CrownOfShadows

Listen, in low-level content I can agree with all of this. Who cares? Be Revenant, be Mesa, be Equinox - completely shut down Helene, spawn-massacre them - or be Loki and just afk, or be be anything you want - you're only there for the affinity who cares, everyone just has to deal with that bs. (it's honestly not great, but it's whatever, people can be carried or carry, everyone kinda rolls with it and exits as their patience dictates). But in higher content where it's important that all members are contributing it becomes a serious problem. Like if you're not doing something then wtf are you doing here? At least shoot something. Just leeching? Uh, not cool. Not cool at all. (you could make this same argument for the regular starchart, which is perfectly fair, but players have to start somewhere, so there has to be a certain level of forgiveness somewhere in the progression, which is why I'm not up in arms about early game balance - *but just play regular Helene and see what I mean, it's not that fun)

I can agree with some of this but not all. While giving his thralls fully ally status (invulnerability to tenno attacks) might help him significantly, I also don't think it would solve the central issues surrounding him. He'd still be overall useless. yeah... please stop with this. I never want to see this in the forums again honestly, it's so lazy. YOU go play something else. ALL Revenant players go play something else. Why should I have to quit? YOU QUIT. Or actually how about nobody quits and we square up to the actual problem? As mentioned before, I actually play solo quite a bit, I'd estimate maybe 60%-90% of the time (largely because of similar issues), but when I do play co-op (honestly my preferred experience) should this be the default experience? When new players or even average players jump into a mission, should this be the default experience? Is this what WF is about??? Are we supposed to be cool with this? This is about baselines and the overall community ... not about my personal play. I could play solo the rest of my days and this would still be a legitimate problem. Imagine a new player using something, anything, any frame you like, just trying to cross off SP nodes, and when they do get players in their missions they are always Revenant. Is it fail-mission worthy? NO (except for maybe interception). But does it make the non-Revenant player 90-100% responsible for the mission's success? Yup. And that's lame. Again, this isn't necessarily the fault of the Revenant player, but rather a failure of his kit to be engaging while also being immortal. As previously detailed, yes he's a crutch, but unlike other "cheese" frames he requires little to no upkeep and enjoys total immortality as a result. Can a Loki afk on top of the defense objective? Absolutely. Is Loki immortal? No. Do I think Loki is well balanced? Not particularly, no, (I'd introduce anti-invisibility mechanics into the game personally). Is he better balanced than Revenant? Absolutely, YES.

If you have a MR 15 Revenant, and an MR9 Revenant and an MR 12 Revenant in your Netracell group are you going to succeed? Of course. That's not what this post is about. It's about the workload. You will be doing 90% of the work in that mission, because the Revenants don't do sh*t but stay alive and maybe spray their 4 sometimes. Same for Archon missions. Same for every SP mission actually. I'm just tired of doing all the work for people who do none of it, that's all. I'm not saying MR = talent/sophistication (although there's some merit to that) but I am saying that low level players use Revenant too much and it's too free compared to what they contribute.

Plz stop with this "just don't play the game" bs

Like I said in the OP, there are many ways of cheesing, just none so easy as Revenant. Get Revenant? Good. You can do 100% of the game's content without issue and 99% of it cheesing while relying on other players. He is the pre-eminent cheese-warframe frame - do you disagree with that??? Is it not a problem?? Does it not suck for everyone else carrying him? Hello? Now to be fair (which you are not) let's examine Loki. Get Loki, you can cheese 99% of this game's content. YES. But does it require engagement? YES. I don't like the issues with invisibility, but at least they have some drawbacks (not as much as I'd personally like but they're there). Other cheese frames? You mention Mesa and Saryn, and for sure they are nukers, Revenant is not a nuker, but are Mesa and Saryn afk do-nothing frames? NO they are not. They require constant engagement. You must do things. Or why are you here? Doing nothing should = no reward. What is the issue?

Right but I see 0.01% of Rhino's / Wukongs (now) compared to Revenant. That's the main issue, together with them contributing nothing. Like a Rhino buffs and/or lifts right? Don't get me wrong, there is a deep pool here to take advantage of, Loki, and Ash are real problems (and Octavia and Ivara) but they have real drawbacks too, like if you run Loki you have to be active, otherwise you WILL get wrecked, and same for ash and octavia and a lot of other frames. This is mildly true even for Revenant, but not anywhere near the threshold needed - and I suppose that's the thrust of this post. Like just plz give him a skill that is useful for everyone (and not augment based, because mods & exilus * sh*t). Now a certain amount of plat investment is needed for Revenant Prime (I seriously doubt these players are are mostly using vanilla Revenant - a big part of the problem honestly, there's almost no grind - it's almost pay-to-win at this point, like really), so at least they have to engage a little, but omg should they be in end-game content? Uh....

Like I said in the OP, of course there are other ways for players to cheese, but those all require investment and/or have certain drawbacks. Revenant is a get-out-of-jail free card that is abused and abused and abused. You still haven't responded. Would you be ok with just you and 2-3 revenants in a high level defense? Like hello, you would be doing ALL the heavy lifting there. Is that cool? Sure it might be fine here and there, I GUESS> but is it fine as a META, as the predominant playstyle?????? I submit> NO

I EXPECT you do DO something. Maybe you as a Revenant player ARE killing things (via your weapons ofc lol) fine, but is that the case for this MR15, or this MR9, or this MR 16? NO. It is NOT the case. These are leeches. And don't get me wrong, I can tolerate ONE leech I suppose, fine whatever, but when the entire mission comes down to me, SCREW you guys, I WILL SOLO, why are you even here? Hello>? I can guarantee that unlike you these people had no intention of solo-ing this mission. They just showed up, hoped someone would carry them, and they are immortal so they are 'contributing'. WRONG. SO WRONG. Grow a pair.

I AM good son. I can carry an entire mission to cap by myself. That's not why I play WF. I play WF because I enjoy playing with people. I fully accept that other people have other ways of playing. I fully accept that other people might be less engaged than I am. I do NOT accept lazy people, people who who do NOT contribute, people who refuse to be a part of the mission because they are immortal, people who are essentially prevented from being part of the mission because their frame lacks the tools to do so. Do you accept that. Do you?

Yeah this "just play solo" argument is DOA. Plz, stop with this. Why don't YOU play solo?!?!?!?!? Hm? Like sorry for wanting to play with people..... As for newer players dying all over the place without Revenant: This really wouldn't be the case, there are plenty of options besides Revenant (which also happen to mostly contribute or else have other drawbacks that make them less enticing) Yeah, well, maybe we should just disable all scaling in this game to accommodate new players? Like there's a progression system, respect it or not (and Revenant just doesn't, more than anyone else - everyone else had respectable-ish drawbacks - I'm not happy about them, but they have a certain status quo). Git gud

Like maybe that's exactly the problem? If nobody else kills anything ( or does ANYTHING) then somebody HAS to? Or else the mission fails. Maybe that's the ENTIRE POINT.... Like what happens when you afk? The rest of the team "kills everything"? Hello? Like plz, be useful at least. I don't think being immortal for free is a great design choice, but at least be useful?!?? Are you trying to say 'nah, f*ck that, we don't need to be useful'?

True and False. Like I don't mind a Loki or even an Octavia (although that is fundamentally problematic as well) as long as they are DOING something. The thing about Revenant is that he is just enthralling enemies (if that - I've seen plenty that don't lol) and then doing nothing after. Basically at the most basic, low-effort level, I'm asking that Revenant DO something besides that (and even enthralling, as mentioned in the OP, is not that awesome of a team ability). Like please CONTRIBUTE?!@?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!? wtf And yes, I solo a lot. SHOULD I THOUGH???!?!? Is that what this game is about!?? I beg to differ sir. WF is about co-op. That is its fundamental premise. Otherwise thank you, I'll #*!% off and go play any number of other games. That might make YOU happy, but does it make DE (or the general playerbase) happy? It's not about ME it's about the generic player experience. Revenant is a kill-joy anyway you look at it. You see a Revenant, you immediately determine that player as useless (whether they actually are or not due to WEAPONS and not the FRAME), and this is because that frame IS USELESS from a team perspective. WHAT does he ACTUALLY contribute i beg you? (Besides the mediocre cc from his thralls?) He is immortal and (irritating) and THAT"S ALL>> Like I'm not especially trying to be elitist, but a Revenant in my group contributes nothing while bumping the modifiers. So gtfo or contribute damn it. You do NOTHING>

This is fundamentally the problem

Hm, yeah, but it's kindof a free gift via Circuit, it's not like they grinded the syndicate for it. Honestly props to you, I doubt 90% of Revenant players use the augment.

Look, Sayrn CONTRIBUTES, and honestly Mesa would be a better example, she mostly just fundamentally steals kills. But what does Revenant DO>?

... and this player won't contribute diddly sqaut... right or wrong?

So what would you do if none of us were there? LOSE? C'mon. Contribute a LITTLE holy christ

So if there's defense mission and it's just you with 2 or 3 Revenants you're cool with that? Just checking. Like honestly. Be real. And your excuse for Revenant being useless is "because weapons GOOD" ... sorry that't not good enough, why not play literally ANY other warframe?

I dare you to address the problem. This is a fair point.

Well, yes, I agree with you mostly. As addressed in the OP there are many ways for players to circumvent damage. However DR (whether Baruuk or the new OP intended Mirage Eclipse <cough>) is fundamentally different. DR still has an element of danger, whereas invulnerability doesn't. I don't like the scale of the DR (probably closer to 65% than 90% would be good), but it's still better than NOTHING aka Revenant. And stuff like Limbo, Loki, Ash & Octavia have their limitations (get caught? you're screwed)

Yes, imagine if I had to revive every few seconds.... or if people played ANYTHING besides Revenant? Let that sink in.

Well I'll bash you for pretending that players being immortal while doing nothing is ok. It's not. Contribute or why are you here? Oh because you can be? Not good enough, sorry. What else you got? This is about players doing nothing. Ok, imagine you're in a defense with 3 Revenants. Just imagine that. Who is doing all the work? The Revenants? No. YOU?!?!?! Yes. Sorry it's not. Contributing nothing is almost the exact same thing as afk. Whether that's their intention or not. It sucks

I literally addressed this in the OP\ Completely false and disingenuous, I just would like them to do something besides enthralling enemies. I am killing just fine. Am I carrying that loser? Am I carrying 2 losers? YES. Am i carrying 3 losers? YES. Enough. Bear your own weight. Bruh, man up and face the issue. These Revenants are just sitting there doing nothing while I ensure the mission succeeds. And they are also extremely low level. Pull your weight, that's all I'm asking. Level a legitimate counterpoint and we'll discuss it. This bullS#&amp;&#036; "go play a different game" "don't worry about the game" mentality does nobody any favors, Except the people who rely on it I guess. And like I said, I can't blame them, DE created the situation, it's just unfortunate. Being immortal while contributing nothing is a problem, do you disagree?

Yes, I agree with you. There are many replacement waiting in line. This is unfortunate, but the only way to combat it is the most egregious offender at a time. Like if he offered nothing to the team, but was not immortal either (like Loki/Ash) I honestly wouldn't be irritated. But when you play the Archon missions or Netracells or honesly any low-level SP mission and your team consists of 1-3 Revenants.... sorry but that's a problem. I agree with this, but the issue is that Revenant appears to to be the de facto answer to this issue. Is it the player's fault or DE's fault? Honestly i'm not sure. Maybe a little of both. Hm, yes and no. I agree it's not a healthy ability. Removing Revenant's invincibility actually would encourage more DR usage (stuff like Baruuk, who isn't immortal but just has great survivability) but improving Revenant in total isolation would doubtless improve the player experience who have to play with him. A lot of players seem to rely on him. I am uncertain as to the actual statistics but from my personal experience in the lower SP 1-3 members of my team tend to be Revenant, regardless of objective, and the same is true (perhaps more in the range of 1-2) players in Archon & Netracell hunts. Now it's worth noting that a significant portion of these players may be alternate accounts of high level players, but the problem remains. Allow immortality for even very low XP players? Well it's difficult, as previously detailed, but Revenant is surely the most prominent problem.

Ima let your response speak for itself Nourish is available to all warframes