Archistopheles Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 But they need to start failing ~Faster~ Please watch before knee-jerking or adding to the discussion "Your ego can't need protecting... The only thing that matters is the game you ship, not any of the steps along the way." Warframe and it's community is getting a little too rigid. Some of us are starting to get set in our ways to the point where our "things" becomes Preciousss. By doing that, and getting angry when our precious gets changed, we as a community are stifling the growth of this product. However, it's not all our fault, the blame falls on DE as well. From about U10-12, we've seen some big additions - but what has really changed? Melee, stealth, parkour, RNG drops, and even the Damage/Armor system has been babied every step of the way. Why? Why not rip it up and give us something raw to chew on for awhile? Well... I remember when Hek, Gorgon, and Rhino were nerfed. I remember when stamina was changed. I remember the recent Brakk, Detron, and now Frost fiasco. I feel like the feedback is still haunting certain developers to the point where their Ego simply cannot take anymore, so they feel like they can't change anything without getting painful negativity from us. That can't, and should not stop them from tearing this game apart and pulling out the guts in front of us. Do you know why the "this is beta" argument is getting old? Because the game feels too finished. It puts us into a false sense of security that, when shattered, reverberates back ten fold on DE, which causes the afore mentioned problems. Communicate with your testers so that you can release more ~raw~ systems. The design council signed on to be your personal guinea pigs. Why aren't you using us? Communication has been an issue from the first day I joined the forums, and to be perfectly honest: It hasn't got much better. Grineeer's workshop is full of cobwebs again because devs are scared of upsetting the community, and the community is angry at the devs for being silent. No... Anger is too strong of a word... I would describe the community right now as impatiently frustrated. We want stuff fast. We don't need it perfect. Like the video touched on. Give us raw, ugly mechanics that we can actually give feedback on instead of pushing it back because the thing isn't perfect. You can't win a hockey game by playing a prevent defense. You have to get out there and bust some teeth while telling the guy why he deserved to get his teeth smashed. Tl;dr and Closing Remark You are Digital Extremes. You need to start acting like it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dtexas Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I agree entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiniko Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 All of my agree is here. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NlGHTSHAD3 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I like the game, i really don't mind if it stays in the beta forever. Coming from games that crashed and burned (Ghost Recon Online and War Inc.) I think that the Devs are doing a great job at keeping in touch with the players. But really though we get at least 1 livestream a WEEK and 2 every other week. These Devs are very outgoing, This is by far the best game i have ever played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythblaze Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illuminatus51 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 This too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meIody- Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Agreed. So what happened to Gorgon and Hek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnProdman Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Agreed. So what happened to Gorgon and Hek? Rank and sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archistopheles Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Agreed. So what happened to Gorgon and Hek? They both had accuracy nerfs, but that was way back before the void was even in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bejuizb Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) Well said, but I feel like the damage is too much already. The community has become too narrow-minded and rigid as you said, and I fear that it might be a bit too much to fix. Our community has become a bunch of over-exuberant short-tempered people who resort to bullying and pressuring the devs into doing their job. I mean no offense, but this is what I have observed over the past 8 months on the forums. People let their anger simmer instead of letting it stew into well-thought out feedback. And when such people do speak up, their ideas and feedback are truly priceless.Their anger might not be misplaced, but it shouldn't be a blunt force. If you're trying to drill a hole, a sledgehammer the size of a mountain will not do. We need to be precise and well-informed of our complaints and decisions so as to give better feedback to the developers and help them "tear this game apart" in a good way. This is simply what I feel. If you disagree, let me know in a well-informed and thoughtful manner. Edited February 14, 2014 by bejuizb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katakuna Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 *Notices thread title in Recent Topics list* "Oh, whoopdie-do, another rant thread. Don't care." *Notices thread was created by 10k Posts Man* "Alright, what the hell, why not." Wasn't disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaftMeat Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 The Frost changes are a perfect example of why DE is not afraid to "rip up" the game. The fact that the Infested are now invasion/derelict only is another. Melee 2.0 is also changing the game significantly, peceeded by the new changes to the Steel Charge aura, which now offers more mod points than any other aura at max rank (including the predominantly popular Energy Siphon). The encouragement is welcome, I'm sure. But DE doesn't *need* it, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skynin Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) Yes? Yes.I am your tester and i'm ready for everything.Actually, mistakes is not a fail, if you are learning from them Edited February 14, 2014 by Skynin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kubbi Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I liked the presentation. Very informative and full of truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Yeah it needs more of a beta feel. It doesn't. People throw the beta word around as some sort of justification when things go wrong but we aren't in much of a beta right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archistopheles Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Well said, but I feel like the damage is too much already. ~Snip~ I had to still try. Wasn't disappointed. Knowing you through your posts, that's high praise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babellon Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Well said. When i first downloaded this game, about 3 weeks ago now, I remember clicking agree on certain things, one of them being that this is a beta and anything can change at any time. I've noticed a few posts here in forums and in chat on game that would imply people have forgotten that they agreed to that as well. I've often played on test servers throughout the various MMO's i've played over the years, I expected this to be much like that, with ongoing feedback and communication with developers, new content, raw as it may be, being processed, changed, updated, scrapped even in some cases. Im actually a little surprised they don't have a more direct and dynamic system in place for in game reporting of bugs, suggestions, and such. btw-frost apparently needed changing, or they wouldn't have done it, melee, movement, powersets, color schemes, map layouts...all of it, we all agreed to the concept of any of these or all of them changing at any point in time. Its time for some people to perhaps remember that, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oriviagene Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Yea I agree :) This is the best complaint I've seen so far... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meIody- Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Rank and sell. TFW I had both expecting a slightly weaker Soma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalu__Ka Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) What I would do if i was the big cheese of DE. Step 1: close down the forums. Step 2: do whatever the hek i want. Edited February 14, 2014 by Tenn00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolidSp33d Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Words. I have none, because you stole them from me. I quite honestly can't sum it up better than this. DE seriously needs to understand this. They really need to go all out and do some extreme iterating, because this is the time to do it. It's beta and they need to treat it more like it. They've been making some big changes but it feels like in recent times they are just sticking their foot it and partially pulling it back out before of the nipping piranhas. Once they let go of the ego things will be much better. They wouldn't have started this project if they didn't have that backbone to begin with, but they need to regain it. It's been worn down a bit along the way. Seriously, DE. Give a LOT more to your design council, give them a beta environment or something, show them a lot more. Get early, early iterations of these new endgame systems you are mentioning as a way to start. Run it hardcore by them. All your ideas, brainstorms, and notes. Hear what they think and try it. DON'T worry about everything looking pretty. Use the crappiest of UI starting of and the crappiest of effects. Get things in place to test. Get things in place to show. We don't need it to look pretty right away. We want to smash it with a hammer and rebuild it until it works. No point in painting the clay if you're going to re-mold it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazools Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) Totally agreed with this! Let's hope that this comes across to the DEVs for what it is and let us hope they take it all in a start tp really listen, change some of their views on how to act and deal with the community and game development itself! It's about freakin' time! Failling faster makes u learn faster, it makes u perfect yourself and better your skills. To fail is to rise stronger and to be better (if u have the ability to learn from your mistakes that is) Edited February 14, 2014 by Bazools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberdown Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 video is awful. so many classic games made it big right out the gate, partially because they didn't waste gamers time trudging through the concept phase and early access phase, burning out players, creating anger when people expect the game to go one way then find out it goes the other way. Fail faster? Yeah if you expect to fail and want to minimize how much money you lose. This video is exactly what is wrong with games these days. Just put out whatever, hope the fans keep giving you money while you actually make a good game, that is most likely outdated by the time its actually in a good state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archistopheles Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) The Frost changes are a perfect example of why DE is not afraid to "rip up" the game. The fact that the Infested are now invasion/derelict only is another. Melee 2.0 is also changing the game significantly, peceeded by the new changes to the Steel Charge aura, which now offers more mod points than any other aura at max rank (including the predominantly popular Energy Siphon). The encouragement is welcome, I'm sure. But DE doesn't *need* it, IMO. I haven't forgotten Scott's quote during the last livestream either: "Nothing is [off limits] when it comes to change" (Sorry again Scott. Im always paraphrasing your quotes) Frost was used as an example of the community becoming too rigid, but also the first reason Scott gave as to why he changed: The "press 3, eat some chips" remark. Its time for some people to perhaps remember that Everyone needs a breath of fresh air once in awhile. video is awful. so many classic games made it big right out the gate, partially because they didn't waste gamers time trudging through the concept phase and early access phase, burning out players, creating anger when people expect the game to go one way then find out it goes the other way. Fail faster? Yeah if you expect to fail and want to minimize how much money you lose. This video is exactly what is wrong with games these days. Just put out whatever, hope the fans keep giving you money while you actually make a good game, that is most likely outdated by the time its actually in a good state. Thank you, Cyberdown, for voicing an opinion other than what has already been said. It is good to look at any source from all angles and perspectives. Edited February 14, 2014 by Archistopheles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ourobor Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I agree, but only to the point where the community is angry and explaining why. It drives me up a wall when people post just anger and no analysis as to why they're angry. Failing is only good when you learn from your mistakes, and it's our job as the community to help them learn. I do want to see more tests and less finished content. I want to see the old non-sticky parkour again so I can see what it was like.I do trust DE to some level, but it is our job to determine whether or not it's usable or not. We play the game for hours and hours, let us see if it's too tight for us to run freely or not. I also want to see DE try something see it fail and just rip it out. I don't care at all, unless it was good and it was too early to really judge. I don't feel like a beta tester. I feel like I'm playing a half finished game. I want to help really bad. That's why I joined to forums, even though they frustrate me to no end. If I could get into the design council, I'd pay large amounts of money for it. I feel like a complete idiot for missing that. So seriously DE, give me some stuff to test Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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