Why Some Weapons Are Still Designed To Damage The User?

[YasaiTsume]

Just remove it.
 

Reason: I'm tired of wasting my precious Insta Revives on people who endlessly blow themselves up against the ground cos they can't aim for dear life. 

[AzureTerra]

It should stay, keeps you on your toes and generally more aware of where you shots are going if they can obliterate you.

 

Outdated weapons, hardly. I have a Tonkor but i still use both my Secura Penta and Ogris on a regular basis (particularly in groups in case of a self destruct happening) Foma'd the hek out of both. I have a friend who still wrecks anything he can meet with a 7 forma Penta and im sure once he can be bothered to reach MR 12 he will get a Secura.

[RealPandemonium]

The game still pretended to be balanced back when launchers had their heyday.  Self-damage is just a relic of that time, now.  Maybe they'll fix it with Damage 3.0, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

[Inmemoratus]

At best it would just replace 99% blessing Trinity with 0% blessing Trinity in sorties and other high level content because everyone just gets oneshot, so Trinity never catches someone at low health to benefit from the damage reduction at all.

 

No, before you claim it, I don't even have a Blessing Trinity build.

 

(Even more likely is that maxed-duration Trinities would just step out with their QT in front of a sniper round, land on 2 health, and carry on giving that 99% damage reduction. It'd just be a little bit less convenient.)

 

 

Add self damage to the Tonkor. Before it took over by being the zero risk, 400% reward alternative to any other launcher, I was still seeing a reasonable amount of Penta users. Trying to avoid falling on your rear end in a 'whoopsie' moment is half the fun (and skill) of using an explosive weapon!

Plus, everyone gets to have a good laugh when you do slip up.

 

People don't get 1 shot that much in sorties, come on dude. I do them every day. Actually I rarely see Trinity anyway.

 

There's no need for the 99% blessing exploit. But it's a bad thing to keep in the game anyway.

[Hellmaker2004]

I play none damage Trinity and i play plenty of Sortier. Sometimes when the enemy have Element augment you can die really fast but i've rarely seen a one shot and it feels so much more rewarding playing as a Trinity when you heal your teammates in a correct way and give the the protection after, ratter than preemptively.

All self damage Trinity with 99% Damage reduction does is make the game harder to balance without it, and sets a unrealistic standard for all other Trinity players that do not want to self damage.

[TheLexiConArtist]

People don't get 1 shot that much in sorties, come on dude. I do them every day. Actually I rarely see Trinity anyway.

 

There's no need for the 99% blessing exploit. But it's a bad thing to keep in the game anyway.

I play none damage Trinity and i play plenty of Sortier. Sometimes when the enemy have Element augment you can die really fast but i've rarely seen a one shot and it feels so much more rewarding playing as a Trinity when you heal your teammates in a correct way and give the the protection after, ratter than preemptively.

All self damage Trinity with 99% Damage reduction does is make the game harder to balance without it, and sets a unrealistic standard for all other Trinity players that do not want to self damage.

 

Oneshot is.. moderately frequent, especially when Element Enhancements hit Ballista/Railgun/Sniper units.

 

Effectively getting killed before reaction is possible, even though it isn't a single-shot kill, is pretty much a given the moment you make a slight mistake in anything but a coordinated team.

 

I'm not saying that self-damage 99% bless should stay, but if it goes, it has to go at the same time as making the enemies' damage curtain something that doesn't practically require a Trinity spamming 4 to keep an ally alive. The reason it gave invulnerability in the first place was so that you gave an ally a chance to react and make use of the heal, whereas anything less than 75% damage reduction in some non-endless content like damage-augmented Sortie Third-Missions isn't even enough to make that second full health and shield bar last long enough to do anything but fall right back down again.

 

I used to play my non-EV, non-Bless all-ability-using Trinity in sorties. It just got frustrating when people died before I got a chance to react. Then I modded up my Ivara and found it was literally more efficient and less stressful to just send the surrounding area to sleep and/or cloak a downed player to revive them. The deadline for actually healing most frames is just too tight, especially when they're squishy frames and not running high EHP.

 

I get annihilated in a split second sometimes even though I always use Redirection and Vitality on all my general-use frame loadouts. What chance is there of healing others in time when they only have one of the two?

 

 

Bringing this back to the topic at hand, self-damage shouldn't just be removed "because it'd stop blessing Trinity". That would be treating a symptom, not a cause, and at the cost of dumbing down a weapon archetype. The necessity/degeneracy of the 99% Blessing strategem is so far removed from the point it shouldn't even be included in the discussion.

Having something else to rely on for enemies that are so close you'd damage yourself with explosives is why Secondaries and Melee exist. Compelling gameplay.

(It's your own stupid fault if things get too close and you blow yourself up because you took a rocket launcher alone to a Sortie that stops you using either of the other weapon types.)

[Inmemoratus]

Oneshot is.. moderately frequent, especially when Element Enhancements hit Ballista/Railgun/Sniper units.

 

Effectively getting killed before reaction is possible, even though it isn't a single-shot kill, is pretty much a given the moment you make a slight mistake in anything but a coordinated team.

 

I'm not saying that self-damage 99% bless should stay, but if it goes, it has to go at the same time as making the enemies' damage curtain something that doesn't practically require a Trinity spamming 4 to keep an ally alive. The reason it gave invulnerability in the first place was so that you gave an ally a chance to react and make use of the heal, whereas anything less than 75% damage reduction in some non-endless content like damage-augmented Sortie Third-Missions isn't even enough to make that second full health and shield bar last long enough to do anything but fall right back down again.

 

I used to play my non-EV, non-Bless all-ability-using Trinity in sorties. It just got frustrating when people died before I got a chance to react. Then I modded up my Ivara and found it was literally more efficient and less stressful to just send the surrounding area to sleep and/or cloak a downed player to revive them. The deadline for actually healing most frames is just too tight, especially when they're squishy frames and not running high EHP.

 

I get annihilated in a split second sometimes even though I always use Redirection and Vitality on all my general-use frame loadouts. What chance is there of healing others in time when they only have one of the two?

 

 

Bringing this back to the topic at hand, self-damage shouldn't just be removed "because it'd stop blessing Trinity". That would be treating a symptom, not a cause, and at the cost of dumbing down a weapon archetype. The necessity/degeneracy of the 99% Blessing strategem is so far removed from the point it shouldn't even be included in the discussion.

Having something else to rely on for enemies that are so close you'd damage yourself with explosives is why Secondaries and Melee exist. Compelling gameplay.

(It's your own stupid fault if things get too close and you blow yourself up because you took a rocket launcher alone to a Sortie that stops you using either of the other weapon types.)

 

Ideally you'd be right, but people just don't use those weapons anymore outside of said exploit.

 

What about just reducing the self damage to the point where it doesn't 1 shot yourself anymore? It would still be a bad idea to damage yourself because it just makes the enemy's job easier, sorta like Thunderbolt and similar mods. I'm not saying as low damage as those ones though.

 

I guess they could address the Blessing thing some other way anyway.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[TheLexiConArtist]

Ideally you'd be right, but people just don't use those weapons anymore outside of said exploit.

 

What about just reducing the self damage to the point where it doesn't 1 shot yourself anymore? It would still be a bad idea to damage yourself because it just makes the enemy's job easier, sorta like Thunderbolt and similar mods. I'm not saying as low damage as those ones though.

 

I guess they could address the Blessing thing some other way anyway.

 

Not going to lie, last time I used my Ogris in earnest was way back before the Trin rework when I could immunise myself against the backlash... for a price. That's kind of a big point - it's something that could be Nullified now we have such units, it's something you had to set up for. The Tonkor just.. doesn't kill you to begin with, apropos of nothing.

 

Some sort of pseudo-QT built into self damage is an interesting thought, but where do you draw the line? Do you have permanent selfdamage immortality, or is it just a final grace that would let you still die if you just blew yourself up again at the grace threshold/2hp (at which point you have to concern yourself with multishot and how that reacts to the grace moment)?

 

Thunderbolt-like mods though.. they only do 'little' self damage because they do relatively small damage numbers in general, enemies and self alike. A maxed firerate Concealed Explosives Hikou Prime thrown at the user's feet would add up pretty fast.

 

Self-inflicting certain statuses can be a bit problematic as well. Blast is kind of a given, but when you give yourself Viral, or god forbid Magnetic.. That's a painful lesson on where to stand/aim.

I'd like to see markers on explosives to identify them in the environment - a bit like the Elytron marks its projectiles so you can blow them up at the right distance. This is especially relevant for triggered booms like Penta and Talons... and would be for potentially delayed explosives like the Tonkor if they gave it proper selfdamage.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

I play none damage Trinity and i play plenty of Sortier. Sometimes when the enemy have Element augment you can die really fast but i've rarely seen a one shot and it feels so much more rewarding playing as a Trinity when you heal your teammates in a correct way and give the the protection after, ratter than preemptively.

All self damage Trinity with 99% Damage reduction does is make the game harder to balance without it, and sets a unrealistic standard for all other Trinity players that do not want to self damage.

Self-damage always caused exploits, like current trinity. It really needs to go, tbh. Link exploits, iron skin etc.

[Inmemoratus]

Not going to lie, last time I used my Ogris in earnest was way back before the Trin rework when I could immunise myself against the backlash... for a price. That's kind of a big point - it's something that could be Nullified now we have such units, it's something you had to set up for. The Tonkor just.. doesn't kill you to begin with, apropos of nothing.

 

Some sort of pseudo-QT built into self damage is an interesting thought, but where do you draw the line? Do you have permanent selfdamage immortality, or is it just a final grace that would let you still die if you just blew yourself up again at the grace threshold/2hp (at which point you have to concern yourself with multishot and how that reacts to the grace moment)?

 

Thunderbolt-like mods though.. they only do 'little' self damage because they do relatively small damage numbers in general, enemies and self alike. A maxed firerate Concealed Explosives Hikou Prime thrown at the user's feet would add up pretty fast.

 

Self-inflicting certain statuses can be a bit problematic as well. Blast is kind of a given, but when you give yourself Viral, or god forbid Magnetic.. That's a painful lesson on where to stand/aim.

I'd like to see markers on explosives to identify them in the environment - a bit like the Elytron marks its projectiles so you can blow them up at the right distance. This is especially relevant for triggered booms like Penta and Talons... and would be for potentially delayed explosives like the Tonkor if they gave it proper selfdamage.

 

Well Tonkor does do self damage... but it's only 50. The launchers generally should do more self damage than that, but like the Tonkor it shouldn't scale off the mods on the weapon.

 

Also, what about a self stagger instead of massive damage? Say 100 damage and a stagger... or even a self knockdown. That would allow it to be used in close range intelligently. Like when you know you won't leave any real threats standing. But if you miscalculate and a threatening enemy is able to take advantage...

Edited February 9, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[Guest]

*Quickly dies in conclave when people fire a dozen grenades at me*

Say what now? (I admit I suck at PvP, but the choice of weapon's the main point)

But still bigger risk = bigger reward approach is understandable.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Guest

[--Q--XFA]

YES!! agree.

[CronosZX]

What I dont get is why

 

High Reward / Low Risk = Tonkor

 

Medium Reward / High Risk = Any other launcher (Including secondaries)

 

Is still a thing.

[IceColdHawk]

What I dont get is why

 

High Reward / Low Risk = Tonkor

 

Medium Reward / High Risk = Any other launcher (Including secondaries)

 

Is still a thing.

Tonkor is new, other launchers are old. Technology is evolving.

[CronosZX]

Tonkor is new, other launchers are old. Technology is evolving.

 

Kinda funny since Tonkor is Grineer (Aka duct tape powered), whereas Penta is corpus (High-Tek)

 

If something I'd expect the Corpus Launchers (Penta/secura, Angstrum, ...Castanas....?) to have a built in safety system.

Edited February 9, 2016 by CronosZX

[(PSN)shadowraith_666]

Bombards, Penta Rangers, Infested exploding enemy (can't remember name), napalms and any other enemy that uses an AOE weapon or grenades aren't effected by self-damage, so why should we?

[TheLexiConArtist]

Well Tonkor does do self damage... but it's only 50. The launchers generally should do more self damage than that, but like the Tonkor it shouldn't scale off the mods on the weapon.

 

Also, what about a self stagger instead of massive damage? Say 100 damage and a stagger... or even a self knockdown. That would allow it to be used in close range intelligently. Like when you know you won't leave any real threats standing. But if you miscalculate and a threatening enemy is able to take advantage...

 

Most of them self knockdown already - blast damage procs and all - but I think that scaling the self-damage with mods with stronger limitations would be best. Otherwise you still get the Tonkor issue (guaranteed stagger or knockdown aside) with a largely ignorable damage risk despite the massive reward.

 

Just went into the Sim to test current behaviour with the Ogris and Tonkor, and I found the following issues:

 

• You can crit yourself with most self damage. This doesn't happen much on Ogris with its 5% rate, but it's kind of a pain in its unreliability.

• Self damage scales directly with mods, but only begins at a lower value. 150 base self-damage isn't bad, but adding your damage multipliers on top of that (let's say all 4 elements and Serration) gives you some suicidal results with incredible ease - +1.65x for Serration, then +3.6x of the result for four 90% elements and you've now already hit 1828 potential self damage. That doesn't even take into account 3 additional mod slots, multishot and the like.

• Self damage carries over damage types and status chance from the host weapon. You modded toxin damage on there? You don't even have shield EHP to tank some of that damage. The chance of proccing yourself with high DOT from heat/gas/toxin and slashing your functionality with Magnetic exists.

• Not even the paltry 50 selfdamage of the Tonkor is increased at all by any mods. It also cannot even self-crit, 'luckily' for the Crit Launcher, or proc the user with anything as far as I noticed while spamming it against some Sensor Regulators for a while.

 

 

I suggest giving the user some innate percentile damage resistance (value dependant on balance) to their own explosive but still allowing the actual damage to scale up with mods (possibly with an upper limit). Shooting a fully powered rocket at your feet should still be a 'whoops, better not do that again' feeling.

 

Also look into limiting self-status proccing and the risk of modding shield-bypass elementals (Gas and Toxin) if you want to limit the magnitude of the risk without completely removing any risk at all.

 

In the Ogris' case, going from 650 base damage to around 10k with a few basic damage mods - even 90% self infliction DR  means you still eat some fraction of 1000 damage yourself depending on how close you misfired, which is still not an instant self-kill for any frame with reasonable EHP modding, but while you're 'getting to know the weapon' it's a minor at worst (65 selfdamage until you fit it with some more beefiness).

 

The percentile reduction greatly slows down the approach to instant self-kill as long as you're modding to be resilient enough to eat a mistake like that, compared to the 'lower base, same scaling' approach. Compared to the previous 1828 for serration and four elements, we have (650 * 2.65 * 4.6) * 0.1 = 792 self damage. Still a risk, but much more manageable.

 

(In terms of our old friend Bless Trin, non-launcher self damage could be given less innate resistance if that playstyle was to be kept, or would make it a lot less viable through less capacity for self-damage with a mere melee weapon if the resistance was matched to the strong value for launchers - especially if Toxin was prevented from bypassing shields in this way to limit the self-infliction risk)

Edited February 9, 2016 by EDYinnit

[Hellmaker2004]

Change the self damage, so we can remove the most abused system in this game.

 

Either remove all of the self damage.

 

Or make it so no matter the damage you take, if it is self inflicted you go down.

 

Maybe a little extreme but it would fix the abuse we are seeing now.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Hellmaker2004

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Just make them all non scaling, like tonkor. Tonkor always does 50, ogris should always do 650. Also, ogris needs a massive damage buff.

Funny thing with ogris, modded with status and adhesive blast it will stick a rocket to enemy and proc like mad for a few seconds. Then explode, while enemy has been corroded several times for example. I'd like to use it more, but it's only 10-12K damage, assuming you'd use basic fire rate increase and status buffs.

[-N7-Leonhart]

Just make them all non scaling, like tonkor. Tonkor always does 50, ogris should always do 650. Also, ogris needs a massive damage buff.

Funny thing with ogris, modded with status and adhesive blast it will stick a rocket to enemy and proc like mad for a few seconds. Then explode, while enemy has been corroded several times for example. I'd like to use it more, but it's only 10-12K damage, assuming you'd use basic fire rate increase and status buffs.

 

I don't get the reasoning with the 650 damage. After all, Tonkor doesn't have only 50 base damage.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Just make them all non scaling, like tonkor. Tonkor always does 50, ogris should always do 650. Also, ogris needs a massive damage buff.

Funny thing with ogris, modded with status and adhesive blast it will stick a rocket to enemy and proc like mad for a few seconds. Then explode, while enemy has been corroded several times for example. I'd like to use it more, but it's only 10-12K damage, assuming you'd use basic fire rate increase and status buffs.

I don't get the reasoning with the 650 damage. After all, Tonkor doesn't have only 50 base damage.

 

As I outlined above, the Ogris does a base 150 (but fully mod-scaling) self damage currently; Tonkor would do approximately 92 at the same ratio.

 

Or you increase the Tonkor selfdamage to 400 (or 200x2) if you're going to make the Ogris' 650, both nonscaling beyond that (besides multishot?).

 

 

Still think you're removing some of the point of launchers if you do this though. Big damage from a big weapon should be felt, even if it's by you because you shot it too close. Just throttle things down to a reasonable point instead of going from 0 to instakill (or 0 to 0 in the current Tonkor case).

[-N7-Leonhart]

As I outlined above, the Ogris does a base 150 (but fully mod-scaling) self damage currently; Tonkor would do approximately 92 at the same ratio.

 

Or you increase the Tonkor selfdamage to 400 (or 200x2) if you're going to make the Ogris' 650, both nonscaling beyond that (besides multishot?).

 

 

Still think you're removing some of the point of launchers if you do this though. Big damage from a big weapon should be felt, even if it's by you because you shot it too close. Just throttle things down to a reasonable point instead of going from 0 to instakill (or 0 to 0 in the current Tonkor case).

 

You point is null because Tonkor does more damage than Ogris. So, Ogris should have even lower than 50 self-damage, by that rule. It's obvious that the self-damage in Tonkor's case it's not base damage related. It's just there as a specific chosen value.

Edited February 10, 2016 by -BM-StormVanguard

[Inmemoratus]

Most of them self knockdown already - blast damage procs and all - but I think that scaling the self-damage with mods with stronger limitations would be best. Otherwise you still get the Tonkor issue (guaranteed stagger or knockdown aside) with a largely ignorable damage risk despite the massive reward.

 

Just went into the Sim to test current behaviour with the Ogris and Tonkor, and I found the following issues:

 

• You can crit yourself with most self damage. This doesn't happen much on Ogris with its 5% rate, but it's kind of a pain in its unreliability.

• Self damage scales directly with mods, but only begins at a lower value. 150 base self-damage isn't bad, but adding your damage multipliers on top of that (let's say all 4 elements and Serration) gives you some suicidal results with incredible ease - +1.65x for Serration, then +3.6x of the result for four 90% elements and you've now already hit 1828 potential self damage. That doesn't even take into account 3 additional mod slots, multishot and the like.

• Self damage carries over damage types and status chance from the host weapon. You modded toxin damage on there? You don't even have shield EHP to tank some of that damage. The chance of proccing yourself with high DOT from heat/gas/toxin and slashing your functionality with Magnetic exists.

• Not even the paltry 50 selfdamage of the Tonkor is increased at all by any mods. It also cannot even self-crit, 'luckily' for the Crit Launcher, or proc the user with anything as far as I noticed while spamming it against some Sensor Regulators for a while.

 

 

I suggest giving the user some innate percentile damage resistance (value dependant on balance) to their own explosive but still allowing the actual damage to scale up with mods (possibly with an upper limit). Shooting a fully powered rocket at your feet should still be a 'whoops, better not do that again' feeling.

 

Also look into limiting self-status proccing and the risk of modding shield-bypass elementals (Gas and Toxin) if you want to limit the magnitude of the risk without completely removing any risk at all.

 

In the Ogris' case, going from 650 base damage to around 10k with a few basic damage mods - even 90% self infliction DR  means you still eat some fraction of 1000 damage yourself depending on how close you misfired, which is still not an instant self-kill for any frame with reasonable EHP modding, but while you're 'getting to know the weapon' it's a minor at worst (65 selfdamage until you fit it with some more beefiness).

 

The percentile reduction greatly slows down the approach to instant self-kill as long as you're modding to be resilient enough to eat a mistake like that, compared to the 'lower base, same scaling' approach. Compared to the previous 1828 for serration and four elements, we have (650 * 2.65 * 4.6) * 0.1 = 792 self damage. Still a risk, but much more manageable.

 

(In terms of our old friend Bless Trin, non-launcher self damage could be given less innate resistance if that playstyle was to be kept, or would make it a lot less viable through less capacity for self-damage with a mere melee weapon if the resistance was matched to the strong value for launchers - especially if Toxin was prevented from bypassing shields in this way to limit the self-infliction risk)

 

I don't like the approach of simply slapping on a damage reduction and leaving all the mechanics in place. Random chance to status yourself or crit yourself doesn't serve any purpose in giving it clear decision points in gameplay.

 

If it needs to scale off the mods (I honestly don't get why because most of the time we're using it with mods) then it should do an amount of damage that is reasonable. If it's going to do some sort of CC or status effect to the user, it should always do it and be independent of the status chance of the weapon or the damage types modded to it. The decision points when playing with the weapon should be clear and consistent.

[TheLexiConArtist]

For some reason I thought the Tonkor shot two grenades naturally. I don't use it because it's too cheap for my tastes. Some stuff I said earlier is rendered null and void by me realising otherwise.

 

You point is null because Tonkor does more damage than Ogris. So, Ogris should have even lower than 50 self-damage, by that rule. It's obvious that the self-damage in Tonkor's case it's not base damage related. It's just there as a specific chosen value.

 

Tonkor does 325 base blast damage (and 75 puncture damage on direct hits). Ogris does 650 base blast damage. What? Crits are irrelevant since I was speaking in base damage terms before any modifiers, critting or modding alike.

(Saying it should do 200x2 for full base selfdamage was an oversight on my random misconception of firing double 'nades without Split Chamber. 400 or at least 325 would be its base if you increased Ogris to 650 from the current 150. Likewise a proportionate 92 assumes the 75 puncture is taken into account, whereas it would be 75 base selfdamage proportioned from the blast damage alone)

 

I don't like the approach of simply slapping on a damage reduction and leaving all the mechanics in place. Random chance to status yourself or crit yourself doesn't serve any purpose in giving it clear decision points in gameplay.

 

If it needs to scale off the mods (I honestly don't get why because most of the time we're using it with mods) then it should do an amount of damage that is reasonable. If it's going to do some sort of CC or status effect to the user, it should always do it and be independent of the status chance of the weapon or the damage types modded to it. The decision points when playing with the weapon should be clear and consistent.

 

Well, I did include a comment in there about self-proccing being investigated. Good thing magnetic is a suboptimal damage type to mod into so we don't generally risk proccing that mess on ourselves.

 

The risk of selfproccing high DOTs, selfdamage bypassing shields and particularly debilitating statuses like Viral and Magnetic would support stripping modded damage types and status chance in favour of a static stagger/knockdown like you suggested, and even a Damage Resistance modifier being also coupled with a fixing of the self infliction damage type to something physical as a balance point.

 

 

I don't know about you, but if I don't risk severely wounding myself by shooting explosives at point blank range like a complete pillock, then I don't feel like I'm using a

Scaling up from base damage with mods lets someone get used to blast radii and the weapon in general with negligible self damage while the weapon is unranked and unmodded, then take it out with bigger reward and proportionally bigger risk once they feel more comfortable.

Just not so much risk that you're killing yourself with a slight mistake before you've even got the weapon near maximum potential; hence the percentile resistance to slow the amplification of the damage you're dealing to yourself to something you can take a bit better.

I also did suggest the possibility of an upper limit if it gets too ridiculous, I don't know. That's for a balance team to decide, but the discrepancy between "no scaling" and "100% scaling" seems like there could be a nice middle ground that keeps the feeling.

Edited February 10, 2016 by EDYinnit

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

hmm do I take a penta and become a burden to the team constantly asking for revives? oooor do I take another weapon i.e. soma, boltor, quanta, synoid, rakta, dread, etc?

 

Thats the main problem and for most users its simply sorry penta, ogris and angstrum you stay on that bench.

 

Folks when they say broken always mean too overpowered?

 

Well my definition of broken is not worth using since the multiple drawbacks these self damageing weapons have.

 

I was doing a mission and I ran out of revives running these self damageing weapons thanks to the kubrow playing bounce back

 

So I look at my inventory that also has stuff like glaxion and I say even the glaxion is more of a usefull weapon than these instafail mission self damageing weapons.

 

i.e. my ogris? gone to deleted graveyard

Penta?            gone to deleted graveyard

 

angstrum?, kulstar?, secura penta? all GONE!!

 

I run phage, quanta and rakta cernos instead alternating with simulor and somas and boltors and glaxion , torrid, rubrico, etc