De-rank Mods at Will

[ImSpathi]

It would be fantastic if there was a way to de-rank mods to fit on weapons, since sometimes you only need 1-2 points to fit something else in while formaing ect.... Say you have a rank 5 lethal torrent but are short one capacity, well you could lower the power of the mod to rank 4. Preferably, the mod would still be a rank 5 mod, but you're just not utilizing it to its full potential. Any leveled mod should have the ability to be used at a lower rank at any time. Would be a great quality of life change, especially for primed warframe mods.

[peterc3]

This would increase the complexity of mods, to the point it is heavily implied it won't happen and DE isn't really going to try and make it happen. This is not the first time this has been asked and likely not the last, but DE seems rather firm on it.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Just to be clear, you're suggesting that a game about grinding, where all changes are permanent unless you re-grind, and all mods you get are able to be infinitely gained as long as you grind... that you give players the ability to get just one copy of the mod they need and be able to change its rank to suit themselves after they've invested in it?

Heresy!! XD

Joking aside, I don't think you're getting the function of a grind-based looter here. The answer for 'I want to be able to use a lower-ranked version of this mod' will always just be 'get a second copy' because the idea is to keep you grinding, to keep you playing those modes that get the mods.

It's built this way. And any suggestion that would reduce grind without compensatory changes to how valuable the reward is... not going to happen XD

And that's quite apart from the additional server load necessary to store that data for millions of registered players... I mean, even if it's just an extra line in the database, it's an extra line for every single mod, in every single collection, for every single player, multiplied across every single A/B/C build you have, coupled with the Loadout it's attached too... I mean wow... that's a lot of data for something so small. I don't know about you, but I've got several hundred copies of some mods,and if every single one of them had to include an additional data-line for 'ranked to X level, currently Y level' that wouldn't be easy on the loading times for your mod bench. Let alone for the game accessing DE's servers five thousand times a second.

[OptimumBow0]

If DE were to implement an over-fusion option that allowed such a convenience, I would be down with that. Basically, just put in a TON of credits and endo into a mod to unlock re-ranking. The cost would have to be slightly higher than owning the same number of mods with all different ranks to balance convenience against owning an equivalent number of copies.

With that, it would cost a lot more for a 10-rank than a 3 rank to be unlocked (vitality vs ammo drum cost). Rarity offset would be a given, too (ammo drum vs lethal torrent cost).

It'd be an interesting option to have. That said, this idea has been lying around the forums for so long. It's criminal.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I think players should be committed to their actions in modding.

When you choose to rank a mod, think carefully about whether you want to or not. This basically seems like a thread where people who realized Umbra mods are better not fully ranked want a redo.

[Ninjamurai]

While this doesn't really seem like a feature that would be added, if it were added it would need a counter-balance to how convenient it would be. Like if you have a mod that's too high ranked for your needs, de-ranking it would not refund any credits or endo (Or only refunds a diminished amount). Or possibly cost credits to de-rank.

I do also find that I get caught with good mods just not being able to fit onto builds that I want. But the way I see it, if a mod is really that good, then you will find a way to make it work or sacrifice something else for it. Even if that means spending another forma & getting back to level 30, or farming for/trading for another copy of said mod.

[OptimumBow0]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I think players should be committed to their actions in modding.

When you choose to rank a mod, think carefully about whether you want to or not. This basically seems like a thread where people who realized Umbra mods are better not fully ranked want a redo.

Ain't even played the quest yet, it's just QoL. If it involved an insane amount of credits + endo more than what's required for max rank, then I'd say that preserves whatever commitment players have to mods. It's not a bad idea, especially if it was something you had to especially invest more for.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 minutes ago, OptimumBow0 said:

Ain't even played the quest yet, it's just QoL.

One player's 'Quality of Life' is another Developer's 'bypassing deliberate limitations' ^^

[OptimumBow0]

12 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

One player's 'Quality of Life' is another Developer's 'bypassing deliberate limitations' ^^

Hence make it cost something extra. If it was to be a choice, not a bypass, then I don't see much wrong with it. Especially if most use it to tweak their mods just a few ranks up and down. It's not so far-fetched given the MR-mod-point-unlock mechanic on all equipment.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 minutes ago, OptimumBow0 said:

Hence make it cost something extra.

Heh, I'm really not trying to start an argument, but do you seriously think that there's any cost in this game that a player can't actually just blitz through? I mean, we've gotten to the point where if Focus wasn't capped out completely by your MR, a player could actually finish it in 44 hours of play instead of several months.

In point of fact, if you're the kind of player willing to get the extra resources for this, why not just get a second mod and not rank it up to max? There are only 5 in the game right now that you can't do that with because they're quest rewards, but you can guarantee they'll return with whatever new system is introduced with The New War.

And if you say that you'd make it prohibitively expensive, then where's the point?

When the solution is as simple as farm a second copy, which is probably less time and effort than acquiring the resources to pay for the ability to set that mod to a different rank at will... then where's any incentive to use that function?

And then there's also that data issue I mentioned before... imagine if they no longer had to maintain only 10 potential states for any given mod, and all your data storage just said was 'Mod X, rank 0' and then suddenly had to go, for every single mod, an extra line of data saying 'ranked to X' and 'currently set to rank X'. Even thought that's a very small amount of additional data, that's not just doubling the data for the mods, that's potentially forcing the game to maintain a database for millions of individual players' custom settings for multiple mods... At a conservative estimate that's anywhere between double and quintuple the server space and loading times for accessing mods on your account.

Kind of worrying, no?

[OptimumBow0]

17 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

...

And if you say that you'd make it prohibitively expensive, then where's the point?

...

And then there's also that data issue I mentioned before... imagine if they no longer had to maintain only 10 potential states for any given mod, and all your data storage just said was 'Mod X, rank 0' and then suddenly had to go, for every single mod, an extra line of data saying 'ranked to X' and 'currently set to rank X'. Even thought that's a very small amount of additional data, that's not just doubling the data for the mods, that's potentially forcing the game to maintain a database for millions of individual players' custom settings for multiple mods... At a conservative estimate that's anywhere between double and quintuple the server space and loading times for accessing mods on your account.

It's nice to have? The devs like the idea, it's just not a priority as Rebecca has pointed out:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/526492-suggestion-to-de-unforma-ing-and-selectable-mod-ranks/?tab=comments#comment-5898587

As for the server issue, adding a few extra numbers, one or two bytes, to each mod would total about .5 a kilobyte (9 categories, average 60-50 mods per each, Archwing itself has like 90 mods total) of extra data for a single player. That's equivalent to writing a quarter of a page in Word and is a sneeze to most computers. Player-side would be fine.

On DE's side, 20 million * 0.5 kilobytes = 10 gigabytes total data to make room for. Rough estimate, but still, that is relatively nothing, even if it was doubled. Or quadrupled. Besides, every update they add = lines and lines of code that increases the need for player storage. If it was such a problem, we'd never get new content.

I don't pretend to know how their files are actually organized, but it's not a question of storage/processing. Just the tedium it would take to achieve something, when compared to something like Fortuna, is trivial. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 minutes ago, OptimumBow0 said:

It's nice to have? The devs like the idea, it's just not a priority as Rebecca has pointed out:

Actually, that wasn't quite what she said, if I quote:

Quote

The mod rank selection (sometimes referred to as underclocking) is a good (frankly great) concept but under the hood it is a bit of a nightmare with the way Mod info is stored per account. It is a very, very hard issue to solve,

So yeah, apparently it's very difficult because of the way mod information is stored per account.

Meaning that there would be data issues player-side.

And remember, it's not that there would be the amount of storage, it's the data access. 126,000 consecutive players just last month, all of them accessing that data every single second they're actively playing...  that's a lot of data transfer.

Further than that, she even states the exact same thing I did:

Quote

it technically has a solution in game now with copies of mods

So while the comment does include phrasing to the tune of 'it's not a priority' what she actually says is:

Quote

I don't see it entering the dev's pile of priorities considering how much full their current plate is

Meaning it's not even a 'low' priority, it's not even on the table, it's not even being considered.

I'm sorry to be the negative one in the conversation, but this is as close to a 'that would be cool, but no' as we'll ever see from the Dev team.

[Teridax68]

From what I understand in this conversation, the devs really like the idea of being able to de-rank mods, and the main obstacle is technical limitations. This doesn't sound too horrible, considering how Warframe's tech has been overhauled multiple times in ways that were thought impossible (e.g. particle effects being made far less graphics-intensive with no loss in quality), and the fact that the devs have expressed support for this idea shows that it is being considered, even if it is not being prioritized. Effectively, we don't need to talk about imposing some extra cost or whatever, particularly since fusion already represents a cost to unlock and attain an extra rank in a mod, we just need to wait for DE to get around to updating their mod storage tech (which could also have some implications for Riven mods). Personally, I think the idea's fantastic and deserves to be in the game, even if I don't feel like it needs to happen in the immediate.

[Klokwerkaos]

I agree with others, just grind another copy of the mod... except when it comes to login mods and umbra mods... in those cases it is impossible to get another copy and that sucks.

[Tarak]

My opinion on this is to change how they store data. Currently only settings are stored client-side. They could easily free up a lot of server space by having the loadout and appearance data stored an file (or fileset) client side, and have the game check the file against account ownership of items on login and each time a change is 'saved' (effectivly, leaving the arsenal). They won't do this though, since that would mean changing how a lot of data is stored and opening possible holes for hackers to potentially trick the server into thinking they own things they don't.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, Tarak said:

opening possible holes for hackers to potentially trick the server into thinking they own things they don't.

Yeah... considering the fake Plat problems we already have from stolen credit cards, or cancelled transactions, I would say you're right. That's probably going to be a no-go...

[Teridax68]

I think it would help to at least break down what is and isn't critical information, so that at least some of it could be moved client-side. In my mind, there are two critical factors to any mod that need to be securely known:

• Whether or not the player owns the mod.
• The highest rank at which the player has fused the mod into.

The first prevents players from cheating and giving themselves the mod via hacks, and the second prevents players from using said hacks to bypass credit and Endo costs. With a bit of coding smarts, these could probably be condensed into the same variable, since having any number of ranks in a mod presumes that it is owned (though one would likely need another variable for the total number of owned copies of said mod). Once this is known, however, the only check the server would have to make for any mod is whether the player's rank in it exceeds the value the server had stored for it. If not, which should be the near-totality of cases, then the player should be good to go, no matter their mod's rank. With this model, the player could de-rank mods at will without the server having to check for foul play, and all of this info could be stored client-side, rather than server-side.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Teridax68