De, How Are We Going To Fight Grineers Now?

[Khranitel]

DE stepped on the same rake again with Armor 2.0.

Armor should not have different mechanics than other surface types.

Armor should not reduce every type of damage.

Armor should act only according to its stated resistances.

Armor should be just another type of healthbar, like other surface types.

Just that, plain and simple. Steve and Scott, why you're stubbornly mounting a system (armor's damage reducing) over another same-purposed system (resistances), thus overcomplicating whole construction and seeding potential issues, one of which we have now?

I'm a layman in this matter, but I don't think this decision should be called "decent game design".

As usual, sorry for my English.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Khranitel

[LazerusKI]

in my opinion they should treat Armor like a Shield.

Nothing like x% Resistance to all non-AP Damages, instead...yeah...like a second healthbar with different resistances and vulnerabilities.

The whole "more armor = less damage" is doomed in my opinion

 

edit: oh, i have just seen that Khranitel had the same thoughts^^

Edited December 14, 2013 by LazerusKI

[Eyeless]

I really hope this thread gets the attention it deserves, I myself haven't tested out any Grineer above 35 since this latest patch.

(or should it be called Hot Knife 11.3.3?)

Yet the way it's sounding, this is totally unacceptable, and they're completely going back on what they initially promised with Damage 2.0.

 

I understand it needs work, this won't be easy for any of us, DE or the players, but that doesn't make it okay to just hand us nigh unkillable without something that relies totally on crits like the Soma or constant torrents of damage like the Embolist. 

 

Didn't they say they didn't want enemies acting the way they did with armor pre-U11? 

 

Please people keep this thread alive, even if DE wanted it this way in the end, we sure don't.

[Redmage107]

Bumping this because this is somehow still a problem. Good job DE...

[shut]

I remember when they were saying that Damage 1.0's absurd armor scaling was a big part of why Damage 2.0 was being introduced.

 

Their plan failed. Damage 2.0 has even worse armor issues than Damage 1.0 now. At least Damage 1.0 only required two clips of Despair headshots to down a level 80 Heavy Gunner, whereas in Damage 2.0 it takes seven for a level 30. (Armor-ignore-based builds and same base damage/speed mods, mind you.)

Edited December 15, 2013 by SortaRandom

[Redmage107]

I'm not at home but can someone please post screen shots or videos on the new damage comparison?

[Kyte]

Just wondering, how is the Corrosive status supposed to work? I was under the impression that its status reduced the enemy's damage reduction by 75% (along with the fact that it's strong against armor).

I just ran some tests and it turns out it's just a stacking 7% DR removal, with the removal being from the original amount each time (if the target has 70% DR, then it'll take 10 status procs to remove all DR).

 

Corrosive proc takes off 25% of the armor rating, IIRC.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Kyte

[Shehriazad]

Damage 2.0s' sole purpose was to remove this problem....instead you made it worse while the solution is so easy.....come the hek on DE....fix it... dealing no damage is not a raise in difficulty if that is your goal.

[Kyte]

I remember when they were saying that Damage 1.0's absurd armor scaling was a big part of why Damage 2.0 was being introduced.

 

Their plan failed. Damage 2.0 has even worse armor issues than Damage 1.0 now. At least Damage 1.0 only required two clips of Despair headshots to down a level 80 Heavy Gunner, whereas in Damage 2.0 it takes seven for a level 30. (Armor-ignore-based builds and same base damage/speed mods, mind you.)

Damage 1.0 was still worse for anything that didn't have armor ignore. AP mods and AI weapons were as much a patch as Corrosive & such were before 11.2. The true solution is to redo the armor scaling. (Hell, it's just changing one number in the formula. Anything that grows by an exponent of 2.5 is hilariously broken, anyways)

Edited December 15, 2013 by Kyte

[Bovopolont]

We will kill the Grineer with stones and sticks i say

[ShadowCore67]

I know nothing about the complexities of damage 2.0. All I know is whats good against what and what elements do. And I'm completely fine with this.

[Penthos]

I was introduced to this issue yesterday on T3 defense, since I haven't fought many Grineer since the release of U11.  It was absolutely miserable...

With my cestra I was doing 14 damage to Corrupted Lancers around the last 2 waves.

 

I'll give you my Cestra's stats so you get an idea of what we are dealing with.

 

48.0 Impact

192.0 Puncture - +50% to Armor

216.0 Heat

432.0 Corrosive - +75% to Armor

 

That means per bullet I was effectively doing 1,308 damage to armor.  All of that was reduced by roughly 98.93%.  Something isn't right there...

[Redmage107]

I know nothing about the complexities of damage 2.0. All I know is whats good against what and what elements do. And I'm completely fine with this.

I'd like you to again, read your fellow posters before commenting. It's not that damage 2.0's numbers aren't being applied right. It's that at higher levels the numbers aren't working. Penthos' post which came after yours is a great example of what's wrong with the system right now

[tehous]

I remember when they were saying that Damage 1.0's absurd armor scaling was a big part of why Damage 2.0 was being introduced.

 

Their plan failed. Damage 2.0 has even worse armor issues than Damage 1.0 now. At least Damage 1.0 only required two clips of Despair headshots to down a level 80 Heavy Gunner, whereas in Damage 2.0 it takes seven for a level 30. (Armor-ignore-based builds and same base damage/speed mods, mind you.)

 

Damage 1.0 was still worse for anything that didn't have armor ignore. AP mods and AI weapons were as much a patch as Corrosive & such were before 11.2. The true solution is to redo the armor scaling. (Hell, it's just changing one number in the formula. Anything that grows by an exponent of 2.5 is hilariously broken, anyways)

Maybe they believed that cutting the effect of armor by a third would solve things (and didn't realize it wouldn't and neither the horrible effect this would have on armored frames like the valkyr)?

 

The exponential scaling is the culprit and since armor in warframe gives %mitigation there isn't really any reason to have scaling in the first place. Due to the extreme scarcity of mobs getting health restores, armor is effectively equivalent to a health multiplier. As such simply increasing health scaling and keeping armor static would keep the difficulty scaling (or tedium) while keeping non-armor-bypass mods/weapons usable.

 

Currently we have exponentially scaling armor multiplying (likely) exponentially scaling health for a vastly increased scaling of time to kill.

 

To reiterate, the problem isn't how much armor scales, it's that there's benefit to having armor scaling at all.

[Evanescent]

I just used my maxed out Cestra and Vectis in T3, and i ripped through enemies upto the last wave. i could one-shot lvl50 heavies with the Vectis and 2-3 shot everything else.No elementals on my vectis, and blast and corrosive on cestra. used Ash and had Hate.

 

PS: no, i don't have primed chamber!

[LazerusKI]

even if they would cap the maximum mitigation to like 75% it would be a solution.

but the 99.99% of high-level enemies is just stupid.

[Helljack84]

Did some alerts with high lvl grineer (50+) and a few t3 runs. Aklex and Supra with corrosive damage.

 

High lvl grineer: Lancers and light units can take a few hits, anything else is a walking tank.

 

Void: Everything dies in one or two hits, corpus, infested, robots...everything dies to my anti armor guns. Only armored enemies don't.

It's awe inspiring how 5-10 levels turn enemies from OHK to bullet sponges.

 

On crits: Vs high level armored enemies strange things can happen. I don't have anything to back it up, it just feels like I don't get the amount of crits I should get. On the other hand I get much more damage than expected from crits.

 

 

PS: It was enjoyable to stick with the team and fight some enemies that get more than half a second of screentime.

Even more enjoyable to watch the rushers bleed out in despair.

[(PSN)lsu4life86]

give us a mission or something that cuts off their supply to alloy plate (or whatever their 'armor' is made of) and once completed will 'nerf' them back down to originally strength. Then they can build back those supply chains (every 7-10 days?) and rinse and repeat.

[Eyeless]

give us a mission or something that cuts off their supply to alloy plate (or whatever their 'armor' is made of) and once completed will 'nerf' them back down to originally strength. Then they can build back those supply chains (every 7-10 days?) and rinse and repeat.

 

....just...what?

[thejynxed]

DE stated in the hotfix notes that apparently the armor resists was also affecting the health somehow.

 

Fixed  armor resistances stacking onto health - armor resists are applied the armor value instead. Tone down infested resistances a bit.

[BETAOPTICS]

I can also confirm that the armor seems quite a lot off.

[Redmage107]

I just got back from a long weekend with my family so lemme check some things....

 

give us a mission or something that cuts off their supply to alloy plate (or whatever their 'armor' is made of) and once completed will 'nerf' them back down to originally strength. Then they can build back those supply chains (every 7-10 days?) and rinse and repeat.

...Yea no.

 

This would make high level play determine the scaling for low level play. That's the inverse problem of what's actually happening where low level rebalances have damaged high level play.

 

I just used my maxed out Cestra and Vectis in T3, and i ripped through enemies upto the last wave. i could one-shot lvl50 heavies with the Vectis and 2-3 shot everything else.No elementals on my vectis, and blast and corrosive on cestra. used Ash and had Hate.

 

PS: no, i don't have primed chamber!

Screen shots and build please! I'd love to see what you're doing that we aren't so we can improve!

 

 

I just tested the new damage numbers On Casta and in the void....since nobody's posting screen shots for proof of their super duper builds....it's better but still pretty sketchy at times.

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=203430090

Build for proof

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/504699178714704165/09CBD092C4C86B07F2BF33267351A2C8F5903FEB/

Old Grineer damage numbers

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204528753

These are the new grineer damage numbers

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=203430023

A Corpus trooper for reference. While the Corpus picture is old, damage variance on them is within 10 points with the element changes and they aren't armored so I didn't feel the need to take a screenshot.

 

As you can see in the new system you are capable of doing about 2.5 times as much damage as the old system against an equivalent target, but you're still doing a fifth of your max damage on these weapons. Now let's be entirely clear, this is a marked improvement on the old system but still absolutely terrifying if you consider alert scaling.

 

 

Vectis Comparison screen shots and build. I'm aware my Vectis build isn't ideal but I haven't really done much with it as you can tell by the lack of Forma so....

Build: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204533743

 

Infested Headshot:http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/504699466889997913/72ACF6BBC969772B23CB8148193E751F8EBF9B26/

Grineer Headshot: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204540395

Grineer Non-crit headshot:http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204540241

Infested Non-crit: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204533669

Grineer Light Headshot: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204540200

Infested Non-headshot: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204540417

 

It's clear here that  the damage loss is insane, at one fourth of possible damage being lost in both cases. However as this assumes ideal conditions for Infested, so this should be taken with a grain of salt so this is more of a proof of theory on just how much damage is being lost to armor in best case scenario conditions. Realistically you'll likely to lose just as much damage to armor but unlikely to score as many headshots on infested as my comparison shows there, you will actually deal on average more damage to light targets than you will infested.

 

Body shot comparison between Corpus and Grineer

Grineer: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204533148

Corpus: http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/504699466889967783/5E9CCFAA64313F3FC255FDC8BEDEF4D57736B640/

 

I'll be truthful and admit I've never REALLY known how to read the shield damage numbers through the standard damage numbers but assuming that the crit is being applied as it says it is, a body shot on a grineer light unit looses at the very best two thirds of it's max damage potential, and at worst it remains consistant with my Soma's damage and delivers one fifth of it's total damage to armor assuming I'm hitting for 7k.

 

Twin Gremlin comparison

Build: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204534794

Corpus: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204533793

Grineer: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=20453336

As you can see the damage loss is felt but it's not quite as painful in comparison since the Gremlins are overall damage output is more stable. I need to work on improving my build but it backs my very quick analysis on damage and how it functions in the current system.

 

 

So where does this leave Damage 2.0? I'm still mixed on it. This IS actually legitimately better than before and indeed probably a lot more balanced than before but it ultimately leaves nagging and very terrifying problems given that armor scales much much higher in alerts now....

Edited December 16, 2013 by Redmage107

[Loveshack]

DE stepped on the same rake again with Armor 2.0.

Armor should not have different mechanics than other surface types.

Armor should not reduce every type of damage.

Armor should act only according to its stated resistances.

Armor should be just another type of healthbar, like other surface types.

Just that, plain and simple. Steve and Scott, why you're stubbornly mounting a system (armor's damage reducing) over another same-purposed system (resistances), thus overcomplicating whole construction and seeding potential issues, one of which we have now?

I'm a layman in this matter, but I don't think this decision should be called "decent game design".

As usual, sorry for my English.

This.

Skeet skeet.

[Lunarez]

DE stated in the hotfix notes that apparently the armor resists was also affecting the health somehow.

 

Fixed  armor resistances stacking onto health - armor resists are applied the armor value instead. Tone down infested resistances a bit.

 

that seems to mean it gives enemies bonus armor by a percentage of what they have, instead of granting damage reduction on every mobs when they gain level.

I today running around with my unranked Aklex in level 40 grineer alert, it seems to be able to deal decent damage (40+ per shot) on them even though no mods install. And while in the past my fully modded braton can barely damage level 50 corpus (10+ damage per shot), since the last hotfix it tears everything in its path if modded right.

 

 

- snip -

Vectis Comparison screen shots and build. I'm aware my Vectis build isn't ideal but I haven't really done much with it as you can tell by the lack of Forma so....

Build: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204533743

 

Infested Headshot:http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/504699466889997913/72ACF6BBC969772B23CB8148193E751F8EBF9B26/

Grineer Headshot: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204540395

Grineer Non-crit headshot:http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204540241

Infested Non-crit: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204533669

Grineer Light Headshot: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204540200

Infested Non-headshot: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=204540417

 

Thank you for testing. Well, I think I can explain why the damage was reduced that much by looking at the stat in the Codex. Corrupted Heavy gunner have 500 armor which if you use the armor solution, you should deal around 40% of damage to a level-1 corrupted heavy while doing full damage to corrupt ancient of the same level (since new puncture damage doesn't deal reduce damage to infested any more)

 

but from the calculation from the screenshots, the damage was reduced to around 25% of the original, however, armor scales over enemie's levels, so I can guess that the damage was reduced more than it should because of mobs level.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Lunarez

[Redmage107]

 

Thank you for testing. Well, I think I can explain why the damage was reduced that much by looking at the stat in the Codex. Corrupted Heavy gunner have 500 armor which if you use the armor solution, you should deal around 40% of damage to a level-1 corrupted heavy while doing full damage to corrupt ancient of the same level (since new puncture damage doesn't deal reduce damage to infested any more)

 

but from the calculation from the screenshots, the damage was reduced to around 25% of the original, however, armor scales over enemie's levels, so I can guess that the damage was reduced more than it should because of mobs level.

 

Thank you very much! I'm absolutely garbage with the new damage numbers so having perspective helps. Yes that's about right but the issue is that's 25% output after corrosive damage is applied, so the actual reduction is much much higher overall...also the body shot comparison's screenshots got messed up, I've editted with the appropriate grineer body shot

Edited December 16, 2013 by Redmage107