CrownOfShadows

... and this player won't contribute diddly sqaut... right or wrong?

So what would you do if none of us were there? LOSE? C'mon. Contribute a LITTLE holy christ

So if there's defense mission and it's just you with 2 or 3 Revenants you're cool with that? Just checking. Like honestly. Be real. And your excuse for Revenant being useless is "because weapons GOOD" ... sorry that't not good enough, why not play literally ANY other warframe?

I dare you to address the problem. This is a fair point.

Well, yes, I agree with you mostly. As addressed in the OP there are many ways for players to circumvent damage. However DR (whether Baruuk or the new OP intended Mirage Eclipse <cough>) is fundamentally different. DR still has an element of danger, whereas invulnerability doesn't. I don't like the scale of the DR (probably closer to 65% than 90% would be good), but it's still better than NOTHING aka Revenant. And stuff like Limbo, Loki, Ash & Octavia have their limitations (get caught? you're screwed)

Yes, imagine if I had to revive every few seconds.... or if people played ANYTHING besides Revenant? Let that sink in.

Well I'll bash you for pretending that players being immortal while doing nothing is ok. It's not. Contribute or why are you here? Oh because you can be? Not good enough, sorry. What else you got? This is about players doing nothing. Ok, imagine you're in a defense with 3 Revenants. Just imagine that. Who is doing all the work? The Revenants? No. YOU?!?!?! Yes. Sorry it's not. Contributing nothing is almost the exact same thing as afk. Whether that's their intention or not. It sucks

I literally addressed this in the OP\ Completely false and disingenuous, I just would like them to do something besides enthralling enemies. I am killing just fine. Am I carrying that loser? Am I carrying 2 losers? YES. Am i carrying 3 losers? YES. Enough. Bear your own weight. Bruh, man up and face the issue. These Revenants are just sitting there doing nothing while I ensure the mission succeeds. And they are also extremely low level. Pull your weight, that's all I'm asking. Level a legitimate counterpoint and we'll discuss it. This bullS#&amp;&#036; "go play a different game" "don't worry about the game" mentality does nobody any favors, Except the people who rely on it I guess. And like I said, I can't blame them, DE created the situation, it's just unfortunate. Being immortal while contributing nothing is a problem, do you disagree?

Yes, I agree with you. There are many replacement waiting in line. This is unfortunate, but the only way to combat it is the most egregious offender at a time. Like if he offered nothing to the team, but was not immortal either (like Loki/Ash) I honestly wouldn't be irritated. But when you play the Archon missions or Netracells or honesly any low-level SP mission and your team consists of 1-3 Revenants.... sorry but that's a problem. I agree with this, but the issue is that Revenant appears to to be the de facto answer to this issue. Is it the player's fault or DE's fault? Honestly i'm not sure. Maybe a little of both. Hm, yes and no. I agree it's not a healthy ability. Removing Revenant's invincibility actually would encourage more DR usage (stuff like Baruuk, who isn't immortal but just has great survivability) but improving Revenant in total isolation would doubtless improve the player experience who have to play with him. A lot of players seem to rely on him. I am uncertain as to the actual statistics but from my personal experience in the lower SP 1-3 members of my team tend to be Revenant, regardless of objective, and the same is true (perhaps more in the range of 1-2) players in Archon & Netracell hunts. Now it's worth noting that a significant portion of these players may be alternate accounts of high level players, but the problem remains. Allow immortality for even very low XP players? Well it's difficult, as previously detailed, but Revenant is surely the most prominent problem.

Ima let your response speak for itself Nourish is available to all warframes

Ok byeee now.... thanks for contributing to this discussion with your "don't worry about it" response 🙄

I'm not even asking for a nerf and people are already losing their minds. I just want the people playing him to CONTRIBUTE. And they are fundamentally limited in that regard by his kit.

Right I'm just saying make it so Revenant contributes at least (although mesmer skin imo is a badly conceived ability but w/e). Wukong kinda had this same problem, but to a lesser extent. Changing Revenant to be at least more useful will make him... well... MORE USEFUL Like the above ^^ remains true. BUT if we make him useful at least the people playing him will contribute to the game modes rather than mostly being useless (whether they're afk-ing or actually trying = both kinda equal the same outcome). I wanted some real responses, not lame ones. Whenever people resort to "just play something else" or "just play a different game" you know you're onto something real lol. Prove me wrong actually, I challenge you to find a single post where this isn't true. These are the laziest "shut down" arguments around and they are all through these forums. How about addressing the real issues hmmmmm ????

So.... a lot of people play Revenant. Especially low MR people playing high content. And I'm kinda getting burned out on it. Here's why: Revenant allows low level (and low-skill) players to play high level content without contributing anything. Revenant himself does not have very many team skills. In fact, if you aren't running his augment, he doesn't contribute anything really. He provides no defense to objectives. His ability dps is typically not great (his ability dps is his 4th and that's it, so if a player hasn't built for that they do jack). Basically, he isn't killing anything or protecting anything, his only team benefit outside of an augment build is his mild cc with his thralls but..... Revenant is irritating to play with. This is for the above reasons but also, of course, because of his converting enemies that you are trying to kill. In some respects, this is even more irritating than either Nekros or Nyx, because in those cases you can't damage them - they have full ally status, whereas this is not the case with Revenant, which makes it not only frustrating for the team but frustrating for the Revenant player themselves as they need those thralls. Now I can't blame people for playing him, the masses will always gather around the lowest hanging fruit, and Revenant offers them an easy path to cheese content with. However, I submit that this is both unhealthy for the game and also unhealthy for the players themselves, as they are walking around on crutches rather than being contributing members. And yes, of course, there are lots of ways to cheese in WF. All these players could just as easily be playing Loki or Limbo or Vauban for example, which would be equally frustrating for the players tasked with actually doing everything. We can't force players who don't want to contribute to do so, not without reworking a significant number of things. So am I asking for a Revenant nerf? IDK. I think I'm asking for Revenant changes. Like I'm not necessarily pissed off that these low level players have immortality, but I am angry that they aren't contributing in any meaningful way at the same time. Maybe just give Revenant more team tools and more ways to be useful and less irritating, or else make a pass on mesmer for balance (because it is most probably not a healthy aspect, despite DE apparently thinking it's cute or something idk). I guess that sums it up.

My answer would probably be the Tenet Tetra. Never see other people using it but I find it to be a really solid gun (with a riven). Also the Gunsen Prime, I love the sound and performance and stance of these. Oh also the Keratinos - been using those a lot with Tennokai because I have a unicorn build on them. And this might be a little off-topic because this isn't stuff I like to use, but it's stuff I like and wish so much that I could use: Dera Vandal. I love the sound of this weapon so much. Hope it gets incarnon'd Alternox. What an awesome looking gun that does nothing Steflos. Another awesome looking gun that does nothing Buzlok. I love it, used it for a long time, but it just can't do SP well so I hardly ever pick it up anymore. Glaxion Vandal. Just can't quite deliver but idk I love it Battacor. I also love the look & concept of this gun. I've tried to make it sing. Hope it gets incarnon'd or buffed. Paracyst. Another awesome looking weapon that just can't compete anymore. Incarnon plz. Mutalist Quanta. Man I love having this thing rotating around. Dual Cestra. I've tried SO hard to get these things to perform and they just cannot, but I love them Ballistica Prime. What a freakin cool looking weapon. Hope it gets incarnon'd Ghoulsaw. I feel a little silly for investing so hard in this. But it's awesome and unique

So I got curious enough and decided to map out a full spread of what max and medium range mods would look like under our current scaling. A few notes: The same educated guessing used above were used here. While there is some uncertainty this should be very close to what these mods would actually look like with our current scaling. The main question marks are is DE using curves on any of these and the mod capacity scaling varies tremendously per type of mod. I double checked all these but errors are not impossible for sure (I caught several in the process - note that there is about a 2-5% uncertainty value for all of these numbers due to me not building hyper-detailed graphs - definitely shoulda in hindsight) Some stats were difficult to calculate because they involved extra steps. Calculating how range and strength compare for example - there is no direct comparison, so I had to first compare range to duration and then duration to strength, scaling as I went. Thus there is both a massive assumption that DE would not have a special ratio for that combination and also an extra space for errors on my part. The only other combination that requires two steps like this is range and efficiency. So take these 2 combinations with a lot of salt. The medium/middle mods were chosen based on the halfway point between the max and the base (i.e. Overextended and Reach) and the negative stat scaled respectively along with the mod capacity. Capacity is rounded to the closest whole integer Range is increased from the current mod cap of 90% (Overextended) to 99% (mostly for my sanity & curiosity). As a result the capacity also increased from 11 to 13. Note that Transient Continuity has replaced the current Transient Fortitude (moving from +55% to +66%). This was mostly for consistency's sake, however also note that the current Transient Fortitude has a mod capacity of 16 which I completely abandoned as it seemed out of whack with the strength mod capacity scaling, but it's certainly possible that all 3 of these Transient mods under strength would actually be 16 capacity not 11. Enjoy my fashion framing I guess 😀 (started to have to make some fast looks near the end - was running out of material) A few things I noticed: I don't think we'd actually want all of these. While most would be useful, some would be very niche and one or two would never be used. I think the middle mods tend to be much better & safer candidates for real use. The efficiency mods in particular are punishing in their drawbacks (due to how efficiency scales against all the other stats) and I think it might be much better to create streamline-adjacent mods instead (like archon mods; a +20-30% efficiency with a bonus attached). Things like Granum's Continuity would probably be useless for most everyone because of how those two stats interact on abilities. I don't think DE would want some of these. Overextended Expertise may be too strong in their eyes because of energy regeneration possibly over-correcting on this. Of course this is one of those extended combinations that they might want a special ratio for. Narrowminded Expertise is also problematic with it's -80% efficiency which is higher than Blind Rage's -60% efficiency (which I assume to be mod cap). This might make abilities so expensive that they can't even be cast or be otherwise oppressive. Also Blind Reach is probably too strong on frames that don't care about range. Some combinations brush up or go over the 100% limit, Narrow Minded Fortitude most notably at -120%. While I actually don't think there's too much harm in this because there are other mods to compensate, it is still potentially problematic (think Speedva). So when things get close to 100% or over any threshold we don't like for that stat, that would probably be the case to cap out that stat and then include a second detrimental stat to finish off the negative scaling. Efficiency middle mods are funny because they must fall between the mod capacity of Fleeting Expertise (11) and Streamline (9) - thus they must be 10 capacity, which in turn determines their strength rather precisely. All the others have a lot of room for where exactly their middle ground might fall both in capacity & percent but efficiency doesn't (unless the middle mods were to share the 9 capacity space). This is rather ironic to me because one of the main straws that led to this original post was frustration over a lack of efficiency mods in particular. Duration & Range are the two stats currently most direly in need of a middle mod.

Categorical Customization + Much Needed Stats, ala Ability Stats (why can't we see these?) Ability Buffs (every icon-related thing our abilities are doing for us) Enemy Debuffs (actually pretty rare outside of eximus but they happen) Weapon Buffs (arcanes mostly) Resistances (total resistance plz [not just Adaptation]) and total combined ARMOR (with DR% if possible) - (why can't we see this?) These would be the categories (except for armor which would be under health & shields). Then let us put these categories anywhere we like on the HUD (or nowhere if that's what we want). Like a movable box that autofills with icons. That way we can have the resistance over here, the enemy debuffs over here, the weapon stuff over here, and the ability stats over there. It'd still not be ideal: ideally we'd want something more robust for resistances especially (not jumbling them, but having each as an active or inactive icon so they are always in the same place) and probably buffs and debuffs too (although that'd be much harder / impossible to generalize), but it'd be a solid start. It's jumbled and cluttered and it'd be pleasant if it was efficient and clean instead.

Yeah I think these are fair points! Everytime new nodes get added to the starchart the amount of time to get to arbitrations increases and you need arbis to get really important mods. Clearing the Zariman & the Sanctum without galvanized is asking a lot and doesn't seem particularly good. After thinking about it I believe arbitrations should maybe be available as soon as you clear Sedna or possibly the Kuva Fortress. Not only do players need galvanized mods around then - they really need the endo too (not to mention Adaptation if for some reason they don't want to / can't buy it).

... this is such a dodge Arbitrary = random. Obviously not, things need to be carefully selected. This is exactly how this game works, in about a dozen different ways just off the top of my head. Things are tailored and tweaked all over the place. Even if this math is correct the logic still carries over into stuff like Cascadia Overcharge, Secondary Outburst & Conjuction Voltage. Don't tell me what games are for me and don't gaslight me. I'll let the record show who's being reasonable and who's being unreasonable. You don't seem to care about balance at all you only care about consistency. You haven't acknowledged a single counterpoint I've made and you've blatantly dodged multiple points. You're apparently convinced you're right about everything and nobody else can possibly have any understanding... and so having any kind of conversation with you is pointless - I'll exit here. Have a nice day and next time try to have an open mind.

You're entitled to your own opinion on him. Critical damage IS multiplicative damage. By increasing crit chance (and crit damage) you are multiplying damage. That's the entire structure of crit. Galvanized mods are also multipliers: multishot is a multiplier, and so is crit chance, and so is CO. Ok, I re-read your post and I misunderstood: you want to remove all stat sticks from the game and make them into exalteds, in which case, yes, they will definitely need number adjustments. You focus way too hard on inconsistencies, just saying. We MUST pick and choose. You CANNOT give Regulators merciless, not without gutting them first.. You just can't, not if you care about this game in the slightest. How do you not see this problem? Err... this makes me doubt whether you've seen what Atlas can actually do (or maybe you're just being difficult and refusing to admit that those numbers aren't potentially a problem). There's no need to devolve into personal attacks

Actually, ALL augments should be exilus... just saying.

oops quoted myself lol

How about we take a more reasonable approach. What would a reasonable buff for exalted's look like? Blood Rush? Out of the question imo. That is multiplicative damage and it will be completely out of control. Weeping Wounds? Hm, okay, that might be fine. Galvanized Mods? Absolutely not (this is a Mesa/Titania multiplier buff and they don't need it) Arcanes? Not for guns. No way. For melee only? It'll be too strong on Baruuk imo but other than him - yeah, these by themselves might be ok, I can see all other melee exalteds appreciating this without becoming oppressive. Base Stat increases? Your examples seem a little high to me but I think these by themselves would be ok (Khora does not need a buff, she's still right up there with the best) Separate combo timers that independently decay? I don't even think this is a buff it's more a QoL and I support it 100% regardless, the only argument against it is that DE is (rightfully) afraid people will never leave their exalted form. But I think that's a fairly weak argument compared to the peace of mind it would deliver, and I think there's a strong case that it will actually encourage more weapon swapping rather than the opposite (this change alone is probably all that's need to make Iron Staff feel good - nobody ever stays in it long enough to get to 12x and like all melee weapons that's where a good chunk of the power is) So basically I'm not saying none of these will work, I'm just saying pick one, a reasonable one, and avoid gun buffs entirely because that's Mesa/Titania. OH and one other thing I've seen thrown around is the idea to create exalted-only mods or exalted-weapon-specific mods (like an Iron Staff mod or a Diwata mod), this would be a good way to scale them independently of other melee/weapons and honestly I'd be on board for these solutions too as it seems pretty reasonable.

idk man this doesn't feel reasonable at all, it feels like your splitting word hairs to justify this. Like imagine if you pumped 200-300% str behind any good melee weapon, that'd be broken af, and all you seem to be asking for is the reverse. If you wanted that then at the very least you need to dampen them, debuff them in preparation for this supernova of power that would get dumped on them. You want to drop a nuke on an anthill when all you need is one stick of dynamite. All this is just massive overkill. It's a cool design idea that got more complicated than they probably intended. I actually quite like exalted weapons as a concept and honestly those warframes tend to be more interesting in the long-term imo. Landslide IS overpowered, the only reason it isn't on everyone's red alert is because it's single target, slow, not 'cool', kinda needs a niche setup, and it's on a sucky frame. Balance isn't about plateauing all weapons, it's about making sure they're all in the same ballpark, can compete, and yet still have an identity. Pushing exalted weapons into the next zip code isn't balance. And while Iron Staff is a little weaker than I'd like, I'd still put it in the top quarter of melee weapons. It just needs a little nudge, not a screaming demon freight train of buffs. Uh, have we seen that? I think we've seen that most have fallen into great use, and only a few have fallen into the ditch. It's much easier and more balanced to just drag the few in the ditch out. ......... giving Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Arcanes, Rivens & all the other tools of normal weapons to exalteds ... like.... Mesa, Baruuk, Excal, Titania ... these are all A-S tier warframes (and most precisely because of their current exalted/psuedo) and Wukong is just waiting for some reason to take over the meta again. Please explain how this will not send them all into the stratosphere. I just don't get it. They'll be halfway to Mars before the sound of the rocket has even faded. If they were all F tier warframes and/or their exalteds struggled to even get through the regular starchart - then okay, sure, let's buff the holy bejesus out of them. But they're not down there, they're are sitting at the top.

Yeah, psuedo-exalteds are funny creatures. I think they're much more likely to be rolled into full abilities than they are to become mod-able weapons, but I'm not so sure I'd touch them too much - a big chunk of the riven market is tied up into them too so there's that to consider. Mostly what I'd do is make them all work the same, but keep them in their weird spot. Right now they all work slightly differently it seems like, which means you need deep knowledge about the frame and how to precisely build for them, and this info can be hard to get. Khora is king of them, without a doubt, and Whipclaw absolutely does not need anymore help. And it was nerfed not all that long ago! And it still is ridiculously strong. Atlas... ok... look, he can do absolutely dumb damage - he definitely doesn't need buffs either, he just needs QoL imo, it's more that he's not a great frame to play than it is that his psuedo doesn't hit hard enough. I haven't gone deep enough into Gara stat stick builds to really speak about it - I mostly use hers in combination with her kit rather than as an actual DPS I also haven't used Ash intimately so I can't speak on his The two I can speak on - well, they're pretty OP and I'd be scared to buff them. (and just in case you guys don't have this epic thread already bookmarked [i think he keeps it updated], and also apparently razorflies count in this category, which i definitely cannot speak about in any detail):