+0.05*(3-1))=1.055, (1+(0.05*2.1)*(3-1))/((1+0.05*(3-1))=1.1, (1+(0.2*1.6)*(1.5-1))/((1+0.2*(1.5-1))=1.055, (1+(0.2*2.1)*(1.5-1))/((1+0.2*(1.5-1))=1.1.

Take the case with Blood Rush 3x combo counter and, for example, 15% CC x1.9 CD (Skiajati's stats), and compare Organ Shatter vs Sacrificial Steel:

OS: (1+0.15*(1+1.65*3)*(1.9*1.9-1))/(1+0.15*(1+1.65*3)*(1.9-1))=1.85
SS: (1+0.15*2.1*(1+1.65*3)*(1.9-1))/(1+0.15*(1+1.65*3)*(1.9-1))=1.49

Even without considering the +1.65 => +1.375 flat damage increase, Organ Shatter is vastly superior.

 

Some reason for the Sacrificial Steel + Sacrificial Pressure would be the exalted weapons. You can't use blood rush there, so it might be beneficial to use at least some source of crit chance and the slot is open. However, by using those mods, you sacrifice the Primed Pressure point. If you take Exalted Blade, the base stats are 15% CC x2 CD, so the combo of s steel + s pressure (implying you already include os as well) gives you 2.375*(1+0.15*2.1*(2*1.9-1))/(1+0.15*(2*1.9-1))=3.148 damage. By using Primed Pressure Point instead in one of the slots, you'd already have 2.65 of that, so your other slot would only have to give you 3.148/2.65=1.19 increase, which is very easy to achieve. Just for the fun of it, let's calculate the damage increase of Sacrificial Steel + Primed Pressure Point, 2.65*(1+0.15*1.88*(2*1.9-1))/(1+0.15*(2*1.9-1))=3.34, still more than the umbra combo.

[Clem2-TheClemening]

1 minute ago, Starcanum said:

That's weird, considering the huge crit damage + low crit chance would benefit from crit damage less than avg crit damage + avg crit chance, 5% CC x3 CD gives you (1+0.05*((3*1.9)-1))/((1+0.05*(3-1))=1.12 while 20% crit x1.5 CD gives you (1+0.2*((1.5*1.9)-1))/((1+0.2*(1.5-1))=1.245 dps increase. And comparing it to true steel/s steel in both of those cases, (1+(0.05*1.6)*(3-1))/((1+0.05*(3-1))=1.055, (1+(0.05*2.1)*(3-1))/((1+0.05*(3-1))=1.1, (1+(0.2*1.6)*(1.5-1))/((1+0.2*(1.5-1))=1.055, (1+(0.2*2.1)*(1.5-1))/((1+0.2*(1.5-1))=1.1.

Take the case with Blood Rush 3x combo counter and, for example, 15% CC x1.9 CD (Skiajati's stats), and compare Organ Shatter vs Sacrificial Steel:

OS: (1+0.15*(1+1.65*3)*(1.9*1.9-1))/(1+0.15*(1+1.65*3)*(1.9-1))=1.85
SS: (1+0.15*2.1*(1+1.65*3)*(1.9-1))/(1+0.15*(1+1.65*3)*(1.9-1))=1.49

Even without considering the +1.65 => +1.375 flat damage increase, Organ Shatter is vastly superior.

 

Some reason for the Sacrificial Steel + Sacrificial Pressure would be the exalted weapons. You can't use blood rush there, so it might be beneficial to use at least some source of crit chance and the slot is open. However, by using those mods, you sacrifice the Primed Pressure point. If you take Exalted Blade, the base stats are 15% CC x2 CD, so the combo of s steel + s pressure (implying you already include os as well) gives you 2.375*(1+0.15*2.1*(2*1.9-1))/(1+0.15*(2*1.9-1))=3.148 damage. By using Primed Pressure Point instead in one of the slots, you'd already have 2.65 of that, so your other slot would only have to give you 3.148/2.65=1.19 increase, which is very easy to achieve. Just for the fun of it, let's calculate the damage increase of Sacrificial Steel + Primed Pressure Point, 2.65*(1+0.15*1.88*(2*1.9-1))/(1+0.15*(2*1.9-1))=3.34, still more than the umbra combo.

I had blood rush calculated wrong. Spreadsheet updated, it matches your math

[(PSN)vl_Monarch_lv]

I wonder...

The Sacrificial CC mod is a higher percentage than the standard, does it even out?

[45neo]

39 minutes ago, Clem2-TheClemening said:

I just did the calculations myself. Primed Pressure Point + Sacrificial Steel beats Sacrificial Pressure + Sacrificial Steel. 

Organ Shatter always beats Sacrificial Steel

Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11F5_ntX7ePWL8Wz3zCa8XMRmXgiCFgbfI2YOm2LT9JI/edit?usp=sharing

try calculating at higher combo amounts (i.e. 3) http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Rush/Crit_Calculation the way blood rush works base crit chance is crit chance after applying crit chance mods

form wiki 

Quote

Crit Chance = Modded Crit Chance × (1 + Blood Rush Multiplier × Combo Multiplier)

For example, a weapon with 15% base critical chance, modded with maxed True Steel (+60%) and Blood Rush, and with a Combo Counter of 2.5x would reach 0.15 × 1.6 × (1 + 1.65 × 2.5) = 123% chance to crit.

The reason why this results in more damage is because of crit levels. Sacrificial steel allows you to reach higher crit levels faster and turns out being at a higher crit level beats being at a lower crit level and doing more crit damage per level 

Edited June 16, 2018 by 45neo

[Starcanum]

Just now, 45neo said:

try calculating at higher combo amounts (i.e. 3) http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Rush/Crit_Calculation the way blood rush works base crit chance is crit chance after applying crit chance mods

 

I calculated it as 3 for you. The math is actually very simple. The calculation in question is:
1+CC*(1+ccmods)*(1+1.65*counter)*(CD*(1+cdmods)-1).
Thus, adding the cc mod without the cd mods will add its value multiplied by CC*(1+1.65*counter)*(CD-1)
Adding the cd mod without the cc ones will add its value multiplied by CC*(1+1.65*counter)*CD.

So, in order for the cd mod to even out with the cc mod at any combo counter, its value has to be (CD-1)/CD of the cc mod's value, and that difference is getting closer to 1 as the CD increases, so your implication of "CD mods are only better with very high base CD" is actually reverse (always false with our current CD numbers on any weapon). For example, for Skiajati, (1.9-1)/1.9=0.47, so for a CC mod to overpass the organ shatter, you'd need a CC mod of 90%/0.47=190% value. We've only got 110% which is far from enough.

[45neo]

8 minutes ago, Starcanum said:

I calculated it as 3 for you. The math is actually very simple. The calculation in question is:
1+CC*(1+ccmods)*(1+1.65*counter)*(CD*(1+cdmods)-1).
Thus, adding the cc mod without the cd mods will add its value multiplied by CC*(1+1.65*counter)*(CD-1)
Adding the cd mod without the cc ones will add its value multiplied by CC*(1+1.65*counter)*CD.

So, in order for the cd mod to even out with the cc mod at any combo counter, its value has to be (CD-1)/CD of the cc mod's value, and that difference is getting closer to 1 as the CD increases, so your implication of "CD mods are only better with very high base CD" is actually reverse (always false with our current CD numbers on any weapon). For example, for Skiajati, (1.9-1)/1.9=0.47, so for a CC mod to overpass the organ shatter, you'd need a CC mod of 90%/0.47=190% value. We've only got 110% which is far from enough.

Quote

Total Crit Multiplier = Crit Level × (Crit Multiplier − 1) + 1 (warframe official wiki http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Hit )

you are forgetting to factor in the mechanics of crit levels, because of how the calculations are done having a higher bas critical multiplier begins to fall off at higher crit levels... not to mention the fact that with CC mods blood rush reaches higher crit levels faster. So yes organ shatter isn't worth it unless you have a high crit multiplier already on the weapon of choice. Otherwise CC mods outscale CD mods

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by 45neo

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

For sentient boost and also it will help boost the other mod.

[Starcanum]

13 minutes ago, 45neo said:

you are forgetting to factor in the mechanics of crit levels 

I'm not, I'm factoring them in within the 1+CC*(CD-1). CC can go above 1 in this formula. For CC=2 (which is 100% orange crit), you're getting 1+2*(CD-1) which is exactly what the wiki says.

For the fractional CC amounts, 1+CC*(CD-1) breaks down into a sum of 1 + CC_wh*(CD-1) + CC_f*(CD-1).
When you approach it from the crit levels side, the fractional CC means that you've got a CC_f chance to get a next level crit (CC_wh+1) and a (1-CC_f) chance to get the old crit CC_wh. Put it into the formula: (1-CC_f)*(1+(CC_wh)*(CD-1))+(CC_f)*(1+(CC_wh+1)*(CD-1)) = 1+(CC_wh)*(CD-1) - CC_f*(1+(CC_wh)*(CD-1)) + CC_f*(1+(CC_wh)*(CD-1)) + CC_f*(CD-1) = 1+CC_wh*(CD-1)+CC_f*(CD-1), reaching the same result.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Starcanum

[45neo]

2 minutes ago, Starcanum said:

I'm not, I'm factoring them in within the 1+CC*(CD-1). CC can go above 1 in this formula. For CC=2 (which is 100% orange crit), you're getting 1+2*(CD-1) which is exactly what the wiki says.

For the fractional CC amounts, 1+CC*(CD-1) breaks down into a sum of 1+CC_wh*(CD-1) + CC_f*(CD-1).
When you approach it from the crit levels side, the fractional CC means that you've got a CC_f chance to get a next level crit (CC_wh+1) and a (1-CC_f) chance to get the old crit CC_wh. Put it into the formula: (1-CC_f)*(1+(CC_wh)*(CD-1))+(CC_f)*(1+(CC_wh+1)*(CD-1)) = 1+(CC_wh)*(CD-1) - CC_f*(1+(CC_wh)*(CD-1)) + CC_f*(1+(CC_wh)*(CD-1)) + CC_f*(CD-1) = 1+CC_wh*(CD-1)+CC_f*(CD-1), reaching the same result.

I still feel there is something wrong here. I have done these calculations before and determined that (with double checking) BR + TS > BR + OS... it's fine if you don't believe me but that's the results I have gotten

[Starcanum]

Just now, 45neo said:

I still feel there is something wrong here. I have done these calculations before and determined that (with double checking) BR + TS > BR + OS... it's fine if you don't believe me but that's the results I have gotten

I've provided the results with the calculations though. I don't mean any offense, but I don't care about believing you or how you "feel" about the math. If you do find something wrong, feel free to present your reasoning or something that I missed. I might be unaware of some hidden interactions (like I was about the increased headshot crit modifier until recently), so I'd appreciate the input.

[Starcanum]

1 hour ago, Starcanum said:

Some reason for the Sacrificial Steel + Sacrificial Pressure would be the exalted weapons. You can't use blood rush there, so it might be beneficial to use at least some source of crit chance and the slot is open. However, by using those mods, you sacrifice the Primed Pressure point. If you take Exalted Blade, the base stats are 15% CC x2 CD, so the combo of s steel + s pressure (implying you already include os as well) gives you 2.375*(1+0.15*2.1*(2*1.9-1))/(1+0.15*(2*1.9-1))=3.148 damage. By using Primed Pressure Point instead in one of the slots, you'd already have 2.65 of that, so your other slot would only have to give you 3.148/2.65=1.19 increase, which is very easy to achieve. Just for the fun of it, let's calculate the damage increase of Sacrificial Steel + Primed Pressure Point, 2.65*(1+0.15*1.88*(2*1.9-1))/(1+0.15*(2*1.9-1))=3.34, still more than the umbra combo.

A bit of vital information that I forgot to add as I was mostly focused on the CC vs CD mods comparison. Since both the CC and CD mods scale in efficiency with the base CC/CD stats of weapons, the "1.19" value is only true for the Exalted Blade. Using the same calculations for the Hysteria is going to lead you to 3.90 increase on damage with Sacrificial combo, so it means you'd have to get at least 1.47 increase on the other slot along with PPP to make it better, which is a lot more difficult. However, Sacrificial Steel alone at 88% gives you a 1.51 increase (with organ shatter already in), so PPP+Sacrificial Steel is still going to be better than Sacrificial combo on Hysteria, leading you to 4.01 increase from those 2 mods.