Elite Onslaught is Pointless Boredom Because of Saryn

[nathrizarri]

Delete this.

Edited September 4, 2018 by nathrizarri

[nathrizarri]

@ActionPoohole

I am amazed that you have put so much effort into such a big pile of BS.

Saryn is damn fun to play and quite versatile, which is quite normal.

There are niche frames/weapons and there are general purpose frame/weapons. Saryn is the second cathegory, it is perfectly fine.

There are dozens of incidents where Saryn falls short with her current range. Nitpicking one aspect where she is strong and making strong and possibly harmful suggestions, no no.

She is the right direction that warframe needs to go, just because rest of the cast has poor kit doesn't mean she needs a nerf.

Wait for dmg 3.0, with the rework coming to Dmg, most of the problems you go full crybaby will be adressed.

You are the problem, not Saryn.

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by nathrizarri

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Case1:

crybabies

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb nathrizarri:

big pile of BS

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb nathrizarri:

You are the problem

Can we keep it down with the polemics please? "Crybaby" easily goes both ways btw. "Mimimi don't take brainded ez mode away from me" etc.

[nathrizarri]

13 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

 

 

Can we keep it down with the polemics please? "Crybaby" easily goes both ways btw. "Mimimi don't take brainded ez mode away from me" etc.

Except, it's not braindead ez mode. He complains about Saryn's win condition and how it makes his game un-fun for him.

There are stages that I get 80k focus with solo Saryn and there are 15k. He looks at 80k and ignores 15k. This is why it's 

 

A big pile of BS

Crybabies 

He is the problem.

Saryn barely escapes constantly spamming  1 even with max range. Nerfing it even further? Just because a saltboi can't use his Excalibur on a 3 dimensional environment? 

Edited September 4, 2018 by nathrizarri

[miomima]

25 минут назад, nathrizarri сказал:

Except, it's not braindead ez mode. He complains about Saryn's win condition and how it makes his game un-fun for him.

There are stages that I get 80k focus with solo Saryn and there are 15k. He looks at 80k and ignores 15k. This is why it's 

 

A big pile of BS

Crybabies 

He is the problem.

Meanwhile some frames cant get to wave 6 solo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but since ESO is not a big part of the game - we dont talk about it.

Saryn is AOE damage oriented frame, but for some reason she is a tank too, and CC, and debuff oriented frame, oh and she have escape. Meanwhile there is other AOE damage oriented frames like Ember which dont have any tank ability, no escape, her stuns is non existance and on top of that her main ability is channeling - so she cant replenish energy, and her damage dont scale into late game.

Volt - his first ability targets only 5 enemies at once and deals damage only once (when saryn deal damage to full map and it goes as DoT till enemy dies, so bassicaly infinit damage for no energy), he can tank only with shields and they dont help against some eximus aoe damage unlike armor, and his 4th deals damage only if a lot of enemies are close to each other, this damage dont scales into late game (especialy against armor).

Who else is damage oriented warframe? Mesa? - her first ability doesnt exist, shes tanky against range damage and get demolished when out of energy (unlike saryn with umbral mods) and all her damage is limited by line of sight and its channeling too so she cant regen energy while dealing a lot of damage.

Perfectly balanced frame, all abilities are good on all missions from begining to the end, have close to perfect stats, can fill up any role and be the best at that role. But some people think that people who complain about something - dont have that something, when its false. Every game i play as Saryn i see how i destroying all the fun for others, so i litteraly start to cripple myself by not press my "kill all" buttons.

Edited September 4, 2018 by miomima

[CryberBlade]

En 16/8/2018 a las 15:40, ActionPoohole dijo:

Hi guys,

So a bit of a vent thread here: Yet again I run into another Saryn on KUVA survival.

45 minutes into the game everything is still dying and the Saryn is doing almost nothing, seemingly semi-afk. So I guess my point is...

What kind of design of frame is this? I still do not understand why such an inherently broken concept has been placed into the game in the first place. Range that extends down halls and through doorways that kills everything even beyond level 110 etc (Including heavy and high level Eximus units)... In a game that really does not reward content beyond that point at all, why is this a thing?

I almost always refuse to play with Saryn due to the fact that they can press a button or 2 and afk while doing the most DPS leaving other players struggling to find something to do when the content is under level 100 (which almost everything is unless you're there for over an hour which too is basically pointless (Yet another issue with warframe) ).

She obliterates almost everything without other players getting a chance to partake in combat. Her role in the game is as toxic as her abilities. I personally see no reason for Warframes like this to exist apart from DPS show boating, arrogance or AFKing. She adds nothing to interactivity for other players in the group. Providing corrosive damage should probably (IMO) be a part of weapons, not Warframe abilities. If you corrode the targets with your source of DPS then you've already done most of what needs to be done due to the insane scaling of armor. Synergy with her does not exist until way past normal late game content. We're talking at least an hour or 2 into a long survival before her abilities start to slow down it seems... And again, that sort of content is mostly just for bragging rights with a few exceptions (Fissure rewards and whatever).

For the life of me, I cannot understand it. This is extremely poor gameplay design. Her DPS is over the top. It just makes me want to slump and use sit emote as there is almost nothing to do unless they let there be something to do.

"Run around and be a good Catalyst holder" ... Hmmm... Seems all the Saryn players that like playing as or with her always say she's fun or she's balanced, she most certainly is NOT balanced... And fun? As subjective as it is, if you find being AFK for most the game while everything dies as fun then I both envy and loathe what you feel there. Envy you for being able to enjoy something so pitifully boring and loathe that you could think that because that sort of opinion is what ruins what I believe could potentially be a genuinely high quality gaming experience.

There are other OP frames that actually involve interactivity and Synergy, and that is "ok" I guess, as long as it allows others to enjoy playing the game. Saryn does not. Sure, you may host a game and create an enjoyable experience with them if you set up correctly and are accepting of being the wheels on the vehicle till the point of 2-3 hours hours in a survival happens and you can finally be of use. But if you're not, and you want some sort of challenge without waiting for a broken frame to start dropping in dps hours later then Saryn does not partake in this concept.

This is a Co-op game; one that is designed for co-operation... And as far as I can see, co op is almost out the window with some frames... Out the window like rubbish of old England times in Saryn's case.

So then you get another frame and compare, say Khora? And her 4th ability? Causes enemies to endlessly swing around in a jungle gym slowly bleeding out because they snagged a bit of skin on a sharp bit, then you can crack them with your liquorice whip and bind them up in fence wire.

I won't ever get why the direction of nuke everything is applied to any frames. The scaling in this game is so horribly out of wack and the damage system is so topsy turvy that it's blatantly obvious to see where the flaws in the whole of Warframe content lays. Firstly, scaling ramps up too fast that you're just getting 1 shot within an hour or 2 (being 1 shot should never be a thing in any PvE game unless it's counterable). So you do what? Kill everything before it gets to you or remain invulnerable. So Saryn is the kill everything before it gets to you. Combine that with a bit of defence and you're basically unbeatable till you get bored. Oh, and healers can't heal what is dead... So that's why damage mitigation is required, and what better way apart from making yourself invulnerable with shielding abilities to do that? Kill everything before it can kill you. That's why Trinity buffs shields better than she heals, because shields help you to NOT take damage at all. And there's a point where that isn't going to help you much at all.

And that entirely ruins long survivals and stagnates the reason to not provide scaling rewards, because some frames are too good at it and other ones are pitifully useless at it. If you did provide scaling rewards then everyone would clearly see what is broken in the entirety of this game. DE know it and that's is why I believe they will not give scaling KUVA rewards. It's pitiful enough that the rolls cost so much as it is, but we don't get anything more for staying longer, better off just going 1 hour and repeating. That gets pretty boring, so we try ourselves for our OWN enjoyment and nothing more to try go longer.... And then Saryn happens and that just blows everything out of the water while you wait for 1-2 hours before anything even starts to get interesting.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So rather than just complaining about it? Well it's time to make some suggestions then!

So where could DE start on the road to fixing this woefully unbalanced game?

1. Enemy Armor/Damage scaling needs to be more paced out.
2. Range of abilities in almost all cases needs to be lowered.
3. Enemies need to get into closer proximity before being able to 1 shot you. Enemies could also have dodge-able shots like the current wound up sniper shots. Or abilities that show their path before hitting said path. (Anything that can be countered with dodging or active abilities to mitigate when need be, but not a constant ON or OFF defence)
4. Defence missions need to be designed less poorly as to allow line of sight only abilities\weapons\etc to be useful for faster clearing as well as be constantly flowing rather than a wait between every wave which further pushes towards the need for non line of sight based AoE to clear them as they spawn each wave.
5. Enemies need to not be so cowardly, and really BADLY need to stop getting stuck. Please fix this.
6. Weapons\abilities need more damage fall off to not only cause enemies to need to be closer to you to kill you, but also need you to be closer to them to kill them.. This would make better use of flight speed mods.
7. Game needs to focus more on close combat and reward you for skilled play. (This doesn't mean that newbies don't have their place to enjoy the game too, they'll just find it more challenging to get scaling rewards. And if they aren't willing to put in the time or effort to get better at the game then I believe they shouldn't be rewarded the same as players that put in more effort. That's how every other game I have enjoyed has been, why does Warframe insist on rewarding both laziness and lack of skill? Everybody gets a Ribbon in Warframe and that's why it appeals to so many, but there is such minimal additional reward for going that extra mile that veterans get bored too fast and keep hoping for new content or probably just stop playing in larger blocks.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I could add on and on to the list but that is probably for some sort of MEGA thread.

Currently: Warframe is entirely an Easy Mode game with virtually ZERO content that could possibly be called a challenge. When a veteran player (To not only Warframe) such as myself goes looking for any sort of challenge it is all self created. EG:

"Lets do this with these frames and not these ones because those ones are broken and boring afk frames and see how long we can last"

or

"I'm going to see if I can get this random weapon that seems fun to be worth using by rolling Rivens."

So not only do many of us have to waste extreme amounts of time that give no reward apart from making their own enjoyment, the lazy players that don't care to push the limits of the game continue to make large amounts of platinum from doing easy and repeatable content.

The game doesn't challenge veteran players at all and rewards almost entirely the use of broken frames that can kill everything without even having to use guns.

There is a plethora of weaponry in the game yet a vast majority of content requires minimal use of weapons. Take Elite Sanctuary Online for example: It was seemingly months worth of Trinity just blowing up her own feet to win the game.

Now it's buffed Equinox or what not.

You bring other frames into the game and more often than not you'll be struggling to even find the enemies to kill them before the timer runs out, further increasing the need for excessive range on a Warframe with buffs to that Warframe to be more efficient.

This game is about efficiency, not challenge or fun.

For anyone that has over 500 hours in the game:

1. Why exactly would you play a capture mission for apart from loot?
2. Why would you do a defence mission apart from loot?
3. Why would you play defection apart from loot?
4. Why would you go to the Plains apart from loot?
5. Why would you do interception apart from loot?
6. Why would you do rescue apart from loot?
7. Why would you do a spy mission apart from loot?

To me: The answer is: I would not. They are boring as hell. The reason I play this game is because of tinkering with weapons and riven mods and seeing what I can do with them and seeing how long I can go in a survival with friends when we don't use excessively broken Warframes. But sometimes you have to use OP Warframes because the weak ones are boring. Where is the balance? 

The game is addictive because it is addictive to collect things and earn currency... It most certainly is not addictive because of the boring designs of most missions. There certainly is not any challenging content in the game and anything considered as "difficult" is because of bad gameplay mechanics and not actual difficulty. Being 1 shot by enemies that you cannot avoid is NOT difficulty. That is broken gameplay. It's like saying to someone "Hop in the Water wearing lead boots and try staying afloat without a float". Sure, of course it's difficult. Because you need a float. And this game is just full of floats and full of lead boots and all the things that are actually fun in the game are entirely not necessary to success.

I hope to see this game start taking a bit more of a step in the direction of providing actual challenging content and not throwing more and more monsters that entail holding crouch to not die to.

I hope to see them learn from RPG games that don't require you to nuke the entirety of the enemy from a mile away to overcome the overwhelming odds. Surely there needs to be some tactics added to the game that extend beyond the use of excessively powerful 4th abilities that trivialise mid level content and make high level content a breeze, because that sort of stuff is for newbies and afkers. If you want to watch youtube or twitch streams then it appears this game is fantastic for that.

But what about players who actually want to dig in and beat some content that is truly challenging? The last time I ran into that was the Ambulas sortie 3 when I was a noob myself. And now it's just a case of probably 1 or 2 shotting the Ambulas with a [hunter munitions] sniper rifle. Even then? You'll probably get an Ayatan treasure.

Well that's my rant over and done with.

Comments? Roll with it.

 

 i got u answer is stupid range  overextended need to be nerfed

[nathrizarri]

1 hour ago, miomima said:

Meanwhile some frames cant get to wave 6 solo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but since ESO is not a big part of the game - we dont talk about it.

Saryn is AOE damage oriented frame, but for some reason she is a tank too, and CC, and debuff oriented frame, oh and she have escape. Meanwhile there is other AOE damage oriented frames like Ember which dont have any tank ability, no escape, her stuns is non existance and on top of that her main ability is channeling - so she cant replenish energy, and her damage dont scale into late game.

Volt - his first ability targets only 5 enemies at once and deals damage only once (when saryn deal damage to full map and it goes as DoT till enemy dies, so bassicaly infinit damage for no energy), he can tank only with shields and they dont help against some eximus aoe damage unlike armor, and his 4th deals damage only if a lot of enemies are close to each other, this damage dont scales into late game (especialy against armor).

Who else is damage oriented warframe? Mesa? - her first ability doesnt exist, shes tanky against range damage and get demolished when out of energy (unlike saryn with umbral mods) and all her damage is limited by line of sight and its channeling too so she cant regen energy while dealing a lot of damage.

Perfectly balanced frame, all abilities are good on all missions from begining to the end, have close to perfect stats, can fill up any role and be the best at that role. But some people think that people who complain about something - dont have that something, when its false. Every game i play as Saryn i see how i destroying all the fun for others, so i litteraly start to cripple myself by not press my "kill all" buttons.

she is a melee frame, of course she needs to be durable. For a melee frame she is not super tanky either. She is a well rounded frame but absolutely not best at any given role.

There are better tanks better ccers better dmgers. She scales infinitely in paper but once she drops the spore, if you don't go full str/ duration, she loses her dmg quite rapidly, which you won't be if you are going for Max range.

She is a jack of all trades and does exceptionally well with not super challenging content. Her Aoe is not enough to keep her scaling going on lineer maps and with upcoming Fortuna, her utility will diminish further.

[miomima]

41 минуту назад, nathrizarri сказал:

she is a melee frame, of course she needs to be durable. For a melee frame she is not super tanky either. She is a well rounded frame but absolutely not best at any given role.

There are better tanks better ccers better dmgers. She scales infinitely in paper but once she drops the spore, if you don't go full str/ duration, she loses her dmg quite rapidly, which you won't be if you are going for Max range.

She is a jack of all trades and does exceptionally well with not super challenging content. Her Aoe is not enough to keep her scaling going on lineer maps and with upcoming Fortuna, her utility will diminish further.

Wukong is melee frame, excal is melee frame, valkyr is melee frame, atlas is melee frame. Saryn is nothing of melee frame, yes melee make her 10 times tankier, but her theme is nothing about melee. And i highly doubt that viral proc on all enemies on the map can be even slightly weak. (and since melee 3.0 is coming - hello condition overload queen that procs not 1 but 3 status effects just with abilities).

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

19 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

 

 

Oh i didn't know COD featured space ninja mobility, moebius like enemy design and special space magic skills nowadays... Maybe i should check it out! Where's the free download?

 

*or titanfall

Gotta add that to my quote as well otherwise you're ignoring parts to further your own agenda. 

I'm quoting the part that addresses me. 

Go pay for it. You've likely paid for more than just it with what you've likely spent on warframe in its entirety. 

"Free" is relative in this instance in that if you've spent anything on a game, regardless of how "free" it is, you've paid that much for that game. 

Go play titanfall if you don't like how COD copied it. 

[Buttaface]

On ‎02‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 7:51 PM, StealthyCARNAGE said:

Uhhh, I basically never meet Saryn's outside of ESO.

Then I don't know what game you are playing. Other than leveling tiles, and often on those too, it's a tryhard fiesta out there full of Saryn, Mesa, Equinox, Volt, most max range, very often incompetent players with near zero map and team awareness other than at pressing the 1-2 crutch buttons that make them "gud" and sometimes a spin macro as a cherry on top. Those aren't the only four frames that need radial AOE/aimbot nerfed down, but they are the main culprits.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Buttaface

[Cibyllae]

Are we just going to nerf the top aoe frame until every aoe frame is s h i t?

[Zi-Sui]

Instead of nerfing AoE frames, especially Saryn, DE could add more content that doesn't favor them, like eidolons and bounties. Well Mesa is still good at bounties but other AoE frames not noticeably, at least I haven't seen them perform better than me with a tank frame in plains in my 300+ bounty runs.

A place where you could use your 4th ability much less often, like once 10-20 seconds or even less often, would do for starters. And place like eximus condition on sorties. Better yet, combine those two and of course make enemies trickle spawns like in exterminates. Like the plains assassination mission, kill a lot of eximus before boss appears. Throw in some extra condition or two like radiation hazard and it could be content barely challenging enough for those who yearn after harder content. Radiation hazard is good too, it means AoE abilities like the 4th of frames in question could kill your teammates. Radiation hazard in an eximus bossfight where you need to rescue target and can kill target with radiation procced.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

I'm constantly running into the exact same problem; while Saryn isn't an AFK playstyle, it is extremely easy for her to murder hordes upon hordes of enemies before they even enter line of sight radius. I'm of two minds regarding this problem.

This is what Saryn has ALWAYS done; this is what Saryn was made to do. Let's face it; progression in certain mission types are gated by KPM, and require a solution capable of nuking armies of enemy combatants in a matter of seconds (ESO is the worst offender). For this, we need a WF like Saryn. History also stands testament to the evolving PVE meta: at one point, Ash served in Saryn's role, as did Mirage, as did Mesa, as did a handful of other warframes. As time went on, each of them were nerfed, and the community abandoned the once tried and true classics and whored out the newest Kings and Queens of Genocide, until they too were nerfed, and succession of the title fell to the previous runner-up.

Now it's Saryn's turn. After her will likely be Volt, and after Volt, probably Equinox. The problem isn't necessarily the Warframes, it's the players who desire the easiest solution and abuse it to the point that it is a detriment to the rest of us.

I totally hear what you're saying and I wholeheartedly empathize with your sentiments; but given the current state of Warframe, we NEED solutions like Saryn. She isn't just a convenience for streamlining the grind, there are missions where her capabilities are a factored necessity. And even if we limit her capabilities to promote balanced play...

...Well, then everyone will just stop playing Saryn and whore out Volt next, and we're left with the exact same problem we've faced since Mesa was introduced to the game.

Edited September 5, 2018 by (XB1)Vile Slanders

[Gnlstorm]

Saryn never a threat to me...I able to adapt and changing my play - style whenever i like.

[EinheriarJudith]

4 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

Are we just going to nerf the top aoe frame until every aoe frame is s h i t?

you are being ridiculous. we can have high damage AOE but saryn's AOE was over buffed. as another poster said Overextended needs to get nerfed, or AOE needs range cap.

Edited September 5, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[(PSN)Private_Ventures]

I'll be honest here: there's not really anything wrong with Saryn, Limbo, old Ember, etc. The problem was more with the environment. Almost every single tileset is a confined area, giving these frames an infinite advantage. The solution, in my opinion, is, as someone said earlier, to add range falloff. But even further than that, give us more endgame. I'm glad they're making open world areas, but I'm mad as hell that they're such low level. They were discussing a MR lock on Eidolon before it released, and I loved that idea. But at this point, my best bet is just waiting until they have a Pluto or Eris open world, because I can guarantee Fortuna's gonna be Noob City too.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (XB1)Vile Slanders:

I totally hear what you're saying and I wholeheartedly empathize with your sentiments; but given the current state of Warframe, we NEED solutions like Saryn. She isn't just a convenience for streamlining the grind, there are missions where her capabilities are a factored necessity.

Beg to differ. People were going to round 8 in ESO quite easily before her rework and that is the closest i can think of that'd make her "neccessary" (if by "needed" you mean needed to accomplish things as effortlessly as possible).

vor einer Stunde schrieb (XB1)Vile Slanders:

This is what Saryn has ALWAYS done

It's true spores were strong even before the rework (and alot lazier in design), but still no match for the current damage potential. Like someone else said: Even without doing any damage at all the debuff spread of spores would make them one of the best 1 skills in the game already.

vor einer Stunde schrieb (XB1)Vile Slanders:

The problem isn't necessarily the Warframes, it's the players who desire the easiest solution and abuse it to the point that it is a detriment to the rest of us.

Sorry to disagree again, but: No. The problem lies in the design giving players the possibility to do so. Various degrees of egoism and walking the path of least resistance whenever possible is just human nature, it's DE's responsibility to design the game in a way that guarantees as much involvement and fun for as much players as possible in their own best interest.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Xolgys]

Am 4.9.2018 um 10:59 schrieb Sahansral:

Saryn spreads corrosive and viral all over the map/large radius. That alone would make her a worthy participant in any group.

The scaling damage on top of that is just too much.

Plus her EHP are quite good, too, so she's not even a glass cannon.

She is broken and needs two hits with the nerf bat to get inline with other damage frames like Ember.

saryn has never been a tank/really tanky since over 4 years ago and still is not today. shes deceptively durable if u use her molt right and have means to heal her, be it reg molt augment or other ways but especially the other options are available to everyone and later molt wont do a thing anymore. aside from that there is 0 durability on her. base stats alone dont make a tank, quite the opposite. inaros is durable by default but even he would bow to the dmg enemies deal later if he had no abilities to support his stats. same goes for all other typical tanks. they either have really good defensive abilites or a mix of these and good cc.

trinity, rhino, nidus, oberon, inaros, necros, chroma, (nyx, zephyr, valkyr) and even mesa, although shes not a tank she also has waaaaay more silly, potential EHP saryn. all of them laugh about saryns durability. low to mid level does hardly really matter when ur past it and have access to "endgame" and high level content. no good game is balanced around low-mid level content. it shouldnt be ignored due to the healthy progression curve a game should have but its not a base to use for balance. ember's nerf was mainly focused at the "fire and forget" type of ability her 4 was. any frame can solo stomp low-mid level content, u dont need ember for it, she was just super lazy and accordingly used by many. saryn is not "fire and forget" and neither a tank nor a super hard carry later. shes only good in a very specific range of enemy lvl, below that and spore isnt worth using, above it and u wont survive well. its difficult to wait for spores to scale up and when they then lose stacks due to outscaling enemies u again have to wait but by then ur dead the moment an enemy sneezes at u.

on another note: current saryn is weaker than the version before, if u knew how to play her and used the appropriate weapons/builds. her only issue was enemy armor, which she now doesnt have anymore but if u have a team with 4x CP that benefit for a group is rendered useless and u can put a better AoE DPS into the team.

there are still enough options which are absolutely strong, but due to whatever reason, be it hype, youtubers or whatnot people seem to only see saryn now and then a thread like this occurs where many people arent fair and not neutrally judging saryn imo. i rarely see ember anymore. the purpose of balance is not to kill-nerf a frame every few months and make it a literal "meta" rotation, because saryn isnt the meta for ESO. even with the reduced energy on every new wave, even with the limited use of 4s there are still enough legit AoE dps which can beat saryn and even melee only builds can. i specifically tried that with my valkyr and it works although this has the same weakness as mag, even worse, when multiple maps are just too big to effectively keep the kills up due to the kit/range limit on melee only so its not 100% reliable. mesa can though, quite easily actually. dont start crying about mesa now though, now that someone spelled it out...

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Kotsender_Quasimir:

It's true spores were strong even before the rework (and alot lazier in design), but still no match for the current damage potential. Like someone else said: Even without doing any damage at all the debuff spread of spores would make them one of the best 1 skills in the game already.

toxin procc transfer was waaaay stronger than current spores. in theory u can reach higher dmg, sure, but practically speaking u didnt have to wait a long time for silly toxin procc transfers. only armor was an issue but in a team there is 4x CP. solo is a different story but solo shes still no frame made for really high enemy levels so that topic is out of the window anyway. even teamplay still leaves an open discussion whether or not saryn is a good addition if she has no armor to remove anymore. other AoE dps frames dish dmg a lot faster, just taking mesa as an example, or blade storm ash. ash doesnt even need 4x CP with a bladestorm build so there's that on top...

Edited September 5, 2018 by Xydeth

[miomima]

52 минуты назад, Xydeth сказал:

saryn has never been a tank/really tanky since over 4 years ago and still is not today. shes deceptively durable if u use her molt right and have means to heal her, be it reg molt augment or other ways but especially the other options are available to everyone and later molt wont do a thing anymore. aside from that there is 0 durability on her. base stats alone dont make a tank, quite the opposite. inaros is durable by default but even he would bow to the dmg enemies deal later if he had no abilities to support his stats. same goes for all other typical tanks. they either have really good defensive abilites or a mix of these and good cc.

trinity, rhino, nidus, oberon, inaros, necros, chroma, (nyx, zephyr, valkyr) and even mesa, although shes not a tank she also has waaaaay more silly, potential EHP saryn. all of them laugh about saryns durability. low to mid level does hardly really matter when ur past it and have access to "endgame" and high level content. no good game is balanced around low-mid level content. it shouldnt be ignored due to the healthy progression curve a game should have but its not a base to use for balance. ember's nerf was mainly focused at the "fire and forget" type of ability her 4 was. any frame can solo stomp low-mid level content, u dont need ember for it, she was just super lazy and accordingly used by many. saryn is not "fire and forget" and neither a tank nor a super hard carry later. shes only good in a very specific range of enemy lvl, below that and spore isnt worth using, above it and u wont survive well. its difficult to wait for spores to scale up and when they then lose stacks due to outscaling enemies u again have to wait but by then ur dead the moment an enemy sneezes at u.

on another note: current saryn is weaker than the version before, if u knew how to play her and used the appropriate weapons/builds. her only issue was enemy armor, which she now doesnt have anymore but if u have a team with 4x CP that benefit for a group is rendered useless and u can put a better AoE DPS into the team.

there are still enough options which are absolutely strong, but due to whatever reason, be it hype, youtubers or whatnot people seem to only see saryn now and then a thread like this occurs where many people arent fair and not neutrally judging saryn imo. i rarely see ember anymore. the purpose of balance is not to kill-nerf a frame every few months and make it a literal "meta" rotation, because saryn isnt the meta for ESO. even with the reduced energy on every new wave, even with the limited use of 4s there are still enough legit AoE dps which can beat saryn and even melee only builds can. i specifically tried that with my valkyr and it works although this has the same weakness as mag, even worse, when multiple maps are just too big to effectively keep the kills up due to the kit/range limit on melee only so its not 100% reliable. mesa can though, quite easily actually. dont start crying about mesa now though, now that someone spelled it out...

 

toxin procc transfer was waaaay stronger than current spores. in theory u can reach higher dmg, sure, but practically speaking u didnt have to wait a long time for silly toxin procc transfers. only armor was an issue but in a team there is 4x CP. solo is a different story but solo shes still no frame made for really high enemy levels so that topic is out of the window anyway. even teamplay still leaves an open discussion whether or not saryn is a good addition if she has no armor to remove anymore. other AoE dps frames dish dmg a lot faster, just taking mesa as an example, or blade storm ash. ash doesnt even need 4x CP with a bladestorm build so there's that on top...

Mesa have 95% damage reduction against range only, Saryn with umbral mods have ~75% from armor, and 90% on top of that from weapon blocking, which combines into 97,5% against any frontal damage, and she can over heal herself and draw agro with molt (which is not that good since you can use arcane on operator). On Low levels you dont even need spores - everyone till level 40-50 dies from miasma alone, and spores is just second ultimative ability, you cast it on enemy and hes dead, just the matter of time.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

3 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Beg to differ. People were going to round 8 in ESO quite easily before her rework and that is the closest i can think of that'd make her "neccessary" (if by "needed" you mean needed to accomplish things as effortlessly as possible).

It's true spores were strong even before the rework (and alot lazier in design), but still no match for the current damage potential. Like someone else said: Even without doing any damage at all the debuff spread of spores would make them one of the best 1 skills in the game already.

Sorry to disagree again, but: No. The problem lies in the design giving players the possibility to do so. Various degrees of egoism and walking the path of least resistance whenever possible is just human nature, it's DE's responsibility to design the game in a way that guarantees as much involvement and fun for as much players as possible in their own best interest.

So what's your solution for alleviating the KPM Gap? Because as I stated before, you remove Saryn from the equation, everyone is just going to use Volt. Nerf Volt, Equinox takes lead until she's nerfed; then the same happens to Mesa; and then Revenant follows suit; and then Nidus; and so and so on, until every single Warframe feels and plays like an exact replica of each other, and the game is no longer entertaining for anyone.

Oh, and it isn't DE responsibility to design a game that guarantees as much involvement and fun for as many players as possible; it's just recommended that they do so. Digital Extremes is a business, not a charity drive. Their only responsibility as a business is making a buck. If they want to eschew the industrial methods of EA and Activision, then I'll throw my money at them and applaud them for taking it; but I'm not so naive as to assume that their first priority is to anyone other than themselves.

Edited September 5, 2018 by (XB1)Vile Slanders

[felixsylvaris]

We need Ember buff just to burn heresy spread in this topic.

Saryn is not that popular, but she fits very well in ESO, and... there is not much to do other than eso. When Fortuna hits live will Saryn still be popular... to some degree yes, but bounties are not saryn friendly, since you need to wait a couple seconds before reaching high spores damage, and by this time enemies are dead just from weapons shots. What is happening that part of community is just picking frame to blame for everything.. It is never ending process, since there will be always some best dps to nerf, next time it will be your favorite frame, or just mag/ember it is always good time to nerf mag/ember.

The problem with Saryn and only this, is that Spores max damage does not scale with abilllity power. You can have 100% AP and your spores will still reach 3k damage. Which leaves space for defensive mods or utility. Overextend Steel Fiber, Regenerative Molt, Rage... since you dont need AP as much, and still can do very good damage with some gameplay. TO reach 3k spores someone need to pop the spores, or you need to recast them here and there. 100k max damage on spores need to be changed, to base value similar of what other frames do, and scaling with abillity power.

Like max 300*AP. 300 is popular value for 25e abillities.

Will that wipe out Saryn. Not. Wiping out Saryn is just smashing part of players who like frame with just dps, not fancy mix of immortality, cc, buffs, and a bit of everything.

However if Saryn need to invest in AP that would be more hard choices of range, killing speed, survivabillity, energy managment. So she will drop in popularity, and volt, mesa, equinox will rise, so we can then shout for nerfing them.

 

 

 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Vile Slanders:

So what's your solution for alleviating the KPM Gap? Because as I stated before, you remove Saryn from the equation, everyone is just going to use Volt. Nerf Volt, Equinox takes lead until she's nerfed; then the same happens to Mesa; and then Revenant follows suit; and then Nidus; and so and so on, until every single Warframe feels and plays like an exact replica of each other, and the game is no longer entertaining for anyone.

I'm not against DPS ults in general. I think the best idea to keep those somewhat in check would be to fundamentally rework / fix the energy system:

More flexible skill costs could be a means to balance damage potentials.

From what we have tho regarding the frames you mentioned: Mesa's damage output is also on the OP side in my book, especially against certain bosses, but at least she needs LOS, just like Ash so i don't see them disrupting fellow players' engagement as much in ESO at least. Revenant can't ult 24/7 thanks to the energy drain, which at least to me feels about right atm (the damage output isn't that enormous either). Volt's recent Discharge buff should just be reverted, it was good enough before and he actually was one (and arguably still is) of the most versatile frames imo. Equinox needs some time to ramp up her damage potential so she's not that disruptive either, tho i'd like her endless scaling to be looked at, it doesn't make sense to me in a game with endless modes that are supposed to force you out at some point. I don't see how Nidus fits into the equation at all tbh.

Yes, there will always be an optimal solution to certain mission types (among other things because those tend to be designed somewhat one-sided) but no, closing the gaps to a degree would not result in every frame playing the same at all, that's just hyperbole / slippery slope.

vor 27 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Vile Slanders:

Oh, and it isn't DE responsibility to design a game that guarantees as much involvement and fun for as many players as possible; it's just recommended that they do so. Digital Extremes is a business, not a charity drive. Their only responsibility as a business is making a buck. If they want to eschew the industrial methods of EA and Activision, then I'll throw my money at them and applaud them for taking it; but I'm not so naive as to assume that their first priority is to anyone other than themselves.

Note how i said "in their own best interest". Variety and enjoyability make for a quality product which in turn attracts more potential customers and holds the ones they have. Also i do believe they have a certain vision about their brainchild outside of generating profit and various reworks in the past showed it. They have a rich history of fixing OP abilities, and this will be just another one of those, just you wait ;).

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

20 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

They have a rich history of fixing OP abilities, and this will be just another one of those, just you wait ;).

I never said it wouldn't be; I merely stated that it wouldn't fix the problem. This has been going on for years, as you've clarified with your denotation of a "a rich history".

Which just goes to show that this problem has been ongoing, and we are no closer to establishing a permanent resolution than we were when Mesa was first released. Where you see a rich history of accomplishments, I see a downwards trend of failures with no signs of abating from its current trajectory.

53 minutes ago, (XB1)Vile Slanders said:

it's DE's responsibility to design the game in a way that guarantees as much involvement and fun for as much players as possible in their own best interest.

That's a bit of a run on sentence. Forgive me for misinterpreting the syntax.

Edited September 5, 2018 by (XB1)Vile Slanders

[Xolgys]

vor einer Stunde schrieb miomima:

Mesa have 95% damage reduction against range only, Saryn with umbral mods have ~75% from armor, and 90% on top of that from weapon blocking, which combines into 97,5% against any frontal damage, and she can over heal herself and draw agro with molt (which is not that good since you can use arcane on operator). On Low levels you dont even need spores - everyone till level 40-50 dies from miasma alone, and spores is just second ultimative ability, you cast it on enemy and hes dead, just the matter of time.

and all of this is still not making her a tank. she cant overheal herself, she can only restore her own max health pool but in low lv content u dont need reg molt and even later there are alternatives where one can argue that its a wasted slot because it wont outheal incoming dmg anyway at that point so the alternatives are either totally sufficing or just as pointless as reg molt. if u face tank dmg like that to begin with ur playing saryn wrong anyway because all molt is is a distraction. its not a tool to make u tanky with reg molt nor is it a substitue tank ability. its more of an emergency button with the move speed, procc removal and the distraction afterwards, u cant rely on it because enemies can still focus u even if a molt is around.

lv 50 heavy armored units dont die from miasma alone. maybe with a max power strenght build but then ur whole build is messed up i guess since strenght alone is not worth it on saryn. sure go for it if u like it...but it would be highly subjective to say the least. if u go for double dmg then u did use spore which makes ur comment invalid as is regardless. also miasma literally is only to CC and procc viral later in the game. the dmg part is nearly pointless unless an enemy has 0 armor. viral only works well vs some flesh types, for anything else its not #1 choice unless u have a slash/viral combination. sure, halving max health works always, but again, then u are not prioritizing the dmg part but only the viral procc part of miasma and even when u want to rely on spore 100%, theoretically speaking, then its still only the viral procc. they could as well dropp miasma to 100dmg per second and increase the stun to 10 seconds plus the viral procc and reduce energy cost to 50 and instead give spore a 50 base energy cost too, wouldnt matter. the dmg part of miasma is a bonus, saryn doesnt need it as she currently is. the lvl range where shes really good doesnt require another dmg source besides spore. below that enemies die quickly anyway so 1 spore spread is mostly a better miasma to begin with.

later an enemy dies due to sporesooner or later surely, true...but warframe is not a game where u can wait 1h for an enemy to drop and when we compare abilities energy cost/max possible dmg is not a way to rate because TIME is way more important than that. if we ignored time and only took energy cost in relation to max possible dmg as a basis to judge then mesa would beat saryn just the same. now what about eternal war for valkyr ? u can do a LOT with only melee, as i said melee valkyr can carry ESO pretty damn well on her own. u cast it once and unless a nullie gets u...u have eternity to deal dmg with ur melee and whilst its ur melee u get some good attack speed. time is way more important than energy cost, especially since we have many ways to get energy back, most reliably due to zenurik or a friendly trinity.

vor 36 Minuten schrieb felixsylvaris:

We need Ember buff just to burn heresy spread in this topic.

Saryn is not that popular, but she fits very well in ESO, and [...]

this is what ive been mentioning so many times. ESO is a perfect condition for her. saryn is a rare sight anywhere else. how can people seriously judge a frame just based on 1 perfect situation without taking anything else and especially the issues into account...

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Xydeth

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Vile Slanders:

Which just goes to show that this problem has been ongoing, and we are no closer to establishing a permanent resolution than we were when Mesa was first released. Where you see a rich history of accomplishments, I see a downwards trend of failures with no signs of abating from its current trajectory.

Well, on this at least we can agree: They're acting kinda schizo about balancing issues in general and yes, it's an old trend. Not to bash them by any means but i'd be really glad to see them actually testing their stuff more before they release it, so much frustration / disappointment could be averted. So much better to release something a bit underwhelming and buff it subsequently than the other way around, it'll always leave a better impression psychologically speaking. I mean according to steam sale charts they're financially so successful you can't tell me they couldn't afford to pay someone to stand in simulacrum, fully modded, and spam 4 for 2 minutes or so once in a while to see if everything immediately vaporizes or not, because this is literally all it would have taken to see that Limbo's old-new cataclym (nerfed again shortly after) wasn't that great of an idea for his 1st big rework back then. Just a random example but yeah, i guess you see what i mean.

There's also some people claiming corrupted mods broke the game and indeed, if you look at them they aren't really designed consistently at all in terms of win/lose ratio.

Anyway there's a thousand ways to go about it really but (as far as damage skills go) i still favour fixing energy as a whole as to me this would mean tackling things at the root and would allow ults to still be ults, just not as spammable (but thereby probably even more satisfying to use).

vor 18 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Vile Slanders:

Forgive me for misinterpreting the syntax.

All cool! 🙂 English is not my native language so my syntax might well be unneccessarily convoluted (if not plain incorrect) at times, so if anything i should apologize ;).