Re-Buff The Snipers (Same Dps, No Crits)

[DrBorris]

I would like to thank DE for finally giving snipers a buff. But I think they did it the wrong way.

 

Snipers are supposed to be consistent, they should be extremely predictable when used. All DE did was make them more dependent on crits by buffing it. And they did not give them access to a guaranteed crit, so you have a very unpredictable weapon. This… is not a sniper, and worse, they are just as not-as-good bows. I do not support giving snipers access to 100% critical chance, that is what bows are for. I support the opposite, I wish to give a massive nerf to their critical chance.

 

I envision snipers being pure physical damage (except Lanka with elemental damage), give them a massive buff to their physical damage so you can easily predict the outcome of a shot. I cannot explain exactly why it makes more sense for bows to be critical and snipers to be physical, it just seems better. I am not giving much of a “buff” to the weapons, just changing their stats away from critical based.

 

Now for my proposed buffs/nerfs.

(I am going to exclude Snipetron (vandal), you will be able to tell where I am going from Lanka, Vulkar, and Vectis.)

 

Here are Vectis current and proposed new stats.

Impact: 90 to 285

Puncture: 78.8 to 255

Slash: 56.3 to 105

Critical Chance: 25% to 10%

Critical Multiplier: 2.0x to 2.0x

Explanation: I basically used a 3.2x multiplier to the original stats (I did some weird calculations to get that number). The DPS of the new stats is a bit higher than the current state (not accounting for critical in new stats because you should not depend on critical when using a sniper). Go ahead and do the math, but if you do so, account for the room it takes for critical mods and the effect of them on the old stats. I am going with a 10% crit so a crit can happen, but it is more luck than anything (and it will be glorious when it does)

Lanka

Electricity: 300 to 735

Critical Chance: 25% to 10%

Critical Multiplier: 2.0x to 2.0x

Explanation: A 2.4x multiplier made sense for Lanka (do not ask me why it is less compared to Vectis, it just is). Same as Vectis, there is a very (even smaller) buff to damage not counting crits. If you want to do the math, take into account the same things I said for Vectis. Same reasons for crit as with Vectis.

Vulkar

Impact: 160 to 320

Puncture: 30 to 60

Slash: 10 to 20

Critical Chance: 20% to 15%

Critical Multiplier: 2.0x to 2.0x

Explanation: The multiplier here is 2x, again, not exactly sure why they differ. Yes, I know, a 15% critical chance is worth a crit build normally. I see Vulkar as a slightly different play style though. A 15% critical chance does not make a crit build a necessity, you can go either way (consistency or slightly higher DPS). I cannot explain exactly why it makes sense, but I almost see Vulkar as a sniper-ish Latron. I think that this may be more significant of a buff, because of the higher critical chance it might make sense to bring the multiplier I used for damage to 1.9 or 1.8.

 

So, that is my two cents. I have trouble imagining DE making this kind of change (it seems the only way they know how to buff is to buff crit recently), but I can hope. Feedback would be appreciated, and if my math is completely off… sorry.

 

Edit: From reading the feedback, doing the following makes sense. (Credit to LittleHalfkin, Arunafeltz, and ZzVinniezZ)

 

For ever weak-point you get a crit, if you don't hit a weak-point there is a very low chance for a crit. That could be really cool. I am still going to stick with snipers having a low base crit chance however, for the most part have it only crit when you hit a weak point (and have that be 100% chance).

 

A head-shot would gain the crit multiplier, requiring the use of Vital Sense, but Point Strike would not be needed. 

 

So, if you score a head-shot you get a crit, then the normal critical chance is for a red crit (double the crit damage). This sounds like how Snipers should be.

Edited September 23, 2014 by DrBorris

[noveltyhero]

Yeaaah but crits are more satisfying and we play this game for satisfaction, from blowing up 1k Grineer to chopping them using giant swords ;)

[LittleHalfkin]

Why not just do sniper crits like TF2 where Headshots are guaranteed crits. Instead of the normal headshot multiplier

[Krustable]

I like the general idea of sinpers deing low crit high damage, but i am uncertain of your numbers.

[HollowExistence]

This is a fantastic idea.

Non-crit precision weapons with high damage.

[X3Evanescence]

Crits are an important factor in dealing high damage late-game.

Raw damage weapons fall off the fastest, it might make snipers even worse in that regard.

Snipers should have a seperate niche from Bows. Some of the biggest problems with Snipers is getting swarmed by enemies and having to shoot them one by one is an extremely tedious task.

Look at the Lanka. It has incredible raw damage, and when Electricity procs, it has great crowd control potential.

Snipers should have their Status Chance buffed to be able to hit 100%, or have an innate X proc that deals some form of crowd control, which will be their niche.

After that, a slight increase to critical chance to have it really close to 100%, and I feel it would be extremely good.

Especially once Primed Chamber is re-released.

However in that regard I find your idea not bad too. What about high raw damage + high status chance?

Edited September 22, 2014 by X3Evanescence

[DrBorris]

Crits are an important factor in dealing high damage late-game.

Raw damage weapons fall off the fastest, it might make snipers even worse in that regard.

 

 

Actually... all crit does is MULTIPLY your base damage. What I basically did was put that multiplier directly into the base damage. The DPS of these weapons (if my math is right) is almost exactly the same as with crits (i accounted for crit mods), just no yellow.

[X3Evanescence]

Actually... all crit does is MULTIPLY your base damage. What I basically did was put that multiplier directly into the base damage. The DPS of these weapons (if my math is right) is almost exactly the same as with crits (i accounted for crit mods), just no yellow.

Raw damage hitting a vital spot and a critical hit hitting the same vital spot will have a big difference in damage.

One is a 2x multiplier, the other is a 4x multiplier.

Seeing as how elemental damage scales with crits, and mods like Vital Sense further increasing the multiplier, the difference can be quite significant.

The point of using snipers is to reward precision with good one-shotting potential.

This is why raw damage falls off faster than critically damage.

But hey I'm not shooting down your suggestion, I support it.

Edited September 22, 2014 by X3Evanescence

[DrBorris]

Raw damage hitting a vital spot and a critical hit hitting the same vital spot will have a big difference in damage.

One is a 2x multiplier, the other is a 4x multiplier.

Seeing as how elemental damage scales with crits, and mods like Vital Sense further increasing the multiplier, the difference can be quite significant.

The point of using snipers is to reward precision with good one-shotting potential.

This is why raw damage falls off faster than critically damage.

But hey I'm not shooting down your suggestion, I support it.

 

Ahhhhh... well, it has been proposed many times that Snipers should get an additional 2x for head-shots. If a change like this was made, that should probably happen also. (Imagine the rare head-shot crits)

[Grulos]

Crits are an important factor in dealing high damage late-game.

Raw damage weapons fall off the fastest, it might make snipers even worse in that regard.

Snipers should have a seperate niche from Bows. Some of the biggest problems with Snipers is getting swarmed by enemies and having to shoot them one by one is an extremely tedious task.

Look at the Lanka. It has incredible raw damage, and when Electricity procs, it has great crowd control potential.

Snipers should have their Status Chance buffed to be able to hit 100%, or have an innate X proc that deals some form of crowd control, which will be their niche.

After that, a slight increase to critical chance to have it really close to 100%, and I feel it would be extremely good.

Especially once Primed Chamber is re-released.

However in that regard I find your idea not bad too. What about high raw damage + high status chance?

Make them 100% crit weapons like bows, with a small chance for red crits.

 

 

Problem solved.

[DrBorris]

Make them 100% crit weapons like bows, with a small chance for red crits.

 

 

Problem solved.

 

No... no more crit weapons. I "greatly dislike" it when DE uses buffing crit as a buff for a weapon. This is mostly due to Crit builds being terribly boring. At least two more mandatory mods for a crit build (so 4 slots automatically taken), then add the one quality of life mod every weapon needs, and you are left with little to no options for the rest. The awesome Mod system DE created is pointless because there is no creativity in Crit builds. Also, that is way to similar to Bows, a little weapon diversity would be OK.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

Remember when the Miter had 800 base damage due to a bug, and was almost as good as the Dread? Yeah, that was awesome.

[Azawarau]

Technically thisd just be a straight buff thanks to the reliability factor and damage mods being used instead of crit

 

Im all for it though

 

For the vectis at least

[Rekkou]

It's an extreme unbalanced damage if generic rifle only deal 20-30 damage, but snipers deal 600-700 damage. Additional damage should come from additional mechanic, while keeping the base damage reasonable. If rifle achieve its dps thanks to fire rate then snipers can do the same through body multiplier, guaranteed crit on headshot, or even critical chance like DE did. Simply buffing raw damage is just lazy.

[Arunafeltz]

Why not just do sniper crits like TF2 where Headshots are guaranteed crits. Instead of the normal headshot multiplier

YES. And existing critical modifier applying after the guaranteed crit for a chance to red crit!

 

BBBBBBBBBUT THEN SNIPERS CAN SCORE RED CRITS LIKE BOWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- Bows don't have to be aimed for a specific spot for a red crit, and there's no reason for red crits to stay exclusive to the top bows and ray guns anyway.

[ZzVinniezZ]

why not....reduce sniper crit down and 100% guarantee crit if u hit enemy weak spot instead of shooting at enemy body parts and hope that u get a crit damage. i know this game is all about Fast pace but some of us prefer taking it slow.

 

bow has 100%~125% crit chance when fully charge then why us sniper has to rely on luck to get crit instead?

 

Why not just do sniper crits like TF2 where Headshots are guaranteed crits. Instead of the normal headshot multiplier

 

god damn i got ninja'd 

Edited September 23, 2014 by ZzVinniezZ

[DrBorris]

It's an extreme unbalanced damage if generic rifle only deal 20-30 damage, but snipers deal 600-700 damage. Additional damage should come from additional mechanic, while keeping the base damage reasonable. If rifle achieve its dps thanks to fire rate then snipers can do the same through body multiplier, guaranteed crit on headshot, or even critical chance like DE did. Simply buffing raw damage is just lazy.

 

Um... But a generic rifle is a generic rifle, shouldn't a sniper rifle do considerably more damage? Simply buffing crit chance is lazy, and that has been DE's version of buffs lately. 

 

 

Why not just do sniper crits like TF2 where Headshots are guaranteed crits. Instead of the normal headshot multiplier

 

Maybe, for ever weak-point you get a crit, if you don't hit a weak-point there is a very low chance for a crit. That could be really cool. I am still going to stick with snipers having a low base crit chance however, for the most part have it only crit when you hit a weak point (and have that be 100% chance).

 

A head-shot would gain the crit multiplier, requiring the use of Vital Sense, but Point Strike would not be needed. 

 

So, if you score a head-shot you get a crit, then the normal critical chance is for a red crit (double the crit damage). This sounds like how Snipers should be.

 

Thank you Arunafeltz and ZzVinniezZ, I shall add this to the OP.

[TaylorsContraction]

NOOOOOOOOOOO

 

Leave my sniper rifles alone god dammit!

 

I hate bows with a passion they have no place in a space shooter but whatever. People like bows by all means I just won't use them. BUT LEAVE MY SNIPER RIFLES ALONE PLEASEEEEE. I want crits,  I get crits, I want damage I mod for damage. Right now I'm loving my vectis. Take your bow and enjoy it, and let me enjoy my sniping rifle.!!!!

 

I find other people's suggestions much better than the OP's where crit is lowered.

Edited September 23, 2014 by TaylorsContraction

[Rekkou]

Um... But a generic rifle is a generic rifle, shouldn't a sniper rifle do considerably more damage? Simply buffing crit chance is lazy, and that has been DE's version of buffs lately.

 

Again be reasonable, 600-700 is like more than 2000% of average rifle damage. Can you call it balance if unranked weapon effortlessly deal 600-700 damage? With crit you still need a few level up to fit the necessary mods to deal that damage.

 

Just a quick damage mechanic to give you a clue.

Rifle : 20 damage x  20 bullets/s fire rate = 400 dps

DE's sniper : 200 damage x 2 crit multiplier = 400 dps

Your sniper : 400 raw damage

 

See why i called it lazy?

Edited September 23, 2014 by Rekkou

[H.Katsura_999]

I still question why headshots don't crit at a 100% rate.

 

I mean come on, large bullet, traveling at a high velocity, hits you between the eyes, no crit???? WHY????

 

Bows can crit where ever you point them at the enemy but snipers should crit when they hit you on the face.

 

I wish snipers get insta-kill abilities when you land a headshot.

 

That way you can build for speed reload, clip capacity, zoom level,and other utility stuff since you just need a clean headshot to put them down and not rely on pure dmg. (but headshot mechanic should not apply to boses for balancing purposes)

 

Its not easy getting head shots when enemies are moving around so much but the that insta-kill feature on headshots will force you to aim for their heads if you want them dead at the first shot.

Edited September 23, 2014 by H.Katsura_999

[Grulos]

No... no more crit weapons. I "greatly dislike" it when DE uses buffing crit as a buff for a weapon. This is mostly due to Crit builds being terribly boring. At least two more mandatory mods for a crit build (so 4 slots automatically taken), then add the one quality of life mod every weapon needs, and you are left with little to no options for the rest. The awesome Mod system DE created is pointless because there is no creativity in Crit builds. Also, that is way to similar to Bows, a little weapon diversity would be OK.

Me too. But pure base damage weapons (read, all non crit weapons) fall off very quickly.

 

The real problem is the armor/hp scaling of enemies, which skyrockets into ridiculous heights.

 

But changing some values on weapons is easier than putting thoughts into a new armor system.

 

And don't get me started on the mod system... variety is literally non-existant. There are mods you absolutely HAVE to equip, otherwise you can't kill anything.

 

DE, DE, DE....

[DrBorris]

Again be reasonable, 600-700 is like more than 2000% of average rifle damage. Can you call it balance if unranked weapon effortlessly deal 600-700 damage? With crit you still need a few level up to fit the necessary mods to deal that damage.

 

Just a quick damage mechanic to give you a clue.

Rifle : 20 damage x  20 bullets/s fire rate = 400 dps

DE's sniper : 200 damage x 2 crit multiplier = 400 dps

Your sniper : 400 raw damage

 

See why i called it lazy?

 

Thank you for the clue. How does having a weapon not rely on crits make it lazy? Look at all of the top tier weapons, all but one (Boltor Prime) rely on crits for their damage. And, shouldn't a sniper be raw damage? That is the idea behind this thread, it makes sense for a sniper to get raw damage (outside of head-shots). What is the difference between having 200 damage and a 2x multiplier and 400 damage? Bows fall into the 200 damage and 2x crit category already, why not do something DIFFERENT. 

 

 

Me too. But pure base damage weapons (read, all non crit weapons) fall off very quickly.

 

The real problem is the armor/hp scaling of enemies, which skyrockets into ridiculous heights.

 

But changing some values on weapons is easier than putting thoughts into a new armor system.

 

And don't get me started on the mod system... variety is literally non-existant. There are mods you absolutely HAVE to equip, otherwise you can't kill anything.

 

DE, DE, DE....

 

I do agree with your points on armor scaling etc... But I do not agree with your point on crit being necisary for scaling. As i responded to another reply earlier, basically the crit multiplier was applied directly to the base damage (accounting for mods). So, if you take the current Lanka and the proposed Lanka to a T4 survival, they will preform exactly the same. Well, outside of head-shots, as I was recently made aware that crit head-shots have a 4x multiplier. That is why I added the Edit to the OP (guaranteed crit for head-shot).

[Rekkou]

Thank you for the clue. How does having a weapon not rely on crits make it lazy? Look at all of the top tier weapons, all but one (Boltor Prime) rely on crits for their damage. And, shouldn't a sniper be raw damage? That is the idea behind this thread, it makes sense for a sniper to get raw damage (outside of head-shots). What is the difference between having 200 damage and a 2x multiplier and 400 damage? Bows fall into the 200 damage and 2x crit category already, why not do something DIFFERENT.

 

I have repeated the answer twice, you're just asking it again and again.

[BrazilianJoe]

Snipers need some unique mechanics of its own. 

 

I think that they should be the only hitscan weapons in game (and the Lex) so that it becoms on of its advantages.

 

A 'weakspot/killstreak' multiplier would be a nice unique mechanic. Every consecutive hit would add 20% damage. A kill would add +50% damage.

 

 

A sequence of shots: 

 

100% damage (hit)

120% damage (kill)

170% damage (hit)

190% damage (hit)

210% damage (kill)

260% damage (miss)

100% damage

 

Numbers are just ballpark examples.

[MagicGnome]

I've seen this in another post about reworking the snipers, why don't we give snipers a scanner/heat vision and vanilla punch through?

At least give the Vectis something, it's kinda bad for a one bullet sniper