Something That I Feel Is Sorely Needed In This Game.

[Aspari]

This something is a key component to a LOT of different mechanics that are either half-done or nearly absent from Warframe. This something is also a component that level design doesn't at all accomodate for.

 

This something is something a lot of us used to do as children in the playground.

 

This something is hiding,

 

We can't hide in Warframe. Sure, we can evade detection up to a point with most frames but once we're spotted we cannot lose aggro even after we turn off the alarms.

 

We also can't make enemies lose track of our positions with the obstacles that we do have in the game. Doesn't matter where we go - once the enemies have seen us they'll -always- know where we are. We can't hide. It's either kill them or get killed. We can't make them lose track of us.

 

If we had hiding in this game, it'd make stealth a ton more enjoyable, it'd make tactics such as flanking much more possible at closer ranges, and it'd make for better level design so that people who want to do stealth runs and aren't using Loki or Ash can do them and not have to give all of it up because they were spotted one time.

 

I'm not asking for enemies who lose track of us to simply go on about like nothing happened either. I expect them to beextra on-guard and to be actively hunting us if we've gone into hiding. I want them to hunt.

 

It feels incredibly dumb that no matter what we do right now we can't cause enemies to lose sight of us even if we've been holding out in a place they can't reach and shouldn't have been able to see us enter or know when we've left that spot.

[R34LM]

Much yes here. I am sick of enemies aimboting players a split second after they leave cover behind th e enemy.

[unknow99]

Aaaah another tenno who see the Stealth potential of this game. Welcome to the club!

Edited November 20, 2014 by unknow99

[sushibend]

This is not a stealth game...

 

Would you rather spend 60 minutes groveling around in the shadows trying to hide or plowing though the mission in 5 minutes...

[Jokubas]

This is why I'm worried about them continually talking about encouraging stealth gameplay. I want to see more stealth options, but stealth itself needs to work first before encouraging it will be anything but a nightmare.

[Aspari]

This is not a stealth game...

 

Would you rather spend 60 minutes groveling around in the shadows trying to hide or plowing though the mission in 5 minutes...

I think your question is wrong.

[Tr1ples1xer]

The aimbotting grineer is a bug and a nasty one at that, DE still hasnt fixed this and this game is becoming a cover shooter now.

 

People are requesting cover but it is not the answer

 

PLEASE FIX THE GRINEER AIMBOT DE IT IS RUINING THE GAME COMPLETELY !!

[_Fracture8]

This is not a stealth game...

 

Would you rather spend 60 minutes groveling around in the shadows trying to hide or plowing though the mission in 5 minutes...

 

Don't you find that killing the same enemies over and over again for hours gets boring? If DE wants to advertise "space ninja's" and not have a crucial stealth mechanic in the game, then there is something wrong.

 

Stealth games can also be really fun, just look at the Sly Cooper series, Thief series, Metal Gear, Dishonored etc. Instead of being space Rambo's 24/7 we could use a change of pace

Edited November 21, 2014 by KilelrDrone492

[DSpite]

Once again, I fail to see why you want to mangle existing mechanics simply because YOU have a "thing" for stealth play. We don't have a "stealth game", we have invisibility, which is the stealthiest thing you can possibly do, and there are specific Frames to do it with, so kindly use those.

 

If you want a game that makes you hide behind boxes, go get one, they exist already.

 

If DE wants us to sneak around for an entire map, they can design specific missions and map to go along with it - which I think they are - and NOT shoehorn arbitrary fake mechanics into existing game play. A Loki can already go permanently invisible, we don't need DE to pepper the map with crates just so you can feel like you are playing the Thief series.

[Aspari]

Once again, I fail to see why you want to mangle existing mechanics simply because YOU have a "thing" for stealth play. We don't have a "stealth game", we have invisibility, which is the stealthiest thing you can possibly do, and there are specific Frames to do it with, so kindly use those.

 

If you want a game that makes you hide behind boxes, go get one, they exist already.

 

If DE wants us to sneak around for an entire map, they can design specific missions and map to go along with it - which I think they are - and NOT shoehorn arbitrary fake mechanics into existing game play. A Loki can already go permanently invisible, we don't need DE to pepper the map with crates just so you can feel like you are playing the Thief series.

So adding in realistic AI protocol which makes them unaware of an enemy's position because they lost line-of-sight and general location of the enemy is somehow mangling an existing mechanic?

 

It's not, because that mechanic doesn't even exist.

 

This hiding mechanic is more than just for stealth. General gameplay needs it too because once it's in then guerilla warfare sneak tactics are now viable.

 

If you don't want it or don't like it, just say so. Not like it'll stop others from wanting what you don't want, and it's not like what's wanted is going to hurt or even impact how YOU play the game at all. It only makes sense that's in the game anyway for tactics to begin with.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Aspari

[DSpite]

So adding in realistic AI protocol which makes them unaware of an enemy's position because they lost line-of-sight and general location of the enemy is somehow mangling an existing mechanic?

 

It's not, because that mechanic doesn't even exist.

 

This hiding mechanic is more for than just stealth. General gameplay needs it too because once it's in then guerilla warfare sneak tactics are now viable.

 

If you don't want it or don't like it, just say so. Not like it'll stop others from wanting what you don't want, and it's not like what's wanted is going to hurt or even impact how YOU play the game at all. It only makes sense that's in the game anyway for tactics to begin with.

 

Enemy Radar. There, I can see the entire map. I have it, why not them?

 

I really don't care that you think you should be able to hide "logically", because you are not in a damn forest, you are on a tilest with limited exits. You know it, they know it. That's why they shut the damn doors. 

 

You seem to think because there might be 10 crates, they should be confused about which crate to shoot at, when realistically, they would carpet the entire areas in grenades or missiles. Your "idea" only works in systems crafted around stealth.

 

The AI is stupid enough already, adding peek-a-boo hiding mechanics would just water it down more.

Edited November 21, 2014 by DSpite

[hijinks_the_turtle]

Once again, I fail to see why you want to mangle existing mechanics simply because YOU have a "thing" for stealth play. We don't have a "stealth game", we have invisibility, which is the stealthiest thing you can possibly do, and there are specific Frames to do it with, so kindly use those.

 

If you want a game that makes you hide behind boxes, go get one, they exist already.

 

If DE wants us to sneak around for an entire map, they can design specific missions and map to go along with it - which I think they are - and NOT shoehorn arbitrary fake mechanics into existing game play. A Loki can already go permanently invisible, we don't need DE to pepper the map with crates just so you can feel like you are playing the Thief series.

 

The fact that there are mechanics already in place like noise detection, stealth finishers, and small places meant for hiding all around the maps, I'd say DE planned to place those mechanics in originally.  What's wrong with expanding on that?  It's not like it's going to affect your playstyle anyway.  Let others have fun as well, we need options.  Sure, going rambo is fun and all, but some of us like to play in other ways.

Edited November 21, 2014 by hijinks_the_turtle

[Aspari]

Enemy Radar. There, I can see the entire map. I have it, why not them?

 

I really don't care that you think you should be able to hide "logically", because you are not in a damn forest, you are on a tilest with limited exits. You know it, they know it. That's why they shut the damn doors. 

 

You seem to think because there might be 10 crates, they should be confused about which crate to shoot at, when realistically, they would carpet the entire areas in grenades or missiles. Your "idea" only works in systems crafted around stealth.

 

The AI is stupid enough already, adding peek-a-boo hiding mechanics would just water it down more.

Except you're oversimplifying practically every tileset there is except for the older ones that, of course, have no way to support stealth or tricking enemies.

 

This is one of many AI improvements that need to be introduced.

 

Also, they do have Enemy Radar. It's called Scanners. If you hack the security panels, the scanners can no longer detect you. However, enemies will still know exactly where you are once they've seen you once. That's wrong. If I'm gone from the last place they saw me, of course they're going to carpet the area with grenades. Let them do that. I'm long gone. They should be hunting for me. I just created a diversion for my partner to go do what they gotta do.

 

Also, the whole "lockdown" thing is dumb in and of itself. They just locked themselves in with one of the deadliest beings in the galaxy with no way of getting additional support. THAT right there is dumb.

[DSpite]

Except you're oversimplifying practically every tileset there is except for the older ones that, of course, have no way to support stealth or tricking enemies.

 

This is one of many AI improvements that need to be introduced.

 

Also, they do have Enemy Radar. It's called Scanners. If you hack the security panels, the scanners can no longer detect you. However, enemies will still know exactly where you are once they've seen you once. That's wrong. If I'm gone from the last place they saw me, of course they're going to carpet the area with grenades. Let them do that. I'm long gone. They should be hunting for me. I just created a diversion for my partner to go do what they gotta do.

 

Also, the whole "lockdown" thing is dumb in and of itself. They just locked themselves in with one of the deadliest beings in the galaxy with no way of getting additional support. THAT right there is dumb.

 

And this is why I get headaches.

 

It's a game with mechanics that encourage combat, and not "hiding". Even invisibility favors combat because it adds damage multipliers.

 

You would not have to create ANY damn diversions for your partner if you were a Loki and an Ash, because they would not have seen you in the first place, running around at high speed invisibly and killing everything with silent weapons.

 

You are trying to force a mechanic into a system that has no focused need or primary use for it just because YOU like the idea of sneaking around with a Rhino. In a shooter. With powersuits. That can coat entire levels in Anti-Matter.

 

Use Loki/Ash and Shade. Sneak around all you like and stop asking for crates to hide behind.

 

I am all for pure "stealth" NEW maps or NEW game modes. Please stop trying to shoehorn more arbitrary mechanics into what is working already.

Edited November 21, 2014 by DSpite

[vaugahn]

Tenno are like Space Marines.

 

We don't hide. 

[Mcl_Blue]

+1

There's not much to say that you haven't said already.

[Aspari]

And this is why I get headaches.

 

It's a game with mechanics that encourage combat, and not "hiding". Even invisibility favors combat because it adds damage multipliers.

 

You would not have to create ANY damn diversions for your partner if you were a Loki and an Ash, because they would not have seen you in the first place, running around at high speed invisibly and killing everything with silent weapons.

 

You are trying to force a mechanic into a system that has no focused need or primary use for it just because YOU like the idea of sneaking around with a Rhino. In a shooter. With powersuits. That can coat entire levels in Anti-Matter.

 

Use Loki/Ash and Shade. Sneak around all you like and stop asking for crates to hide behind.

 

I am all for pure "stealth" NEW maps or NEW game modes. Please stop trying to shoehorn more arbitrary mechanics into what is working already.

And this is where I say "Lazy. No. Bad."

 

I understand your concern that coding AI to lose track of Tenno may make the game easier, but it's in no way shoehorned. It belongs, just like the other already-implemented stealth mechanics belong (noise, camera evasion, terminal hacking, minimum view distance.) Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, Stealth is here and it's incomplete. Whether you want to accept it or not, this type of mechanic will give players more options to tackle a combat situation.

 

Using the copout "Just use Loki/Ash or Shade" is lazy. Loki's potentially perpetual invisibility is broken and Ash only uses Smoke Screen as an "Oh %@^! I'm surrounded" ability. Plus, Ash is a Tenno Batman so it fits his character. Shade helps, but outside of the occasional stealth field it's not that great of a sentinel.

 

And so what if I wanted to give my enemies the slip if I'm playing Rhino? I should still be able to whether I'm Rhino or someone else just by leaving the area when my enemy still thinks I'm in the area and they didn't see me leave.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Aspari

[fatpig84]

The other thing is why do I need stealth when I can simply CC everyone ?

Stealth and hiding is a mechanic for games where enemies are hyper lethal and 3 to 4 shot you if you are caught.

 

Those are few and far between in most Warframe games.

 

Because you are either incredibly powerful (strong weapons or powerful front line frames like Rhino, Saryn etc) or have frames / companions that circumvent the need for hiding (loki / ash / Huras / Shade) or have powerful CC abilities to trivialize the enemy (Nyx, Loki, Cali etc).

 

I don't need to hide because I can outfight them.

I don't need to hide because I can already walk past them without them knowing.

I don't need to hide because I can disable them easily (for RB i can't do it when I am humping a wall anyway).

 

If you want to implement stealth full on, you have to break a lot of powers in this game. 

No questions about that.

 

The trick is to implement it in such a way that it doesn't detract from the Warframe's power.

So the easiest will be a brand new map with an overarching Stealth goal.

Like detection on any point of the map = near instant failure.

 

 Rescue 2.0 tried to balance this out though but it was not too successful. 
But it allowed run and gun players to play.  Remember that DE has to cater to an entire group of players, not just stealth and run and gun.

[Aspari]

The other thing is why do I need stealth when I can simply CC everyone ?

Stealth and hiding is a mechanic for games where enemies are hyper lethal and 3 to 4 shot you if you are caught.

 

Those are few and far between in most Warframe games.

 

Because you are either incredibly powerful (strong weapons or powerful front line frames like Rhino, Saryn etc) or have frames / companions that circumvent the need for hiding (loki / ash / Huras / Shade) or have powerful CC abilities to trivialize the enemy (Nyx, Loki, Cali etc).

 

I don't need to hide because I can outfight them.

I don't need to hide because I can already walk past them without them knowing.

I don't need to hide because I can disable them easily (for RB i can't do it when I am humping a wall anyway).

 

If you want to implement stealth full on, you have to break a lot of powers in this game. 

No questions about that.

 

The trick is to implement it in such a way that it doesn't detract from the Warframe's power.

So the easiest will be a brand new map with an overarching Stealth goal.

Like detection on any point of the map = near instant failure.

 

 Rescue 2.0 tried to balance this out though but it was not too successful. 

But it allowed run and gun players to play.  Remember that DE has to cater to an entire group of players, not just stealth and run and gun.

They're doing that with Spy 2.0 but that's not really stealth, it's an obstacle course with zero room for failure.

 

DE's already in the works of doing something about the absurd power of a lot of the Warframes as we speak, specifically what you already mentioned that makes stealth and tactics in this game needless for the majority of its content.

[fatpig84]

They're doing that with Spy 2.0 but that's not really stealth, it's an obstacle course with zero room for failure.

 

DE's already in the works of doing something about the absurd power of a lot of the Warframes as we speak, specifically what you already mentioned that makes stealth and tactics in this game needless for the majority of its content.

 

Personally I rather let stealth suffer than more nerfs on frames.

Most of them right now are in an ok spot. Not too op compared as before but still greatly usable.

 

 

DE has to decide whether Warframe is a stealth ninja game (original metal gear) or a Ninja Gaiden / MGR game (lots and lots of action and killing, minimal stealth).

 

But I can tell you one thing, run and gun, "i want to be god like", "I play this like an rpg" players are far more in common than stealth types. That is why we always get complaints of people just rushing in head on and "ruining the stealth", never complaints that too many players are sneaky and refusing to fight head on.

Edited November 21, 2014 by fatpig84

[Aspari]

Personally I rather let stealth suffer than more nerfs on frames.

Most of them right now are in an ok spot. Not too op compared as before but still greatly usable.

 

 

DE has to decide whether Warframe is a stealth ninja game (original metal gear) or a Ninja Gaiden / MGR game (lots and lots of action and killing, minimal stealth).

 

But I can tell you one thing, run and gun, "i want to be god like", "I play this like an rpg" players are far more in common than stealth types. That is why we always get complaints of people just rushing in head on and "ruining the stealth", never complaints that too many players are sneaky and refusing to fight head on.

As for the Warframe nerfs the community at large has been going at them with "We want fun, fully functional, viable Warframes." Warframe has a really weird power dynamic right now and since I've been playing since closed beta I can really see that split in applied concepts.

Kinda sucks that up to now there was no happy medium between bombastic action and sneaky-sneaky "space ninja" gameplay.

 

As referred to in the OP I also mentioned that improved level design was also going to help out both styles of gameplay, so that was also supposed to be incorporated at the same time as the hiding and trickery mechanics. Even for the most common form of gameplay which is all-out war of epic proportions the level design could be a lot better and for those who are playing frames that can't be godlike or always invisible they still need a way for wit to be just as viable as the other two.

[unknow99]

This is not a stealth game...

 

Would you rather spend 60 minutes groveling around in the shadows trying to hide or plowing though the mission in 5 minutes...

We never asked it to be an entire stealth game, we're asking for a better optional stealth.

 

Option. You could still Rambo if you want!

[Somedude1000]

May I join in and say that shade should keep you cloaked if you manage to pull off a stealth kill?
 

Also, we could have an awareness bar (like in prototype maybe) for enemies to gauge how aware they are of us, if the bar is  full we're compromised and must escape! 

 

 

The bar in question ; 

[Llyssa]

I'm not so sure about the premise of this?

 

I mean, the idea is nice, but I've been very much able to get enemies to forget about me via stealth play. The concept that it doesn't work seems quite strange to me, and a tad confusing as to what, exactly, has been happening to me then.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

(quote)

This is all the way. Running and gunning is fine in its place, but we are supposed to be space ninjas, not space G. I. Joe's, so the option should be there to do so. Letting people choose whether to stealth or Rambo is definitely a good idea.