Innocent_Flower
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Posts posted by Innocent_Flower
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This is genuinely the only 'solution' I've read that's worse than keeping things the way they are.
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You're looking it as a nerf. It's neither a nerf not buff; It is change.
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The vault is crueler.
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+1 Innocent and my point all along, well spoken.
Really? I'm not that good at writing. In real life you can just give the 'you're mistaken' look and people will correct themselves. On the forums you have to somehow make everything obvious (which I naturally skip over, because it seemed too obvious to need writing. My Grades in school essays were very inconsistent for this very reason, as were teacher opinions on my intelligence) or else people will ignore things/pick at holes that aren't really there. Plus I like a very messy 'fix it when you notice it' Which'd work if there was one multi-talented guy working on all the numbers; But DE isn't like that (I'd assume). Unlike more respected members of the forums (notionphil, Diabloursus etc) I don't want to take on one problem at a time; thus everything seems far stupider than it actually is, because there's so much of it that are semi-dependent on one-another. One item won't work without another changing, and many people like facehugger don't seem to think I know that.
The 'damage mods' Topic is extremely difficult to talk about because there are so many factors. So many ways of doing it. So many reasons to do it or to not fix it in a certain way. Trust me when I say: 'Damage mods need to change'. They do. Do you think removing/nerfing them will get rid of progression(s)? There are ways to do either without getting rid of progression(s).
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Personally I do not think they should nerf anything at all, if a weapon or frame is "OP" then the player can choose to nerf it themselves via removing mods, why do they need to dictate what others do?
The idea that people who have maxed and multipotatoed their kit to be saying nerf it for other people because mine is too OP now is one of the worst things in WF, that and those who do not have the item saying break it in jeolousy.
I spend time and resources maxing a weapon because it has potential only for someone else to say if I can enjoy the benefit of my work, there were a lot of good guns and kit that got trashed because a vocal percentage of the players didnt want others having the same fun they had before it was nerfed.
Take all the nerfs off all of the kit and let the individual decide what they want rather than have the big mouths make levelling pointless, lots of people took pride in their weapons but now all items have a short life expectancy and the game has become a race to enjoy something before it is taken away.
I have kept all the weapons and frames that I enjoyed making and paying for slots to be able to do it, I am wondering if the people who scream "NERF IT" are intentionally breaking the game because they are too cheap to buy slots.
1- that's essentialy the "don't like it, Don't use it" argument. Never has it been valid in the context of balance or a beta test.
2- I'm the OP, I have a mastery rank of 16, 300 confirmed taliban kills. I graduated at the top of my class in the SAS...
Really I am mastery rank 16 and I've been playing since u11, I have all the best things. I don't think being 'too cheap to buy slots' or that I'm one of those who 'have big mouths make leveling pointless' really comes into my point of view.
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Innocent, if you're unable to actually address a point, you should just admit it rather than making an appeal to absurdity. I mean, I've never been impressed with your skill to counter someone's argument and every time I've seen you try you've been crushed utterly, but this is even worse than usual.
I'm very fond that you seem to consider it a rivalry, but really; You were talking rubbish from the beginning.
"it's human nature too..." Gross over-generalization. Speak for yourself. Not to mention how stupid the maths were. "5% or 500% people will always choose more damage" Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure?
The player meta will always sniff out the most optimal build. The most optimal build will inevitably revolve around killing the most powerful enemies as quickly as possible.Again; Sweeping generalisation.
- What If I wanted to kill numerous weak enemies? (and didn't have a damage frame)
- What If I wanted to counter the weaknesses of a weapon rather than add to it's strengths
- What if there were utilities that helped with other things, like vamprisim or a fear proc?
You know what the new player meta will be? ROF and reload, both of which ultimately increase DPS. Remove those too? Ammo, which ultimately increases sustained DPS. Remove ammo capacity mods? Golly, what mods are left? Uh... Eagle Eye? Something that helps you hit distant targets, thus dealing more damage to them? :oStraws, Straws. At this point it doesn't matter. Can you make a better weapon than everyone else with an optimal build? Yes. Will the optimal build be so powerful that it's a must have and players can't choose otherwise? Absolutely not.
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There's no effective way to "rebalance" the system such that people won't chase damage in one sort or another. The reasons for this are because of human nature. Whether it's an extra 5% damage or an extra 500% damage, people will always choose to do more damage.
The hell are you talkin' bout? Do you think this is some kinda comedy routine? Can I play the straight man and say, in the most deadpan way Imaginable "Damage? are you sure you're not talking about sit-ups?"
I can't actually make that funny or grammatically correct. You need better material for this to work. Please stop posting... annoyingly worded falsities.
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What would you scale?
Accuracy? Reaction speed? You don't have much to change when you remove health, damage and armor ratings.
Maybe more enemies but where will the limit be? Also would it matter? 4 Excalibur spamming their ulti would just be ridiculous.
Number of enemies.
Unlock the abilities of enemies (No grenade, grenade, accurate grenades, special grenades on the basic lancer for instance)
Enemies increase the use of their abilities.
Unlock certain ai paterns that are more challenging.
Unlock new enemies.
Increase the ratio of elite/special enemies.
Reload speed.
Movement speed (slightly)
Spawn more often in dangerous combinations.
and the answer to that final nitpick would be: try to balance radial javelin. Nothing to do with serration; It's still a problem with or without.
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So currently sentinel weapons have the problem of:
1: Being terribly imbalanced in comparison to one another. Some of them outright suck, some of them are ok, and some are objectively better than another. For instance the Carrier's sweeper outclasses all other sentinel weapons in that it does high damage,has a good firerate, can fire often and actually kills enemies without you needing to give it time to do so. It even performs better than weapons meant to be a class above (Prime weapons and clantech, though the helios' weapon is mostly marred by it being Helios-only.)
Now currently there's only two tiers of sentinel weapons; Market sentinels (easy to obtain) and non-market sentinels (hard to obtain) If DE were to work under the assumption that deth rifle, laser rifle, sweeper and the burst rifle (on one tier) should be balanced to be equal to one another in worth. Similarly the stinger, deconstructor and prime laser rifle should be equal to one another in worth (and more to an extent more powerful than their lesser counterparts, but not in such a way that getting a T2 weapon invalidates all T1 weapons; Only it's own T1 counterpart. (getting primed deth machine rifle wouldn't invalidate the sweeper or lasers, only the original death rifle)
2: There isn't enough, which is odd, because sentinel weapons should be easy to make. They don't need a model or animations, they can borrow sounds and effects. I'd like to ask that we get packs of sentinel weapon blueprints.
(work under the assumption that powerful-sounding weapons don't fire often; also, when I mention the name of an already existing weapon, like the hek, I'm simplifying. don't think I mean that you strap a hek to a sentinel. By 'hek' I'd either mean a puncture-sweeper, or a sentinel shotgun with four shots. Also, explosive weapons have a 'minimum range' )
Ideas include :
Generic weapon pack(s)
(a few items that are mostly just current weapons with mild changes like fire-rate, clip size and damage types)
Explosive weapons pack
- mini rocket weapon.
- Mini-grenade weapon.
- Mini explosive flechete weapon.
Corpus weapon pack
- Supra-like weapon.
- mine osprey mines.- detron- weapon
Grineer weapon pack
- Miter
- Gorgon
- hek (puncture)
- Seeker mine
beam weapon pack
- A burst beam weapon
- a charged beam weapon. (railgun moa?)
- a continuous beam weapon. (All of these in no way invalidating the noble vaporize)
- A tractor beam, to slow someone down, like the temporal dreg. (might be a good idea for a new sentinel though)
Elemental weapons pack.
- A flamethrower.
- a toxin spray
- a cold spray
- an electric continuous weapon
Ninja pack.
-Boomerang/shuriken
-A whip.
-an arrow/bolt/dart weapon.
Bio-lab pack. (tier 2)
-Phage.
-Torid
-paracyst
Energy lab pack (t2)
Amprex
Anti-moa gun
oxium osprey gun.
Castanas
Chemical lab weapon pack (t2)
Napalm's weapon.
kohm
buzzlock
Nukor
Dragon weapon pack (t2)
Upgraded versions of other tenno weapons
I've used sentinels so long (and the only viable alternative in my mind is to not-have a sentinel. Sorry, Eternally Frozen kubrows) That I'd like to see them with new abilities, new interesting weapons. New crazy customizations.
3: sentinel ability augment mods/alternate ability cards please?
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This is the megathread? But the OP is so...
Check the numbers. I don't think that's the best way to do it.
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I know what DE Steve would say...
I'm totally, totally serious. Seriously.
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i think that rhino prime + soma p/boltor p is exactly the easy mode you talking about. no need to introduce any separate mode
Re balance that for the majority
Give easy mode to whiners.
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Power trippers are people too (sorta). Many of them are very fond of defending OP weapons or broken mechanics in order to make the game easier for them.
Why not give them their own separate mode, where they don't need to attack balancing proposals because they're always very powerful regardless. (or, Y'know, this could be something that new players could practice in)
- Game becomes very accessible.
- New players can try things.
- players can have access to a wide range of tilesets without needing skill. Alternatively older/better players get access to somewhat-challenging mid-game early tilesets.
- That portion of the community don't need to fanatically defend against every suggestion of progress/change. Feedback improves somewhat.
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MR 16 here.
I wouldn't want it. Balancing has enough problems as it is.
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You can't have scaling enemies and no damage mods. You just can't. As it breaks apart too quickly.
- Don't have enemies scale by getting better health and Armour then. Simple. They could scale in other ways.
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Misc issues:
Wouldn't it be better to use some kind of Ability Log for finding out what abilities are used? Polls aren't great.
Grabbing; Awesome, but with the current damage system (another reason to get rid of damage mods, WOO) implementing such would be a waste as players can instantly-kill everything with a full-auto assault rifle. Fix ballance/scaling first.
Ammo/Pickups.
Not currently a 'problem' But not a strength either.
Ammo restores are kinda broke. Weapons like the boar for example get half their ammo in one burst and then more ammo is wasted as the player is already full. The player then procedes to need another within the next three minutes.
Maybe if you added interesting utility mods to weapons (again, an issue of scaling and ballance) like energy vampire or something to make those shot drop more ammo, then you'd have interesting solutions to the problem.
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With great power comes great skill. (Fullmetal alchemist quote i know i am a nerd) To gain you must give something of equal or greater value.
Wouldn't use anime as a good example. One could just as easily quote from DBZ or Bleach.
*DE gives nikanas Bankai, and tenno begin doing pushups on Jupiter so that they become muscled enough to deflect bullets with their flesh*
*The game ends.*
Oh hey, I'm in hot-topics.
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So you're not gonna comment any point?
Like
Critical weapons?
Can a level 1 weapon deal with T4 content now that we have no damage mods? If we have damage mods what makes you think they wouldn't be mandatory?
How powerful should the skills be?
Would they always be powerful?
What about progression?
For me the obvious answers is, everything would break.
- Rebalance crit weapons. Plus; Will the crits be so bad were straight damage mods taken?
- Probably not, maybe yes; It'd be something extremely challenging; Like playing a game on impossible difficulty. You'd be able to increase how much damage a weapon does, but not by a huge amount, and through method's that aren't just +base damage. You also have to keep in mind that some weapons are just flat-out better than others.
- It's only really damage skills that get affected; This'd probably be a good thing actually; Damage skills currently don't scale. With such a change damage abilities wouldn't need to scale. They'd be easier to ballance (get your ember out!)
- (can't tell if that's an extension of a question or a question on it's own)
- Progression is currently a number based system where the player does more numbers to an enemy with higher numbers (though occasionaly a player does very high numbers to an enemy with very low numbers because scaling is fubar; therin lies the problem) If progression was about getting more mods that improve or add new mechanics to a weapon (without causing instant-death) then players who have progressed could play alongside players who haven't without being OP but still being much more awesome.
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Don't touch damage mods! You leveling up weapons to 30 for more mod slots available, if this is not enough you put forma in it. All game and your set ups are based on mods. What is wrong with give them boost with mods. If you thinking that we don't need them then maby DE's should remove strenght mods from warfeames as well? Why you need them if you don't need more power on weapons? Warframes are OP not the toys.
Prime serration will not brake anything in the game. However it should bs locked to buy, trade on market. And it should be available from trader at mr15 minimum. Deserve to get this, newbes will nit use OP for normal missions. And if some of you think it would be like "OMG it isOP in game, balance we need" and that kind of your personal thougs simply DON'T BUY IT, DON'T USE IT just FORGET ABOUT THIS and let people who need this your TO MUCH OP use it!!
How simple is that???
I assume this is Ironic?
Why don't most advocates of keeping serration make sensible arguments?
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Likely not a popular opinion, but the mod sets should strive to be more like the Archwing ones.
Ah, Whilst I liked the weakened serration and multishot, i thought the 'elemental mods in space' aspect to be totally silly (and those modifiers are huge too) Archwing could have done with more utility mods. The +ammo capacity mod for example was actually good... but weapons already had large ammo pools so it still isn't needed.
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I was planning on getting the next prime access pack (assuming trinity or volt). I would outright refuse if the cosmetics were something as marginalized as the kubrow.
I would love this, but first they need to drop DNA stabilizers as a thing and make ordis do the kubrow upkeep. Also remove or decrease the puppy defroster.
Small possibility of not auto-refusing. But no 'decreasing'. Outright remove. Don't ask for half measures.
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Now let's be clear; I'm not against the idea. I'm not against you. I'm just saying doing this would require a huge amount of rebalancing and implementing the change would be a total mess. It would probably take a very long time to finesse into perfection.
I welcome the apocalypse with open arms.
Nah, Seriously. Of course it will be a mess. DE will make several oversights and they won't fix all of them within a good amount of time (based on past experience. We still haven't got those base status chance mods buffed) But it's ultimately a change that will have great benefits in the long term.
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Sigh.... you can not... just give... every lvl 30 weapon.. a built in... 165% damage bonus....
LEVELING UP DMG CARDS IS PART OF THE PROGRESSION
Locking high dmg weapons behind mastery rank is a NO... MR = PLAT
So unless someone wants advocating a much longer 1-max lvl for weapons serration should probably stay
see, that's a somewhat valid concern (written extremely poorly, did you have to do it that way?) that someone would get from reading the opinions of others. Many players think that should serration be removed it should be tied to the weapon (it shouldn't, you wouldn't be able to scale down that damage for lower level planets,unless sliders were to be made, ) But now i suppose Leveling ALL the cards would be part of the progression.
No one's forcing you have serration on your weapon, that's your choice. Sure, you'll be missing damage but still, that's your choice
Child logic. No one forces frontline soldiers to have hands, but it's much easier to go to war with hands.
I vote for increase dmg % for only one reason, efficiency.
We have too many grind and RNG involved already, efficiency is a must,and I feel fun for overpowering enemy, not the other way around.
I got a daily routine of 24/7 data center support job which I can't really play much, so efficiency is what I vote, and increase secretion dmg% is the only option to me.
Other options include
- Asking for easymode.
- getting the super-gun with a min-max of mods (min-max builds being more powerful than non-min-maxed builds, but not so much that players feeling like there's only that way to do things). You should have cores and credits remaining from the removal.
- play starter planets.
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I'd also like to point out that reducing enemy armour/hp to make up for the loss of damage mods would result in power spam becoming much more prevalent.
I would rather not have the game shift to 24/7 power spam
Or, y'know, they could have a crack at balancing those too.
There Are Multiple Ways To Change Damage Mods.
in General
Posted · Edited by Innocent_Flower
So Listed a few examples of ways that damage mods could be changed. Please converse about which ones you like/dislike, and try to see it from a perspective that isn't entirely your own. I've tried (hopefully succeeded) in keeping my reasoning objective (does it make the game better for the majority of players, or more attractive to new/retired players, and sometimes just making the rest of things easier for DE)
*corrupted damage mods and multishot are changed, not removed. For everything with a * by.
Method 0: Keep things as they are.
Advantages
- It's easy for DE to do so, we're not likely to get an unstable period of balancing and re-balancing.
- Mods like serration and hornet strike are a clear and simple indicator of progression. (pressure point and point blank really aren't though. they're easy to max)
Disadvantages
- False choice. We have eight mod slots, but two of them will always go to +damage and +multishot.
- The current mod system for weapons is entirely about increasing your damage massively. With a few exceptions, the game pushes you towards just adding +damage per-shot mods rather than genuinely interesting weapon-changing ones.
- The powergap is just too high, and this is bad for players, because shooting an enemy, no matter the skill you have, can be entirely futile depending on levels and mods (a very bad game mechanic). On the other-hand;Many players of high levels often need to cripple themselves to enjoy a play on middle/lower level games (not fun)
- The powergap is just too damn high, and this affects the ability of DE' development. The damage scales so wildly that DE have either have no ability to,or have no will to; add interesting non-dps mods, update unused mods, fine-tune enemies, create bosses without a BS invulnerability mechanic, or improve enemy AI.
Method 0.5
Keep damage mods the same, instead, change multishot and elemental mods.
Method 1: Remove.
Remove damage mods*. Refund credits, cores and ducats.
Re-balance enemies accordingly (extensively)
Advantages
- Extra slot for customization.
- Helps balance/Helps reduce the powergap (Without deleting the powergap)
- Easier to balance PVP from.
Disadvantages
-Needs a lot of other mods to be changed in order for this to work. Sense of progression can be kept; But only through painstaking re-balancing. (I like this one best. Game could use some extensive re-balancing)
Method 2: Make it Innate.
Remove damage mods, refund the credits/cores/ducats.
Have weapons increase damage as they level up, in the same scale as serration (165% at rank 30)
Advantages
Extra slot for customization
Disadvantages
-Only tackles power scaling excess if other mods surrounding serration (multishot, elements etc) are changed. If not It'd probably just mean another slot to stack damage on.
- Unless the innate serration is capped for each mission, Players would have the problem of lesser control in how much damage they do on lower level missions
- Would encourage players to do xp farms/exploits.
Method 3: Close alternatives (notionphil's thing)
Add more alternatives to damage mods/multishot (serration with damage, serration with slightly less damage and a bonus against X, Serration with slightly less damage and a bonus with Y)
Advantages:
Whilst you don't get those modslots back, you do get slightly more choice
Doesn't require a period of turbulent change.
DE don't need to refund and cores (and ducats)... Good for them?
Disadvantages:
This is the only change that'd be worse for your credits/cores.
Unless elemental/physical mods/corrupted mods are changed: every disadvantage listed in method 0 still applies.
Method 4: Nerf
Nerf serration and co to the point where it's not an always-best mod. (also; *, as additional mods to be used as well as)
Method 4.5: Nerf and alternatives.
Nerf serration and co. to the point where it's not an always-best mod. Add several alternatives that you can only use instead-of ( some out of the vault/nightmare) That are either more powerful with a notable downside, or weaker with a second stat.
Advantages
- Players can keep their damage mods.
- the 'if you don't like it, don't use it' argument becomes almost close to being valid, as both mods would be genuinely optional on high level missions
- Tackles power scaling.
Disadvantages
Tough to get that balance right. (but it's doable, don't post that it isn't)
Expensive for players (cores/credits)
(edit: how do I get colours? I want colours! Always forget how to do it on this forum)