Elite Onslaught is Pointless Boredom Because of Saryn

[miomima]

il y a 30 minutes, (PS4)IrSchm33 a dit :

Cool Downs and a Nerf on every frame, I can only strongly say I hope for the sake of the percentage of players, who play on a daily basis, that these suggested changes never get implemented

I play on daily bassis nad game become borring because of how easy it is. I more than sure that there A LOT of players that think in same way, who is borred of being forced to play 2 hours survival till actual challenge begins (and this challenge is kinda bad, because this is challenging only because enemies turns into bulletsponges and start oneshoting you, you still have infinite amount of resources to play with). 

There SHOULD be missions that hard from the begining, and best way to make missions hard - limit resources of the player (ammo, energy, abilities). Right now only energy drain nightmare missions is slightly enjoyable in that way. I dont blame casual players for wanting an ability to have win button, but give me and people with same mentality at least a different game mod with different reward where all enemies are scary, where you actualy needto manage resources, where you actualy NEED some teamplay if you want to get far. Because right now i can throw 10+ permanent bastiles as vauban, cast discharge on volt every 5 seconds without losing energy, destroying all enemies on map as saryn, game is bassicaly turns into press X to win.

[miomima]

il y a 17 minutes, Xydeth a dit :

no offense intended, but i do really want to know how many games u have played with saryn and against which enemy level...because i cant stop shaking my head reading this.

Not a lot compared to fav frames, and only on Saryn Prime. But numbers, well as Saryn i have more kills with abilities than Mesa while played as her ~10 times less. Playing mostly Kuva survival or Eso, or random sortie. And when i pick Saryn after any other frame - game become, i dunno, not a game even. You just cant lose.

[felixsylvaris]

il y a une heure, Xydeth a dit :

the point about spores though is not the damage itself, the armor removal is way more important. saryn cant make full use of spore's ramping to such extremes because she lacks the CC and survivability for such long runs where that damage would matter and if she tried to do such runs by camping somewhere and keeping hallways locked down for kills per second spore again would mostly serve as armor removal/reduction, the dmg would still be slow, riscy and even then mostly

Spores are 25e abillity. They have advantage of unlimited time from single cast, and good range, even better range if team spreads and kills enemies in 4 spots. You can have 3 spores on victim, or 12 (via recast). You can argue that spores are not fire and forget, need to pop them, sometimes recast, and it never that perfect. Corrosive is great, but it is just a standard status, you can get it on weapon so no op.

Now, how much 25e abillity should deal? 100k? 3x100k? 12x100k? That looks a bit high, especially with 100% abillity power. So Spores max damage should scale with abillity power, and have some sane base value. The base value should be high enought to make it viable in 120lv content (level of elite allerts, sorties and stuff) 6h survivals are for people with iron bladder and not base for balance.

Introducing spores damage cap will change nothing? With 100% AP you can reachh 3500 damage . With suggested value 500 base or 300 base and 250% (which already requires some sacrifizes) it will be 2.5x500=1250. Much lower than 3500. 3 times more for enemies to kill me. 3 times slower kills per seconds. Still thinking it doesnt matter?

Comparing with other abillities 25e abillities deal around 300-800 damage depending on area, special factors, and randomness. There are some very good abillities like Octavia Mallet, however always to the top and alays to the bottom are not balance aproach. Embers fireblast firering deals 225 damage per second, but this abillity sucks. Ember WoF deals 800 damage but it is sutain, and only 5 target, and it sucks. Hydroid splash deals 600 damage but it has gimmicks. Oberon hallowed ground deals 100 damage per second but this abillity has low damage, and either has other benefits (like armour or armour stripping) or simply has too low damage to be ok. Revenants Danse Macabre deals 2500 best damage but it is sustain abillity with high cost.

There is an option to just buff everything, like each time Mag uses Pull all her next pull will deal 5% more damage till the end of missions. And i am not saying it is bad idea, however that is 35 frames, so a lot of work, and capping spores would be leave more time for particle effects.

So taking it all into account 300*AP damage per spore (x3 or x12 max spores) is closes to avarage of viable frames.

Which is a nerf, so to ofset that initial decay of 20% shall be removed, and damage buff from Toxic Lash increased to 50% and 100%

Precise change is much better than "nerf everything" or pretending that there is nothing to see here, untill DE decides "we need total rework".

Some Saryn meta value comes from infinite spore damage, if it will be capped try hards will move to Equinox, Mesa, Volt, Excalibur... and if someone just likes Saryn could play it in casually.

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by felixsylvaris

[miomima]

il y a une heure, (PS4)IrSchm33 a dit :

Can you actually show me a screenshot of your saryn alone doing a billion damage? 

Corrupted bombard at level 100 have more than 1 000 000 effective health, by pressing one button once saryn removes 500 000 of his effective health, now add to this 40 enemies around saryn at one time, and add armor strip that destroy EHP of the enemies with armor. So yea, in something like 40 mins solo (or not) kuva survival Saryn probbly gona deal more than billion effective damage.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

I miss the old Saryn. No, I didn't get a whole lot of kills with spores and poison spreading, but when every enemy on the map was at half health due to infinite Viral Procs, I was happy to be contributing and giving my team an easier time.

[(PSN)Captain_Bonecold]

14 hours ago, Broble said:

I think maybe I did. Perhaps I wasn't paying attention then. Why did saryn need the rework in the first place?

Nyx is getting rework. A rework allows older frames to be improve. Excal was rework. Excal in the past had an ability that allow him to jump in high places. Rework same reason void keys were replace with relics. Same reason abilities were change from mods to abilities you unlock by ranking up warframes. Same reason stamina was removed. It helps improve the game. 

[Sesaline]

23 hours ago, Buttaface said:

They need to nerf down all that cheeze too. Rolling back the Saryn OP overbuff should be just the starting point. Then they need to address Peacemaker, Maim, Discharge, and lots of other single press radial AOE BS if this game is ever to be other than mediocre.

orrrr DE could revisit some map designs and increase the base affinity + enemy spawn/detection range so that players don't have to stand on top of each other all the time. the game has some contradicting design choices... looter shooter w/ 'power fantasy' but most of the time it's spent standing around looking at each other or trying not to be last to extraction because the seasoned player is already 2 tiles ahead and has cleared everything. Moving away from teammates results in less loot, affinity, and some really awkward spawns even tho one bullet jump+glide is enough to break that range. A lot of this caster vs the world struggle is due to having 4 very mobile, very lethal players forced into tight spaces with each other, accompanied by snoozefest spawn rates and zero challenge from the start of a mission. The difficulty doesn't ramp up until well after the first rotation too... that's a long time without any meaningful action. Then comes the problem of rewards not scaling which leads most players to leave before the mission can even get interesting. Objectives could be more diverse too. More variety with multiple things going on at once (randomly or scripted) would ensure that you never even notice the Saryn/Octavia/Mesa until teamwork is truly required. By that time you'd have a much greater appreciation of their capabilities alongside your own.

then again, I'm having to wait around for 40 minutes just to have semi-decent spawn maybe worth a second thought so idk. lots of questionable mission/co-op game design choices going on here that seem to counteract one another. Either nerf all the aoe frames and weapons or give players more breathing room so we can mind our own business without hurting the team's progression. I'm tired of feeling like I'm stepping on my squadmates' toes by playing a frame as it was intended. With the release of Rev + his 4 toggle in mind, I don't think DE wants to remove aoe damage abilities from the game... but there's definitely an issue with them in the current design of co-op warframe. One or the other is going to have to drastically change eventually for players to find some peace.

[(PSN)Captain_Bonecold]

18 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

And what does that have to do with anything?

And why wouldn't she be after she's brought in line a bit? If your fav frame just happens to be "insert-META-cheese-of-the-month-here": Don't fret, some will always be the objectively best for a job (there shouldn't be landslides like that between them and the others tho imo).

My fav frame is Volt. I'm all for renerfing Discharge. Crazy huh.

Edit: I remember when Volt shields were uncapped and their crit multiplier stacked. It was silly.

You want old saryn. Molt+Spores was her old combo. You molt. Then spore.  Then anything around died. 

Saryn balance right now. 

[RadYogh]

I like the game as it is. With all the nukers and stuff.

And even more - I like the game because there are things that allow quickly kill lots of stuff.

I like the way how Nova worked when it was just added to the game. I liked trinity nuke builds. I liked how old mag, before rework, was able to clear corpus with her shield polarize. I liked the old Exo's radial javelin, old Mesa (when her ultie worked 360 degree). Though many of these things were missing scalability and that was a bad side. There was almost no point in doing realy long missions because after some point you just can't clear stuff fast enough. I'd like to see all abilities of all frames getting some kind of rework that would make them scalable to the enemies(but would require some thinking to make a right build, to use skills correctly and such stuff). And I wish there was some way to start missions at higher level enemies (let's say begin survivals at 60-120 minutes, defense at wave 60-120, and similar with other "endless" missions). And all missions where you need to protect something must have some kind of scaling of the thing you need to protect - it is ridiculous when extractor gets instantly killed after receiving ANY hit at 2k+ cryotic extracted.

I just wonder... Did the author of this thread ever try to fight really highlevel stuff (lvl 1000+ or at least 300+)? (try doing 100+ waves T4 defense for example)

And I don't get, why author say that the game need to focus on close combat?

[IRVoidGuru]

5 hours ago, miomima said:

I play on daily bassis nad game become borring because of how easy it is. I more than sure that there A LOT of players that think in same way, who is borred of being forced to play 2 hours survival till actual challenge begins (and this challenge is kinda bad, because this is challenging only because enemies turns into bulletsponges and start oneshoting you, you still have infinite amount of resources to play with). 

 let's say 1000 players only play on a daily basis. And you are one player. 0.1% let's say 100 players think like you. 10%. Is that enough to Nerf 90% of us?

Lets say 400 of you. Or 40%. Is it enough yet to Nerf 60% of us? Cuz let's be honest you're not the majority here.

Quote

There SHOULD be missions that hard from the begining, and best way to make missions hard - limit resources of the player (ammo, energy, abilities). Right now only energy drain nightmare missions is slightly enjoyable in that way. I dont blame casual players for wanting an ability to have win button, but give me and people with same mentality at least a different game mod with different reward where all enemies are scary, where you actualy needto manage resources, where you actualy NEED some teamplay if you want to get far. Because right now i can throw 10+ permanent bastiles as vauban, cast discharge on volt every 5 seconds without losing energy, destroying all enemies on map as saryn, game is bassicaly turns into press X to win.

You said the best way for the game to be hard is to limit the players? If you want missions to be hard in this way then why can't you simply use lower level mods, or use some of those resources that were presented to you to make the game more challenging like say dragon keys. Limit yourself

Your main complaint here seems to be how other players are playing the game that they enjoy.

Edited September 2, 2018 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[IRVoidGuru]

4 hours ago, miomima said:

Corrupted bombard at level 100 have more than 1 000 000 effective health, by pressing one button once saryn removes 500 000 of his effective health, now add to this 40 enemies around saryn at one time, and add armor strip that destroy EHP of the enemies with armor. So yea, in something like 40 mins solo (or not) kuva survival Saryn probbly gona deal more than billion effective damage.

So no. No would be the short version of this.

[Xolgys]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb felixsylvaris:

Spores are 25e abillity. They have advantage of unlimited [...]

 

again the dmg is pointless. u wont go to content where u could come close to such values. also, there are other abilities which are cheap and enable silly dmg too, the energy cost is no argument too. set it to 50 ? to 75 ? doesnt matter at all. again, the armor shred is more important on spores. have fun waiting for spores to stack up, in the meantime enemies will one shot u because thats the level of content where spores could potentially scale up to such values. ur still way more effective using ur weapons with toxic leash to actually kill and only use spores for armor reduction. sure, they will kill too after some time, but since when have trash mobs been a basis to compare and rate ? low level missions arent a legit basis for comparison either because after a certain point they are a walk in the park, no matter which frame u use. if u pick an AoE frame with enough range there u can get all the kills, u dont need saryn for that.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb miomima:

Not a lot compared to fav frames, and only on Saryn Prime. But numbers, well as Saryn i have more kills with abilities than Mesa while played as her ~10 times less. Playing mostly Kuva survival or Eso, or random sortie. And when i pick Saryn after any other frame - game become, i dunno, not a game even. You just cant lose.

so, with other frames its difficult to do ESO ? or sorties ? or kuva surv ? i dont think so. especially ESO has perfect conditions for saryn, its not really a good way to judge her as a whole. also if its not saryn being "best" at ESO its another frame. are u going to complain until there is a nerf-thread for all dmg oriented frames who can do ESO easily ? because saryn is not the only one, aboslutely not.

[miomima]

1 час назад, (PS4)IrSchm33 сказал:

 let's say 1000 players only play on a daily basis. And you are one player. 0.1% let's say 100 players think like you. 10%. Is that enough to Nerf 90% of us?

Lets say 400 of you. Or 40%. Is it enough yet to Nerf 60% of us? Cuz let's be honest you're not the majority here.

You said the best way for the game to be hard is to limit the players? If you want missions to be hard in this way then why can't you simply use lower level mods, or use some of those resources that were presented to you to make the game more challenging like say dragon keys. Limit yourself

Your main complaint here seems to be how other players are playing the game that they enjoy.

And you represent all 99,9999(9)% of the community, and you sure that all of them want whats you want? Well, good luck with that.

Im saying that thre should be hard missions from the start. Casual players can still enjoy "low end" content without hurting themself. Im already constantly running no energy Nightmare missions, just because how borred i am, and i`m more than sure that thre more people like me who just "well, there nothing fun to do anymore, sortie and out".

[miomima]

9 минут назад, Xydeth сказал:

 are u going to complain until there is a nerf-thread for all dmg oriented frames who can do ESO easily ? because saryn is not the only one, aboslutely not.

i`m goin to complain till all frames gona be nerfed, and warframe stops being ability spam fest, but if with some frames you at least need some timings, movement, aim, management, with other you just need to press 2 buttons, and you done. no matter what weapon you use, can be lato with no mods. A game should remain as a game, you need to put effort to win.

[(PSN)Captain_Bonecold]

6 minutes ago, miomima said:

And you represent all 99,9999(9)% of the community, and you sure that all of them want whats you want? Well, good luck with that.

Im saying that thre should be hard missions from the start. Casual players can still enjoy "low end" content without hurting themself. Im already constantly running no energy Nightmare missions, just because how borred i am, and i`m more than sure that thre more people like me who just "well, there nothing fun to do anymore, sortie and out".

._.

So noob punishment is your idea of fun? Let's remind everyone of new players. Harder gameplay hurts new players. New players only has access to 1 planet,1 weapon of each type and 1 warframe.  1 weapon of each type means main, side and melee. Let's also remind that new players are unranked.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Captain_Bonecold:

You want old saryn.

No i don't and i never said so either.

She's more interactive and interesting to play now, no question. But that alone doesn't make her balanced.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (PS4)IrSchm33:

Cuz let's be honest you're not the majority here.

Source?

Edited September 2, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[miomima]

2 минуты назад, (PS4)Captain_Bonecold сказал:

._.

So noob punishment is your idea of fun? Let's remind everyone of new players. Harder gameplay hurts new players. New players only has access to 1 planet,1 weapon of each type and 1 warframe.  1 weapon of each type means main, side and melee. Let's also remind that new players are unranked.

is there somewhere a sentence from me where i tell "lets rump up difficulty everywhere"? I actualy think that would be a good idea, but no. DE at least can tweak Nightmare missions somehow, make all nightmare missions lvl70-100+ and not just damage boost. Introduce cooldowns for them instead of random modifier that sometimes not even bothering you. Add some actual rewards for it, maybe even cosmetic that not affect gameplay at all.

[(PSN)Captain_Bonecold]

2 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

No i don't and i never said so either.

She more interactive and interesting to play now, no question. But that alone doesn't make her balanced.

Source?

More balance now than in the past.

[(PSN)Captain_Bonecold]

26 minutes ago, miomima said:

And you represent all 99,9999(9)% of the community, and you sure that all of them want whats you want? Well, good luck with that.

Im saying that thre should be hard missions from the start. Casual players can still enjoy "low end" content without hurting themself. Im already constantly running no energy Nightmare missions, just because how borred i am, and i`m more than sure that thre more people like me who just "well, there nothing fun to do anymore, sortie and out".

 

6 minutes ago, miomima said:

is there somewhere a sentence from me where i tell "lets rump up difficulty everywhere"? I actualy think that would be a good idea, but no. DE at least can tweak Nightmare missions somehow, make all nightmare missions lvl70-100+ and not just damage boost. Introduce cooldowns for them instead of random modifier that sometimes not even bothering you. Add some actual rewards for it, maybe even cosmetic that not affect gameplay at all.

 

Look up. 

[Almagnus1]

Let's all agree AFK farming is bad, mmkkay?

That said, the only reason why I'm strong considering building an ESO map nuker is that the base focus gains are just way too low, and if I ever want any hope at ever finishing out my focus trees, I need to start ramping up my focus gains doing something that's time efficient and challenging enough that it's fun... which generally means map nuking in ESO with a bunch of Eidolon lenses.

[felixsylvaris]

il y a une heure, Xydeth a dit :

again the dmg is pointless. u wont go to content where u could come close to such values. also, there are other abilities which are cheap and enable silly dmg too, the energy cost is no argument too. set it to 50 ? to 75 ? doesnt matter at all. again, the armor shred is more important on spores. have fun waiting for spores to stack up, in the meantime enemies will one shot u because thats the level of content where spores could potentially scale up to such values. ur still way more effective using ur weapons with toxic leash to actually kill and only use spores for armor reduction. sure, they will kill too after some time, but since when have trash mobs been a basis to compare and rate ? low level missions arent a legit basis for comparison either because after a certain point they are a walk in the park, no matter which frame u use. if u pick an AoE frame with enough range there u an get all the kills, u dont need saryn for that.

 

• i never suggested increasing cost of Spores, only introducing cap for max per spore damage based on Abillity Power and some base value ok for 25e abillity, I also provided examples what other frames can do.
• In comparison to other frames 300*AP per spore is avarage point of balance. But with slower decay, and better toxic lash.
• In casual ESO you can reach over 4k damage per spore and 40 targets of spored. It fluctuates.Which is more than other 25e (many times more), Mallet is close, but mallet need to be shoot and seen.
• There is not much content above eso when it comes to rewards so it is good base for balace
• 3x300xAP is ok for most normal content (with 250% ap its 2150 pers sec) especially if Spores are only for corrosive proc and miasma opener and i kill with toxic lash.

Edited September 2, 2018 by felixsylvaris

[StealthyCARNAGE]

Uhhh, I basically never meet Saryn's outside of ESO.

[IRVoidGuru]

1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Source?

Make a thread based on putting cooldowns on every single frame in the game. I'll let the community speak for itself.

Do you want me to believe a majority of players want to be limited in things like ammunition /energy? Are you telling me you believe the gateway to challenge is limiting the players in what we already have?

Edited September 3, 2018 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[(PSN)Captain_Bonecold]

Saryn is balance.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 49 Minuten schrieb StealthyCARNAGE:

Uhhh, I basically never meet Saryn's outside of ESO.

Why do people even use her in eso anymore? According to some dudes video the endless scaling of her spores has been fixed... what makes her a frame with a horrific long wind up that starts from zero every turn.

Edit

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108