Trinity 9.8: Feedback Thread

[BadAsylum]

remove WoL and give Trinity some kind of fun cc/debuff movement ability remember the  keyword here is "fun",revert EV and  make Link usable in the air as well (ninjas right) Blessing is fine.

[Yefrign]

Althix, on 10 Sept 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

yes you are right of course. more to say these are few of the factors why you rarely see trinity for let say ED or in game in general. because there are frames that just do a better job. and frames that are more useful to party.

because ev is very optional. healing and blessing are optional as well because party do not take damage and it is easier to die on save zone rather that have a party spot wasted for trinity.

and with last changes actually made it worse. Trinity as tank and support back to U7 was amazing. it was a master piece of a frame. and when de made this survival mode it was like... a new beginning.

As it now i can't really say how good or bad EV will do on survival, i can only speculate on regular gameplay and it's not very promising.

WoL is still useless. Link is murdered in it's sleep. and all we have left is blessing.

Trinity need in change after this nerf. And honestly i think she is in dire need for total redesign.

couldn't agree more +1

[Aethermancer]

I like the analysis and many of the suggestions here and I hope we have Scott's ear. I appreciate the effort put forward by the devs, and I understand that being human mistakes are inevitable.

These changes are a huge mistake. And fail to address the core problems with Trinity.

The problems with Trinity were, and I argue still persist to be: (1 That she was, and still is, a frame with 2 abilities. 2) She's intended to be a support role in a game where support isn't really necessary.

1)Blessing is such a powerful standalone ability that any crossover with other abilities in her kit will render them at best inefficient or clutch, and at worst entirely irrelevant. Trinity game-play essentially begins and ends at using EV to chain-cast Blessing. That's it.

The full heal that Blessing provides makes WoL woefully ineffective. The old iteration was entirely worthless, and most Trinitys didn't even bother giving it a slot. The new iteration is still mechanically bad, except the survivability it can give to an EV target. The only real usefulness it provides is forced synergy with another ability. The healing really isn't necessary outside of emergency situations, and in almost every case the instant heal+invulnerability from Blessing far outweighs any contribution WoL can make. That isn't even considering that a skilled Trinity can have 100% up-time of Blessing in combat, making damage a non-factor.

The invulnerability provided by Blessing made the invulnerability provided by the old Link pretty irrelevant and useless outside of really rare circumstances. The new Link's damage reduction is pathetic (only useful at really early levels) and the damage is negligible (even if you have a large number of targets attacking you). Again, the strength of the ability isnt from its core mechanics, but synergy with another ability. The only real use it has is for a pittance of damage and cc immunity while you have blessing active. That's it.

In a game with abundant energy where Ultimate abilities can be spammed ad nauseum Blessing is just going to outclass any other healing, damage reduction, or invulnerability ability in Trinity's kit. Period. It was stupidly easy to have Blessing permanently up in a mission with the old EV, and even with the changes (Read: Nerfs) to it's still entirely possible. Trinity needs new abilities. DIFFERENT abilities.
 

And now on to problem 2)Trinity is intended to fill a support role in a game where support feels largely out of place.

First thing I'm going to say is I love playing Trinity and pre-changes she was my favorite frame. The issue I have is the core of that fun came from running around invulnerable. The other support aspects of her kit felt tacked on or unnecessary most of the time. Of course I felt useful in games where my group properly utilized EV and was able to spam abilities non-stop, was able to revive someone while invulnerable, or in high-level missions where Blessing prevented what would have otherwise been inevitable deaths...But other than that most of my games were spent Spamming EV for myself into Link or Blessing and annihilating hordes of enemies with my Torid/Ogris without worry of death, or standing toe-to-toe with a Boss or Toxic Ancient just because I could.

I always found it perplexing that Warframe's "Support Frame" played better as a lone wolf than a team-player. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I always branded support as being team oriented. In a group Trinity doesn't bring anything to the table that is unique or necessary. Her usefulness to a group is always situational. On paper healing, permanent team-invulnerability, and unlimited energy sounds amazing and brokenly overpowered, but really it isn't. Sure she is the only frame capable of healing and making her team invulnerable, but really those abilities are just damage avoidance. Healing is also completely reactive, meaning it's worthless if your team isn't taking damage. CC abilities fill the same role but are proactive (meaning it's going to almost always contribute in combat), and the CC oriented frames are generally more desirable because they bring damage to the table, or make it easier for the team to deal damage effectively. Damage is king in Warframe, and while I'm not saying that Trinity needs damaging abilities (I'm really not) it's the elephant in the room regarding frame design. Most people want high-octane gameplay, and fast mission clear times. The most effective way to do that now is to front-load tons of damage. Support is an afterthought, because to justify having support take up a slot, it needs to contribute as much if not more to the group than another damage-dealing frame would.

Trinity didn't, and the changes don't address that problem. The problems weren't necessarily with Trinity's kit as much as they are with core elements of the game's design. I can understand why the developers might be struggling to find a good place for Trinity. Damage is so inconsequential in this game as to make healing pointless and invulnerability only useful in emergencies. Just about all of it is avoidable and in most cases mobs die before they even get to throw a punch back our way. Even when damage is taken, it feels very much all-or-nothing. At low levels it feels like a tickle, and at high levels you can be burned down in a second or two very easily. Even if for some reason you die, any team-mate can revive you an unlimited number of times, and you come back with full health and shields. When damage and death hold no weight, then a support frame oriented around healing and invulnerability is going to feel weak. But what about Energy Vampire? Well, outside of high-level defense/survival missions I've never had a problem with energy levels, and if your team isn't using a lot of energy it can feel like an empty slot as well. Blue orbs drop like candy and the abundance of the Energy Siphon Aura only compounds the situation. In most circumstances a Nyx, Nova, Frost, or Vauban with Energy Siphon will contribute more to a group than Trinity.

So, DE, What can be done about Trinity? I think when you have a support frame that can give her team massive amounts of energy and make them permanently invulnerable, yet that frame is still unpopular and unnecessary to the point you're considering significant changes, it sends a clear message. Maybe the support isn't what you should focus on. EV (I prefer the old version instead of the new one) and Blessing are much more than enough in the support department. Even if Blessing was nerfed just to be a health/shield restore it would be more than enough. Focus on the other strengths/fun aspects that Trinity had (Invulnerability/Lone-Wolf Play) while perhaps adding proactive support like CC (Real CC, not single target), or something that enables her team-mates to do more damage (Armor Debuff, or % damage taken increase?) and she'll be golden.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Aethermancer

[GTG3000]

@Aethermancer

 

Whoah, that was quite a read. Although I agree with some of it, I have to say that I have to disagree - Trinity is pretty simple to find a place for. Sure, if you're playing with people THAT good you're going to feel vastly uneeded, but that wasn't my experience.

 

Old Trinity had fun and interesting gameplay, be that lone wolf style of play, or running with your team, painting targets for them. In my opinion, that gamepla is what DE should aim for - a frame that is there for when you finally need that help. And that would require old link. As well as an actual rework to Blessing - as I suggested, it could be turned into an emergency ability to prevent spamming, or into a long-range revive, both with cooldowns.

 

Trinity is a support. Sure supports aren't in terrible need of in the game, but that doesn't mean that they should be scrapped completely. Supports aren't always terribly popular, and they are rarely as fun as Trin used to be, and that is what I would prioritize. If Trinity isn't supportive enough, then her supportive abilities need a buff. Adding AoE to EV would be a very appreciated change, if not for the execution. WoL could be turned into a pulse from Trinity, healing health and adding an absorb sheld between it and shield while debuffing enemy armour. You bet then it would be popular as hell, but I will never agree that Trinity doesn't need her link. Trinity IS link, no matter how broken Blessing outshines it.

[Xelchon]

So, DE, What can be done about Trinity? I think when you have a support frame that can give her team massive amounts of energy and make them permanently invulnerable, yet that frame is still unpopular and unnecessary to the point you're considering significant changes, it sends a clear message. Maybe the support isn't what you should focus on. EV (I prefer the old version instead of the new one) and Blessing are much more than enough in the support department. Even if Blessing was nerfed just to be a health/shield restore it would be more than enough. Focus on the other strengths/fun aspects that Trinity had (Invulnerability/Lone-Wolf Play) while perhaps adding proactive support like CC (Real CC, not single target), or something that enables her team-mates to do more damage (Armor Debuff, or % damage taken increase?) and she'll be golden.

 

 

Exactly what I was saying in my first post about Trinity abilities. Trinity must be able to support/buff their squads; elevate them a level or two in efficiency and endurance; that's what MMO players call "support" class. I'm sorry to say that Trinity is not one of the sort.

[Xelchon]

Trinity is a support. Sure supports aren't in terrible need of in the game, but that doesn't mean that they should be scrapped completely. Supports aren't always terribly popular, and they are rarely as fun as Trin used to be, and that is what I would prioritize. If Trinity isn't supportive enough, then her supportive abilities need a buff. Adding AoE to EV would be a very appreciated change, if not for the execution. WoL could be turned into a pulse from Trinity, healing health and adding an absorb sheld between it and shield while debuffing enemy armour. You bet then it would be popular as hell, but I will never agree that Trinity doesn't need her link. Trinity IS link, no matter how broken Blessing outshines it.

 

 

I don't agree. A warframe shouldn't be about a single skill, or even two. The fact that this comment is made is why we're having this debate; and why there must be drastic changes.

[GTG3000]

I don't agree. A warframe shouldn't be about a single skill, or even two. The fact that this comment is made is why we're having this debate; and why there must be drastic changes.

 

Well, if warframe is about one skill, then it means that other skills need fixing. So far the best she brought to the table was Link+EV combo, which allowed her to be on par with the team. 

 

Moreover, the reason I'm standing for the return of old link is because it allowed trinity to be played drastically different from other frames, which is, in my opinion, completely awesome and should not be squandered. I would absolutely welcome changes to WoL, EV, Blessing, but link was where it should have been, and changing it was short-sighted at least.

 

As been already said in this thread, warframe isn't exactly a game where a healer is absolutely required, nor a game where there is a terrible shortage of energy. Previous iteration of Trin averted being useless in certain situations when her other abilities are not needed by having Link, which allowed her to deal damage/hack uninterrupded in the middle of it/resurrect with no danger. Okay, current one has blessing, but it is given to whole team, costs more, and doesn't cancel out enemy CC. 

 

Cnahge of EV to AoE rather than "everyone shoots for themselves" was a welcome one, and I assure you it would make it a lot more useful to the team if it was "Same EV, but energy for everyone". 

 

I do not really think that trinity needs to have any CC or damage, but WoL could be changed into a pulsating aura for trinity, sort of like EV is now, that would heal/overheal friends and debuff enemy armour.

 

And as for Blessing, it needs someone to turn it into the emergency power it is. And not just a cooldown slapped over the team invincibility.

 

DE had a pretty good idea for what kind of powers the most basic allround support in this game should have, but only one that was implemented correctly was link. Sure it could use multitargetting, but it worked very well, unlike her three other powers that absolutely require reworks, even now.

[DarkLizalfos]

Well of Life's target was constantly killed by people with full health. So now the target won't go down so easy and is lifted up. Great. Until you remember nobody seems to care about their health because they can just boost Shields.

Energy Vampire had the same problem. Enemy died before everyone else got some, but somehow it got the push towards being a fountain spell. Which would be fine if you didn't need to worry about killing an enemy. Which, depending on if they are within sight, is extremely likely to happen.

Link's change was definitely on the to-do list, After Rhino it was obvious who was next. People were immediately crying out about Trinity(and Ember) being a better damage sink. The shared damage is what I expected but the multiple enemy targeting was a  happy surprise. I am kind of worried the damage reduction won't be enough to pull the weight when enemies start bursting down shields in half a volley.(Hades' Moa: Facemelter) Her double D's should be able to help cover her for this, though. Right?

Blessing animates much faster? Love it! I can tell when I'm Invincible? I love it so much I want to dance a jig. What the hell is a jig? IDK. While I'm searching that, you can reread your reasons for invincibility being removed elsewhere. Then wonder if some other kind of blessing could fit into the frame better. Maybe an increase in team parameters. Maximum health/shields and armor get increased and slowly whittle back down over time. Raised resistance to stagger/knockdowns. Or maybe just taking the equipped Aura effects of nearby allies and amping them up. I just want something that screams out "I am Trinity! Check out my paddle butt!"

Armor. Statwise, the only fault. I have no clue why she would be so frail. With D's like this she deserves to be a little bit sturdier. I want her to fight alongside the team. Not hide behind them.

[mblmg]

The other changes are okay but Link is basically useless now.

[GTG3000]

@DarkLizalfos

 

Well, Link helped her to fight alongside team aplenty, didn't it?

 

Also, fun fact - people who think that everything is alright don't go whining on forums. People screaming out were at best not too familiar with the frame, and the current state of both Ember and Trin shows exactly that - some frames DO need those 'godmode' abilities, because either that stands between them and enemies, or all three teammates and maybe a wall just to be sure. Rhinos' IS was OP because rhino had quite a set of abilities besides godmode to prolong his life. Like his rediculous AoE CC or even the knockdown Charge. Trinity, on the other side, has nothing like that. You can restore health and energy til the end of time, but trinity has no CC or Damage that could save her from a crowd. And don't say "she's a support, she's supposed to hide behind", such frame will be left with no use at all.

 

I said it once, I said it twice, and I keep on saying this - invulnerability is not OP when it's an absolute requirement. Both Ember and Trinity are flimsy and easy to bring down, and both require to be in the frail, Ember because her abilities are close-range and Trinity because she hasn't and shouldn't have any other choice but to use her guns if she wants to aid the team in terms of damage output. She can have debuff, she can have heals and energy restores, but not damage or CC.

[Andoryuu]

There is a lots of interesting ideas in this thread. Maybe something like this would please a lots of people?

 

WoL - Trinity gets aura that periodically restores shields and health in AoE around her.

EV - Either the old effect but with energy being distributed over the whole team or current effect but with AoE energy wave on target's death and effect not being affected by duration mods.

 

This WoL and EV are ideas repeated in this whole thread.

 

 

"Link" - Invulnerability and immunity to CC but Trinity can't attack during the whole duration.

 

Many people here said they used Link mainly as a safe ress/hack skill. This would make it possible again while limiting it's offensive use as a trade-off.

 

 

Blessing - Heals the whole team, increases their maximum shields and health and gives them high damage resistance. Health and shields over the normal maximum are lost after the effect ends.

 

Like some people said, permanent invulnerability for whole team is probably too powerful and neutralizes any damage ramp up from high level mobs. Damage resistance instead of complete negation means you still need healing from WoL against really high level mobs. Higher effective HP also means there is more time for WoL to take effect.

 

 

Probably won't get ingame but what do you think?

Edited September 11, 2013 by Andoryuu

[GTG3000]

Those are good ideas, but link was so useful because it allowed Trinity to be on par with the team, and taking away ability to damage while it's active won't really help that.

[BenHoliday]

Having played with the new skills, I actually like WoL. It's not perfect, but it's actually useful from time to time, and the old version was not useful ever.

 

As for EV being worthless, its use now is indeed counter-intuitive; it works nearly as effectively on bosses as before, but works on normal enemies quite well if you use WoL followed by EV. It's not perfect either, but to me it seems more useful than the previous EV against non-boss enemies. Of course, Power Duration is still detrimental to this ability, but hopefully that will be fixed one way or another.

 

As for Link, I don't like the new version, but I understand why the old version was OP (even though that's not the way I used it.) Blessing is now my panic button, and that works just as fine as ever.

 

 

[perempt]

 

this setup, can keep a room clear indefinitely in defence missions. better than nova ult

the main component is Rage mod. I got it after just 2 tries of transmuting.

converts dmg to health to energy. u stand in torid poison and u get energy, make sure to cast blessing before u die at around ~200 hp. wait. that means u can keep your team perma invincible...

 

use vigor and vitality + physique for max HP so u can tank the poison to regen energy, stand in 1 spot and cast link/ blessing. you dont need power duration cause u have infinite energy anyway and it will take quite a while to run out of ammo for torid.

 

people who say trinity is useless, its just a different playstyle and pace now. far from being useless. as far as im concerned trinity is even more OP now.

[GTG3000]

She is not useless, she is tricky and not fun.

 

Not to mention that now you need to outfit a support as a tank (all dat health + damage to energy) rather than a caster (continuity/flow/streamline/stretch/ES). Not to mention that you just said that she works with, what, one or two guns in the game now? 

 

Although, of course, I can't agree that you, indeed, have a working solution. And, as previous Trinity have shown, this frame isn't going to be more popular if her build is a solution.

 

You see, previous abilities were pretty intuitive to use. You pop Link - you can stop thinking about damage, you put EV - you get energy. Now it's more like "pop Blessing, pop Link, look at your energy bar, find target, pop WoL, put EV, shout at shade, wait for energy, renew link, forget about blessing, get to half health before you remember about it..." (yes, that's exagerrated, meh). You can live with all the changes, but it's better if you just go in and have fun instead of feeling like trying to make a minmax character of a crosclass you never played before as with half the party trying to confuse you and gm giggling as he imagines how big of a rock will ruin all your efforts.

 

I already said everything I wanted to say about Trinity about... ten times by now. We need old link, and we need proper EV. And to hell with WoL and Blessing.

[RedFusion]

After reading a lot of the feedback and leveling up Trinity to 30 under purely the new changes (no previous experiences to compare to), there are several obvious situations that needs reworking.

 

1: Well of Life

The intent behind this is obvious, single target CC, makes the target more resilient so players can shoot it for health. In that regard, it works perfectly as intended. 

Issues:

This game is, as many players have said, very fast paced. Having a sitting Well is good for drawn out fights, but not for the fast movement that (most) players need to get through trash mobs. There are very few instances outside of a boss fight where this skill has functionality other than as CC for an elite. 

Suggestions:

Several ideas put forward were: casting on a player, casting on self, creating an object (physical Well) that pulses out life or can be shot, what have you. My idea is to have it be cast-on-self, and pulse life similarly to EV. Because the intent is now to create CC with this ability, each pulse could create a stagger shockwave, or knockback effect to stun enemies briefly. If this skill also increased the armor of Trinity, it would enable Trinity to be a front-line medic rather than a passive, behind-the-action player, which I think would keep people more involved with the frame. This would also mean you would stay with your team or with the important/risky players, and give them a reason to not leave you behind or alone. That said, there would be no need to make this an "OMG_GODMODE_TANK" skill, especially at 25 energy cast. Also, with the upcoming armor change, some other means of damage reduction might be preferred.

 

2: Energy Vampire

The intent is to create a DoT which also pulses set amounts of energy out at established intervals over a period of time. As a dot, it seems to deal awesome damage to bosses.

Issues and Suggestions:

As far as pulses go, I don't really have a problem with this other than it is definitely NOT working as intended with increased duration mods. That is worthy of a hotfix, in my opinion. There is no reason that sort of mod should hurt that skill rather than help it, and it would be completely logical to leave the intervals the same and change the number of pulses to match the duration, rather than the other way around. 

As for use on individual enemies; if there is a large enough group to be needing an energy source, you can find a target that doesn't typically get mowed down instantly. If there isn't a large group, you're probably not in too much trouble. That said, "wasting energy" by casting followed by immediate death can be an issue. I'd think death of target should release the equivalent of 1 pulse of energy, so that you get some return for your poor choice of target selection or trigger-happy teammates.

 

3: Link

I watched the videos of how it used to be. When learned (which looked tricky and definitely needed skill), it made the game very easy for Trinity using just EV and Link. See: Ogris + Link at point blank. 

Issues:

Damage mitigation is way too low for higher scaled enemies. You can still be 1-or-2 shot by upper level enemies without blessing active. This may be fixed by the new armor system (I can't know), but I doubt it will be. 

Suggestions:

A higher damage reduction would definitely be needed in its current form. I would also throw out the suggestion that it link to the nearest target, and any damage dealt to you -OR- the target be distributed (in some form) in an AoE fashion to nearby enemies. I personally like the idea of energy waves coming out of you/linked enemy and hitting nearby enemies. As it is however, Blessing is nearly a must-have for this skill to function as a damage output.

 

4: Blessing

For the most part, I think this skill works very much as intended. My only problem with it is that I can't really tell who or what is currently invincible. Granted I'm on the lowest graphics settings (laptop), but that is my biggest complaint about the skill really. 

 

 

 

As people have said, some aspects of it might just need to be scrapped and reworked altogether before a significant number of people are happy. As one post above pointed out, it's still quite possible to make brokenly good skill combinations due to how blessing works (see Torid/Rage). But this Frame reworking definitely needs a little more tweaking before moving on.

[_BlackReaper_]

Admittedly, I have not read everything in this thread since my first post; I just do not have the time/patience. However, after playing Trinity a fair deal more since the patch I wanted to post a follow-up. 

 

WoL: I find myself using this in conjunction with EV often in order to prevent my EV target (which always has to be a heavy) from getting instantly killed by my team. I often find that it is not worth it to use this for much else as the fast-paced nature of the game prevents it. I would rather cast blessing once to heal my team, then have to cast WoL 2+ times and hope whichever team member who needs health shoots the target. I still stand by first suggestion of making Trinity the WoL, having health/shield regen radiate from her. The CC is nice, and I have used it multiple times to save a pod, but it is something I can do without.

 

EV: It appears that duration mods make this act wonky, and killing the target (which I have limited control over) pre-maturely hurts everyone. When a target has WoL on it, EV is sometimes the best way to kill the target without expending a lot of ammo. The only change I would make is either: a) have EV move to a new target within x/x/x/x meters upon target death, or b) upon target death any remaining energy regen pulses are pulsed out.

 

Link: I do not use Link in its current form; the damage mitigation is low and damage dealt, assuming the Trinity is even being shot at (unlikely, especially if a Rhino with Iron Skin is around), is low. For just a bit more energy I would rather use Blessing. Trinity is an endurance frame, meant to keep the squad alive at the expense of being able to do damage via abilities. This version of Link does not fit this role.

 

Blessing: The new change makes this a much better ability, and I am happy enough with it as is. However, personally, I still think the invulnerability should happen immediately, with the heal happening at the end of the cast animation. But, whatever.

[GTG3000]

@SGAnthony 

 

The thread was so far

 

Everyone : No, this wasn't a good fix, I suggest *suggests what everyone else suggested with a bit of change*

GTG3000 : That's a nice suggestion, but Link needs to be as it used to be

Some guy : I, with all my authority and awesome wordyness, declare that this frame, indeed, needs another rework.

GTG3000 : That's a nice suggestion, but Link needs to be as it used to be

Somoene : Hey everyone, I like Trinity as she is now, and I tell you she is very playable! Pehaps you could use her like this *explains*

GTG3000 : That's a nice suggestion, but Link needs to be as it used to be

Another guy : Well, I played more, and yeah, old Trinity was way more fun. Maybe revert?

GTG3000 : That's a nice suggestion, but Link needs to be as it used to be

 

Completely support the Trinity-centric WoL. I would suggest making it debuff enemies too, maybe.

 

EV would be a lot nicer if it released all it's energy ondemand indeed.

 

Blessing is op and I dunno.

 

Overall, that's a nice suggestion, but Link needs to be as it used to be.

 

 

@Redfusion

 

Very nice and detailed post, but link needs to be as it used to be. (imma parrot, yay!)

 

WoL certainly requires another rework to move it further away from concept of healthleech for everyone. Healing aura or even just a healing pulse would be very much better.

 

Sometimes, you just need to see the whole world burn. And when in doubt, you use ulti. That's how a plenty of players go, and even if you did have a heavy in that crowd, it's likely to go down very quickly, being a priority target and all. That's why just having old EV but with AoE would be much better.

 

Link, well... It needs to be as it used to be. It took a bit of skill to use properly, but it rewarded greatly. It allowed Trinity to endure as much as needed as well as be on par with the rest of the team. LIke I said already many, many times, invulnerability isn't broken if it is an energy-hungry way of keeping an otherwise-flimsy support alive and helping.

 

Blessing is blessing, what have you.

[WarG0d]

I couldn't stand playing the previous trinity simply because I couldn't use powers due to the "power in use" cooldowns now the actually have a duration and some better utility

 

Well of life - - even if you never take hp damage, it's awesome for the single fact that it instantly removes an enemy from play. Now you could simply disable a heavy surrounded by its minions, mop up the little guys and then deal with the heavy on your terms.

 

EV is impracticable for energy recovery purposes when not used in conjunction with WoL, so it forces the player to use it as a 50e damage ability or as a 75e energy recovery ability  -- could be better

 

The new link isn't anywhere as bad as people make it out to be the damage reduction is enough felt like a reskinned hand me down from ember but with more range -- and that a very good thing

 

Blessing is well...Blessing

 

I like the changes to trinity but could something be done about that lobster tail? Not asking anything drastic just replacing it with one or two of those other spines that make up her skirt would be superb.

Edited September 11, 2013 by WarG0d

[GTG3000]

It's bad not only on it's own, but also because it sets a course for the further frame development we don't like. Trinity shouldn't be a damagger, we have plenty of those and damage isn't what we liked her for. Of course it's nice that she gets new fans, but she shouldn't achieve new crowd by ditching the old one.

Edited September 11, 2013 by GTG3000

[L7ON]

She is not useless, she is tricky and not fun.

 

Not to mention that now you need to outfit a support as a tank (all dat health + damage to energy) rather than a caster (continuity/flow/streamline/stretch/ES). Not to mention that you just said that she works with, what, one or two guns in the game now? 

 

Although, of course, I can't agree that you, indeed, have a working solution. And, as previous Trinity have shown, this frame isn't going to be more popular if her build is a solution.

 

You see, previous abilities were pretty intuitive to use. You pop Link - you can stop thinking about damage, you put EV - you get energy. Now it's more like "pop Blessing, pop Link, look at your energy bar, find target, pop WoL, put EV, shout at shade, wait for energy, renew link, forget about blessing, get to half health before you remember about it..." (yes, that's exagerrated, meh). You can live with all the changes, but it's better if you just go in and have fun instead of feeling like trying to make a minmax character of a crosclass you never played before as with half the party trying to confuse you and gm giggling as he imagines how big of a rock will ruin all your efforts.

 

I already said everything I wanted to say about Trinity about... ten times by now. We need old link, and we need proper EV. And to hell with WoL and Blessing.

That's how I feel. With the old Trinity we were part of the team and also combat killing enemies were participating. Now most of the time I'm watching the enemy and using EV blessing. This is not so funny, because the new ev is greatly affected by the lag, is running out of energy recount. With the old EV, 1 or 2 shots enough. The old link was all that allowed participate more battles to trinity when the blessing was not necessary. (Sorry for my bad  google English)

[noneuklid]

She is not useless, she is tricky...

 

You see, previous abilities were pretty intuitive to use. You pop Link - you can stop thinking about damage, you put EV - you get energy

 

 

I feel like this post illustrates exactly what I love about Trinity's current set-up and why she needed to be changed.

[GTG3000]

I feel like this post illustrates exactly what I love about Trinity's current set-up and why she needed to be changed.

 

 

Well, to each his own, I guess. I just wanted to say that old setup was feeling more dynamic, and, as such, more fitting for warframe. Sure it can get as easy with current one, but it is going to be tricky still, and not very fun compared to other frames. 

 

 

That's how I feel. With the old Trinity we were part of the team and also combat killing enemies were participating. Now most of the time I'm watching the enemy and using EV blessing. This is not so funny, because the new ev is greatly affected by the lag, is running out of energy recount. With the old EV, 1 or 2 shots enough. The old link was all that allowed participate more battles to trinity when the blessing was not necessary. (Sorry for my bad  google English)

 

Bad google english is okay, we all started somewhere in learning foreign languages.

 

And yeah, that's what I'm talking about - old Trin was dynamic, and felt like part of the team. New trinity is a lot less helpful and fun than that, unless you lilike to sit in the corner, casting Blessing over and over.

[noneuklid]

Well, to each his own, I guess. I just wanted to say that old setup was feeling more dynamic, and, as such, more fitting for warframe. Sure it can get as easy with current one, but it is going to be tricky still, and not very fun compared to other frames. 

 

I've had a blast with her, but I don't think I could change your mind on that issue.  What I might be able to say, though, is that you yourself have already indicated she's more dynamic.  You described her earlier playstyle as (and forgive me for repeating the quote):

 

You pop Link - you can stop thinking about damage, you put EV - you get energy.

 

But now it's more like...

 

Now it's more like "pop Blessing, pop Link, look at your energy bar, find target, pop WoL, put EV, shout at shade, wait for energy, renew link, forget about blessing, get to half health before you remember about it..." 

 

You're more engaged; what you need to be thinking about is much more complex.  This is uncomfortable, but it's the essence of a dynamic powerset.  Powerful but conditional.

 

old Trin ... felt like part of the team. New trinity is a lot less helpful and fun than that, unless you lilike to sit in the corner, casting Blessing over and over.

 

I don't, actually, want to sit in the corner.  That sounds pretty detached, doesn't it?  A far away place where you don't have to engage or worry about things.  That's what old Link was -- a portable 'corner' you could plop down anywhere to disengage yourself from the fight.  Blessing still is, and it should change (but I don't want them to change Blessing before polishing EV and WoL better).

 

If Trinity's going to be the force supporting the team, it shouldn't be because she gets to ignore everything but her allies' health bars.  It should be because she (and her player) are just that awesome.

[GTG3000]

Yeaaaaaah, new complexity is so engaging. About as engaging as QWOP if QWOP was a hardcore platformer.

 

Okay, I may be exagerrating with that, but I hope I get my thought across - Dynamic != complicated. Dynamic is something you just do. Try Rayman, Guitar hero, Blacklight, Warsaw, any good racing game - and you'll see that they aren't that complicated to learn and use, but are very dynamic and hard to master.

 

Old trinity used to be like that - you, of course, had to think when to use her powers, but it didn't require you to look at her energy bar constantly, nor did it require you to keep up two abilities to be a credit to the team. Fun starts at the point when all the controls are already in your spine, and old trinity provided that. New one is way more powerhungry if she wants to be on par with the team, and here we come to the question of Link.

 

Link is far from being a portable corner, and it's far from making you detached. Quite on the contrary, Link, as now does blessing, allowed Trinity to be near her peers in the battle, contributing more than just by keeping everyone health and energy bars full. Link was what players utilized to just be that awesome with this frame, as her stats are quite opposing to being tanky or terribly fast. 

 

Of course, we don't know yet what u10 brings, but removing link and blessing would be the change that kicks Trinity from being by the side of her teammates and into the safe, empty corner where she won't need to be resurrected all the time just to give team a bit of energy.

 

Players won't choose a frame because they are just that awesome. Neither many will choose a support frame that can't bring much of her own (read - not another aoe nuke) to the table of cutting through enemies.

 

I see your point, but I can not agree with you.