CrownOfShadows

Ok byeee now.... thanks for contributing to this discussion with your "don't worry about it" response 🙄

I'm not even asking for a nerf and people are already losing their minds. I just want the people playing him to CONTRIBUTE. And they are fundamentally limited in that regard by his kit.

Right I'm just saying make it so Revenant contributes at least (although mesmer skin imo is a badly conceived ability but w/e). Wukong kinda had this same problem, but to a lesser extent. Changing Revenant to be at least more useful will make him... well... MORE USEFUL Like the above ^^ remains true. BUT if we make him useful at least the people playing him will contribute to the game modes rather than mostly being useless (whether they're afk-ing or actually trying = both kinda equal the same outcome). I wanted some real responses, not lame ones. Whenever people resort to "just play something else" or "just play a different game" you know you're onto something real lol. Prove me wrong actually, I challenge you to find a single post where this isn't true. These are the laziest "shut down" arguments around and they are all through these forums. How about addressing the real issues hmmmmm ????

So.... a lot of people play Revenant. Especially low MR people playing high content. And I'm kinda getting burned out on it. Here's why: Revenant allows low level (and low-skill) players to play high level content without contributing anything. Revenant himself does not have very many team skills. In fact, if you aren't running his augment, he doesn't contribute anything really. He provides no defense to objectives. His ability dps is typically not great (his ability dps is his 4th and that's it, so if a player hasn't built for that they do jack). Basically, he isn't killing anything or protecting anything, his only team benefit outside of an augment build is his mild cc with his thralls but..... Revenant is irritating to play with. This is for the above reasons but also, of course, because of his converting enemies that you are trying to kill. In some respects, this is even more irritating than either Nekros or Nyx, because in those cases you can't damage them - they have full ally status, whereas this is not the case with Revenant, which makes it not only frustrating for the team but frustrating for the Revenant player themselves as they need those thralls. Now I can't blame people for playing him, the masses will always gather around the lowest hanging fruit, and Revenant offers them an easy path to cheese content with. However, I submit that this is both unhealthy for the game and also unhealthy for the players themselves, as they are walking around on crutches rather than being contributing members. And yes, of course, there are lots of ways to cheese in WF. All these players could just as easily be playing Loki or Limbo or Vauban for example, which would be equally frustrating for the players tasked with actually doing everything. We can't force players who don't want to contribute to do so, not without reworking a significant number of things. So am I asking for a Revenant nerf? IDK. I think I'm asking for Revenant changes. Like I'm not necessarily pissed off that these low level players have immortality, but I am angry that they aren't contributing in any meaningful way at the same time. Maybe just give Revenant more team tools and more ways to be useful and less irritating, or else make a pass on mesmer for balance (because it is most probably not a healthy aspect, despite DE apparently thinking it's cute or something idk). I guess that sums it up.

My answer would probably be the Tenet Tetra. Never see other people using it but I find it to be a really solid gun (with a riven). Also the Gunsen Prime, I love the sound and performance and stance of these. Oh also the Keratinos - been using those a lot with Tennokai because I have a unicorn build on them. And this might be a little off-topic because this isn't stuff I like to use, but it's stuff I like and wish so much that I could use: Dera Vandal. I love the sound of this weapon so much. Hope it gets incarnon'd Alternox. What an awesome looking gun that does nothing Steflos. Another awesome looking gun that does nothing Buzlok. I love it, used it for a long time, but it just can't do SP well so I hardly ever pick it up anymore. Glaxion Vandal. Just can't quite deliver but idk I love it Battacor. I also love the look & concept of this gun. I've tried to make it sing. Hope it gets incarnon'd or buffed. Paracyst. Another awesome looking weapon that just can't compete anymore. Incarnon plz. Mutalist Quanta. Man I love having this thing rotating around. Dual Cestra. I've tried SO hard to get these things to perform and they just cannot, but I love them Ballistica Prime. What a freakin cool looking weapon. Hope it gets incarnon'd Ghoulsaw. I feel a little silly for investing so hard in this. But it's awesome and unique

So I got curious enough and decided to map out a full spread of what max and medium range mods would look like under our current scaling. A few notes: The same educated guessing used above were used here. While there is some uncertainty this should be very close to what these mods would actually look like with our current scaling. The main question marks are is DE using curves on any of these and the mod capacity scaling varies tremendously per type of mod. I double checked all these but errors are not impossible for sure (I caught several in the process - note that there is about a 2-5% uncertainty value for all of these numbers due to me not building hyper-detailed graphs - definitely shoulda in hindsight) Some stats were difficult to calculate because they involved extra steps. Calculating how range and strength compare for example - there is no direct comparison, so I had to first compare range to duration and then duration to strength, scaling as I went. Thus there is both a massive assumption that DE would not have a special ratio for that combination and also an extra space for errors on my part. The only other combination that requires two steps like this is range and efficiency. So take these 2 combinations with a lot of salt. The medium/middle mods were chosen based on the halfway point between the max and the base (i.e. Overextended and Reach) and the negative stat scaled respectively along with the mod capacity. Capacity is rounded to the closest whole integer Range is increased from the current mod cap of 90% (Overextended) to 99% (mostly for my sanity & curiosity). As a result the capacity also increased from 11 to 13. Note that Transient Continuity has replaced the current Transient Fortitude (moving from +55% to +66%). This was mostly for consistency's sake, however also note that the current Transient Fortitude has a mod capacity of 16 which I completely abandoned as it seemed out of whack with the strength mod capacity scaling, but it's certainly possible that all 3 of these Transient mods under strength would actually be 16 capacity not 11. Enjoy my fashion framing I guess 😀 (started to have to make some fast looks near the end - was running out of material) A few things I noticed: I don't think we'd actually want all of these. While most would be useful, some would be very niche and one or two would never be used. I think the middle mods tend to be much better & safer candidates for real use. The efficiency mods in particular are punishing in their drawbacks (due to how efficiency scales against all the other stats) and I think it might be much better to create streamline-adjacent mods instead (like archon mods; a +20-30% efficiency with a bonus attached). Things like Granum's Continuity would probably be useless for most everyone because of how those two stats interact on abilities. I don't think DE would want some of these. Overextended Expertise may be too strong in their eyes because of energy regeneration possibly over-correcting on this. Of course this is one of those extended combinations that they might want a special ratio for. Narrowminded Expertise is also problematic with it's -80% efficiency which is higher than Blind Rage's -60% efficiency (which I assume to be mod cap). This might make abilities so expensive that they can't even be cast or be otherwise oppressive. Also Blind Reach is probably too strong on frames that don't care about range. Some combinations brush up or go over the 100% limit, Narrow Minded Fortitude most notably at -120%. While I actually don't think there's too much harm in this because there are other mods to compensate, it is still potentially problematic (think Speedva). So when things get close to 100% or over any threshold we don't like for that stat, that would probably be the case to cap out that stat and then include a second detrimental stat to finish off the negative scaling. Efficiency middle mods are funny because they must fall between the mod capacity of Fleeting Expertise (11) and Streamline (9) - thus they must be 10 capacity, which in turn determines their strength rather precisely. All the others have a lot of room for where exactly their middle ground might fall both in capacity & percent but efficiency doesn't (unless the middle mods were to share the 9 capacity space). This is rather ironic to me because one of the main straws that led to this original post was frustration over a lack of efficiency mods in particular. Duration & Range are the two stats currently most direly in need of a middle mod.

Categorical Customization + Much Needed Stats, ala Ability Stats (why can't we see these?) Ability Buffs (every icon-related thing our abilities are doing for us) Enemy Debuffs (actually pretty rare outside of eximus but they happen) Weapon Buffs (arcanes mostly) Resistances (total resistance plz [not just Adaptation]) and total combined ARMOR (with DR% if possible) - (why can't we see this?) These would be the categories (except for armor which would be under health & shields). Then let us put these categories anywhere we like on the HUD (or nowhere if that's what we want). Like a movable box that autofills with icons. That way we can have the resistance over here, the enemy debuffs over here, the weapon stuff over here, and the ability stats over there. It'd still not be ideal: ideally we'd want something more robust for resistances especially (not jumbling them, but having each as an active or inactive icon so they are always in the same place) and probably buffs and debuffs too (although that'd be much harder / impossible to generalize), but it'd be a solid start. It's jumbled and cluttered and it'd be pleasant if it was efficient and clean instead.

Yeah I think these are fair points! Everytime new nodes get added to the starchart the amount of time to get to arbitrations increases and you need arbis to get really important mods. Clearing the Zariman & the Sanctum without galvanized is asking a lot and doesn't seem particularly good. After thinking about it I believe arbitrations should maybe be available as soon as you clear Sedna or possibly the Kuva Fortress. Not only do players need galvanized mods around then - they really need the endo too (not to mention Adaptation if for some reason they don't want to / can't buy it).

... this is such a dodge Arbitrary = random. Obviously not, things need to be carefully selected. This is exactly how this game works, in about a dozen different ways just off the top of my head. Things are tailored and tweaked all over the place. Even if this math is correct the logic still carries over into stuff like Cascadia Overcharge, Secondary Outburst & Conjuction Voltage. Don't tell me what games are for me and don't gaslight me. I'll let the record show who's being reasonable and who's being unreasonable. You don't seem to care about balance at all you only care about consistency. You haven't acknowledged a single counterpoint I've made and you've blatantly dodged multiple points. You're apparently convinced you're right about everything and nobody else can possibly have any understanding... and so having any kind of conversation with you is pointless - I'll exit here. Have a nice day and next time try to have an open mind.

You're entitled to your own opinion on him. Critical damage IS multiplicative damage. By increasing crit chance (and crit damage) you are multiplying damage. That's the entire structure of crit. Galvanized mods are also multipliers: multishot is a multiplier, and so is crit chance, and so is CO. Ok, I re-read your post and I misunderstood: you want to remove all stat sticks from the game and make them into exalteds, in which case, yes, they will definitely need number adjustments. You focus way too hard on inconsistencies, just saying. We MUST pick and choose. You CANNOT give Regulators merciless, not without gutting them first.. You just can't, not if you care about this game in the slightest. How do you not see this problem? Err... this makes me doubt whether you've seen what Atlas can actually do (or maybe you're just being difficult and refusing to admit that those numbers aren't potentially a problem). There's no need to devolve into personal attacks

Actually, ALL augments should be exilus... just saying.

oops quoted myself lol

How about we take a more reasonable approach. What would a reasonable buff for exalted's look like? Blood Rush? Out of the question imo. That is multiplicative damage and it will be completely out of control. Weeping Wounds? Hm, okay, that might be fine. Galvanized Mods? Absolutely not (this is a Mesa/Titania multiplier buff and they don't need it) Arcanes? Not for guns. No way. For melee only? It'll be too strong on Baruuk imo but other than him - yeah, these by themselves might be ok, I can see all other melee exalteds appreciating this without becoming oppressive. Base Stat increases? Your examples seem a little high to me but I think these by themselves would be ok (Khora does not need a buff, she's still right up there with the best) Separate combo timers that independently decay? I don't even think this is a buff it's more a QoL and I support it 100% regardless, the only argument against it is that DE is (rightfully) afraid people will never leave their exalted form. But I think that's a fairly weak argument compared to the peace of mind it would deliver, and I think there's a strong case that it will actually encourage more weapon swapping rather than the opposite (this change alone is probably all that's need to make Iron Staff feel good - nobody ever stays in it long enough to get to 12x and like all melee weapons that's where a good chunk of the power is) So basically I'm not saying none of these will work, I'm just saying pick one, a reasonable one, and avoid gun buffs entirely because that's Mesa/Titania. OH and one other thing I've seen thrown around is the idea to create exalted-only mods or exalted-weapon-specific mods (like an Iron Staff mod or a Diwata mod), this would be a good way to scale them independently of other melee/weapons and honestly I'd be on board for these solutions too as it seems pretty reasonable.

idk man this doesn't feel reasonable at all, it feels like your splitting word hairs to justify this. Like imagine if you pumped 200-300% str behind any good melee weapon, that'd be broken af, and all you seem to be asking for is the reverse. If you wanted that then at the very least you need to dampen them, debuff them in preparation for this supernova of power that would get dumped on them. You want to drop a nuke on an anthill when all you need is one stick of dynamite. All this is just massive overkill. It's a cool design idea that got more complicated than they probably intended. I actually quite like exalted weapons as a concept and honestly those warframes tend to be more interesting in the long-term imo. Landslide IS overpowered, the only reason it isn't on everyone's red alert is because it's single target, slow, not 'cool', kinda needs a niche setup, and it's on a sucky frame. Balance isn't about plateauing all weapons, it's about making sure they're all in the same ballpark, can compete, and yet still have an identity. Pushing exalted weapons into the next zip code isn't balance. And while Iron Staff is a little weaker than I'd like, I'd still put it in the top quarter of melee weapons. It just needs a little nudge, not a screaming demon freight train of buffs. Uh, have we seen that? I think we've seen that most have fallen into great use, and only a few have fallen into the ditch. It's much easier and more balanced to just drag the few in the ditch out. ......... giving Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Arcanes, Rivens & all the other tools of normal weapons to exalteds ... like.... Mesa, Baruuk, Excal, Titania ... these are all A-S tier warframes (and most precisely because of their current exalted/psuedo) and Wukong is just waiting for some reason to take over the meta again. Please explain how this will not send them all into the stratosphere. I just don't get it. They'll be halfway to Mars before the sound of the rocket has even faded. If they were all F tier warframes and/or their exalteds struggled to even get through the regular starchart - then okay, sure, let's buff the holy bejesus out of them. But they're not down there, they're are sitting at the top.

Yeah, psuedo-exalteds are funny creatures. I think they're much more likely to be rolled into full abilities than they are to become mod-able weapons, but I'm not so sure I'd touch them too much - a big chunk of the riven market is tied up into them too so there's that to consider. Mostly what I'd do is make them all work the same, but keep them in their weird spot. Right now they all work slightly differently it seems like, which means you need deep knowledge about the frame and how to precisely build for them, and this info can be hard to get. Khora is king of them, without a doubt, and Whipclaw absolutely does not need anymore help. And it was nerfed not all that long ago! And it still is ridiculously strong. Atlas... ok... look, he can do absolutely dumb damage - he definitely doesn't need buffs either, he just needs QoL imo, it's more that he's not a great frame to play than it is that his psuedo doesn't hit hard enough. I haven't gone deep enough into Gara stat stick builds to really speak about it - I mostly use hers in combination with her kit rather than as an actual DPS I also haven't used Ash intimately so I can't speak on his The two I can speak on - well, they're pretty OP and I'd be scared to buff them. (and just in case you guys don't have this epic thread already bookmarked [i think he keeps it updated], and also apparently razorflies count in this category, which i definitely cannot speak about in any detail):

Sorry, we can definitely talk about those too - he kinda lumped both together

Mixing simulacrum and captura screnes seems pretty great to me, i do wish there was more than the ballroom.

Yeah no I agree, Circuit is a bad measuring stick for damage and survival, I was just saying they dominate so hard in there I feel like I shouldn't even use them. While Mesa does fall off once you get into enemy levels too high in regular content (hm idk somewhere over level 500) I'm pretty sure I could go all the way to level cap with Baruuk (not that that's a great measuring stick either - but he hits so hard and has so much DR it's crazy). Dumping multipliers into already insanely powerful weapons WILL make a big difference - it will push them into OMG HERE COMES THE NERF HAMMER territory. Right now they are in WE'RE WATCHING YOU territory. We tend to think DE doesn't care about balance but then the nerf hammer comes out and we're reminded that they don't want their game to be completely busted either. Like dropping a 10x multiplier on glaive prime would be insane wouldn't it? Why would we do that? And it would get nerfed immediately. That's exactly what would happen if we gave all these tools to exalted. (On Baruuk, use the slide attacks to build your combo, once you're at 12x the waves are sufficient to kill everything but eximus & gunners. The waves aren't useless, they just don't do anything but ragdoll enemies until they're juiced enough, and they actually prevent you from building combo by knocking enemies away, trust me it's a better way to play him, and even more satisfying than endlessly pushing waves over people. I'm speaking from a place of real experience on this one, I spent YEARS playing him relying on those waves and gladiator and negative combo, that stuff is ok, its definitely not bad, but to really feel the CLICK, the AHA, the WOW - slide attacks)

Ima chime in and agree 30% feels a bit too low. This feels like "we're changing back to multiplicative but accomplishing our design goals anyway by bringing down the multiplier" I'd actually recommend nerfing the DR side slightly in addition to bringing this back up a bit. Giving everyone constant 90% DR feels like game-breaking helminth, but something like 75% DR might be ok

Well, hm, idk it sounds like you may want to sit with some of them a bit longer. My Mesa and my Baruuk are both so strong that I don't even want to take them into the circuit anymore much less regular missions - they just destroy everything. I'm honestly shocked Elude got that augment - that feels like a mistake to me, Baruuk does not need more damage. And that's not 1/10th what Blood Rush and arcanes would do to him. I actually feel bad running my Mesa because my team doesn't have anything left to kill. Putting arcanes into peacemakers is just mind-blowing insanity, there's no way, not without massive nerfs to them first. And excal is not far behind these two, he just doesn't have the range they do. All of this does take heavy investment, and lots of build fiddling and theorycrafting and research, no denying that, but the payoff is worth it.

You can't compare exalted weapons to other abilities if you're wanting to give them all the same tools as weapons - at that point I'd say yeah - they can't have any power scaling then - they can't be abilities at that point they have to be weapons because that's what you're wanting them to be, and even if you are comparing them to abilities not all abilities are or should be equal (exalted's should be strong, yes, but they don't need to all be equally strong nor should they all wipe the map).... .....and "inconsistency" can certainly be irritating but it's hardly a good argument for dumping more multiplicative power into them. Like they're inconsistent - ok, and? Like that's just an organizational discomfort it doesn't actually address the power of these weapons. As long as they're performing well (which they are, except for the ones that need a QoL pass) then there's not really a problem except that we can't tack our shiny jewelry on them. (I agree Shadow Claws are definitely a bit clunky to use, but I think you're underrating Iron Staff a bit here, it's pretty good, and idk my Mesa has no trouble at all mowing through entire crowds in the SP although I am pretty insanely invested in her too)

For a long time I would've agreed about Serene Storm tbh, only in the last 4-5 months has it finally dawned on me how to play Baruuk correctly after years and years of thinking I was doing it right and that he just wasn't that impressive, but holy moly he is such a monster. Three keys: slide attacks. Don't rely on the waves or the actual fist hits, slide attacks are way more reliable for combo and do more damage. Primed Reach & Sacrificial Steel; absolutely essential - I dropped reach for a long time because I was relying on waves which don't benefit from it - that was a mistake. And try dropping Reactive Storm. I know that sounds crazy, it's a super super pretty number, but if you pay attention to what elements it's actually using on whom, and also if you think what is that number actually doing for you, you'll likely come to the same conclusion I did. Using an armor strip on him definitely is a good idea too though (I mean it's a good idea on everyone lol), I've mostly settled on pillage, but he shreds just fine without it - it's more for extra survival padding. Also running melee crit shards on him is a fantastic boost. By the time he's at 12x there's just nothing in the game that doesn't melt under him, you should be seeing high millions. Like if we actually get down into where exalted weapons really fall power-wise: Exalted Blade (Excalibur): Extremely strong, can compete at the highest level, does not need any help Peacemakers (Mesa): completely OP Serene Storm (Baruuk): Extremely strong, can compete at the highest level, does not need any help Shadow Claws (Sevagoth): Strong, but can struggle sometimes, could use a little help, better than most melees Iron Staff (Wukong): Quite strong, somewhere near the top but not as good as some melees Dex Pixia (Titania): Extremely strong, can out-class most weapons, does not need any help Diwata Prime (Titania): Very weak, but is limited by a lot of things external to its stats as well, desperately needs help Valkyr Prime Talons (Valkyr): Strong, limited mostly by the stance and the weak range imo, weaker than most melee, needs help Artemis Bow (Ivara): Only strong with hyper-dedicated niche builds, for regular use it is very weak, needs help Balefire (Hildryn): Abysmally bad despite having big numbers, needs cc & cd, needs better animation So out of all the exalted weapons, 6 are fine imo, and all the rest except Diwata just need a little push to bring them up to par. Fixing Valkyr's talons, Artemis Bow, & Balefire is a simple matter of adjustments - their numbers are mostly fine - they're just outdated in how they deliver that damage. Like by adding arcanes and acolyte mods, sure it would help a few things like Sevagoth and Valkyr, but it's not going to help Balefire really, nor will it help Artemis Bow that much - and at the same time it will skyrocket all the others that are fine so then we have to go back through and nerf everyone we just buffed. I think these requests are born much more out of a desire for modernization of old exalteds than a complaint about their actual power, or a desire for standardization of everything - people like things in neat boxes most of the time, myself included. I mean, yes, they feel limited in the modding screen, but in reality are they really that limited in power? I don't think so. What we need is QoL on them, not more power. More power is just going to break more things than it fixes and it's not going to even fix a lot of things anyway.

Well... I'd agree with all of this IF exalteds had zero power scaling. As it stands, even in their current state, most still out-perform their counterparts. So giving all this to them would just send them to the moon. There's not a melee in the game - not even glaive prime - that can destroy as fast as a properly built Serene Storm / Baruuk. Putting Blood Rush on that would be insanity. Like NO. Why would you do that? And you seem to be focused on melee here but Mesa also - you just CANNOT give that girl anything else. So I'll support this 100% if you reduce power scaling on exalted's to 0, otherwise, no way. A few things I do agree with regardless though: Rauta, and also other similar things like incarnon combo mechanics (like Innodem's) should work regardless Stance capacity is a real problem, yes Balefire needs serious help

.... hmmm interestingly Fleeting Expertise is kinda acting like a middle mod as far as it's numbers go - there just is no 99% efficiency mod like there is for the other stats (which makes total sense - that'd be crazy). But this means you can run Blind Rage and compensate for it with just one mod (assuming you only care about strength and efficiency - if you care about duration too then it's 3 mods because you have to use Primed Continuity to compensate for Fleeting Expertise's penalty). Basically efficiency is out of sync numerically compared to the other ability stats when it comes to mod scaling (because it mod-caps at 60% instead of 99%, but it's still compensating for the other's drawbacks as if it were 99% - like in theory, based on Fleeting Expertise's +60% value, it should be more like -30% duration as the drawback not -60%... so they're counting Fleeting Expertise as if it were a 99% mod when it penalizes duration but it's compensating for Blind Rage like a 60% mod... ... are duration and range balanced against each other fairly evenly (although not exactly because Overextended is 90% and 11 capacity not 99% and 16 capacity like the other 99% mods -- surely intentional[?]), while Strength and Efficiency are separately balanced against each other in their own little world? (with a random crossover between the two worlds being Transient Fortitude). Uh, so then if we wanted to scale say Strength against Range, therefore.... ....ermegawwwd.... ...alright I went down a bit of a rabbit hole: (I'm really tired, I'll have to double check this later, but it kinda blows my mind - no wonder it feels so wonky) UPDATE: seems correct

Ah this is a really great point, I didn't really think about that - I almost never partially upgrade mods but that kinda solves half of this problem I suppose. Like in that last example where I want +100 range I could use a half-ranked Blind Rage instead of Transient Fortitude. I suppose the only area where this wouldn't work is if you're trying to maximize something besides strength. Like when you're building for max str usually it's Transient Fortitude and Blind Rage together. OR I suppose it's also a problem if you just want more than +100% on any two related stats, such as range and duration. To get +100 range and +100 duration you have to use... Overextended, Narrowminded, and then Stretch + Augur Reach to bring the range back up. So it takes one more mod than it should because there is no middle mod.