Trinity 9.8: Feedback Thread

[noneuklid]

Link was what players utilized to just be that awesome with this frame, as her stats are quite opposing to being tanky or terribly fast. 

 

With Link up, Trinity has an effective health and shield capacity of 900 (each), double that of the "tankiest" frames in the game.  Multiply as normal for Vitality, Vigor, Redirection and Iron Skin.

 

Players won't choose a frame because they are just that awesome. Neither many will choose a support frame that can't bring much of her own (read - not another aoe nuke) to the table of cutting through enemies.

 

Ah; I wasn't aware they'd already removed the teamwide invuln from Blessing.  And Loki.

 

You've a fondness for hyperbole that makes this conversation a bit difficult.

[direpinnacle]

I've had an idea, and I thought I might post it here. When Rhino needed a rebalance, they combined 2 of his abilities and added an extra feature. The same thing might be applicable here.

 

I suggest combining EV and Link. I know, this sounds OP, but stick with me a minute.

 

Remove the damage reflected from link, and add the invulnerability back. Use the old EV damage becomes energy, but make it pulse from Trinity, and instead of dealing damage, it happens when Trinity takes damage (rather, would take damage, because she's invulnerable now).  This seems overpowered, but in order to spread energy around Trinity will have to get shot, which isn't the easiest thing for Trinity do do sometimes: she has no threat ability. This one power would be seem overpowered, but would not be any more powerful than the current combos she could do pre or post changes.

 

The new ability (Energy Link, maybe?) would become her new Ult. Move Blessing to a 2nd or 3rd slot so it can cost less energy, and consider removing the team invulnerability, as others have suggested.

 

At that point there's room for another ability: the devs can decide to add CC or a damage ability like what she has now, or something others have suggested like an armor debuff, or some sort of positional 'well' that heals or adds energy.

 

This seems weird and overpowered, but I think combining Energy Vampire and Link should be given serious consideration, as it could make Trinity seem a lot more fun and would actually make her more situational and support-like.

[Xelchon]

 

I like the changes to trinity but could something be done about that lobster tail? Not asking anything drastic just replacing it with one or two of those other spines that make up her skirt would be superb.

 

Just here to declare again, my hate to the Lobster.

 

I think all of us said a lot of things, shared a lot of experience, and have given good enough ideas/opinions to the devs. Still, I'll have to stick to a total remake for a real "support" warframe, since none of the small changes are enough to repair an entire conceptual error.

 

In any case; if anything, kill the Lobster.

...

Did I mention I hate the Lobster...?

Edited September 12, 2013 by Xelchon

[noneuklid]

I like the idea of the lobster tail... it's both a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bustle'>bustle and an https://www.google.com/search?q=opisthosoma&tbm=isch'>opisthoma.  So she's a spider-nun.  Which is awesome.

 

But I wouldn't mind seeing the texture simplified a little and the coloration handled in a way that doesn't make most color contrasting paint jobs turn her into a tiger-butt.

Edited September 12, 2013 by noneuklid

[GTG3000]

 

 

 

With Link up, Trinity has an effective health and shield capacity of 900 (each), double that of the "tankiest" frames in the game.  Multiply as normal for Vitality, Vigor, Redirection and Iron Skin.

 

 

Ah; I wasn't aware they'd already removed the teamwide invuln from Blessing.  And Loki.

 

You've a fondness for hyperbole that makes this conversation a bit difficult.

 

 

The Tankiest frame has a lot of armour too. Not to mention that Rhino has more than IS to keep him alive. Like, dunno, an ability that disables every enemy in AoE?

 

Trinity only has Link (and blessing, but I just assume it will be nerfed someday) to keep her alive. Sure, there's now WoL and EV to take down entire TWO enemies, but I wouldn't say that it lets her stand near others as the team rushes into a room full of enemies.

 

My point is - Trinity needs Link if DE wants her to be able to survive and perform as other frames do. Of course, normally a support wouldn't get an invulnerability, but normally party isn't consisting of 4 players max with frames, competing with eachother to get in. Trinity needs that invulnerability, or else she will be like Frost. Tell me, how often you see Frost on normal missions?

 

And yeah, I get a bit shouty and hyperbolic when I'm annoyed and practically lost the conversation from the beginning. Scott isn't likely to bring fun back just because everyone who played the frame said that it was better.

Edited September 12, 2013 by GTG3000

[noneuklid]

My point is - Trinity needs Link if DE wants her to be able to survive and perform as other frames do. 

 

Well, that's easy enough -- no she doesn't.  All I need is a single counter-example, and I choose me; I've switched from Shade to Dethcube on my Trinity and mostly dropped all my survival mods except Vigor because I simply don't need external mitigation.

 

In fact, there are still http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqtG6lFyTD4'>too many ways in which Trinity is outperforming other frames.

 

Tell me, how often you see Frost on normal missions?

 

I mostly only see Excalibur, Rhino, Loki, Nova, and Volt on normal missions, because they're the fastest-moving frames.  That doesn't mean I think Vauban, Nyx, and Saryn need invulnerability.

[GTG3000]

 

Well, that's easy enough -- no she doesn't.  All I need is a single counter-example, and I choose me; I've switched from Shade to Dethcube on my Trinity and mostly dropped all my survival mods except Vigor because I simply don't need external mitigation.

 

In fact, there are still

in which Trinity is outperforming other frames.

 

Well, good for you then. We can beat around the bush of loadouts until Scott starts replying on these threads, so I guess I better don't argue them.

 

 

 mostly only see Excalibur, Rhino, Loki, Nova, and Volt on normal missions, because they're the fastest-moving frames.  That doesn't mean I think Vauban, Nyx, and Saryn need invulnerability.

 

Well, that's the point I'm trying to get across - Vauban, Nyx, Saryn, Volt, Nova, Loki, Excal, you name it - they all have abilities to allow them survive huge crowds. Not invulnerability, because why would you need that if you can ragdoll the whole room, make the crowd shoot itself, turn it into mush on the floor, simply evade it, explode it, disarm and avoid it being untargettable or slashdash everything into salad? Those frames have CC and damage to cut through and their survival depends on how quickly you can kill the other guy. Trinity, on the other hand, used to be a support, whose survival didn't depend on killing everyone in the room. That's how a support should be - not thinking about enemies too much, because you should mind your friends. A healer should NOT be the guy who is forced to constantly evade enemies or sit behind on a safe distance. Neither a healer should be the one to bring damage. Link used to promote exactly that, safe for each other ability being somewhat broken.

 

Take, say... Medic class from Killing Floor, a game I would call pretty balanced and with well-defined class roles (it's only my opinion, of course). What does medic have there? He has first - ability to heal teammates at distance and buffs to this ability over one others have, second - improved armour that allows him to tank a lot more damage than half other classes and third - increaced speed, that allows him to reach teammates with healing syringe or just avoid zeds.

 

Compared to that, Trinity used to have ability to ignore mobs, dish out some damage against one mob (which isn't really much compared to AoEs), and restore everyones' health and energy. Now, she has ability to make everyone invincible, ability to share damage (which is bringing her a lot closer to actual tank than Link did), and slightly less comfortable ability to restore power.

 

Trinity isn't a damage or cc frame to have damaging and ccing abilities, and neither should she be compared to them when her abilities are getting nerfed.

[Janzer]

Thoughts from a first time Trinity player.

 

I ran a Trinity to rank 30 for the first time just after the changes. I've been playing since closed beta with Volt, recently picked up and 30 ranked Excalibur Prime and Ash. That being said, playing the other frames helped me get an idea of various styles of gameplay. My gaming background is heavy in FPS and MMOs. I tend to "Lead by Support" in groups. I played Trinity with randoms in all mission types, basic to Tower 3. I also ran Trinity with two other friends, a Frost and a Rhino in basic to Tower 3 levels. Ok, history out of the way...

 

The overall feeling I got from playing Trinity was this: she seems like an extraneous part of a team. I never really felt like anyone cared that I was on the team, no one understood what my WoL or EV was for, and the only expectation from me when recognized was to use Blessing as much as possible. That was my experience in random groups. With friends, I had to "coach" them on what my powers were and how we could best effectively use those. My Rhino friend isn't one to stand around waiting for energy, nor is he one to listen when I say I'm going to hit a target for health. I had to actively follow him around during defense missions and hit EV or WoL on targets, preemptively hitting his targets with WoL/EV in order to have him continue at full speed. This effectively took me away as support for me Frost friend, who is quite damaging in his own right of course. I found the partnership with one team mate to be fun, in that I kept my Rhino and myself full of energy by constantly hitting new targets and getting a pulse....half a second before he destroyed them of course lol!

 

I really enjoy finding creative ways of making things work. That being said, I find WoL amazing at removing a difficult enemy from the playing field while the team focuses on other nuisances, and then having the ability to focus on the big dog that was in stasis.

 

Energy Vampire I found really useful in solo play, where it stuns an enemy and if they're low enough, takes significant damage from them. I also found it useful as a stun in multi, in order to take a second enemy out of the fight, said enemy being wracked over with abdominal pain apparently. Rather than CC, it's more like single high level enemy control, which is actually really nice to have.

 

Stacking WoL and EV on a single enemy is of course fun, granted no one seems to understand that a WoL casted enemy isn't really intended for them to kill, but to regain health. So, I constantly had people try to kill the WoL status'd enemy instead of focusing on the other mobs in the area that were an actual threat.

 

I found Link to be useless.

 

Blessing in my opinion is so overpowered, it's ridiculous. At any time, there is never a need for anyone to die as long as a good energy management Trinity has enough power to just constantly keep Blessing up. Period. Maybe limiting these ultimate powers to one usage per mission, or set them on a timer, would help them from being spammed. Basically, if you have to resort to spamming your ultimate...is that really a challenge? That gets into why are you even playing the game etc. Even playing Tower 3 missions, we had a hard time as a three person team, sure, but I never died as Trinity.

 

I keep hearing that Trinity is a "squishy" character, that's she's weak. I use my Trinity in an up front melee first way, and I believe on my way to Rank 30 I died...once? Twice maybe? Power usage, tactical usage of these powers, rather than just rushing through a mission (and I don't mean to not have fast gameplay) is kind of up to the player...

 

Still, I found Trinity to be a novelty character, other than Blessing which makes her great for high level defense rounds. Don't get me wrong, I love my Trinity and will continue to play her as I love a challenge. Like I said, I love finding ways to make things that other people consider to be a weakness, work very well. But, for most players I don't know if you should make a character something you should have to figure out in order to utilize well in a team enviro. And yeah, I definitely felt like no one gave an F that I was on the team :/

[noir_kero]

My only problem with these changes is EV, the enemy dies too fast to give any energy. I tried combining EV and WoL to give the effected enemy a chance to emit more energy pulse before they die, but its either too costly 25+50 energy for its return energy, or the enemy still dies too fast. 

 

I'm kinda okay with the rest of the abilities. But I think EV is crucial to combo the other abilities.

[GTG3000]

@Janzer

 

We say that she's a squishy character because she IS one. And that's why she used to have Link and still has Blessing now - to keep her alive at the price of needing to constantly manage your power level. 

 

Indeed, it is sad that you had to start playing her only after the nerf, but you see, how fun she can be once you're playing properly, and I trust you can imaging how good she was with old link/EV.

 

As for Blessing, it indeed needs and will be changed sooner or later. The simplest would be to just add cooldowns, that wouldn't let you just relax and enjoy the invincibility your fellow trinity gives you as you rush into the crowd as Rhino or Saryn. This game is rich on panic buttons that allow to be pressed down with a telephone directory, and DE are still not sure how to deal with them, by the looks of it. Link and Overheat were nerfed because they seemed like ones, while being an actually needed part of the gameplay.

[low1991]

My only problem with these changes is EV, the enemy dies too fast to give any energy. I tried combining EV and WoL to give the effected enemy a chance to emit more energy pulse before they die, but its either too costly 25+50 energy for its return energy, or the enemy still dies too fast. 

 

I'm kinda okay with the rest of the abilities. But I think EV is crucial to combo the other abilities.

agreed with ya.

in PUG, as a trinity i normally see other teamates try to kill WoL+EV tagged target. or dies right after WoL+EV is casted

i dont really mind...but dont YOU need energy?!

[Toom1275]

I sorta feel like EV should pulse once per second over the duration, rather than just four times. It needlessly forces the choice between using duration mods to make link and blessing better, to the detriment of EV, or not.

I feel like link could be changed to make MUCH more effective as a support tool if it was possible to link a TEAMMATE's damage to enemies by casting link with the crosshair on that teammate. Rather than Trinity being the only one to benefit from Link, she could cast it from a support position onto a Rhino or something, to let him wade into danger in relative safety, while Trinity herself can keep to the side safely. One thing, though, is that if this is done, the ability to cast Link on herself(by not targeting a teammate) should never be removed. It must remain usable even in solo mode.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Toom1275

[Schattensang]

Trinity 9.8: Feedback Thread

Link: No longer damage immunity changed to damage reduction, now links to several targets at once amplifying the incoming damage. Increased radius search for link targets.

 

So... you gave us some damage reduction, instead of invincibility, huh? Like... you did with Rhino? Well... erm... you changed it for Rhino, because his 150 Armor and 80% damage reduction weren't quite right. You even got rid of Embers Damage reduction, as long as I read your patchnotes correctly.

So... one tiny little question: Why do you think, that having damage reduction at all is a good idea, when you actually get rid of every single one of those abilities?

[low1991]

this is what happen when players are being over-fed with OP abilities and was taken away.

[Benimaru]

Gave it a few days and ran around in my old frame.  Can't say I'm too impressed.

Well of life was a nice change, just not useful enough to give up my slot for something else (currently use sprint)
Link is "meh".  I do not mind the invincibility being removed because one can still just use Blessing if that was the case.  Still not sure how well it works atm.  Can't really tell how 'damaging' it is to the enemy.

Blessing got a frame boost.  Which is nice but not needed.  I liked watching others people's health or have my teammates prepare me to use the ability so I can time when to heal.  I find that aspect fun and part of the challenge.

Energy Vampire was the most disappointing.  Putting that it bugs out now and I can't use it due to it being "in use" for 5 minutes (targets been dead a long time), I can not see myself or teammates huddling around any elite (especially toxic ancients) just to absorb some energy at high level maps. Yeah Trinities and Rhinos might be fine hanging out in a sea of enemies but other frames probably would not.  It would make more sense to have it back the way it was or be an incentive for teammates to kill the target so it dies, explodes, and releases a certain amount of energy to everyone.  The CC component is very nice.

 

Overall.  Can not really see myself playing her till a better change comes around.

[Denvert]

Casting Well of Live and Energy Vampire on one target is actually a good idea to prevent your mob being killed by an AoE ultimate. Yet this would be the only good use I could give Well of Live, as the healing properties do not and will never rival Blessing's healing capabilities.

 

Regarding Energy Vampire itself. I guess most people think that the duration increasement for Energy Vampire is contra productive, but I think, you can relax more and focus other enemies down, while your target is stunned for a long time, providing you and your team with Energy. The old Energy Vampire could support up to 2 guys in a real fight: The Trinity, who casted and fired a few shots to get the energy back and the guy who finally killed the mob via AoE ulti or being trigger happy. Now she has the potential to provide the whole team with energy more effectively, even with lesser mobs.

Trinity was always a frame to deal with the big guys, and she still is, now even better. People just are not patient enough to wait a bit for the energy to pop out of the enemies. Patience is a virtue.

 

As for Link, I fail to see the problem with it. You guys complain about the damage you recieve, yet it is still ridiculously low. You still take almost no damage, you still reflect knockdowns etc, but you now reflect the damage in an AoE. Furthermore, enemies still recieve damage, even if you are invulnerable due to Blessing. Link has just gotten more dangerous for the enemies and less braindead cast and invincible.

 

Blessing is even more overpowered as it was before the change, because the cast comes out real quick now.

 

Overall, Trinity is now a pretty strong frame, more than she was before. And she already was a totally strong frame.

[Creovex]

I have been playing Trinity non-stop since the changes, and overall: I like the changes.  If used right I have had little issues with filling my roll as a healer/support player (especially in nightmare mode).  I think more people should get out of the forums and stop arguing theory and see how it works in the real game environment,

[GTG3000]

this is what happen when players are being over-fed with OP abilities and was taken away.

 

Well jolly, if you play Trinity, you see that Blessing is still there, being OP as hell.

 

@Denvert 

 

Almost no damage? What level of enemies were you fighting against, really? 66% damage mitigation isn't that much if your frame doesn't have tanky stats to begin with, and Trinity isn't tanky at all.

 

@Creovex

 

No one in this thread argues that changes to WoL and EV were much needed ones, they were (and somewhat are). I'm not arguing theory.

[Zakalwe]

Trinity was the one frame I hadn't managed to get dduring closed beta.

 

Since open, I'd put her off, I recently picked her up after glancing at my foundry and noticing I had all the parts...

Built her after the latest patch, and I've been levelling her since yesterday.

-

She feels great, imo. Where Trinity is is where the game feels balanced to me. Yes, there are some boss exploits that need working on, but overall during standard play she does enough to not feel useless, and not enough to make any content too easy.

The main problem I have is needing to explain to players not to shoot the glowing enemies, and to use them for regens. But, once this is established, the team feels very fluid as we move through the mission.

 

Link is a great for damage mitigation to take the edge off, it's not supposed to be tanky, it's supposed to give you a few extra seconds to react. It also nullifies knock downs and snares which is its best feature, imo.

 

Blessing is obviously great.

It's simple... large group of mobs, Link, Cast EV and Wol, dance around killing - hit blessing if you need it.

 

The set up feels fine, and once people being learning the class themselves the use of EV and WoL will become more known.

 

Honestly, I had more fun levelling Triny than I did Nova, by quite a way.
 

[highlifeSW]

My changes for Trin:

WoL and EV get something similar to Novas Null Star.  The shots do some Damage and return Life/energy which is distributed form Trin to the Rest of the Team. So in Solo games you get everything in a full team just a quarter (Maybe some reduction in return energy/life in solo play). This is much better suited for the fast paced gameplay in WF as you can use it while moving.

Blessing should be reduced to 50 energy and just be Healing one Member  of the team. animation should be something like Link with a second of Invulnerability and the target is frozen during this time. People should feel that you do something for them.

Link stays as it is maybe with some more nerfs as you can use it in combination with WoL and EV.

Jeah, this way Trin will miss a 100 energy Ulti so what? This way Trin will fit in with this game and that is all that counts.

[GTG3000]

@Zakalwe

 

With all due respect, she is about as balanced as the average temperature of patients in morgue and infecrtion ward adds up to 36.6

 

Blessing is OP as hell, and Link only works if you put a blessing over it. A few seconds to react are neat, but trinity needs a lot more than that, because she can't just clear the room out in those two seconds.

[MoyuTheTrinity]

WoL some kind of spammy heal that requiers no team input to heal them

EV i like how it is but make it a summonable item you defend and is affected by the first heal and not badly affected by durration

Link make this a team invunerability without the beam connection the team together but instead blessing affects

Blessing remove invincability add hp buff that doubles everyone's hp for 15 seconds base so that way it will last alot longer then the invunerability possibly add armor too like 100 or 150 more

[Zakalwe]

@Zakalwe

 

With all due respect, she is about as balanced as the average temperature of patients in morgue and infecrtion ward adds up to 36.6

 

Blessing is OP as hell, and Link only works if you put a blessing over it. A few seconds to react are neat, but trinity needs a lot more than that, because she can't just clear the room out in those two seconds.

Link seems to work fine for me in most situations in game, I've not used her against super high enemies, but all standard level types it feels good.

Clearing out a room in 2 seconds every few seconds isn't something I'm interested in for the most part.:3

Still, not opposed to changes at all.

 

[GTG3000]

Well, if the room isn't cleaned out in those few seconds, you're likely to just die. Not to mention that all the 'damage' aspect is really still just a bonus.

 

Sure, you'll say, there is Blessing to avert your death!

 

To which I can only reply - well, you could as well haven't bothered with link in the first place. And when Blessing will inevitably be nerfed, what will trinity have?

 

Sure she is feeling balanced now, because she has an ability to save her and let her use every other ability. But Blessing should not be that ability, Link should be. 

[RedFusion]

Why? You have yet to make a logical argument for why Link MUST be the invulnerability skill. Boiled down: Why do you want invincibility to be only 75 energy and not a 100 energy ability? 

 

If it's merely your opinion, great, but it lowers your position to being merely obnoxious when you say "NO NO NO YOU'RE WRONG" rather than constructive and rational.

 

Rhino's invuln skill was changed for what I hope are obvious reasons, but keep in mind it was only 50 energy at the time. Using Rhino last night (and I will be the last person to say I'm amazing at this game or even know what I'm doing all the time) against moderately leveled range enemies on Narcissus, Iron Skin doesn't last long under direct fire and the AoE is a lifesaver, but if more enemies come or there are two large groups of enemies shooting at you across an open area, it won't be like God-Mode invincibility. Yes, I would say that Trinity is a class that needs invincibility, but I don't think that Link absolutely HAS to have that function in its current form of damage-reflection. Having Blessing be that synergistic skill makes the most sense. Otherwise, stand in one place, EV, link, sip a margarita, sunbathe, enjoy the view of Neptune, EV again, Link again, drink the cool-aid. 

 

I haven't found Blessing to be overly broken because it does take pre-emptive use to save teammates, it doesn't last long enough (in my experience. Granted I haven't used duration-increasing mods due to how EV works) to break anything. I can't even tell when it's effect is applied, so I have problems keeping it active when I do have a plethora of energy.