Suggestions to fix "Nerf Nukers VS. Put your own group together by fixing each mission type

[Klokwerkaos]

The primary concern I'm addressing with this thread is the problem of mixing OP gamers with newbie gamers that result in the 1 man army issue, where one person does all the content and the newbies players get frustrated because they can't do anything and really have "no way to play".  The way I'm proposing to solve this is by adding additional engagement simply by tweaking some things that are already there.  Constructive feedback is appreciated.

Arena: this tends to work pretty well, but I'd suggest offering more tiles here to give some reprieve from monotony for endo grind.  Introducing a mode where there is a phorid running around killing everything might also make this more exciting (especially if you don't get kill counts or rewards from enemies it kills, thereby making it a priority to aggro and kill the phorrid while the enemy chops at you up while you are otherwise preoccupied with the phorrid (3 way faction stuff is always more interesting).

Assassination:  These tend to be fine for fast runs as sortie fills in for if people would like some level of challenges here.  Overall though I would suggest adding that no boss can spawn until all players are present (like lephantis) but this isn't exactly true for stuff like phorrid and probably should be.

Assault: I would add a 4th key to this to allow that every player can have a chance to contribute here.

Capture: Each person in squad has a unique capture target not marked for other players (though once the target is down, anyone can capture after 3 sec).  Instead of having a linear map, spread out the map in different directions (ie having players start from a branched or central point).  Players can still use buff frames to assist their friends here, but it will be less efficient than if everyone goes after and takes down their own target that is not next to anyone else's target.  Changing the map like this means that each person has a job to do, and puts them on a slightly separate path, but still allows players to coordinate and work together if they should need to.

Defection: this mode would benefit from having 2 separate groups spawn at once for teams of 4, this would first, cut down on how obscenely long these missions are, but also encourage teamwork by coordinating and splitting up the teams.  This already happens to some extent on the last rotation, simply adding it in earlier and upping the requirement of saved squads by 2 and maybe upping death forgiveness by 3 would be a way to make players have to work some on these things.  This way even if someone can nuke everything they can't realistically operate the healing pods at the same time, giving the second person still a way to contribute, and 2 teams of refugees means 2 teams of 2 for 4 man teams.

Defense:  for four man teams, drop out 4 pods/terminals a good distance from the objective that falls outside typical AoE range.  Slow the recharge speed of shields of the objective by 80%.  Each time a pod is activated by a player by pressing x it offers +20% to shield recharge speed and remains active for 10 sec, so, this way players have a secondary activity, this not only introduces more strategy, but it helps ensure one person doesn't overly carry the defense.  Additionally alert all enemies upon spawn once enemies are level 20.  I don't recommend decreasing spawn distance as we don't want players over looting, but alerting them right away may help, also since grineer have 15% slower time to engage based on level design, decrease their spawn from 52m to 48m.  It's a small change but it will make a difference.

Excavation: This mode is actually pretty good as is.  The main problem is that it's made obsolete by ESO rewards with exception to the notion of cryotic, but after sibbear and occassionally needing cryotic for dojo deco or a special key for a boss, this is really obsolete.  providing a terminal switch however, might make this better for player engagement.  Activate a mini game similar to hacking a corpus console on each excavator by pressing x, the player is helpless while they do this (though possibly invisible) just like for hacking.  If they fail the mini game they damage the extractor, but if they succeed they shave off 4 seconds on the timer by operating the excavator at greater efficiency, this activity can be repeated.  This also doesn't reduce the power cost, meaning, it's bonus time shaved off, you can techically use less power to fill each one if you have someone hacking(operating) the whole time.  What this does is it potentially offers a way to get the rewards faster at the cost of a player not defending or getting energy.  It's optional though, so it creates a situation where if your team is that good, you can benefit, but if they aren't it can cost you more time as you have to burn through more extractors to get the job done.

Exterminate: very similar issues to capture and similar solutions.  Give every player a unique minimum number of things they need to kill, spread the map out in different directions, that way when saryn/equinox/volt runs off in that direction nuking the planet, you go the other way and stealth your way through with a baza and daggers... or if you prefer, stay with your team mates and buff/coordinate.  Each player has a minimum they must kill but this also doesn't add up to the total needed kills, so extra kills help to keep everyone busy achieving the objective while you're off stealth killing unhampered by a nuker coming in and destroying everything.

Free Roam: It's hard to talk about free roam because it basically is a bunch of other mission types.  For the bounties that correllate, simply apply the matching notes from other instances.

Hijack:  Decrease overall speed by 30%, however, each person contributing to the drain past the first increases speed by +10%.  This incorporates more strategy of "should I increase overall speed or clear ahead?"  It makes each person in the team more important because their choices can affect how the mission plays out without necessarily creating an automatic pass/fail situation for the team.

Infested Salvage: One of these boards (the relatively flat one) has really bad spawns sometimes, where almost all of the enemies come from node B, and if you have a nuker there, it makes the mission boring for everyone.  Make spawning more prevalent in the other areas.  Overall though this is a pretty well designed level and I wish there was more than one node of it, maybe add another that is lower level and offers mutagen samples and a higher one that has a low chance for a mutagen mass/nuerodes.  Having one as an additional node on the orokin derelict (with a new map maybe?) might make perfect sense.

Index: John Prodman needs a serious buff.  Index in general is pretty fine.

Interception: Pretty good design over all, everyone has a mission to do but is close enough to help everyone else.  I would suggest allowing a "light weight boss" to spawn each fifth wave, something like sergeant type or similar.

Kuva Surival: Extra Kuva catalyststs can be inserted to reinforce the siphon by adding +10% to health and armor, though their spawn rate is slightly decreased.  This allows endless players who want to go more than 20 min to actually have a chance at not having their siphon one shotted if everyone carries catalysts with them as they drop over time.

Mobile Defense: To make this awesome, if you have 4 players, give two data masses to insert, allow double spawn rate if both are activated, this allows to complete the mission faster if they split, but also allows to do one at a time for safety, require the last one to have both data masses inserted to start.

Pursuit: Create two pursuit objects with 4 players, make the second one easier to manage, but they both go in different directions.

Rescue: 4 man team has 2 prisons at opposite sides of the complex (A and B) both have to be rescued.  Again, can be done together as a team of 4, or 1:3 or 2:2.

Rush: pretty good but I'd recommend the following... add a hackable terminal that can add a tractor beam for 10 seconds to a single ship, slowing it by 20%, thereby taking one person out of the fight for a little extra time.

Sabotage: 2 sabotage targets for the ones you shoot, opposite ends of the board for 4 man teams. for the ones you pull 2 plugs on, add a third plug to pull for 4 man teams.

Spy: when you have a 4 man at least one guy is always leeching, usually because he doesn't know the spy mission.  That said, add a stealth kill requirement if there is a 4th man.  Add a no detection bonus of two types: 1) you are not detected the whole mission, 2) nobody on the team is detected the whole mission.

Syndicate Medallion Missions: (unlocked after completing sacrifice) Opt in option to select mission type where extraction cannot happen until all medallions are found by all players.

Survival:  You alert they enemy once you come in, so they are always alerted from spawning.  Decrease spawn distance slightly for grineer tile sets like on defense suggestion.

Sanctuary Onslaught: Rename ESO to ASO (advanced sanctuary onslaught) and create a new ELITE sanctuary onslaught with the following changes:

New ESO starts round 1 at power level of current ESO at round 21; unlocked after you succeed at 16 rounds of ASO (ie, reach level 17).

All leveled items must be level 30 to enter and have had their capacity doubled with a potato.  You must have something slotted in both arcane slots.  You must have a primary, secondary, melee, pet and pet weapon.

Chance to have 2 environmental effects, always has at least one environmental effect, can possibly substitute nightmare effects also.

There is no focus reward.

In this mode Braton and Lato vandal parts are replaced with other BPs (4 parts each) for riven keys (4 types, melee, rifle, shotgun, pistol)  Each requires brilliant eidolon shards to build (or some equally difficult to farm object from venus bosses) and a fully built key allows you to unlock a riven that you meet the MR requirement for and the fully built keys and their BPs are NOT trade-able but can be bought in the market for a ridiculous amount of plat (assume something like 3x the current prices of a veiled riven of that type so like 75p for a pistol riven key).  This does two things:  it helps players have an option to bypass near impossible riven challenges while making DE some plat (and thereby plat sales while keeping with their pay to skip model), and it also gives the elite players a way to skip an annoying endgame chore to unlock a riven once in a while.

Going 20 rounds gets you an elite aux cosmetic, 30 rounds a syandana cosmetic, 50 rounds gets you an armor set, all unique to the challenge mode (ie, not released elsewhere except for maybe a special event down the line) and pretty cool looking.  

The whole purpose of this is to give players that insist on min/maxing to death something to do rather than stomp content at low levels, and also gives them satisfaction for having a place to actually use those min max builds to full effect while having a challenge.  That said, this will still be cheesed by the 4 man nuke trin situation (or whatever the next flavor of the week is), but I don't think that's a bad situation since it requires a solid 4 man team just like this challenge does.  And of course:  MAKE SURE THERE IS A WEEKLY LEADERBOARD FOR THIS!!!

Also put cosmetics on 6 month life span.  Cycle in New one every six months.  Allow to be exclusive for 1 year, then sell that bundle for plat.

A note about Archwing: Those flight controls need to be a little smoother, at least give as a propulsion stabilizer mod that does this if nothing else.

A note about PVP: This just needs attention in general, extensive which I'll probably cover in another post.

Additional Enemy types: (EDITED IN)

Much like nullifiers help deal with warframe powers, having enemies that have some kind of lore reason to be weak to single point attacks, but resistant/immune to AoE attacks would also help prevent total board clearing by some frames by forcing them to engage, or forcing the rest of the team to engage those enemies.

In Closing:

That said, that's a pretty in depth way I think we can fix a lot of the issues with the game currently while mostly reusing stuff that's already there to make it have more ways to achieve (ie strategy) and thereby offer more paths of engagement for more players, and thereby eliminating a lot of the problem with power disparity by giving everyone a unique possible additional job they can choose to use or not.  Each player having something to do and not being forced to play next to nukers to achieve an objective, but still giving players the option to if they are a weaker team will increase overall cohesion I think.  The ESO thing is also just a way to give players with ultra min/max rivens/arcanes/builds/load outs something to actually use it on and a reward that is relatively benign for them (since if they are playing at those levels they can already unlock a riven, but this gives them a nice little way to skip what is otherwise a small task for them, while restricting access to this feature to players that aren't at that level unless they want to pay plat directly to DE for the privilege while they still have the option of unlocking it themselves for free) or is purely cosmetic.

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Klokwerkaos
idea added to stimulate conversation sourced from thread.

[peterc3]

3 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Defense:  for four man teams, drop out 4 pods/terminals a good distance from the objective that falls outside typical AoE range.  Slow the recharge speed of shields of the objective by 80%.  Each time a pod is activated by a player by pressing x it offers +20% to shield recharge speed and remains active for 10 sec, so, this way players have a secondary activity, this not only introduces more strategy, but it helps ensure one person doesn't overly carry the defense.  Additionally alert all enemies upon spawn once enemies are level 20.  I don't recommend decreasing spawn distance as we don't want players over looting, but alerting them right away may help, also since grineer have 15% slower time to engage based on level design, decrease their spawn from 52m to 48m.  It's a small change but it will make a difference.

The incentive should be to play the objective, not be literally anywhere but the objective.

5 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Sanctuary Onslaught: Rename ESO to ASO (advanced sanctuary onslaught) and create a new ELITE sanctuary onslaught with the following changes:

New ESO starts round 1 at power level of current ESO at round 21; unlocked after you succeed at 16 rounds of ASO (ie, reach level 17).

All leveled items must be level 30 to enter and have had their capacity doubled with a potato.  You must have something slotted in both arcane slots.  You must have a primary, secondary, melee, pet and pet weapon.

Chance to have 2 environmental effects, always has at least one environmental effect, can possibly substitute nightmare effects also.

There is no focus reward.

In this mode Braton and Lato vandal parts are replaced with other BPs (4 parts each) for riven keys (4 types, melee, rifle, shotgun, pistol)  Each requires brilliant eidolon shards to build (or some equally difficult to farm object from venus bosses) and a fully built key allows you to unlock a riven that you meet the MR requirement for and the fully built keys and their BPs are NOT trade-able but can be bought in the market for a ridiculous amount of plat (assume something like 3x the current prices of a veiled riven of that type so like 75p for a pistol riven key).  This does two things:  it helps players have an option to bypass near impossible riven challenges while making DE some plat (and thereby plat sales while keeping with their pay to skip model), and it also gives the elite players a way to skip an annoying endgame chore to unlock a riven once in a while.

Going 20 rounds gets you an elite aux cosmetic, 30 rounds a syandana cosmetic, 50 rounds gets you an armor set, all unique to the challenge mode (ie, not released elsewhere except for maybe a special event down the line) and pretty cool looking.  

The whole purpose of this is to give players that insist on min/maxing to death something to do rather than stomp content at low levels, and also gives them satisfaction for having a place to actually use those min max builds to full effect while having a challenge.  That said, this will still be cheesed by the 4 man nuke trin situation, but I don't think that's a bad situation since it requires a solid 4 man team just like this challenge does.

A whole lot going on here.

Leveled gear, sure. Potatoed is questionable. Arcane requirement is inane.

No focus gains, but something to bypass Riven challenges. This is DoA. Nobody will put up with all that to unlock Rivens.

"Cool looking" is very subjective. You've highlighted that a specific team comp will have no challenge.

[Jackviator]

5 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

For Exterminate... Give every player a unique minimum number of things they need to kill,

I can only see this going poorly for people who don't have adequate weapons for that zone (Due to them being taxied, leveling mastery fodder, or whatever). It'd also be prone to problems if people AFK, and an easy way to troll if people just loaded in and just didn't do anything, or prevented people from killing anything by taking up all the kills for themselves. Additionally, I can see a meta being formed around killing things as fast as possible, and people getting harassed if they don't go for the meta due to them "slowing down everyone else."

Other than that, I like most of the ideas on this list.

[Klokwerkaos]

8 hours ago, peterc3 said:

The incentive should be to play the objective, not be literally anywhere but the objective.

Why?  That provides additional defensive strategy while giving players the option to do something rather than sit while one person carries.  I don't see why your idea is better.

 

8 hours ago, peterc3 said:

No focus gains, but something to bypass Riven challenges. This is DoA. Nobody will put up with all that to unlock Rivens.

I think you're missing the point.  The point isn't the rewards, there are rewards and there needs to be, rewards that are nice, but they don't increase your overall power level necessarily (they could if you get a good riven, but that's just as likely if you unlock it the old fashioned way), it just saves you some time once in a while and maybe gives you a cool cosmetic if you figure out how to break the game entirely 🙂

I don't think you understand who and why someone would want to play this mode, but I assure you there are many power gamers (myself included) that do, and it would help filter them away from stomping the star chart into the ground with a new level of challenge with rewards that are nice, but don't make them dramatically more powerful.  It's intended to be ridiculously gated so that way those players can have something to do.  ESO in it's current form is something many of us can easily carry a 4 man team 8 or even 16 rounds as a one man army, it's not satisfying as an endgame player.  This is for those people and you can't even unlock it till you go 16 rounds in ASO, so I'm not sure why you think this is supposed to be accessible?  It's not.  That's kind of the point.  It's an ELITE game mode for elite players to use elite builds and thereby give them something to do instead of dominate an entire mission so that anyone at appropriate MR for the mission is relegated to walking behind them and picking up loot.

8 hours ago, peterc3 said:

"Cool looking" is very subjective. You've highlighted that a specific team comp will have no challenge.

Yes, cool is subjective, but it needs to be better than the crap lodestar armor they dumped as a 1000 day reward that feels like a kick to the junk for people that actually earned it because it's very "meh".  The riv elite armor is cool as hell and used to be PVP exclusive, these are opinions of course, but I'd wager that plenty of people might agree.  Something like that is needed here.

As far as the team comp, it's actually different here because if you recall in ESO, everything is reset after stage change, I'm not even sure that would work here with the scaling, but if it did I'm sure it would be patched, as well as anything else that can destroy for 160M Dps.

If anything I'd put those cosmetics on a seasonal run.  Change the cosmetic maybe twice per year and then release the old ones to the general public a year later for plat or a special mission reward, this way those people get their "exclusivity" for a time, and have a reason to keep playing that mode and get the new cosmetics every six months, while allowing the players that can't compete at that level to still have access, albeit later and without exclusivity.

 

Edited September 1, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Klokwerkaos]

14 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

I can only see this going poorly for people who don't have adequate weapons for that zone (Due to them being taxied, leveling mastery fodder, or whatever). It'd also be prone to problems if people AFK, and an easy way to troll if people just loaded in and just didn't do anything, or prevented people from killing anything by taking up all the kills for themselves. Additionally, I can see a meta being formed around killing things as fast as possible, and people getting harassed if they don't go for the meta due to them "slowing down everyone else."

Other than that, I like most of the ideas on this list.

So what you're saying is... it might discourage players from power leveling through zones they haven't naturally progressed to already... hmmm... not seeing a down side here.

I see your point, I just think that's kind something I would think should be disincentivised to begin with.  This way, sure, you can still do it, but that's not going to be as efficient as just having someone there to kill everything while you sit and soak affinity... and I think that would be, while plenty of people might complain, something that is good for overall game health.

[Klokwerkaos]

Bump for additional feedback during humans hours.

[Buttaface]

WF desperately needs non leechable, advanced game modes. There needs to be at least -some- game modes that require max gear and can't be leeched into. ESO doesn't cut it, it's atrociously bad and non immersive in fact.

[Klokwerkaos]

4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

WF desperately needs non leechable, advanced game modes. There needs to be at least -some- game modes that require max gear and can't be leeched into. ESO doesn't cut it, it's atrociously bad and non immersive in fact.

If we had something like that it would also give people reason to stop screaming so much for nerfs except in extreme cases because there actually would be a reason to have them.

[Klokwerkaos]

Was hoping for more feedback. 😕

[Klokwerkaos]

19 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

All of those ideas are absolutely horrible. Getting just riven parts is not worth it all. A lot of people don't even care bout rivens besides using them as easy plat. I'm a MR25 player and whenever I get a riven that is for a "meta" weapon I just insta sell it. Don't even bother rolling. It's easy plat. Those weapons are already good without those. At least for current game content. So having rivens that could be opened without doing challenge for plat has no appeal for me. Also most riven challenges are super easy if you know what to do. Only riven challanges that can be annoying are syndicate medallions ( coz it takes long to scour map to find them all ) and darygn pilots ( coz their spawn rates sometimes just don't exist. my record is 1 hour without seeing a single one spawn in plains )

I see you stating an opinion and saying that your opinion speaks for you only.  I don't think you're the only one with an opinion.  You'll need to substantiate your claim better for me to argue a solid point for or against it.

19 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

Again this is a bad idea. If you give everyone a separate capture target it will cause chaos with lower gear players once they hit bigger level planets. I've seen starting players who can't deal enough damage to a capture target and they escape. You kinda forget about that part when you got everything maxed. Also would just force people to play this mode solo.

If they choose to play solo that's a choice.  Additionally there is no reason they can't cooperate to bring each target down.  Putting a minimum enemy level cap to say, maybe 25 for enemies for this to happen would work fine.  I don't see the issue.

19 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

How is excavation made obsolete by eso? By the tiem you finish one eso rotation of 20 minutes you could have done 3-4 c rotation on excavation. If you just want the relic it's way more effective.

Only for a meta team, and in general, the full radiants are going to be more valuable.

19 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

And this would make spy solo plays even more than they are now.

don't see a problem here either.  player choice is a thing.  I feel like you're against adding engagement and strategy to the game by your claims, but that creates the problems we have now.

19 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

Makes no sense. If the other team fails to get their target and you do it'll just make people go solo and get both alone. Again the spy problem.

If you have greater resources there is no reason you shouldn't be able to do more.  I don't see your point here, solo again is an option, and many people play solo, and that's fine, but what I'm combating here is when one person goes in and clears the whole mission with one person walking behind them.  What solutions do you suggest?  I see a lot of nay saying, no actual problem solutions on the table.  Yes, some things would change, but that's inevitable regardless.

19 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

I personally would love it if you could activate all terminals at once. Would make the missions so much faster for people that can do it.

With added risk of course, I'm really into this idea personally.

19 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

And warframe is unique in that that it let's you actually go nuking everything on the map if you want. No other game actually makes you overpowered compared to your enemies like it does.

I think you might be missing the issue.

There is a long standing problem of people crying to nerf everything more powerful than they are into the ground.  As evidenced by the video, generally speaking, except in rare cases, nerfing is very bad (loss aversion).  

That said, without a nerf many players are legitimately frustrated that they can't contribute when forced to play with min/max characters.  Telling them to go put their own group together is simply not an option because they just flat out refuse to, and instead lobby until something gets nerfed into the ground.

These solutions are designed to combat that endless cycle because as soon as one thing is nerfed another pops up.  Nuke trinity old vs new is a prime examble of this.  It's futile, pointless and stupid and really these people are just shooting themselves in the foot rather than finding longer term solutions, which is what I'm attempting here.

Ultimately players want fun, but not everyone can compete at endgame levels, and we're forced to play together.  These additional options and strategies are designed to make more opportunities for more players to actually matter.  That's why I propose them.

If you have a better solution though, I'm very curious to hear, I'm OK with being wrong, but I'm not OK with being told I'm wrong and then not having been shown a better/more correct method because that just puts the integrity of the accusation in question.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Klokwerkaos]

4 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said:

What about people that are having fun doing this? You mentioned nuke trin. While I didn't enjoy it there are people out there who legit enjoyed doing that.

Also one of charms of warframe is that you don't need a good group to do stuff. There are people out there willing to carry you alone. And that makes the game more fun for them.

Sure some of newer players can complain they have nothing to do but isn't that so in any mmo that let's players queue up with all power levels possible in the game?

I agree with you... what about those people!?!?!?

But that's exactly why I've put this together.  This way it allows us to preserve those playstyles.  

If you're not familiar DE has a long history of nerfing the crap out of things when enough people whine and cry about it.  And if you look through the forums in recent months, you'll see the forum is flooded with these types of threads.

Some of us say adapt, they say they shouldn't have to.  At the end of the day the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  This is a way to preserve all playstyles, that's why I put it together as feedback.

 

[Xaero]

Wow, cheese must really be so important to you that you ask to balance the game around it (as well as lock some rewards behind it). I wonder why there's no suggestion to make every mission 4-dimensional, where each squadmate operates in his own dimension and can't interact with others. Just to keep cheese.

I may be wrong, but I believe that when DE nerf something, they intend to not allow you to cheese through content rather than make your teammates do something other than spectating. You say you want to preserve cheesy playstyles, but why? Is there any good reason to not get rid of them?

[Reaver_X]

this is also a horde game, sooooo were supposed to have moves that deal with large amounts of enemies at once.

[Klokwerkaos]

I see people are largely missing the point of first, why this was proposed (on both sides of the issue) and also what constructive criticism means 😕

 

[Xaero]

9 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I see people are largely missing the point of first, why this was proposed (on both sides of the issue) and also what constructive criticism means 😕

 

Whatever point you have in your mind, it's not worth making objectives overcomplicated.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Ksaero

[Klokwerkaos]

2 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

Whatever point you have in your mind, it's not worth making objectives overcomplicated.

What is overly complicated?

These barely change anything and simply provide more opportunities for players to make meaningful decisions/contributions based on things that are already in the game.

I'm seeing neigh saying, rather than thoughtful criticisms.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Xaero]

2 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

What is overly complicated?

These barely change anything and simply provide more opportunities for players to make meaningful decisions/contributions based on things that are already in the game.

The best examples are your Capture and Exterminate suggestions.

Really, why have a single target when you can have 4 at once, 3 of which you can't even see? Should I mention obvious trolling potential?

And what's the benefit of introducing minimum amount of kills requirement? Will players who couldn't manage to reach it be excluded from rewards? Or will those who do the mission quick be forced to wait everyone else to complete their objective? And what if someone is trolling again and doesn't complete their objective? Your suggestion is fundamentally bad and to make it not so bad you'll just have to put more suggestions making it even more complicated.

Do you really believe DE will looks at this with seriousness?

Regarding nuking abilities, I can come up with some suggestions (didn't even think about them much):

Equinox. Maim only stores damage dealt by the player, damage dealt by teammates doesn't count. Stored damage spreads evenly between enemies in range.

Saryn. Enemies affected by spores don't spread spores further if killed by teammates. Miasma's damage falls off with distance.

Volt. Discharge doesn't damage enemies anymore, keeps the stun effect. Approaching enemies are stunned, but the further they are from the source, the faster they recover.

Banshee. Soundquake releases bursts of soundwaves instead of constantly affecting area around her. Enemies are damaged and stunned by the waves for a moment, but can keep moving and shooting between the bursts. Banshee can also move when ability is activated.

That's it, the changes are quick and easy, active gameplay promoted, all players can participate, missions can still be carried but with effort, everyone's happy.

[Meicoomon_Prime]

I think the easy fix, have to public match making. one for whatever (chesse, very powerful builds, and ect) then public for strict. caps power strength and such for frames. also have anti-spam feature like ESO.

that we can pair people who wants to play Balanced can have fun then players that don't mind chesse, or love to play with god like builds people can play together. 

i'm one of those players that don't care of chesse, god like builds, and such because it go's to one goal. getting the mission done as team. 

tho there is times i don't like chesse time to time. 

 

i would say for D.E to choose which stats for us to have in the strict mode so we just go in with survival  mods then the match making applies the rest (strength,range,dur,and ect)  

 the second one will be "freedom public" (bad name i know, but it can be changed)  is anything go's. 

[Xaero]

34 minutes ago, Meicoomon_Prime said:

I think the easy fix, have to public match making. one for whatever (chesse, very powerful builds, and ect) then public for strict. caps power strength and such for frames. also have anti-spam feature like ESO.

Doesn't sound like an easy fix. Instead of just balancing the game, devs would still balance the game while also keeping the old unbalanced version available for play. Should old version be excluded from future updates then?

Edited September 4, 2018 by Ksaero

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, Ksaero said:

The best examples are your Capture and Exterminate suggestions.

Really, why have a single target when you can have 4 at once, 3 of which you can't even see? Should I mention obvious trolling potential?

And what's the benefit of introducing minimum amount of kills requirement? Will players who couldn't manage to reach it be excluded from rewards? Or will those who do the mission quick be forced to wait everyone else to complete their objective? And what if someone is trolling again and doesn't complete their objective? Your suggestion is fundamentally bad and to make it not so bad you'll just have to put more suggestions making it even more complicated.

Do you really believe DE will looks at this with seriousness?

Regarding nuking abilities, I can come up with some suggestions (didn't even think about them much):

Equinox. Maim only stores damage dealt by the player, damage dealt by teammates doesn't count. Stored damage spreads evenly between enemies in range.

Saryn. Enemies affected by spores don't spread spores further if killed by teammates. Miasma's damage falls off with distance.

Volt. Discharge doesn't damage enemies anymore, keeps the stun effect. Approaching enemies are stunned, but the further they are from the source, the faster they recover.

Banshee. Soundquake releases bursts of soundwaves instead of constantly affecting area around her. Enemies are damaged and stunned by the waves for a moment, but can keep moving and shooting between the bursts. Banshee can also move when ability is activated.

That's it, the changes are quick and easy, active gameplay promoted, all players can participate, missions can still be carried but with effort, everyone's happy.

These don't fix the root problem.  You're missing the point.  If you nerf one thing another will pop up.  People will continue to break the game as a matter of habit.  The only way to work around that is to provide additional engagement options.  You're also ignoring the buffs> nerfs psychology entirely.

I've thought about all of the solutions you listed before.  They aren't good fixes by my estimation for many reasons.

Firstly, many of us like our caster frames, particularly those of us that invested a dozen forma into something and maxed our arcanes and rivens.  We don't like "being screwed over by a bunch of cry babies that fail to adapt".  On the other side of the fence, many people prefer to actually play the game rather than have "one person suck the joy out of it for everyone".  These are the types of comments that fly back and forth.

You can't get these people to agree on anything... they are diametrically opposed play styles as well as spots in the game.

The only solution for everyone is to provide additional engagement.

Please show me your better ideas.  

Edited September 4, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Xaero]

4 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

These don't fix the root problem.  You're missing the point.  If you nerf one thing another will pop up.  People will continue to break the game as a matter of habit.  The only way to work around that is to provide additional engagement options.

The only way? Here's alternate way: if you nerf one thing, another will pop up. And then... you nerf another thing. And another after that. The game is constantly worked on anyways. Wish balancing took faster though.

[Klokwerkaos]

Just now, Ksaero said:

The only way? Here's alternate way: if you nerf one thing, another will pop up. And then... you nerf another thing. And another after that. The game is constantly worked on anyways. Wish balancing took faster though.

You're arguments are coming from a place where I'm fairly convinced you are not open to new evidence.  If you don't understand loss avoidance as explained above, this probably isn't the thead for you.  If you can't see that both sides of the argument deserve a seat at the table, probably not the thread for you.  If you can't come up with ways to fix the problem rather than exacerbate it, then probably not the thread for you.

[Khalinda]

Stop making teamplay in Warframe happen, it's not gonna happen. As long as a decent Ash can solo 5+ hours MOT just for fun, coop will mean nothing in this game. Making mission objectives more fiddly and more reliant on possible trolling team mates is most definitely not the way to go.

The missions themselves are not the problem, the amount of cannon fodder stupid wave-like enemies are. They simply provide no incentive for us to do anything but map nuking or hard CC + map nuking. I think I've said this before but in my opinion - fewer, tougher and harder hitting enemies would make things a lot better. Add in more specialized type of enemies instead of just ranged, melee and disrupting/cc. Make us think before we go rolling in a room full of enemies, not just spam our aoe abilities and move on.

I'm going to give (again) the example of coop missions in Warface, a crap game that managed to get one thing right, hard but fun pve missions. Even with top gear and years of experience you can still fail if you're reckless.

I'm not asking to change Warframe into a tactical shooter, but make enemies more than damage numbers on the screen...

[Xaero]

10 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I've thought about all of the solutions you listed before.  They aren't good fixes by my estimation for many reasons.

Firstly, many of us like our caster frames, particularly those of us that invested a dozen forma into something and maxed our arcanes and rivens.  We don't like "being screwed over by a bunch of cry babies that fail to adapt".  On the other side of the fence, many people prefer to actually play the game rather than have "one person suck the joy out of it for everyone".  These are the types of comments that fly back and forth.

You can't get these people to agree on anything... they are diametrically opposed play styles as well as spots in the game.

The only solution for everyone is to provide additional engagement.

Please show me your better ideas.  

I think it's better to post another comment than editing your previous one to be twice as big (unless you don't want me to see what you're posting).

So, what are those "many reasons"? I don't see anything besides "firstly", will "secondly" and so on be added later?

Ok, let's deal with the "firstly". "Many of us like our caster frames". Um, ok, keep loving them. It's not like my suggestions take out the caster part from listed frames. It's just that casting won't be the only thing you'll do to be most efficient. You've invested a lot of forma, maxed out arcanes and rivens, great! After the change you'll feel it wasn't for nothing. Because the abilities I've mentioned have nothing to do with rivens and arcanes and don't even require a lot of forma.

[Klokwerkaos]

2 hours ago, Ksaero said:

I think it's better to post another comment than editing your previous one to be twice as big (unless you don't want me to see what you're posting).

So, what are those "many reasons"? I don't see anything besides "firstly", will "secondly" and so on be added later?

Ok, let's deal with the "firstly". "Many of us like our caster frames". Um, ok, keep loving them. It's not like my suggestions take out the caster part from listed frames. It's just that casting won't be the only thing you'll do to be most efficient. You've invested a lot of forma, maxed out arcanes and rivens, great! After the change you'll feel it wasn't for nothing. Because the abilities I've mentioned have nothing to do with rivens and arcanes and don't even require a lot of forma.

I'm fairly certain you're intentionally missing the point.

nerfs feel bad and don't work in the long run.  providing more options for engaging gameplay is almost always good.

I fail to see how you don't recognize this but I'm not going to argue with someone that is moving goal posts and shifts the focal point to something irrelevant.