CrownOfShadows

Well, this is not exactly true. It only spread elemental. Literally any fist weapon or dagger just off the top of my head. Was that really so hard? Right but again this is assuming the warframe doesn't need that arcane slot for any number of other things, and my previous point about helminth applies to this logic on subsumes too. Is it though? -30% attack speed and +2 range just can't compete with using Primed Reach (or Primed Fury) instead, unless you have a melee that cares zero % about how fast it attacks, and I can't think of a single melee weapon in the game that cares like that. Nobody would ever use a mod like that, that was my point earlier. The space is ultra-competitive.

Well I'm just coming from the opposite direction, from the top down, worst case scenarios not best case scenarios. Like giving super fragile frames good DR is probably a win across the board, you're right about glass cannons for the most part. But giving it to already powerful frames that don't have DR is the part that worried me. Like it would equalize the bottom tier upward (and basically not move most of the upper tier because so many of them already have native DR), but it might also make some frames near the top just a little too good. Like, off the top of my head, putting 90% DR on Hildryn, Wisp, Khora or everyone's favorite problem-child Saryn feels dangerous. 75% is probably enough of a hit that it won't break things though, it takes the top off enough of the curve. I mean Hildryn already barely takes damage as it is, and I'd just rather not make problems like that worse if we don't have to. Unfortunately, the future of WF is probably a (very boring) world where nobody ever dies anymore, at which point things like this will be moot.

Well, armor is fundamentally different than pure DR. DR stacks on top of armor and acts as a multiplier. In the helminth, there is only eclipse and null star in this category. They pretty much give armor out for free, there are so many options for it now, and it's definitely better than the average player gives it give it credit for - but still it's not as good as 'pure' DR. (yes technically armor is damage reduction, but the two work very differently) As for null star, it's good on paper, but as you detailed it has a lot of problems - it only kicks in on health, enemies take away your particles, and you have to have a duration build. Anyone who's tried slapping that on Inaros can testify that it feels like wet tissue paper. So eclipse is pretty much the only 'pure' DR option in the helminth, and now with it being constant and reliable it should be a solid survivability option even at 75%, but only experimenting will tell.

Good. That solves the other half of the problem.

You missed the point. The point is i can't afford to use those mods due to lack of space. Sure, there are lots of subsumes that can pull enemies in. But it actually doesn't address the problem either, because not every frame wants those subsumes and yet they still use melee. I shouldn't have to use a subsume for something there's a mod for. WTF This is actually your only solid point. This does help, unfortunately it only spreads status it doesn't increase the range of the raw damage. Melee Vortex is actually a better solution in this case, and does indeed solve some of this, unfortunately.... magnetic - major bummer & on 45% proc rotation, so still not quite the consistency I'm looking for even if I went magnetic. Omg dude, how about you use your imagination instead of sending me on an errand like that. I'm not asking for attack speed. I'm asking for range. Hm, yes and no. Like it will be a little bit of power creep, but it really depends on how it's implemented. Like in the case of corrupted mods there would be a big drawback associated with it, and in the case of split mods both stats are reduced rather than having one big stat. So it actually pushing the envelope? Well it depends on the exact numbers. Yeah, not a fan of regular reach, it just is not enough to be meaningful, but chill man it was just an example anyway. I mean if they want to have 1 or 1.5 range + another stat, fine, I'll take it, it's better than nothing, but if the other stat isn't really good to compensate for that shortcoming then I'd just be better off using Primed Reach instead and so that mod would be doa. It kinda needs to be balanced in context, both against the upper option as well as the lower one and the space constraints / mod competition.

Can we please get one or two new melee range mods? Specifically, ones that are split or corrupted. By split I mean something like +30% attack speed +2 range, or +25% critical damage +2 range, or better yet something with a little scaling on it (because I would have to sacrifice a gladiator mod or an acolyte mod or something for it, so it's gonna have to pull some weight to justify itself). I always want range - and some melee are absolutely brutal to play without it - but due to how many mods are required for melee to work there is never room - heck there's hardly even room for attack speed either and that takes precedence over range for me typically. Because we're not getting more mod space, hybridizing seems like the only way to get this now - unless you'd also entertain some melee arcanes that incorporate range (but that will be a hard sell vs the benefits of the other arcanes we already have).

Shield gating took a bit of a hit with the change, and for everyone building anything else DR is a pretty big deal. 90% might be "standard" but keep in mind that's only for warframes who have DR built directly into their kits already. There is no good helminth DR (up until now with this eclipse change) and I do believe that's been rather intentional for this very reason, so I would honestly be pretty surprised if they let 90% go through. That's doubtless why the current eclipse is precisely not at 90% but rather at 75%

The thing is, no other frame has immortality. Being lazy as Rhino, Nezha or Ivara is not the same as being lazy with Revenant.

I complain about the things that are problems. Revenant is a problem and he's growing. He's not actively ruining gameplay, sure, but he is most definitely a negative when abused. IDK what you're saying about support roles, I never even brought that up. You think because I want people to do something besides stand there that I want them to "support" me in some kind of traditional sense? Where did you get that from? What don't I understand about Revenant? I'm what now?? ------------- All you guys seem to be conveniently ignoring the central point: doing nothing is bad. Doing nothing while being immortal is extra bad. If it happens once in a blue moon, am I worried about it? Nah. Like if I jump into a mission right now and there's an afk Inaros, am I going to come here and make a post like this? Nope. Don't care. I can tolerate some bad apples. But when I go play an incursion and there's a Revenant, and when I go play Archon hunt and there's 2 Revenants, and when I go play Netracells there's another Revenant, and then I go play some random SP missions and there two Revenants, and then I jump in the Circuit and there's a Revenant - and none of them are doing anything besides enthrall some enemies and maybe some of them are shooting, sure, but maybe a lot of them aren't... yeah, I can only roll my eyes so many times before I have to come here and say: we have a problem boys. It's rapidly becoming systemic. ------ And ALSO, as I mentioned, I'm not even asking for a nerf and you guys are acting like the world is ending (and insulting me non-stop) - which tells me you are way too sensitive about Revenant for some reason. Chill, I'm just asking that he be given more ways to contribute as a frame. Why exactly are you fighting that??

Satin hasn't existed since the pre-Orokin era? Because we lost the silkworm population to the infestation of course. Alas, it was such a glorious fabric.

lol but it was one of the nicest fabrics

I do wish for more archwing expansion. Here's my thoughts: It feels detached from warframe. I disagree with this in the context of open worlds, where it feels very nicely integrated. In the rest of the game however, it is mostly missing. Yes it replaces our warframes and their builds, but I don't think that's bad really - it gives us reason to build out the archwing (alas it is very limited). Same for necramechs. Flying is clunky and is designed for a meta long past. Hm, again I don't find this to be the case in open worlds, where it feels smooth and natural and responsive. It is absolutely clunky in the archwing missions but.... is that not mostly a mission design & architecture problem? The one big exception being the long stagger when hitting something which is deeply annoying. Abilities on all but the Amesha and the invisibility + vacuum on Itzal do next to nothing. I agree with this completely, although i will go to bat for the shield ability on odonata which is pretty nice (oh and also the cold snap augment but that's part of the vacuum really). Projectiles ignore Rocket Science. I'll +1 your suggestion on this, seems like a fine improvement. Full Warframe Integration. I'm not entirely clear on what your suggesting here, it kinda sounds like you want to keep your warframe stats and put the archwing stats over them kinda like a shield (so you'd have 2 hp bars, 2 shield bars, 2 energy bars etc). I don't like this idea very much - mostly because your warframe cannot fly around independently of their archwing. Like if you're in an archwing mission, and your archwing dies - are you just going to float there? Toggling it on in Open World Maps / Landing in Archwing and Railjack. I'm also not too clear on what you mean by this. As for launching it mid-air, ah ha you already can. Re-balancing of Abilities to better reflect having the Warframe in the equation et al. Hmm I'd prefer to just dramatically expand the archwing arsenal rather than hybridize them with warframe mods. Parkour Integration while in Archwing. Very interesting idea, I support the idea of wall running or wall-sliding and wall-latching, that'd be cool as it would break up the flight and you could 'bounce' off of surfaces with ease by latching and jumping. Similar to above though I don't think I'd really want to hybridize their parkour stats with warframes, rather I'd prefer to create a archwing system that lets us customize the different aspects - like speed, how fast you dodge left/right, how far you blink - that way we have control over how it's actually handling. However, for stuff like wall running and wall latching - I can see using warframe stats for those as I'm imagining the warframe's legs would be doing the work (but these could also be archwing mods, like archwing exilus) Remove redundant forward roll animation and add movement speed scaling to other roll animations - The primed speed mod is a pretty noticeable boost Projectiles now take in to account Rocket Science and Open World anti-AW missiles are faster. Seems fine. I think archwing feels really good in open worlds and also pretty good in RJ, mostly they feel bad in their dedicated missions, and I think that besides a massive expansion of their systems and mods that the best thing to do for them would be to redesign that tile set completely so that it encourages and rewards fast flight rather than punishing it. Also a little more creativity when it comes to the mission designs wouldn't hurt, as many of them are basically just warframe missions in space (the same copy/paste approach that is currently hurting RJ). Another thing that really needs to happen for archwings is (yet another) archmelee pass, and adding another weapon type would be welcome too (like a secondary, but I'd be more creative with it than that - archwings, like necramechs - lend themselves to different armaments than the ninjas and could be more mech oriented (missiles, rockets, etc).

This is netracells haha - jk (but really - running, lots of running) I do think there's a good space for speed-dedicated missions, but I think it would only work if you enforced parity: like 4 Gauss all running like crazy would be super fun, but yeah you couldn't throw a Titania in there she'd dust them. If it's not a race really but just involves a lot of speed continuously that'd be good, and then you *might* be able to mix Gauss and Volt a bit. Gauss and Volt have slightly different environments where they're good too, so you could build the architecture with that in mind.

ty

Tell us you're a jerk looking to stab any random citizen without telling us.

Not sure where to ask this so starting here, but what is the standard for stuff like name-calling on the forums? Like if I call someone a spiteful old hag with the mind of a cow is that 'bad'? (I mean of course it's not nice but is it punishable) Asking for Satan.

Also please keep in mind that I am NOT actually asking for a nerf to Revenant! (I even stated this in the OP) I'm actually asking for Revenant buffs - give him tools to succeed. I just want to at least give underleveled players some way to help out instead of sitting there twiddling their thumbs waiting for the rest of us to finish the mission for them.

... lol... I meant find out if the devs said anything about changing the DR aspect of eclipse, which, as it turns out, IS pretty hard to find out...

I'm not saying someone playing Revenant can't contribute via their weapons. They definitely can. I have Revenant. I play Revenant. Am I a contributing member? Yessir. Why - because I have killer weapons to put on him. The issue is that most of the people I see playing Revenant don't have good weapons. The reason they don't is because they are lower MR and just don't have that level of investment yet, but Revenant allows them to be there still. Would they be there if they couldn't use Revenant? Depends on the player of course, but the point here is that in too many cases the answer to this is no. So you have a player sitting there who is immortal, who doesn't have good enough weapons to contribute meaningfully that way, and who can't contribute via their abilities (besides thralls, which as covered are more irritating than they are helpful). That's the good faith scenario. And then of course you have the players who are sitting there immortal who don't even bother shooting, and that's the bad faith scenario, and the really sucky part here is they are the same.

I see several comments in the workshop that seem to indicate it starts at 75% and scales with ability strength up to 90%..... but I can't find any actual dev comments that detail that, so I'm not sure. The current eclipse goes up to 95% on Mirage herself and up to 75% on subsume, so most likely 75% is the retained cap, in which case, disregard this post lol.

Well I certainly HOPE it's 75% DR, ha, let me see if I can find a hard reference...

Wasn't that the damage?

Not exactly. My entire outcry is that Revenant can out-survive anyone without doing anything for the team in return, much less having any appreciable downside or vulnerability of his own. If he was immortal but at a cost, or if he was immortal but did a lot for the team at the same time - ok that's fine, I don't think immortality is a great game mechanic but I can roll with that, at least there's a counterpoint. Now you can argue this against something like current Inaros, who also does nothing for the team. That's fair, but are there 2-3 Inarosi in your squad sitting there doing nothing? No. And the fundamental reason behind that is because they are not immortal - they (currently) have a drawback - they will die by just sitting there (in high content). So even though their (current) kit sucks and they are doing nothing for the team, they still must be active to avoid death (depending on level ofc, at lower levels they most certainly can afk, and so can pretty much any frame tbh). It's just that Revenant can sit there and do nothing and not be punished OR praised for it. He does nothing. and that's being abused. This is not really true. People put up with a lot of shenanigans in good spirits, but there's a point where it becomes not funny anymore. I submit Revenant has crossed that point. People DO care about their team's contributions, people DO care if their team is afk. The 'just use recruit chat' argument is just as much a dead horse as the 'just stop playing the game' 'just play solo' bs, plz don't ever use this on the forums again, it does nothing to address the actual issue, and it never has in the whole history of the forums, I'm so tired of it... honestly.

OK, so I'm probably way too late to the part on this one, DE has probably already decided and implemented everything, but as long as I'm ruffling feathers let's talk about Eclipse's DR. Forget about the damage aspect for a minute and just focus on the DR. 90% is too strong, end of story, imo. The only reason eclipse wasn't too strong before was because it was a dice roll (or flat out broken). YES, some frame - a lot of frames - will really appreciate this, there's no denying that. Slap this on Banshee, Loki... anyone, and their EHP goes through the roof instantly. They become massively survivable - which is not necessarily a bad thing exactly, a lot of frames struggle to keep up in that department and for this reason a lot of people have wanted a reliable helminth DR. Ok, great. BUT... let's think for a minute about what this will do to the already strong warframes. (Now I know what you're thinking... but.... but won't it just put all these frames on par with the frames that already have DR in their kits, like won't it make Banshee equivalent to Mirage? Well, yes and no, because each frame - I assume - was balanced around their individual kit and not around helminths. Was Banshee ever meant to have 90% DR? No. Why not though? Because her fragility is the balance for her strengths. Suddenly make her not fragile anymore - and she becomes too strong, there's no sacrifice). The same goes every monster frame. Slap 90% DR on Saryn? On Mesa? on Baruuk? On Gyre? On Protea? On any frame that already has DR?? I fear this will be a MASSIVE power creep for the ENTIRE roster, and I'm worried. There would be no downside. No tradeoff. Just toggle on DR and forget about everything. So... uh... too late to the party but... how about just 65%-70% DR on subsumed eclipse?

It's disgusting. But understandable. The masses are unfortunately a poor metric for fairness, they only want what's best for themselves... which is also understandable. (also we're only a few hours in haha, maybe some more seasoned minds will awake and offer their perspective in the hours to come, one can hope) I actually was unaware of this, ty, I'll look into it.