Sniping

[ThePresident777]

Warframe sniping isn't really sniping.  To make it more sniping, I propose the following.

 

The difference between sniping and not sniping is really a matter of distance.  Snipers perform the same functions as smaller ranged units, simply at longer range.  Snipers have longer ranged detection and destruction capability than other units, and stealth.

 

Real sniping is typically done by a two person team, a sniper and a spotter.  The spotter has a high powered monocular/range finder.  I propose a sentinel, or sentinel mods, to perform this task, as well as any other appropriate detection or facilitation.

 

Sniping requires sniping missions.  One of the functions of a sniper is to provide over watch.  The sniper team will take up a vantage point where they can survey incoming threats and remove them before the regular infantry suffers casualties.  Opposing snipers are some of the threats over watch will neutralize.  But, it includes any unseen threat that a sniper rifle can neutralize: rocketeers, flankers, etc.  In a space fantasy setting, this can be expanded to something comparable to artillery or tanks, or larger, with a stealth element even.  The means of neutralization can be varied.  It could be non destructive such as making a hidden enemy appear on the mini map.

 

Note that the infantry being watched over by the sniper provide a screen for the sniper.  Short range enemy have to get through the screen to get to the overwatch.   So, overwatch and screen are relative to the range capabilities of the threat and each other, and can be nested.  The over watch can be watched over by a longer range unit.  Over watch can screen for longer range over watch.

 

An over watch role could be added to a lot of the current set of warframe mission and fullfilled by 1 to 4 tenno.  A tenno team could be split into over watch and screen.

 

There can be missions with fixed roles.  But, I imagine this will require more complicated match making.  Another possibility is to let the players decide independently in mission what role they want to play at any moment.  This would give an added purpose to large open area maps.  Simply amend the maps so the players have proper over watch positions they can assume at will.  Have the AI respond accordingly.  Give the enemy over watch and screening capability also.  This could help make enemy factions more distinct.  There may be a reasons why Grineer are so heavily armored.

 

The players could be allowed to choose their role in missions by taking up the appropriate positions.  Or, they could signal their intent via their load outs.  If a player carries a sniper rifle, then he intends to snipe.  The enemy then reacts accordingly, in a meaningful way.  This might be a problem because auto matching does not always allow players to coordinate prior to the mission start.  So if players have strong preferences, they may quit the match if they can't resolve their difference in match before the match actually begins.  But, that's a matter of details.  It does not have to be terrible.  Rather than the response being a punishment for the entire team, it can be an opportunity for the player to play sniper.

 

This could also save shotguns from being the other sniper rifle that just happens to suck because REASONS.

Edited December 29, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Althran]

Seems cool and all, but the fact is

DE seems to just want boltor spam

Since higher rate of fire weapons affect bubble shields better than damage does, and the fact that you can't crit shields anymore (bubble shields from eximus, nullifiers) you can kinda kiss your sniper rifle good-bye when trying to deal with them.

[Rakshal]

While I would love this, DE would never do it because DE hates slow fire weapons with a passion.

[ThePresident777]

It goes without saying, that sniper rifles should have the range advantage over other guns as well as other appropriate advantages and challenges to make them a distinct form of game play that players can choose for the fun of it.  If the Tenno suddenly display over watch advantage, the enemy should respond with an appropriate counter, and perhaps visa versa.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nullifier bubbles are changed to be destroyed by damage now, not rate of fire.

 

And, DE will do this if the players stop their pessimism and ask for it without rioting and fighting each other for the toy box.  A new year is coming and DE will want to continue to evolve the game.  They need to create winning content.  Let them know what is winning.

Edited December 22, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Althran]

It goes without saying, that sniper rifles should have the range advantage over other guns as well other appropriate advantages and challenges to make them a distinct form of game play that players can choose for the fun of it.  If the Tenno suddenly display over watch advantage, the enemy should respond with an apropriate counter, and perhaps visa versa.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nullifier bubbles are changed to be destroyed by damage now, not rate of fire.

 

It's still bugged.  I tested it.  Went into T4 void just a second ago, brought mk1 braton, shields gone in 3 seconds

[Wurdyburd]

I appreciate and enjoy the suggestions made here, I too want sniping to be a legitimate activity, so +1 for you.

However, in order to do that, we basically have to fix how range works. Thankfully, this thread has given me an idea, one that I'll post momentarily. I'll post a link to it when it's up.

[HAYABU5A]

if you think about, tenno are so many times faster and more agile than a normal human being that it makes the current warfare role of snipers like in other games redundant, even on a huge map a tenno could just easily close the distance and kill something with a dagger 

 

but missions designed with sniping roles could be good fun, like overwatch on the squad

i do like the idea of matchmaking with predesignated roles, could make PUGs more effective

the focus system thats coming will also reinforce roles somewhat too so there is potential there 

 

snipers need innate enemy protection bypass (nullifier bubbles, eximus shields etc) ! then we can use them to specifically take down priority targets

[taiiat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nullifier bubbles are changed to be destroyed by damage now, not rate of fire.

Corrupted Nullifiers were still using volume of hits, while Corpus is working 'correctly' as a Health pool.

 

Corrupted Nullifiers are supposed to be fixed, but i won't discount the possibility it either didn't get in somehow or it's just not fixed.

[Hatzeputt]

For sniping to work we would need some better scopes first! Vectis scope, blurry, large aiming dot, white colour making it difficult to use on bright tiles and ones with fog. Vulkar, better colorization still blurry, still too larger aiming dot. Lanka ....I forgot never liked that one much but I think it was similar to Vectis.

 

Higher base crit damage multiplier. It is somewhat stupid that thanks to the "red crits" mechanics several weapon rank way higher in the damage department than sniper rifles. Red crits should remain the domain of bows and Amprex, Synapse however but snipers should get a buff (again). Sniper rifles should get a higher base crit damage multiplier since they do not have 100% crit chance anyways and their base damage, even modified is not that stellar either and hampered by either single shot reloading or slow ROF. Right now the only all around effective sniper weapons are the Opticor which is a big arse laZor cannon and no real sniper rifle anyways and the Vectis imo. Compared to bows and the aforementioned Opticor, Vulkar falls very short and Lanka is not that much better either. Vectis can be modded to be decent but needs special mods to do so and will still be outperformed by Dread or Paris P. A crit multiplier buff from 2.0 -> 3.0 for Vulkar and 2.0 -> 2.5 for Lanka and Vectis would make all of them much more viable.    

 

As for the ongoing nullifier discussion, use an appropriate sidearm for crying out loud. You know they are going to be around and just as you pack team restores take a suitable sidearm or melee to take them out as well.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Hatzeputt

[ThePresident777]

One of the important ideas and keys, in the OP, to making a better situation, that isn't getting much attention in the responses is the idea that the enemy reacts appropriately.  The enemy are attacked by Tenno.  That does not mean that the enemy suddenly know what they are dealing with.   They have to figure it out as they are getting mauled.  So, when the Tenno display a capability, the enemy respond with a counter, across space and time.  In this way, the battle flows, both sides responding to each other.  It's a bit of a dance. 

 

In the case of sniping, or overwatch, it requires a larger dance floor than a bar room brawl.  That dance floor could be a planet or an archwing tileset.

 

And, yes, better scopes, actual sniper rifles, and other appropriate equipment would be necessary.  This could be the Lanka or Snipetron's salvation.  A lot depends on distance.

 

And, where distance can be closed, Over Watch requires a Screen for protection.  Defense in Depth, ninja katchina dolls, in space.

Edited December 22, 2014 by ThePresident777

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Warframe sniping isn't really sniping.  To make it more sniping, I propose the following.

 

The difference between sniping and not sniping is really a matter of distance.  Snipers perform the same functions as smaller ranged units, simply at longer range.  Snipers have longer ranged detection and destruction capability than other units, and stealth.

 

Real sniping is typically done by a two person team, a sniper and a spotter.  The spotter has a high powered monocular/range finder.  I propose a sentinel, or sentinel mods, to perform this task, as well as any other appropriate detection or facilitation.

 

Sniping requires sniping missions.  One of the functions of a sniper is to provide over watch.  The sniper team will take up a vantage point where they can survey incoming threats and remove them before the regular infantry suffers casualties.  Opposing snipers are some of the threats over watch will neutralize.  But, it includes any unseen threat that a sniper rifle can neutralize: rocketeers, flankers, etc.  In a space fantasy setting, this can be expanded to something comparable to artillery or tanks, or larger, with a stealth element even.  The means of neutralization can be varied.  It could be non destructive such as making a hidden enemy appear on the mini map.

 

Note that the infantry being watched over by the sniper provide a screen for the sniper.  Short range enemy have to get through the screen to get to the overwatch.   So, overwatch and screen are relative to the range capabilities of the threat and each other, and can be nested.  The over watch can be watched over by a longer range unit.  Over watch can screen for longer range over watch.

 

An over watch role could be added to a lot of the current set of warframe mission and fullfilled by 1 to 4 tenno.  A tenno team could be split into over watch and screen.

 

There can be missions with fixed roles.  But, I imagine this will require more complicated match making.  Another possibility is to let the players decide independently in mission what role they want to play at any moment.  This would give an added purpose to large open area maps.  Simply amend the maps so the players have proper over watch positions they can assume at will.  Have the AI respond accordingly.  Give the enemy over watch and screening capability also.  This could help make enemy factions more distinct.  There may be a reasons why Grineer are so heavily armored.

 

The players could be allowed to choose their role in missions by taking up the appropriate positions.  Or, they could signal their intent via their load outs.  If a player carries a sniper rifle, then he intends to snipe.  The enemy then reacts accordingly, in a meaningful way.  This might be a problem because auto matching does not always allow players to coordinate prior to the mission start.  So if players have strong preferences, they may quit the match if they can't resolve their difference in match before the match actually begins.

 

This could also save shotguns from being the other sniper rifle that just happens to suck because REASONS.

I like this thinking.

 

It goes without saying, that sniper rifles should have the range advantage over other guns as well as other appropriate advantages and challenges to make them a distinct form of game play that players can choose for the fun of it.  If the Tenno suddenly display over watch advantage, the enemy should respond with an appropriate counter, and perhaps visa versa.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nullifier bubbles are changed to be destroyed by damage now, not rate of fire.

 

And, DE will do this if the players stop their pessimism and ask for it without rioting and fighting each other for the toy box.  A new year is coming and DE will want to continue to evolve the game.  They need to create winning content.  Let them know what is winning.

Snipers should hit very, very hard to take out those really tough enemies - horse sense. Agreed.

One of the important ideas and keys, in the OP, to making a better situation, that isn't getting much attention in the responses is the idea that the enemy reacts appropriately.  The enemy are attacked by Tenno.  That does not mean that the enemy suddenly know what they are dealing with.   They have to figure it out as they are getting mauled.  So, when the Tenno display a capability, the enemy respond with a counter, across space and time.  In this way, the battle flows, both sides responding to each other.  It's a bit of a dance. 

 

In the case of sniping, or overwatch, it requires a larger dance floor than a bar room brawl.  That dance floor could be a planet or an archwing tileset.

 

And, yes, better scopes, actual sniper rifles, and other appropriate equipment would be necessary.  This could be the Lanka or Snipetron's salvation.  A lot depends on distance.

 

And, where distance can be closed, Over Watch requires a Screen for protection.  Defense in Depth, ninja katchina dolls, in space.

Good stuff, man.

Edited December 22, 2014 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[NocturneOfSolace]

This idea is excellent, and would make things more interesting to play

I will bump this thread as much as needed

Edited December 24, 2014 by NocturneOfSolace

[Phatose]

Most of the time I've encountered similar concepts - typically sniper heavy maps in otherwise not sniper centric games - it's turned out very "Meh."  The guy with the sniper rifle camps and shoots, presumably enjoying it.  Much less interesting for anybody else though.  So, you usually just ended up with a sniper camping fest.

 

So, anything to sell me on the idea that this wouldn't be a one man sniper campathon, with three bored guys doing basically nothing but ensuring the sniper never has to so much as look up from his scope?

[Ignimortis]

I was very much dismayed by how sniper rifles perform in comparison to bows. An unpotato'd r30 Dread is superior to potato'd+3 Forma'd Vectis in almost every situation with the same crit-build (Serration+Vital Sense+Point Strike), and if I potato'd it, it would be just insane with 1k normal damage per shot (which is already 5.6k on every shot due to 125% critchance) and explosive arrows with 25% chance to redcrit for I dunno, 20k? Without taking much effort to aim? 
TL;DR - sniper rifles (at least Vectis) need buffs. 

[traybong111]

I was very much dismayed by how sniper rifles perform in comparison to bows. An unpotato'd r30 Dread is superior to potato'd+3 Forma'd Vectis in almost every situation with the same crit-build (Serration+Vital Sense+Point Strike), and if I potato'd it, it would be just insane with 1k normal damage per shot (which is already 5.6k on every shot due to 125% critchance) and explosive arrows with 25% chance to redcrit for I dunno, 20k? Without taking much effort to aim? 

TL;DR - sniper rifles (at least Vectis) need buffs. 

 

Vectis? Not really.

Grinlok and Vulkar? Yes. They're so neglected it almost hurts me to just look at them :(

[Ignimortis]

Vectis? Not really.

Grinlok and Vulkar? Yes. They're so neglected it almost hurts me to just look at them :(

Haven't used those, so I can't really judge. Grinlok isn't a sniper rifle, though, it's a high-damage, low-ammo Grineer Latron.

But all of the sniper-type weapons seem to be underpowered at least by the fact that they deal similar damage per shot to bows, but have to be either painfully slowly reloaded or charged, don't have innate Punch Through (apart from Lanka, which needs to be charged in addition to having to be reloaded and having projectile travel time, being basically a Corpus bow with a magazine) and have significantly lesser critchance, plus bows have access to Thunderbolt, which increases their already superior AoE damage.

[ThePresident777]

Bows and sniper rifles are not the same thing at all.  This is why sniper rifles in Warframe are not actually sniper rifles.  They are being confused with everything else. 

 

Sniper Rifles and Shotguns are both boom sticks, i.e., high damage rounds with low rate of fire.  But, sniper rifles have superior range to all other guns, by definition.  So, in order to squeeze sniper rifles into shotgun range, instead of making sniper rifles behave as they really should, DE nerfed shotguns by giving them damage fall of.  Now, neither shotguns or sniper rifles feel fun.  Sniper Rifles were nerfed from the start to make them fit a sardine can.  When that didn't work, DE nerfed shotguns to give the sardine can the illusion of being a football field.  That didn't work either.  Nerfs do not work.  Nerfs are not game design.

 

Confusion between different weapons and other content gives the impression that some people, perhaps subconsciously, see the game as a box of toys.  I think Warframe would be much better if it were designed as a Box of Play Styles, instead of just a box of toys for us to fight over incessantly.

Edited December 24, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Heidrek]

Bows and sniper rifles are not the same thing at all.  This is why sniper rifles in Warframe are not actually sniper rifles.  They are being confused with everything else. 

 

Sniper Rifles and Shotguns are both boom sticks, i.e., high damage rounds with low rate of fire.  But, sniper rifles have superior range to all other guns, by definition.  So, in order to squeeze sniper rifles into shotgun range, instead of making sniper rifles behave as they really should, DE nerfed shotguns by giving them damage fall of.  Now, neither shotguns or sniper rifles feel fun.  Sniper Rifles were nerfed from the start to make them fit a sardine can.  When that didn't work, DE nerfed shotguns to give the sardine can the illusion of being a football field.  That didn't work either.  Nerfs do not work.  Nerfs are not game design.

 

Confusion between different weapons and other content gives the impression that some people, perhaps subconsciously, see the game as a box of toys.  I think Warframe would be much better if it were designed as a Box of Play Styles, instead of just a box of toys for us to fight over incessantly.

DE should start by totally remaking the weapons. Look at Ember she was the nerf*@##$ and they never once buffed her properly, but they totally remade her abilities.

 

Another thing, There is too much content the Devs HAVEN'T updated. Warframe never use to have so many enemies in a room, instead there were High level mobs at a decent spawn rate. Also they had radically changed the leveling system. So the whole system and play style are so dramatically different from the "original" weapons (pretty much snipers and shotguns) have been left in the dust. 

Edited December 27, 2014 by Heidrek

[jjpdn]

How to fix.

 

MUCH BIGGER MAPS. STUPID SMALL TINY ROOMS.

Edited January 6, 2015 by jjpdn

[Bibliothekar]

While I really like your suggestions, I have to agree that the overwhelming majority of the maps doesn't support sniping. And if they do, the scopes are far too weak even with zoom mod - or, in the case of Archwing, you'll have no scope at all and only iron sights.

Raids might give snipers a place in this game. We'll have to wait and see, but I must admit that I'm not really optimistic about it.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Bibliothekar

[ThePresident777]

I agree, the maps are important to the success of this.  It has to be a complete package in order for it to work.  There needs to be the right mission, enemy, maps, weapons, warframe, etc. for anything to have purpose and succeed.