Nerf All The Syndicate Weapons Or Buff The Secura Dual Cestra (I Hope For The Latter)

[Ironlixivium]

PLEASE READ THE POST

Glad I could get your attention without the use of click bait. It really shows initiative throughout the community.

 

The secura dual cestra are in desperate need of a buff

 

• the recoil is terrible

• the dps is average

• it needs to spool up to even get to its already mid tier dps (my point is it doesn't have any trade offs for its many downsides)

• its reload is terrible

• it's overall worse in every way than even our recently nerfed synoid gammacor. 

 

It's been completely neglected and NEEDS a buff. It doesn't even have the correct magazine size.

 

secura dual cestra:

• damage: 30

• rof: 12.5

• crit chance: 5%

• crit multi: 1.5x

• status chance: 7.5%

• magazine: 100

• reload: 3.5s

• trigger: auto, requires spool up

 

Synoid gammacor:

• damage: 28

• rof: 15

• crit chance: 10%

• crit multi: 2.0x

• status chance: 20%

• magazine: 150

• reload: 2.0s

• trigger: auto

 

     As you can see right there, the synoid gammacor is better in every way except damage per shot, but of course, factor in crit chance and you don't even have that.

 

     Something I've heard before, is that the synoid is one of our best dps weapons, and I shouldn't compare it to that. Problem is though, I think everyone can agree syndicate weapons should be balanced? Y'know, since we compare them all the time? SO, are you suggesting we nerf the synoid AGAIN down to secura's level...? I didn't think so.

 

     This is infuriating, how DE completely ignored this weapon. It's easily the worst syndicate weapon out there. It either needs to be buffed, or every other weapon needs to be nerfed down to its level.

 

TL;DR: statistically, secura dual cestra are the worst syndicate weapons and needs to be buffed. 

 

EDIT: My suggestion:

 

• Boost the damage from 30 to 34. (I know, sounds like nothing, but it actually raises the dps to 425 without crits included)

 

• Lower the recoil. Not to synoid levels, but make it manageable. It's part of the weapon, so it shouldn't be removed.

 

• Make it spool up faster. Again, it should still be there, it should be less of an issue though.

 

• Reduce the reload speed to at most 2.5, I would prefer 2 to match the synoid.

 

• Raise the magazine size to 120 and spare ammo to 240. Seriously, the single cestra has a clip of 60, I know DE has a lot on their hands, but this seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

I know someone's gonna have an issue with that dps, so I'll save everyone's time and energy by clarifying:

     Our current synoid has a straight damage dps of 420. I think most people have had that beaten into their skulls by now. BUT, the dps with crits included is actually 462*. With a straight dps of 425, secura dual cestra would actually have a dps of 435.6*. In other words, with these changes, secura dual cestra would STILL have:

 

• worse dps

• recoil

• spool up

• worse status chance

 

But, it would have:

• better ammo efficiency

• more range

 

Making it still a little behind the synoid gammacor, but for the most part an alternative of equal tier. 

 

     As you can see here, (and I hope I've shown well) the secura dual cestra is desperately in need of a buff. I've thought about this for a while and considered the options. If there's anything I left out, tell me, otherwise I would really appreciate your upvote so I can get DE's attention.

 

*Dps with crits

This is how I found the dps with crits: (probably should skip this if you hate math)

(dps + ((crit multi - 1) x (dps x crit multi)))

So for the synoid gammacor it would be:

(420 + ((2.0 - 1) x (420 x 0.1)))

My reasoning behind this equation (as I made it myself) is to find the percent of damage effected by crits (in this case, 10% or 0.1) and multiply it by one less than the crit multiplier to find the additional damage (the "- 1" is what excludes the original damage, so that we aren't accounting for that twice) then just add it to the dps to get the final number.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Ironlixivium

[Ironlixivium]

I accidentally posted this thread twice, AM-Bunny posted this as the first comment on the repeat one :/

 

Can we focus on the real issue? Single Cestra has 60 round mag, but (Secura) Dual Cestra only has 100 round mag, not 120. What's up with that?

 

Oh, and buff Secura Dual Cestra too. I would prefer decreased reload time (it's quite dreadful) and less recoil. Damage is fine, imo.

[RawrWolfie]

I like to think of the secura's spool as an ammo conservation feature, since the split second it requires to max out is usually the amount of time it takes to do in those lesser enemies (lethal torrent equipped).  It is by no means a weak weapon, its my secondary of choice for the raids.  It's 7.5% status x ROF is superior to the synoid's 20%/sec, although the difference between magnetic and puncture must be considered in regards to the enemy faction.  The radiation radial burst is better than the magnetic except maybe against corpus.

Edited May 26, 2015 by RawrWolfie

[MechaTails]

Nah. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/202273-make-your-an-cestras-proud-secura-update/

 

Can you give some specific situations where you're having problems using them? We'd be glad to help you make adjustments so you can enjoy them.

[Eminem2420]

I would like to see the Secura Dual Cestra get a buff. I would like to see an increase in magazine size from 100 to 120, and less recoil and reload time. The damage is okay. The problem with the other syndicate weapons like the Vakyor Marelock and the Rakta Ballistca is that they have high damage, status chance, crit chance with little to no recoil, and they have a good reload time. These weapons have little to no drawbacks unlike the Secura Dual Cestra which has multiple drawbacks including high reload and high recoil.

[Ironlixivium]

I like to think of the secura's spool as an ammo conservation feature, since the split second it requires to max out is usually the amount of time it takes to do in those lesser enemies (lethal torrent equipped).  It is by no means a weak weapon, its my secondary of choice for the raids.  It's 7.5% status x ROF is superior to the synoid's 20%/sec, although the difference between magnetic and puncture must be considered in regards to the enemy faction.  The radiation radial burst is better than the magnetic except maybe against corpus.

 

     Compared to the other syndicate weapons, the secura dual cestra is completely underpowered. Many people are upset about their synoid being underpowered (I personally would like it to use less ammo but just have a lower dps) but they don't realize that despite the synoid being spoiled by its high rof, the secura dual cestra are still worse in every way. They need a buff. status is decided by your elemental combos, anyway, not the weapon's damage type. It's true, the secura have the best radial burst damage type, but this is ALSO paired with the worst buff, shields. In that sense, suda's and perrin's effects are balanced, so we can take them out of the equation

Edited May 26, 2015 by Ironlixivium

[Holeypaladin]

Secura cestra just needs to have the same damage per bullet as telos akboltos.  Then it would be balanced, since it has a similar rate of fire and so many people use autofire macros.

[9tailboy]

I actually like secura dual cestra as of right now, it kicks &#! and I think its really good with the standard buildup, personally its one of the best syndicate weapons, but I'll take a buff to the secura dual cestra :D

 

I've tried all but the sancti castanas so I know how these weapons function, they're pretty much on par with each other

[Urlan]

I would prefer weapons being improved versus good weapons being made less so, for me at least; the Dual Secura Cestra could use some reload time reduction and a larger mag and I would think it would be in a better state. The damage is already pretty solid, I use it on my Vauban when something has gone wrong and I need to kill something in a hurry.

[vaugahn]

I'm waiting for someone to come in here and respond angrily to the title.

 

On topic: yes, Secura Cestras are in dire need of a buff. I agree with all the proposed changes here. Note that damage is not the only balance factor, two weapons can deal very different amounts of damage and still be in balance with each other.

[Ironlixivium]

I actually like secura dual cestra as of right now, it kicks ! and I think its really good with the standard buildup, personally its one of the best syndicate weapons, but I'll take a buff to the secura dual cestra :D

 

I've tried all but the sancti castanas so I know how these weapons function, they're pretty much on par with each other

 

whut? I just showed you that they don't even have the same dps as synoid...

...and synoid has a larger clip size, better reload, no recoil....

have you just only potatoed your secura or something?

 

Secura cestra just needs to have the same damage per bullet as telos akboltos.  Then it would be balanced, since it has a similar rate of fire and so many people use autofire macros.

 

ehh...huh? that would be...insanely op... I was thinking more along the lines of higher damage per shot, (but not that high) faster spool up, and faster reload. I'd like to see securas dps be about 400-420 (synoid is 420). Yes, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, seeing as the synoid has 420, plus decent status/crit stats. the secura don't have decent secondary stats, so, to be on par, they should have at least close to synoid's dps, with a little more ammo efficiency.

 

two weapons can deal very different amounts of damage and still be in balance with each other.

 

     Yes, this balance is done through secondary stats, like...

crit: synoid beats it :/

status: synoid beats it :/

accuracy: synoid beats it to death :/

reload(?): yeah, synoid beats it in that, too...

efficiency: initially it appears the secura is slightly better, but if you calculate in crit stats, the synoid still beats it :/

 

Yeah, it's just on a whole other level, and by that I mean the synoid gammacor is a direct upgrade. Sorry secura fans, I know it's awesome, but statistically, its the worst syndicate weapon, and NEEDS to be buffed. I can't stress that enough.

[Urlan]

Weapons don't need to have the same dps or what not, they just need to be balanced enough that they are solid 'end-game' capable gear. The Synoid Gammacor for instance had to get shotgun level close to get its best damage, the Dual Secura Cestra. The syndicate gear should of a roughly similar power not the same damage, ammo effeciency, good for the same warframes, or missions. Still they should be better than most alternatives based on the requirement to get them.

[TwevOWNED]

Weapons don't need to have the same dps or what not, they just need to be balanced enough that they are solid 'end-game' capable gear. The Synoid Gammacor for instance had to get shotgun level close to get its best damage, the Dual Secura Cestra. The syndicate gear should of a roughly similar power not the same damage, ammo effeciency, good for the same warframes, or missions. Still they should be better than most alternatives based on the requirement to get them.

The thing is, the gun is outclassed in every way by the Synoid and Vaykor syndicate weapons. The Synoid is so much better that it can waste three mod slots on range, punch through, and ammo mutation and still be more useful in all ways to the Secura. Your argument fits better with New Loka's weapon, as it fills a different purpose than the others and is better in different situations. The thing with the Secura is that it will never be better efficiency wise than the Synoid or Vaykor.

[VampirePirate]

I'm waiting for someone to come in here and respond angrily to the title.

 

On topic: yes, Secura Cestras are in dire need of a buff. I agree with all the proposed changes here. Note that damage is not the only balance factor, two weapons can deal very different amounts of damage and still be in balance with each other.

*Stares angrily at the title*

 

There you go.

[Ironlixivium]

Weapons don't need to have the same dps or what not, they just need to be balanced enough that they are solid 'end-game' capable gear. The Synoid Gammacor for instance had to get shotgun level close to get its best damage, the Dual Secura Cestra. The syndicate gear should of a roughly similar power not the same damage, ammo effeciency, good for the same warframes, or missions. Still they should be better than most alternatives based on the requirement to get them.

 

Thing is, it's a direct downgrade. The only thing that could possibly be better is range and ammo efficiency, but:

it's range is offset by the insane recoil, which causes you to sometimes be unable to hit targets that are within a synoid's range, and we can copter across a room in less that 2 seconds, so it's like you can't just hop within range

and when critical stats are applied, ammo efficiency is worse than the synoid

 

The thing is, the gun is outclassed in every way by the Synoid and Vaykor syndicate weapons. The Synoid is so much better that it can waste three mod slots on range, punch through, and ammo mutation and still be more useful in all ways to the Secura. Your argument fits better with New Loka's weapon, as it fills a different purpose than the others and is better in different situations. The thing with the Secura is that it will never be better efficiency wise than the Synoid or Vaykor.

 

     Exactly. It's not a difference of trade offs, dps for status and such, secura dual cestra is 100% a direct downgrade from the synoid gammacor.

DE, PLEASE buff the secura dual cestra.

[nms.]

The recoil is fine, the spool up however is quite annoying.

[Urlan]

The Dual Secura Cestra can't be a downgrade as its not a related weapon to it except them both being syndicate weapons. That said, the Dual Secura can kill a heavy without using a Corrosive Projection to do its damage, with is significant. The recoil is similar to all weapons with recoil, pull down a small amount or aim for the chest. The Synoid Gammacor has its own trade-offs including range, and now a low base damage and ammo efficiency. To argue for nerfing other weapons to be nerfed while the gun could be improved slightly to make it more than useful is a rash choice.

 

As for ammo efficiency, I think having a lower base damage with 7.5 times ammo consumption sorta makes arguements about the Synoid versus Dual Secura somewhat silly. The Dual Secura could not match the Synoid's old ammo economy - no sidearm did - that is one of the reasons it was changed. Currently the Vaykor Marelok has the best ammo economy of the three if we are getting into it but the lower burst damage. The Synoid having the best with armor reduction applied; then Dual Secura with no armor reduction; and then The Vaykor Marelok. Will the Vaykor and Synoid do more damage than the Dual Secura? Yes, in the right circumstances, they easily will. In general, fast weapons are always going to be ammo inefficient compared to high base damage slow weapons as many primaries can show as well. I can kill enemies and be low on ammo with my Dual Secura by the end of a mission; I can sometimes kill one enemy and be low on ammo with the current version of the Synoid Gammacor. Understanding these interactions are sometimes key in identifying a weapons weak and strong points.

[DSpite]

Please stop complaining that the gun might not reach 40K DPS.

 

I still don't understand why a weapon has to be measured by how many rotations it can still be useful in in a mode that goes on forever.

 

Does it get to 20K DPS? Yes? That's already way over norm, so I suggest you add utility mods, instead of more damage. If you can't kill things with 20K DPS it's because you are not hitting them by using the weapon outside it's normal usage envelope.

[Ironlixivium]

-snip-

 

     First, they're both straight damage dps weapons, so yeah, they have quite a bit in common. I pointed this out. I compared the stats. They're fairly similar. From reading the rest of you post it's almost as if we're talking about different weapons. With our elemental mods letting us add 300% elemental damage, a weapon's damage type doesn't really mean much of anything. A synoid will out dps a secura in every situation that doesn't include range, which in game, is about 99% of situations. I'm questioning whether you actually read the post. The secura dual cestra NEED a nerf. They are VERY comparable to eachother, which I demonstrated, but if you had read the post, you would know that...

 

Please stop complaining that the gun might not reach 40K DPS.

 

I still don't understand why a weapon has to be measured by how many rotations it can still be useful in in a mode that goes on forever.

 

Does it get to 20K DPS? Yes? That's already way over norm, so I suggest you add utility mods, instead of more damage. If you can't kill things with 20K DPS it's because you are not hitting them by using the weapon outside it's normal usage envelope.

 

     I'm getting tired of those who don't read the post...you just sound like someone who is fine with everything as long as what they have works for them. 

 

The recoil is fine, the spool up however is quite annoying.

 

     Are we using the same weapons? Cause, you know, I'd tell you how tactical potato described it, but idk if DE would think its appropriate. Let's just say that the dual cestra are infamous for their S#&$ty recoil. Try them without steady hands. 

[Nines.AI]

The weapon needs abuff

 

But this whole "LOL CLICKBAIT XDD" thing needs to stop

 

You realize there's a thread preview button you can click before entering a thread, right?

[Sakatchi]

Lol op.

 

DE finds the concept of actually doubling a magizine a very hard thing to do. See all our akimbo weapons. Neary all of them go from like 8 shots to 14, you do the same or less damage from firing two guns at once, and you get a butthair more fire rate. No change on crit or status.

 

I think all the akimbo weapons including the dual cestra and its syndicate variant need to be reworked to actually function as two guns.

 

Yes that means buffs.

[Avalona]

I didn't farmed some billion number of EXP and wasting many many weeks farming rep for syndicate weapons just to have some MR2 who just started the game asking to nerf it down because "hurr these people were in my game and they killed everything, NERF NERF NERF!!!1"

[Ironlixivium]

The weapon needs abuff

 

But this whole "LOL CLICKBAIT XDD" thing needs to stop

 

You realize there's a thread preview button you can click before entering a thread, right?

 

Yeah, sad thing is I wouldn't have gotten this much attention with a "buff the secura" title. 

 

I didn't farmed some billion number of EXP and wasting many many weeks farming rep for syndicate weapons just to have some MR2 who just started the game asking to nerf it down because "hurr these people were in my game and they killed everything, NERF NERF NERF!!!1"

 

Neither did I, that's the entire point of the post that you didn't read.

[blazekan5]

PLEASE READ THE POST

Glad I could get your attention without the use of click bait. It really shows initiative throughout the community.

 

The secura dual cestra are in desperate need of a buff

 

• the recoil is terrible

• the dps is average

• it needs to spool up to even get to its already mid tier dps (my point is it doesn't have any trade offs for its many downsides)

• its reload is terrible

• it's overall worse in every way than even our recently nerfed synoid gammacor. 

 

It's been completely neglected and NEEDS a buff. It doesn't even have the correct magazine size.

 

secura dual cestra:

• damage: 30

• rof: 12.5

• crit chance: 5%

• crit multi: 1.5x

• status chance: 7.5%

• magazine: 100

• reload: 3.5s

• trigger: auto, requires spool up

 

Synoid gammacor:

• damage: 28

• rof: 15

• crit chance: 10%

• crit multi: 2.0x

• status chance: 20%

• magazine: 150

• reload: 2.0s

• trigger: auto

 

     As you can see right there, the synoid gammacor is better in every way except damage per shot, but of course, factor in crit chance and you don't even have that.

 

     Something I've heard before, is that the synoid is one of our best dps weapons, and I shouldn't compare it to that. Problem is though, I think everyone can agree syndicate weapons should be balanced? Y'know, since we compare them all the time? SO, are you suggesting we nerf the synoid AGAIN down to secura's level...? I didn't think so.

 

     This is infuriating, how DE completely ignored this weapon. It's easily the worst syndicate weapon out there. It either needs to be buffed, or every other weapon needs to be nerfed down to its level.

 

TL;DR: statistically, secura dual cestra are the worst syndicate weapons and needs to be buffed. 

 

EDIT: My suggestion:

 

• Boost the damage from 30 to 34. (I know, sounds like nothing, but it actually raises the dps to 425 without crits included)

 

• Lower the recoil. Not to synoid levels, but make it manageable. It's part of the weapon, so it shouldn't be removed.

 

• Make it spool up faster. Again, it should still be there, it should be less of an issue though.

 

• Reduce the reload speed to at most 2.5, I would prefer 2 to match the synoid.

 

• Raise the magazine size to 120 and spare ammo to 240. Seriously, the single cestra has a clip of 60, I know DE has a lot on their hands, but this seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

I know someone's gonna have an issue with that dps, so I'll save everyone's time and energy by clarifying:

     Our current synoid has a straight damage dps of 420. I think most people have had that beaten into their skulls by now. BUT, the dps with crits included is actually 462*. With a straight dps of 425, secura dual cestra would actually have a dps of 435.6*. In other words, with these changes, secura dual cestra would STILL have:

 

• worse dps

• recoil

• spool up

• worse status chance

 

But, it would have:

• better ammo efficiency

• more range

 

Making it still a little behind the synoid gammacor, but for the most part an alternative of equal tier. 

 

     As you can see here, (and I hope I've shown well) the secura dual cestra is desperately in need of a buff. I've thought about this for a while and considered the options. If there's anything I left out, tell me, otherwise I would really appreciate your upvote so I can get DE's attention.

 

*Dps with crits

This is how I found the dps with crits: (probably should skip this if you hate math)

(dps + ((crit multi - 1) x (dps x crit multi)))

So for the synoid gammacor it would be:

(420 + ((2.0 - 1) x (420 x 0.1)))

My reasoning behind this equation (as I made it myself) is to find the percent of damage effected by crits (in this case, 10% or 0.1) and multiply it by one less than the crit multiplier to find the additional damage (the "- 1" is what excludes the original damage, so that we aren't accounting for that twice) then just add it to the dps to get the final number.

NOOOOOOO.

[Ironlixivium]

NOOOOOOO.

 

    What problem do you have with buffing the dual cestra? they're the worst syndicate weapon, and NEED to be looked at again.